Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Bobby Fischer was a 9/11 Truther.
Here's an article about chess genius Bobby Fischer, who died this week. He was a man who just could not fit in....with an IQ in the 180's he perhaps understood a little too much about conflict.
This article reveals he was a 9/11 Truther, though it (unsurprisingly) mocks and pities him regarding this and much else.
Hmmm. Poor guy.
Prodigy and tragedy: how America lost a true genius
Last week Bobby Fischer died in Reykjavik, scene of his greatest triumph. Here Ronan Bennett, acclaimed author of the recent chess thriller Zugzwang, recalls the brilliance and eccentricity of the player who toppled the Soviet chess kings
Sunday January 20, 2008
The Observer
Viewed from the distance of half of a century, and with all the knowledge of the extraordinary and unhappy path he was to beat through life, the pictures are heartbreaking. We are always moved by concentration and tension in children. And here is Bobby Fischer in a shirt that looks like it could be his pyjama top, biting his nails as he contemplates the arrangement of chessmen before him. He is playing in his first masters' event, in New York, the Lessing J. Rosenwald tournament of 1956, and he is thirteen years old. He does not win - older, more experienced and cunning heads prevail: the Polish-born Samuel Reshevsky, a child prodigy himself long ago, now nearing the end of his career, takes first place - but Fischer scores such a dazzling triumph in his game against Donald Byrne that his name is made.
Article continues
Like the teenage David Beckham's spectacular 60-yard lob over the hapless Wimbledon goalkeeper, the win announces the arrival of a very special talent. Thousands of miles away, the game brought Fischer to the attention of the world's only chess superpower. Chess had been systematically encouraged by the Bolsheviks after the October Revolution, and by the late 1950s the St Petersburg-born engineer Mikhail Botvinnik was world champion and his nearest rivals - Bronstein, Smyslov, Tal and Petrosian - were all Soviet citizens. This was the home of top-flight chess, and in chess if you want to get better you have to play against the very best.
So it was to Moscow, two years after his astonishing win against Byrne, that Fischer went in search of competition. Still only fifteen but now the US champion, he arrived with his older sister, Joan. At the central chess club he played game after game. Tigran Petrosian, who was to become world champion in 1963, recalled being summoned to the club 'to cope with a youth who was beating the Moscow masters at lightning chess'. Most 15-year-olds, however precocious their talent or however badly brought up, know something of politeness and form, not to say respect. Not Fischer. Bobby Fischer was wilfulness embodied. He had come to the Soviet Union to play only the greatest. Petrosian was not enough. He wanted to play Botvinnik himself. It didn't happen and Fischer left, as the Soviet grandmaster Yuri Averbakh put it, 'bearing a grudge against our country and our grandmasters'.
To be world champion of chess requires the aspirant to put everything else to one side. When a tournament organiser took the interwar megastars Alekhine and Capablanca to the theatre one night, the former, he recalled, did not once lift his eyes from his portable set while the latter didn't take his eyes off the chorus girls. No prizes for guessing who won their 1927 world championship contest.
Think what it must have taken for Fischer, a 15-year-old resident of Brooklyn in 1958 at the height of the Cold War, to get to Moscow, from the sheer outrageousness of the idea to the gathering of the financial resources (Fischer's broken family was not well off). And then to expect - to presume - that the very greatest would be waiting to play with him on arrival. We can admire the pluck of the teenager, but in our bones we know such boldness does not bode well for the future.
His mother must have hoped her son would grow up, would mature, and learn to integrate his ambition into a wider, deeper hinterland. It never happened. Fischer's continued successes had the effect of reinforcing the egotistical child in him. How could they not? At his first major international tournament at Portoroz he became the youngest grandmaster ever, and the youngest candidate for the world title. His self-belief was already unshakable.
When he decided he no longer needed to go to school, his mother and sister were unable to persuade him to continue his studies. In this sense Fischer could have been the embodiment of Stefan Zweig's fictional chess champion Czentovic, ignorant of everything but how to move, with exceptional beauty and ferocious aggression, carved boxwood and ebony pieces around a chequered board of sixty-four squares. Fischer was monomaniacally fixated on chess. The only other thing that interested him was politics, and in this his ignorance was so startling, bombastic and bigoted that in the end, paranoid and delusional, bloated and dishevelled, his powers gone, he was reduced to ranting on late-night radio phone-ins about the worldwide Jewish conspiracy and Zionist plots to destroy the World Trade Centre (the irony, of course, is that Fischer was himself born Jewish).
