Have you an example or two from the gospels (not Revelations, which is, it is hard to disagree, pretty 'crazy')
I have had little problem with the four gospels providing they are not taken too literally.
I Timothy 6: 1-5, always struck me as a fair bit of Objectivist folderol. Kind of a 'Know thy place, slaves' vibe.
Matthew 10: 30-40 ; I realize it's not really out of step with the whole "Love God more than anything else" number, but really... "To hell with your family, and if not, to hell with you"? 40 especially seems designed to, if nothing else, establish the church as the primary means of reaching God.
And from the Crazy Jesus files...
Mark 11: 12-14, 20-21. Jesus finds a fig tree. A fig tree out of season. He checks it for fruit. It has none. He tells it to wither for the offense. It does.
....
Good thing he was a carpenter instead of a farmer... _________________ "What about a dance club that only let in deaf people? It would really only need flashing lights, so they'd save a lot of money on music." - Dresden Codak
I Timothy 6: 1-5, always struck me as a fair bit of Objectivist folderol. Kind of a 'Know thy place, slaves' vibe.
Matthew 10: 30-40 ; I realize it's not really out of step with the whole "Love God more than anything else" number, but really... "To hell with your family, and if not, to hell with you"? 40 especially seems designed to, if nothing else, establish the church as the primary means of reaching God.
Verses need to be read in context. In all cases here you overlook the context.
ITim 6:1-5 - Really only verse 1 to 2 talks about slaves honouring masters. Slavery did not have the conotations it has now. A slave or servant was part of a household, often by choice. The following verses are a warning to false teachers.
Matthew 10:30-40 is not really saying To hell with your family, and if not, to hell with you"? It is talking about a scenario when your family rejects you because you faith in Christ. It says - Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Now the following verse makes more sense.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
It means that you are not to give in to pressure from family when they turn on you.
This is not a general command to turn down family commitments as other scriptures tell believes to care for their own family. Like 1Timothy 5:8.
Verse forty does not mention the church. It follows from Jesus talking about losing and forsaking ourselves to find Him. But then he turns it around and says but then you will be recieved by those who have received Him.
I find that "you've taken it out of context" is usually code for "I disagree with your assessment because I don't like it". That seems to be the case here. _________________ "What about a dance club that only let in deaf people? It would really only need flashing lights, so they'd save a lot of money on music." - Dresden Codak
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 1959 Location: South London
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject:
TmcMistress wrote:
ITim 6:1-5 - Really only verse 1 to 2 talks about slaves honouring masters. Slavery did not have the conotations it has now. A slave or servant was part of a household, often by choice. The following verses are a warning to false teachers.
I suspect there is a lot of politically motivated choice of words made in translation of the original New Testament Greek, in order to avoid challenging the practice of slavery. But the fact is St Paul was writing in the context of the Roman Empire whose economy was built on slavery and whose laws upheld that institution. It was illegal for a slave to run away from his/her master/mistress and the penalties for so doing were severe: including death. The fact that some versions of the Bible translate the word as "servant" does not make the law any less severe, nor the institution of slavery any more bearable for the slaves, though it does serve to disguise the shortcomings of Paul's attitude.
If you read Paul's epistle to Philemon you will see it is a plea to a slave-master to take back his run-away slave, Onesimus, and to treat him kindly. No doubt there have always been slave-masters who have sought to treat their slaves kindly though if Pilemon had been one why would his slave have run away?
Only legal prohibition of slavery could set most slaves free from institutionalised cruelty. Nowhere in Paul's writings does he suggest he was in favour of abolition.
Let's not kid ourselves that because he wrote very movingly about the Christian message of faith, hope and love, he was right about everything. He was a child of his time like everyone else.
As a Quaker I have no problem with the statement released by Quakers in 1822:
"The arguments of the Christian, like the religion from which they are derived, are plain and simple, but they are in themselves invincible. The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is a system of peace, of love, of mercy, and of good-will. The slave trade is a system of fraud and rapine, of violence and cruelty... That which is morally wrong cannot be politically right."
I do have a problem with St Paul's attitude, however.
Don't be afraid to challenge it, TMCMistress. Am I not right in thinking you are descended from people who were forcibly seized in Africa and deported to the New World in hellish conditions where they were sold into slavery? Some may have become house-slaves and treated much as servants by kindly masters, but they were still legally in bondage, and what about their brothers and sisters out in the fields of hard labour under the lash?
