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iro
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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 Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:31 am Post subject: |
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evidence can be used in any way for any argument. you cannot do that kind of editorial control on a forum
and either way the posters do their own kind of peer review when they comment on topics anyway - there is no need to heavily handedly smudge content.
there is no 9/11 received wisdom or stable foundation to draw a criteria from. All you have is competing and usually flawed arguments battling against each other. |
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utopiated
Validated Poster
Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 645
Location: UK Midlands
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Tony - up to your tricks again eh? Did they teach you such underhand methods in the BBC?! I doubt it. I really hate to think where they've been acquired. You used to be such a nice young man.
| iro wrote: | i asked what validated posters were, and not being one did that make the rest of us 'invalid'
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Do you get stamped on the forehead with a big red VALID as well as having a nice new avatar thingy???
Why can't we fill in our own rank?? - I think it's a button flick in the PHPBB settings.  [/b]
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acrobat74
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 836
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| iro wrote: | | evidence can be used in any way for any argument. |
Hmm, maybe so.
There is one sure-fire to differentiate though: the scientific method.
| Quote: | Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.
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| iro wrote: | | you cannot do that kind of editorial control on a forum |
It's quality control.
| iro wrote: | | and either way the posters do their own kind of peer review when they comment on topics anyway |
As long as evidence is presented, yes. Otherwise it usually is about ad homs.
| iro wrote: |
there is no 9/11 received wisdom or stable foundation to draw a criteria from. |
And what is the symmetrical collapse of WTC7 at near free-fall speed again?
| iro wrote: | | All you have is competing and usually flawed arguments battling against each other. |
Well you have more than that: you also have real physical phenomena that you can interpret.
Also, the above sounds like the way science has been progressing throughout the centuries.
_________________
Summary of 9/11 scepticism: http://tinyurl.com/27ngaw6 and www.911summary.com
Off the TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4szU19bQVE
Those who do not think that employment is systemic slavery are either blind or employed. (Nassim Taleb)
www.moneyasdebt.net
http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/ |
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iro
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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you mention the free fall speed and data that can be interpreted.... interpreted by whom and for whom in whom's opinion? if the WTC collapse was so scientifically obvious no one would need to make DVDs about it or campaign on it. Truth is, even most experts (fact) believe the official lie. What does that say about the scientific method.
Truth is, there is no truth, fact is, there are no facts, only opinions. In a hotly contested fringe movement lkike this that previous statement is multiplied even more as at least science has foundations and received wisdom to angle debates off - there are none here. Hence the bitter wars that wage.
Also, if you use the scientific method you will know that objectivity is not truth. It is designed to be anything but. |
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paul wright
Moderator
Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Sunny Bradford, Northern Lights
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| iro wrote: | you mention the free fall speed and data that can be interpreted.... interpreted by whom and for whom in whom's opinion? if the WTC collapse was so scientifically obvious no one would need to make DVDs about it or campaign on it. Truth is, even most experts (fact) believe the official lie. What does that say about the scientific method.
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The experts' truth is what they've been officially told or learned. Nice one, iro. Reality is an artifact than can be bent and shaped to meet the predominant theoretical constructs of the day
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iro
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| paul wright wrote: | | iro wrote: | you mention the free fall speed and data that can be interpreted.... interpreted by whom and for whom in whom's opinion? if the WTC collapse was so scientifically obvious no one would need to make DVDs about it or campaign on it. Truth is, even most experts (fact) believe the official lie. What does that say about the scientific method.
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The experts' truth is what they've been officially told or learned. Nice one, iro. Reality is an artifact than can be bent and shaped to meet the predominant theoretical constructs of the day |
welcome to the postmodern! |
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kbo234
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 2017
Location: Croydon, Surrey
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| iro wrote: | | .... if the WTC collapse was so scientifically obvious no one would need to make DVDs about it or campaign on it. |
It only becomes obvious that the collapse of WTC7 is a controlled demolition when you see the films of the collapse and the data about the collapse. (actually, before I saw it I had never heard of WTC7).
I have an honours degree in physics but the first time I saw this collapse on a documentary film and the information about rate of collapse, although I accepted and could see the good sense of the arguments presented at the time, my mind recoiled from accepting what the narrator, Eric Hufschmidt, was saying. I walked away from the film puzzled and angry.
This just could not possibly be true.
I returned to the issue the next day, watched another film and suddenly, while watching the collapse repeatedly, it just seemed ridiculously obvious to me that WTC7 was indeed a controlled demolition. Every bit of further evidence, every calculation, I have seen since that day only confirms that this is so.