But let us go back to before the fall: Yugoslavia, September 1959, the next step in the contender's ascent to the summit. Lanky and long-faced, dressed in a baggy woollen jumper, he sits with the other players - older, suited and wary, about to fight for the right to challenge Botvinnik - bored out of his head as the opening speeches go on and on. He has no interests, no small talk and he cannot distinguish between opponents and enemies. He's getting older, but he isn't growing up. Everything is black and white. In chess, this is normal (the chess that Fischer plays is uncompromising). In life, it is a recipe for disaster.
In Yugoslavia, Fischer does not qualify for the right to play for the crown - that goes to the Latvian wizard Mikhail Tal, only a few years Fischer's senior. Fischer bursts into tears when he loses. Nothing in his background has prepared him for defeat. His loathing of Soviet players increases. Defeat followed again in Curaçao, in the next world championship cycle three years later. Under scrutiny at the top level, his play is revealed to have flaws: a narrow opening repertoire, a certain carelessness in simple positions, a tendency to overestimate his position, failings, surely, born from the untrammelled self-belief he was allowed to develop as a child. Fischer is still counted among the very best, but he is not invincible.
Unable to face up to his own chess mortality, the child in Fischer reasserted itself. He accused the Soviet players of conspiring to prevent him from winning the title, and he declared he would not participate in any such events in the future. He railed against the iniquities of the Soviet domination of chess, and that won him admirers, including Henry Kissinger.
After Curaçao, Bobby Fischer dropped out of top-flight international chess in Europe for five years. During this time he became a Seventh Day Adventist . In 1967 he reappeared at Sousse, Tunisia, to take part in the world championship cycle and quickly became the tournament leader. But by now his habit of making outrageous demands of the organisers was alienating even his admirers. The organisers went a long way to try to accommodate him, but in the end he withdrew, 'nursing', as Averbakh, put it, 'a grudge against the whole world'. Another chance to challenge for the title was thrown away.
By the time a chess player reaches forty he is considered over the hill. In 1969, when Boris Spassky took the championship from Petrosian, Fischer was still only 26. But that meant he would be almost thirty by the time the title next came up for grabs. It did not leave long to dominate the game, not in the way that Lasker had, or Alekhine or Botvinnik. The boy who beat Donald Byrne was now a man at the height of his powers and the question was: would he compete? That he was the best of the rest was not in doubt. In a series of individual matches, he trounced first Taimanov by the staggering score of 6-0, then Larsen, also 6-0, and finally Petrosian, 6-2. Back in Moscow, the Soviet authorities began to worry.
The Soviet leadership was not alone in seeing in the coming contest, in Reykjavik in 1972, a larger and more politically charged clash. In the West, Fischer was now portrayed as the solitary hero against the machine, the free-thinking individualist against the mindless conformity represented by Spassky. The fact that Spassky was urbane, polite and friendly, where Fischer was arrogant and boorish, was conveniently overlooked. Even before the first move had been made, Fischer played an extraordinary game of brinkmanship, making ever more shameful demands of the organisers. In the end, it took a phone call from Kissinger himself, then Secretary of State to Nixon, to persuade Fischer to sit down at the board. Over twenty-two games, Fischer demonstrated his superiority. His chess had matured. He had achieved his ambition.
Reykjavik 1972 sparked a worldwide explosion of interest in chess. Fischer was spoken of as the greatest ever. It should have been the beginning of a long reign at the top.
Instead Fischer, increasingly wayward and angry, withdrew from chess. He became a recluse in something of the Howard Hughes mould, except for the money. Hughes was a rich man, Fischer was not. He could have capitalised on his fame, but who wanted to sponsor so unpredictable a man? His money problems grew, his paranoia got worse. In 1981 he was arrested in Pasadena and spent a few days in jail, about which he wrote a pamphlet with the eerie, Cold War propaganda-like title: 'I Was Tortured In The Pasadena Jailhouse'. For most of the 1980s no one but those few who sheltered him knew where he was or what he was doing.