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 1959 Location: South London
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:46 pm Post subject:
TmcMistress wrote:
when I suggested to him that this likely means the idea of the Rapture was invented and inserted by early church leaders as a means of creating false divisions / a fake sense of empowerment, etc., he refused to even listen.
Forgive my laughter, but that is recognition of a phenomenon we all experience when presenting to friends ideas they don't want to look at. I have friends who now refuse to speak to me because I said:
"In my experience only people who refuse to look at the evidence of 9/11 maintain that GWB is telling the truth about it."
It seems that reading The Guardian religiously every day tends to narrow the mind; it's perhaps a bit like reading the Bible religiously every day or even Socialist Worker.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 1959 Location: South London
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject:
petros wrote:
Was Jesus even born on the 25th December? It doesn't say it in the bible.
No! Is the church still seriously maintaining that he was? I don't think so. But if the Queen is alowed to have an official birthday which is different from her real one, why not Jesus too?
My next-door neigbours, being Seventh Day Adventists, don't celebrate Christmas because, they maintain, it is a pagan festival which the church took over. I point out that Easter was the Pagan spring festival and All Saints Day the pagan autumn festival, but somehow they don't apply the same logic there.
The problem is that attitudes which were at one time progressive get fossilised, even worshipped, and people don't understand the wealth of wisdom to be found in myth. They should read their Carl Gustav Jung in my opinion.
I find that "you've taken it out of context" is usually code for "I disagree with your assessment because I don't like it". That seems to be the case here.
Interesting posts. Thank you.
Saying that 'something is code' is usually code for "I disagree with your assesment because I am a cynical of your views".
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 1959 Location: South London
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject:
I think it's helpful to remember, amidst all the adulation of the English abolitionists, the so-called Clapham Set, that the pressure for abolition came principally from the slaves themselves. Nigerian ex-slave Olaudah Equiano gets remembered by some in the UK but few others.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 486 Location: Manchester
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:04 pm Post subject:
Did anyone catch this Ch4 documentary on Christmas day or the day after? Its by a theologian from Oxford Brookes and we tend to like people from there.
Along with Assassins Creed and Zeitgeist, it seems a move toward acknowledging/fabricating pagan aspects of Christian dogma is afoot. _________________ The Peoples United Collective TPUC.ORG
I think it's helpful to remember, amidst all the adulation of the English abolitionists, the so-called Clapham Set, that the pressure for abolition came principally from the slaves themselves. Nigerian ex-slave Olaudah Equiano gets remembered by some in the UK but few others.
Slavery was a major problem back in the old Bible days too. Moses had bit of help in Exodus setting the slaves free. Aaron gets a mention. Oh, and God lent a hand.
After several years of travels and trading, Equiano traveled to London and became involved in the abolitionist movement. The movement had been particularly strong amongst Quakers, but was by now non-denominational. Equiano himself was broadly Methodist, having been influenced by George Whitefield's evangelism in the New World.
This confirms the sentiments of my previous post that it Christianity was the defining force that brought an end to slavery. So Thank you for your help with that. I am reading about Whitefield's life at the moment.
Did anyone catch this Ch4 documentary on Christmas day or the day after? Its by a theologian from Oxford Brookes and we tend to like people from there.
The Hidden Story of Jesus
In addition is this shorter American piece on a Christian author Tom Harpur of a recent book called 'The Pagan Christ'
pt 1 of 5
Tom Harpur talks about God or a divine spark in all of us. He has therefore embraced a form of pantheism. More later.
Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH and the life" John 14:6. If this forum is a place where Jesus Christ is rejected then it rejects the TRUTH he offers.
Why not buy a Bible and read the gospels yourself with an open mind rather than listening to kooks and crude propaganda.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject:
These are the sort of nutters that bring Jesus Christ into disrepute
I had to make a human sacrifice - warlord
January 16 2008 at 11:11AM
Monrovia - An evangelical pastor described the atrocities he and his men committed during the Liberian civil war, including magical rituals that involved slaughtering children and eating their hearts.
Joshua Milton Blahyi spared no details on Tuesday as he told Liberia's Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) of his years with one of the most feared militias of the war.
Dressed in an immaculate suit, Blahyi, 37, said it was for the TRC to decide whether he should be given an amnesty or prosecuted.