The science is absolutely cut and dried. The collapse (and those of WTC's 1 and 2) is definitely a controlled demolition. The OCT conflicts impossibly with the physical evidence.....applying the Laws of conservation of energy and momentum provides full proof of this.......never mind all the other evidence, including witness testimonies that exist on these matters.
The reason for the DVD's is that the mainstream media lie about these issues and, as much as possible, ignore them. The public don't get to see the full evidence so someone else has to put it together and present it.
These films present scientific facts and they are that.....facts......not baseless opinion. I'm making an obvious point here because you seem to be implying that the arguments presented by scholars for 9/11 truth (for instance) are no better and no more scientific than the governments lying propaganda and distortions.
If you think this your view is a false one. The science of 9/11 truth is solid and unchallengeable in a fair debate.
The government narrative can be successfully put to the public because they omit, distort and lie about the facts and their voice, for most people, is the only one that gets heard.
| iro wrote: |
Truth is, there is no truth, fact is, there are no facts, only opinions. In a hotly contested fringe movement lkike this that previous statement is multiplied even more as at least science has foundations and received wisdom to angle debates off - there are none here. Hence the bitter wars that wage. |
Rubbish.
| iro wrote: |
Also, if you use the scientific method you will know that objectivity is not truth. It is designed to be anything but. |
When you write about science you say things that are so incoherent that they are meaningless.
Are you working from your own self-created tautology that......
........what is subjective is true?........
It is only by assuming that you are coming from this position that I can make any real sense of your whole post at all.
If so.......this is a false position. |
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iro
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
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false in your opinion, that is my point.
there is no truth in what you say if i do not believe it, and vice versa, multiplied by 6.4 billion |
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iro
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:09 am Post subject: |
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you have an honours degree i physics, congratulations for doing that. Did you never come across relativism whilst doing that? ... or the infinite regress of justification?
..turtles all the way down?
im taking a postmodern point of view here, an anti-foundationalist stance, as after all this movement is anti-foundational in nature, even if it hasn't realised it yet.
What you need to do is stop reading between my words and just read the words and think them over. Its fine if you dont agree, thats my point in actuality - you shouldnt agree with me. But 99% of what you wrote in response to my post is not related to the simple points i made.
9/11 truth is not factual, its an assembly of opinions, deductions based on available evidence and claims. There is probably more fact than in the officla story, which is really funny as it is tragic, but to think the 9/11 truth argument, or any package of it in its disparate forms is factual and watertight is a massive naivete. |
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kbo234
Validated Poster
Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 2017
Location: Croydon, Surrey
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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It would seen that 'postmodernism' renders meaning meaningless?
I disagree with and object to your whole presentation.
There is such a thing as truth. The words 'truth' and 'belief' mean different things.
Quote: "there is no truth in what you say if i do not believe it, and vice versa, multiplied by 6.4 billion".
Mmm....enough already. |
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iro
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: |
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i just caught your reply before i knock off for the night... fair enough, sometimes the questioning of truth itself is too much for a person to bother with. 'Enough already' is the same defence mechanism the man on the street uses when you shove a copy of loose change in his hand.
questioning the nature of truth itself is the whole point of a movement like this. Many people are not ready for that, instead prepared to question aspects of received truth whilst accepting the majority of the system they inherit (whilst hating it for being manipulative and slavish)
truth is the question. postmodernism just concludes that ther is no answer. I am not a postmodernist, but its arguments are very helpful is you get a basic handle on them.
hey... at least you looked it up!
anyway, back to validated posters!  |
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TonyGosling
Editor
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Posts: 18335
Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
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iro
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:28 am Post subject: |
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holding on to a truth that you believe in is egocentric.
accepting the possibility that your truth (and we all have them) might be contested or wrong is not egocentric, its a very progressive state of mind and there is nothing elite about it
I accept most people on here have a fixed concept of truth, a Platonic mindset - just like the neoconservatives and the Christian Right, but i wont be burned at the stake for saying I want no part in that, in fact, ill just nudge and wink and wait a little up the road for you to catch me up... in an egotistical way. |
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kbo234
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 2017
Location: Croydon, Surrey
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| iro wrote: | | there is no truth in what you say if i do not believe it, and vice versa, multiplied by 6.4 billion |
'Enough already' was only a defence mechanism at work in the sense that I do not want to waste my time arguing against a position that is so obviously wrong. If you cannot see this let me again try once and once only:
When Gallileo said that the world was round and everyone else on earth who had a view on the matter believed it to be flat........did this universal disagreement to his position make him wrong?