Lured by the prospect of a big payday, Fischer emerged from obscurity to play a match against Spassky to mark the 20th anniversary of Reykjavik. The man himself was older and sadder, but no wiser. By playing part of the match in Belgrade, Fischer broke US sanctions against Milosevic's Serbia. He disappeared after the match, money in hand, pursued by his own government, and was eventually found in Japan, to be imprisoned on immigration charges while the Americans sought his extradition. When he was released, on the intervention of the Icelandic government, chess fans saw a dishevelled, scraggly-haired, swollen figure.
In their own way, the pictures were just as heartbreaking as those from the Rosenwald tournament 51 years ago.
A chess player like Bobby Fischer would have recognized the biggest game of all being played out in real time all around us. It's unfortunate that only those who step outside the box can see what's going on. The majority are so anesthetized by popular culture that they don't have a hope of doing so.
They came after him more because of the things he was saying rather than any breach of sanctions on Serbia....not only was he a 911 truther, he was also a Holocaust Denier...
It was pretty hideous, listening to the announcement of his death on National Public Radio. Of course, they played his call to that radio talk show that he made just after 9/11; while I don't agree with everything he said, nor the manner in which he said it, what he said wasn't even vaguely anti-semitic. But, of course, because he dared to criticize Israel, that's what the announcer cast his call as. _________________ "What about a dance club that only let in deaf people? It would really only need flashing lights, so they'd save a lot of money on music." - Dresden Codak
It was pretty hideous, listening to the announcement of his death on National Public Radio. Of course, they played his call to that radio talk show that he made just after 9/11; while I don't agree with everything he said, nor the manner in which he said it, what he said wasn't even vaguely anti-semitic. But, of course, because he dared to criticize Israel, that's what the announcer cast his call as.
But then again, stuff like this infamous interview is probably where people get the anti-semitism stuff from. It's an interesting interview as he's basically comes out with the same tired old nonsense I've got too bored to argue with anymore.
I like the way the Holocaust denial door-knockers have jumped in in an entirely predictable way. I am increasingly fascinated by the way 911/conspiracy forums are frequented by Holocaust deniers much as Jehovah's Witnesses venture forth on a Sunday morning, eager to revive their dying ideology with it's aging gurus and creaky, long discredited arguments by preying upon those who might actually be impressed by a David Cole video or whatever, or by pretending CODOH, which routinely deletes 'incorrect' posts and banned all the 'believers' it pretends it 'trounced', is some kind of debate forum.
Just had to get in a final comment on that subject
Seeyas. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
like the way the Holocaust denial door-knockers have jumped in in an entirely predictable way.
Holocaust denier? The expression is framed so as to imply there is NO DOUBT that the OHCT is the inviolable truth.
'Let us never tolerate any outrageous conspiracy theories.'
You will find that people who find the OHCT very suspect are growing. Not because they are a cult, or being brainwashed, but because, like me, they still have an ability to make logical deductions and check records (pop stata for example). On top of that, the style of the obfuscators of truth becomes more readily discernable and evident for what it is as old techniques of ridiculing, intimidating, sidetracking etc become obvious. Whenever serious debate is engaged, the Holocaust as wrote is shown again and again to be substantially falsified.
Did you know Stalin built the gas ovens after the war because the Nazis destroyed the originals? I learned that on a science forum.
That would be the Stalin we now learn was son of Rothschild. Now his name Joseph Daviod Jewson makes more sense, because Rothschild is known as King David, and Joseph was David the Jew's Son.
neat, eh?
We crossed words on the subject of Stalin before, you made light of his 3 Jewish wives and name. Jewson timber merchants was dragged into the discussion as I recall. LOL
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:01 am Post subject:
Alexander wrote:
It's just that people like you can't debate the points at hand without resorting to name-calling and pretending that you have a monopoly on the truth.
You know the folks at CODOH have debunked all your pathetic HHP dross time and again....that's why you would never dare to post your tripe there.
Bye Bye.
There wouldn't be any point in Dogsmilk posting his "tripe" at CODOH because it would be promptly removed, presumably for not following the (Nazi) 'party line'.