Have you an example or two from the gospels (not Revelations, which is, it is hard to disagree, pretty 'crazy')
I have had little problem with the four gospels providing they are not taken too literally.
I Timothy 6: 1-5, always struck me as a fair bit of Objectivist folderol. Kind of a 'Know thy place, slaves' vibe.
Matthew 10: 30-40 ; I realize it's not really out of step with the whole "Love God more than anything else" number, but really... "To hell with your family, and if not, to hell with you"? 40 especially seems designed to, if nothing else, establish the church as the primary means of reaching God.
And from the Crazy Jesus files...
Mark 11: 12-14, 20-21. Jesus finds a fig tree. A fig tree out of season. He checks it for fruit. It has none. He tells it to wither for the offense. It does.
....
Good thing he was a carpenter instead of a farmer...
You seem well versed in the scriptures for a nonbeliever. _________________ Belief is the Enemy of Truth www.dissential.com
I used to be a 'believer', at least in Christianity anyway;
I love studying theology, though admittedly my knowledge is more limited than it could be;
I believe in understanding things that you're going to criticize. I have no more tolerance for people that criticize Christianity without understanding it than I do Christians that have barely so much as read their own book, let alone thought about it;
and I am a believer of sorts, just not in this. _________________ "What about a dance club that only let in deaf people? It would really only need flashing lights, so they'd save a lot of money on music." - Dresden Codak
What a strange thread! Understandable I suppose since Zeitgeist threw down the gauntlet.
I have nothing but admiration for Quakers but even you are still subject to Constantine's mish-mash propaganda. Do you never wonder about the total eradication of the Gnostics message, fr instance?
There is a remarkable similarity here with all that western govts are presently doing towards burying the reality of 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid bombings.
And now slavery rears its ugly head. Do you not think we are all slaves to a book cobbled together by priesthoods over a few thousand years?
The reality is that we all have God within us - each and every one of us. There is no external entity for any of us to blame or praise. It is up to each of us to realise the divine spark we are all born with.
"Be the change you wish to see in the world" - written by a notable and very 'spiritual' Hindu...who also said when asked what he thought of western 'civilisation', "I think it would be a very good idea"
Shibboleths blind us to reality. Ditch the priesthoods - all of them. They are not your friends. _________________ "We will lead every revolution against us!" - attrib: Theodor Herzl
"Timely Demise to All Oppressors - at their Convenience!" - 'Interesting Times', Terry Pratchett
What a strange thread! Understandable I suppose since Zeitgeist threw down the gauntlet.
I have nothing but admiration for Quakers but even you are still subject to Constantine's mish-mash propaganda. Do you never wonder about the total eradication of the Gnostics message, fr instance?
There is a remarkable similarity here with all that western govts are presently doing towards burying the reality of 9/11, 7/7 and the Madrid bombings.
And now slavery rears its ugly head. Do you not think we are all slaves to a book cobbled together by priesthoods over a few thousand years?
The reality is that we all have God within us - each and every one of us. There is no external entity for any of us to blame or praise. It is up to each of us to realise the divine spark we are all born with.
"Be the change you wish to see in the world" - written by a notable and very 'spiritual' Hindu...who also said when asked what he thought of western 'civilisation', "I think it would be a very good idea"
Shibboleths blind us to reality. Ditch the priesthoods - all of them. They are not your friends.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:33 am Post subject:
Quote:
How is it that we have drifted away from being an informed, active, knowledgeable, and dedicated group of highly motivated Christian patriots to a group of impotent and anemic sheep?
WHAT'S WITH ALL THESE CLUELESS CHRISTIANS?
By Pastor Chuck Baldwin - February 12, 2008 - NewsWithViews.com
What's with all these clueless Christians? How is it that people who have the benefit of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the warning and insight of the Sacred Scriptures--not to mention a rich Christian heritage here in America--can be so ignorant, blind, and naïve? Yes, the majority of evangelical Christians seem to be all of the above. The problem has passed being serious: it is catastrophic!
How is it that we have drifted away from being an informed, active, knowledgeable, and dedicated group of highly motivated Christian patriots to a group of impotent and anemic sheep? Our Christian forebears must be turning over in their graves, because we are in the process of squandering the greatest human sacrifice--save that of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ--ever made: the sacrifice of America's Founding Fathers.