.....Yes or no? |
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kbo234
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Location: Croydon, Surrey
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Actually it was not a flat earth issue was it....it was about the earth going round the sun.....but the same argument applies. Was what he said untrue just because everyone else disagreed with him? |
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landless peasant
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 137
Location: southend essex
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Your talking about truth in a philosophical sense ie: truth is illusion ? There are levels of truth. I guess your right its egotistical but all thought is.. |
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iro
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| landless peasant wrote: | | Your talking about truth in a philosophical sense ie: truth is illusion ? There are levels of truth. I guess your right its egotistical but all thought is.. |
bang!
by jove he gets it. |
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iro
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Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 376
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| kbo234 wrote: |
When Gallileo said that the world was round and everyone else on earth who had a view on the matter believed it to be flat........did this universal disagreement to his position make him wrong?
.....Yes or no? |
he is right for now, but can you say with 100% certainty that in 500 years people wont be laughing at us for thinking what we think today about just about everything we take as 'truth' or 'fact' just like we laugh at the overused and annoying parable of the flat earthers?
you cant. My position is i just see that and whilst i still hold truths i accept they are not cast in stone. How can you live life stuck to rocks of belief and truth? Religion set this silly universal truth nonsense, Plato forged it in the philosophical sense, and i think its time to cast that away. How can you be a truthseeker if you dont even know what you are looking for?
Truth changes, evolves. It never stands still, only our perceptions change relative to what we know, what we can know and what we try to understand based on our limits and our viewpoint. That doesnt mean we have to look at a teacup and say its a mass of moving particles arranged in a cylindrical shape that suggests a presence of hot liquid material that is transient.. blah blah... but it does mean there is a need to observe and ponder deeper truths about existence, thought, meaning ... these are the pilars of whats going on in peoples minds whether they accept it, understand it or not. |
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landless peasant
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Location: southend essex
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Welcome to Epistemology forum people....  |
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Disco_Destroyer
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 6342
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| iro wrote: | | landless peasant wrote: | | Your talking about truth in a philosophical sense ie: truth is illusion ? There are levels of truth. I guess your right its egotistical but all thought is.. |
bang!
by jove he gets it. |
I agree our Truth is as individual as we are, we can only control what our mind persieves on our own individual journey.
We'll likely never solve 9/11, (without some change in global thinking perhaps) but what each and everyone of us has finally come to realise on this board, is that we're being roylally shafted by the how George Carlin puts it 'big red white and blue d*ck'. I think that equally applies to our own flag as much as the Stars and Stripes.
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Help, help, I'm being repressed!'
“The more you tighten your grip, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers.”
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| iro wrote: | | landless peasant wrote: | | Your talking about truth in a philosophical sense ie: truth is illusion ? There are levels of truth. I guess your right its egotistical but all thought is.. |
bang!
by jove he gets it. |
All Truth is a shadow except the last, except the utmost; yet every Truth is true in its kind. It is substance in its own place, though it be but a shadow in another place (for it is but a reflection from an intenser substance); and the shadow is a true shadow, as the substance is a true substance.
Isaac Penington, a 17th century Quaker |
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Disco_Destroyer
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 6342
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | persieves |
perceives*
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!'
“The more you tighten your grip, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers.”
www.myspace.com/disco_destroyer |
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acrobat74
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 836
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| Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| xmasdale wrote: |
All Truth is a shadow except the last, except the utmost; yet every Truth is true in its kind. It is substance in its own place, though it be but a shadow in another place (for it is but a reflection from an intenser substance); and the shadow is a true shadow, as the substance is a true substance.
Isaac Penington, a 17th century Quaker |
Exactly, and that's what Plato was talking about: 'we see through a mirror dimly'.
But before we disappear up our own arses debating the nature of reality, let's just stick to physical laws.
| iro wrote: | | Truth is, even most experts (fact) believe the official lie. What does that say about the scientific method. |
lol this speaks volumes about the human nature, not the scientific method.
Unless you consider that Giordano Bruno or Nicolaus Copernicus sided with the 'most experts'.
_________________
Summary of 9/11 scepticism: http://tinyurl.com/27ngaw6 and www.911summary.com
Off the TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4szU19bQVE
Those who do not think that employment is systemic slavery are either blind or employed. (Nassim Taleb)
www.moneyasdebt.net
http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/ |
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utopiated
Validated Poster
Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 645
Location: UK Midlands
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| Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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It;s interesting that US/911 Journalist Sander Hicks declared at the start of one of his better presentations a few years back that:
"9/11 marked the death of postmodernism..."
However this is only true if you equate the postmodern view of reality with inaction. Which if you are an ivory tower academic you probably do [subtle dig] but this doesn't have to be the case of course.
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iro
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Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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Truth rekindled with a feckless whore.
| I wrote: | | I think the twin towers were blown to kingdom come. That's my truth. |
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The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
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