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:19 am Post subject:
Dogsmilk wrote:
TmcMistress wrote:
It was pretty hideous, listening to the announcement of his death on National Public Radio. Of course, they played his call to that radio talk show that he made just after 9/11; while I don't agree with everything he said, nor the manner in which he said it, what he said wasn't even vaguely anti-semitic. But, of course, because he dared to criticize Israel, that's what the announcer cast his call as.
But then again, stuff like this infamous interview is probably where people get the anti-semitism stuff from. It's an interesting interview as he's basically comes out with the same tired old nonsense I've got too bored to argue with anymore.
I like the way the Holocaust denial door-knockers have jumped in in an entirely predictable way. I am increasingly fascinated by the way 911/conspiracy forums are frequented by Holocaust deniers much as Jehovah's Witnesses venture forth on a Sunday morning, eager to revive their dying ideology with it's aging gurus and creaky, long discredited arguments by preying upon those who might actually be impressed by a David Cole video or whatever, or by pretending CODOH, which routinely deletes 'incorrect' posts and banned all the 'believers' it pretends it 'trounced', is some kind of debate forum.
Just had to get in a final comment on that subject
Seeyas.
People on this site who believe that 9/11 was an inside job....or rather know that 9/11 was an inside job are absolutely bound to believe in Zionist plots.
ALL THE EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT ZIONISTS (CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH) WERE BEHIND THE MURDERS THAT TOOK PLACE ON 9/11 AND AND THE FALLOUT FROM IT.
OK, Fischer was clearly a rabid antisemite. That does not mean he was wrong about 9/11. Nor does it mean that we are all similarly raving antisemites on this site, though you (who seem interested only in this issue) would insist that we are.
Personally I resent the power that Zionism has over the lives of and the future of myself and my family. I resent the fact that its adherents are mass-murderers who control the politics of most of the western world.
Actually I believe that political action cannot effectively respond to or counteract this power. Its influence is too dominating and any political movement that takes them on is most likely to be infiltrated and destroyed from within as has so often happened in the past.
I believe that the only effective opposition to these forces will be created by spiritual movements to which all politicians who MUST use 'morality' to carry their public, will be subject.
.......particularly Christianity....which came first to the Jews. Christ condemned only sin.....but with particular reference to the prototype Zionists, the Pharisees (who interpreted the message of the prophets in a self-centred and ethno-centric rather than a Universalist way) and the moneylenders, scribes and lawyers.
Not a bad judge, JC......our problems identified in a nutshell.
I will not shut up about this issue because people like you keep shouting 'antisemite' at me.
This is a despicable and dishonest tactic and speaks more of your judeo-centric consciousness than any desire of members of this forum to denigrate the Jewish race. Why must this debate, of all debates, be slanted in this fashion?
I think that most people are not antisemitic in the slightest in the sense that they harbour any predisposition towards prejudice against Jews. However, I am prejudiced against people who have taken control of the wealth and power in my country and then proceed to betray us all by lies and criminal violence. (although this, of course, is how they got control in the first place).
These people are not all Jews but it is undeniable that there are many Jews amongst them. it is also undeniable that this group, as a collective, promote Zionism globally. It is also undeniable that the Jewishness and the dreaded 'antisemitism' charge is used to empower these forces.
......and, O my God......how successful a tactic has this been?
It is also my belief that Zionism is merely a tool used by these oligarchical powers to gain control of the world. Many innocent Jews are likely to suffer because of this when things turn to *hit in the USA and elsewhere.
Once these people have achieved their aim Zionism will be dropped. Zionism will be unnecessary as Jerusalem will be the global capital for the NWO and the whole world will be under the control of the various groups of criminals who serve the NWO.
Lucifer will be enthroned and the Christ will be destroyed (as a messiah and as a spiritual reality). This is where these people mean to take us. Their own writings confirm it.
We must see that this does not happen.
We must promote all truth, expose false ideology for what it is and recognise that only a striving for the perfection of perfect love and the fair implementation of universal principles stands any chance of saving humanity.
All faiths, creeds and political movements (including the NWO) hijack partial or imperfect or limited versions of Christ's (and our own) natural recognition of the Divine and the perfect.
Through these imperfections and loopholes the corrupters, with their self-centred agenda, will always creep. They will always lead us back to the abyss if we allow anything but a perfect paradigm to continue to dominate our cultures.