The problem is manifold, of course. For the most part, our pastors have become glorified politicians and business executives. As attorneys are not schooled in the Constitution, today's ministers are not schooled in the Scriptures. They are motivational speakers, salesmen, and business managers. The Bible is only used as a side reference, if at all. It is not taught or preached literally. Pastors go through the Bible the way people go through a salad bar: gleaning a few sweet-tasting morsels and rejecting everything that appears the least bit distasteful.............................
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: The Matrix Bible Study
The Matrix Bible Study
Overview
The Matrix trilogy has been hailed as a triumph in filmmaking, breaking ground for both technical achievements and for weaving a rich tapestry of philosophy, religion, and pop culture with mass-market appeal. The films raise challenging moral and philosophical questions - all while captivating audiences with thrilling battles of good versus evil, man versus machine, and creator versus the created.
What do these films say about the nature of self-knowledge, faith, love, reality, free will, and destiny? This discussion guide will help you examine these issues and discuss the movie from a biblical perspective.
To believe in God you do not have to go to church you do not have to donate money and you do not have to perform any sort of ritual.
Please try and seperate your faith from membership of a private business like supporting a football team.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with religion other than people who highjack it to enrich themselves.
Please make that distinction.
Dont you see that Dawkins and zeitgeist and all the other anti God things and people out there are simply trying to bring you into their religion.
Communism was and still is in some countries a religion
Zionism is a religion.
Devil worship is a religion as practiced by george Bush and others.
So choose which religion you want to be part of. A good kind peaceful religion preeching love and charity and forgiveness.
or a murdering evil religion as practiced by Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Dawkins, Darwin.
You choose.
top post
Good to see intelligent discourse prevail. "Top Post". Anyway to the others who defend religion. I do not doubt the exsistence of Jesus. It is the written word that has failed the truth. The Bible has got mans hands all over it. I think they have used Christ to their own ends. I would say they have attached all the "Sun" theolgy to him by design. The New World Order has been around for thousands of years. It would make sense for them to to write history this way to further the cause. And the NWO of today would see the same malnipulation of the "faithful" and use it to their own end.
Hi Stelios. How are you doing?
i was in total agreement with his post!..iam i not allowed to have this opinion?.
Keep your ignorant comments to yourself.
Joined: 18 Apr 2006 Posts: 1158 Location: South Essex
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject:
Having re-read some of this thread,and after the time since it was first posted around the 'Zeitgeist' release period,I know David was well affected by his inside knowledge beforehand at what was going on inside the church in recent years.
I was greatly affected by the religious aspect in Zeitgeist,having parents heavily involved in the Christian church for 30 odd years,and since their passing,although they were "good people", I thought they may have wasted their lives on yet another lie.
Time,the great healer: In the months since I have come to realise that although the church has been usurped over the centuries,and continues to be so with the Alpha course et al,the stated aims of the NWO to do away with all established religions,and replacing them with new age pantheism makes me recoil in horror.
Much has been said how the religions create the problems,I disagree
they are used as the excuse for conflict,not the root case of it.
Sorry if that was a bit simplistic,and maybe already stated on here, I just thought I'd get it off my chest as it were.
N
uselesseater wrote:
I think people missinterpret Zeitgeist.
It sure outlines the astro theology in scripture. The question is what conclusion you draw from that.
I don't think you can make any conclusions on the existence of God from it.
I don't think you can draw any conclusions about Jesus from it.
What I conclude from it is that the cannon of scripture has these references worked into it as CHristianity became an esablishment religion.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject:
uselesseater wrote:
I think people missinterpret Zeitgeist..........
.......What I conclude from it is that the cannon of scripture has these references worked into it as Christianity became an establishment religion.
I have no doubt that many Christians will return to some kind of pre-Constantine faith, in our lifetimes.
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:33 am Post subject:
TonyGosling wrote:
I have no doubt that many Christians will return to some kind of pre-Constantine faith, in our lifetimes.
Christianity is becoming an anti-establishment faith again........
Yes.....and the sooner the better.
We need to forget about our treacherous churches (and have they ever been any different) and stand behind the message and example of Christ. If society were rid of its (now oligarchical) moneylenders, if the taking of oaths (particularly oaths of loyalty to secretive organisations) was forbidden, if society were constructed of commuities that had total power over their own affairs....that would be a pretty good start.
OK - its naughty posting it here - but quite amusing!! _________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
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