The real battle is between (for want of a better way of putting it) God and Satan......
.....and this battle takes place within first and without second.
People on this site who believe that 9/11 was an inside job....or rather know that 9/11 was an inside job are absolutely bound to believe in Zionist plots.
wrong. i can 100% gaurentee there are people who think 9/11 was an inside job or believe it yet could'nt give a nonsense about who did it.
they just want an investigastion which will then deal with who done it, if it is proven to be an inside job via the investigastion.
my personal stance is, i feel there are questions to be answered which are currently ignored or not looked into, i support the case for a new investigastion, and the family members who want answers.
i do not assume who did it or have a conclusion on who did it. to me that is something down the road if it is proven to be an inside job, theres no point accusing or assuming who did it untill and if it is proven via a new investigastion.
I will not shut up about this issue because people like you keep shouting 'antisemite' at me.
This is a despicable and dishonest tactic and speaks more of your judeo-centric consciousness than any desire of members of this forum to denigrate the Jewish race. Why must this debate, of all debates, be slanted in this fashion?
Who has shouted 'anti-semite' at you, in the course of this thread (or any other on this site, for that matter?) You seriously need to get over yourself.
I find it fascinating that people who have little backing for their pet theories seem to simultaneously suffer from a persecution complex. If you can't make a good argument, it has little to do with "The Man" coming down on you.
Oh, for those of you into the whole wacky holocaust denial thing, feel free to stop bringing up CODOH. If you can't make your case here, stop trying to get the people tearing you a new one on the subject to follow you to Camp Groupthink so you can have some backup monkeys to toss s**t as well.
Thanks for the video, dogsmilk. Yeah, that definitely makes a case for the 'raving lunatic' line... _________________ "What about a dance club that only let in deaf people? It would really only need flashing lights, so they'd save a lot of money on music." - Dresden Codak
which looks to me like some kind of newsgroup - as it is it's actually a Rense article apparently from Virginia Abernethy (someone who has been repeatedly linked with white supremacists) penned by someone from, and originally appearing in - you guessed it - the spotlight. You are hence trying to make out it somehow officially represents Stanford University when it is blatantly obvious to anyone who looks it does not.
You are also being wilfully deceptive (or have such rudimentary knowledge of the Holocaust you are in no position to comment) by stating "Stalin built the gas ovens" because you know as well as I do Krema I at Auschwitz was rebuilt by the Polish after the war, yet the facilities at Birkenau where the really serious killing took place lie in ruins to this day. We'll note here deniers, while noting the building is a reconstruction, also go on about why e.g. the door is wrong - so they try to make an argument it's a reconstruction, then simultaneously act like it's an unaltered original when trying to find 'anomalies'. I say deniers though I think 'serious' deniers know don't bother with the Krema I arguments as they know how fatuous they are.
In fact, no denier denies the existence of the ovens themselves and are singularly unable to explain why there were so many without pretending the typhus problem at Auschwitz was of truly apocalyptic, omega man proportions in stark contradiction to the surviving death books.
So to summarise, you "learned on a science forum" that "Stalin built the gas ovens" by simply posting a Rense article on that forum that says Krema I is a reconstruction "apparently" (great evidence!) on Stalin's orders and then get taken not very seriously by other posters there.
How convincing.
Btw, don't confuse people in the 'conspiracy theory' community who don't know the subject very well being intrigued by (sometimes) superficially convincing videos or whatever with a growth in 'serious' Holocaust denial which is lacking new 'champions' and anything resembling original research. It's been nine years since Richard Krege claimed he had groundbreaking ground radar results shattering the 'myth' of Treblinka and he still hasn't published his report on his 'findings'.
As a 'discipline', it's slowly dying because it's simply run out of new things to say. Meanwhile, the TM has exploded far more rapidly than denial ever managed and has reached far more 'respectable' people. Which is why I'm not surprised Holocaust deniers are so keen to leech off it.
And about as convincing is linking to a light-hearted business diary from the telegraph as 'evidence' Stalin was a Rothchild, despite the fact the article's tone clearly shows it doesn't take the matter seriously. You probably don't link to the actual source article because you know it's just a big load of speculation based on a bunch of 'could it be's?' written by some bloke.
I made light of his 'Jewish wives' because they weren't Jewish and even if they were that wouldn't 'mean' anything. Jewson timber merchants was mentioned because you had a frankly preposterous (it's from JudicialInc which specialises in the preposterous) argument that Stalin's surname meant "Jewson" which you appeared to believe would make him Jewish - you presumably also believe all those with the surname "Smith" know how to beat metal on an anvil, or at least have an immediate relative that does.
Incidentally, you may wish to peruse Stormfront for a lengthy thread that debunks the whole "Jewson" translation anyway - it's the thread where many are slagging off your beloved JudicialInc. When even card carrying Nazis are debunking your favourite Jew-baiting site, it might be time to sit up and listen.
You're clearly not daft, so I just can't get my head round why you cling to such stuff or why I waste my time arguing with the patently absurd.
Then kbo throws his toys out of his pram and decides I'm calling him an anti-semite simply because I post a video of Bobby Fischer ranting a load of anti-semitic *. As TMC notes, no-one has called you an anti-semite, to the best of my knowledge ever on this board, yet you're very fond of crying 'woe is me' and claiming they have. Find one example of me or anyone else here calling you an anti-semite if you want to play the martyr.
Fischer wasn't just thought of as a crank for this stuff. He was also famous for e.g. making a vast list of conditions for his re-match, some of which were a bit weird. He was clearly a guy with 'issues', maybe on the ASD continuum, yet simply because he made some comments about 911, he's suddenly a hero. This ''four legs good, two legs bad' reasoning which deifies anyone who adopts a truther stance and pours scorn on anyone who doesn't (and it appears even LIHOP now frequently qualifies in that department these days) is becoming a kind of fundamentalism, a bit like saying you "know" "Zionists" were responsible. How do you "know" Zionists were responsible? Have you seen some documents the rest of us haven't or something? I don't even know what people mean when they say "Zionists" any more as it appears to have become a catch-all boogeyman word thrown around with gay abandon. It's like (much of) the NPT crowd dissing everyone who's not 'hardcore' enough in their beliefs.
And Alexander, if you're so convinced of your favourite fantasy, why don't you pop over to RODOH where they at least have debate not a back-slapping denial party that censors dissent. I wouldn't join as I don't think I've sufficient expertise to add anything, but then I post reactively on the subject simply to provide counter argument - I don't run round selling the watchtower to anyone who'll buy it. I'm sure if all the 'believer' arguments are tripe, you'll own the forum in a matter of days. So what are you waiting for?
http://p102.ezboard.com/brodohforum http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/ http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/quick-links.html
Really, probably, seeyas. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
Rodin avoided the actual question completely and told me he would like to know
WHY DID JEWS FINANCE HITLER???
A perfectly good question and given Prescott Bush's involvement a highly relevant one.
But asking who financed Hitler is not the same as regurgitating the discussion of the WWII holocaust again and again and in the process associating yourselves and the 9/11 truth movement with the racist bs of people like David Duke and Mullins
Every time I ask the question (such as here) we go round in circles.
Answer the question or avoid discussing the holocaust
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject:
TmcMistress wrote:
Who has shouted 'anti-semite' at you, in the course of this thread (or any other on this site, for that matter?) You seriously need to get over yourself.
using the first person gave you the wrong idea. I should have said 'Nobody should stop making appropriate references to zionism on this site'. Dogsmilk attacks anybody who raises the Zionism issue, even if that was not the purpose of their post.
I had no idea in making the first post on this thread that Fischer was rabid about Jews (although he is one himself). Dogsmilk himself actually posted the offensive material then castigated everyone else for even referring to the fact that Fischer was a 9/11 truther as if fischer's views and wsensibilities were our own.
Then along you come with more ad hominem rubbish like the below:.
TmcMistress wrote:
I find it fascinating that people who have little backing for their pet theories seem to simultaneously suffer from a persecution complex.
I don't, you *sshole.
TmcMistress wrote:
If you can't make a good argument, it has little to do with "The Man" coming down on you.
Is it the Christianity mentioned that is not a 'good argument'?....or the references to Zionist participation in 9/11?
On the latter the evidence is absolutely noverwhelming. Re the former...please yourself. We must say what we think.
....and what 'man' would that be??
TmcMistress wrote:
Oh, for those of you into the whole wacky holocaust denial thing, feel free to stop bringing up CODOH. If you can't make your case here, stop trying to get the people tearing you a new one on the subject to follow you to Camp Groupthink so you can have some backup monkeys to toss s**t as well.
This is your pal Dogsmilk's issue. He raised it. he made an argument out of it. In the present context it must be some kind of 'straw man'.....isn't that the term?
...[/quote]
Last edited by kbo234 on Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Because "the" holocaust was and is used to justify the invasion and theft of Palestine, and the creation of the state of Israel?
Because this was "legitimised" by the globalist UN?
Because Israel is recognised by most people in the world as the greatest threat to world peace?
Because Israel has a long history of false flag operations and is thought to be deeply involved in 9/11, London tube bombs, Madrid, Bali etc. etc.?
Because the international banking scam is overwhelmingly dominated by elite zionists?
Because there is a conspiracy to rule the world under a single tyrannical government?
Because for centuries people have claimed that this conspiracy involves elite jewry?
Because elite zionists manipulate and employ the suffering of ordinary jews to further their cause?
Because 9/11 wasn't just an insurance job?
Because 9/11 was a power play in the conspiracy to rule the world under a single tyrannical government?
Because "the" holocaust is one of the primary tools used to suppress free speech and open debate?
Most of all:
Because "the" holocaust is the most zealously defended "official truth". It is constantly propagated, re-enforced, defended carefully, repeatedly, and ruthlessly. People who question the official truth are smeared, harrassed, persecuted, jailed. Because "they" don't want us to think about it in any terms except as dictated by them.
So, I can tell you why I think it matters today. In as few words as possible: "Because 'they' do".
Dogsmilk attacks anybody who raises the Zionism issue
Doesn't he just. He disappears for weeks then as soon as the topic arises he posts voluminous verbiage attacking anyone who questions the Holocaust industry. Even though "bored" he manages to inform all of his boredom but still, presumably while stifling a hundred yawns, lets us all know, yet again, just why we should accept the official version and shut up. In spite of all the blatant evidence we should just accept a million coincidences and realise that Zionists and International Jewry are totally innocent. Yeah right! ...Yawn....
Because "the" holocaust was and is used to justify the invasion and theft of Palestine, and the creation of the state of Israel?
Because this was "legitimised" by the globalist UN?
Because Israel is recognised by most people in the world as the greatest threat to world peace?
Because Israel has a long history of false flag operations and is thought to be deeply involved in 9/11, London tube bombs, Madrid, Bali etc. etc.?
Because the international banking scam is overwhelmingly dominated by elite zionists?
Because there is a conspiracy to rule the world under a single tyrannical government?
Because for centuries people have claimed that this conspiracy involves elite jewry?
Because elite zionists manipulate and employ the suffering of ordinary jews to further their cause?
Because 9/11 wasn't just an insurance job?
Because 9/11 was a power play in the conspiracy to rule the world under a single tyrannical government?
Because "the" holocaust is one of the primary tools used to suppress free speech and open debate?
Most of all:
Because "the" holocaust is the most zealously defended "official truth". It is constantly propagated, re-enforced, defended carefully, repeatedly, and ruthlessly. People who question the official truth are smeared, harrassed, persecuted, jailed. Because "they" don't want us to think about it in any terms except as dictated by them.
So, I can tell you why I think it matters today. In as few words as possible: "Because 'they' do".
Do you think it doesn't matter? If not, why not?
Hi Simon
I don't disagree with any of the statements in your list. It is just if I were trying to expose the criminal nature of zionism and elite zionists and how they relate to other elites and cabals, I would not start with 'the' holocaust'.
I would start with
1) the current ongoing terrorism against the palestinians
2) USS Liberty
3) The collusion of elements of the west and zionist leaders with Hitler
4) The cover-up of the dancing israeli's on 9/11 and so forth
Once the wider public is more aware of these issues, this opens up the space for an honest reappraisal of the truth of the holocaust without being lumped together with ex KKK grand wizards like David Duke or 'scholars' like Mullins whose writing back in the 60s was clearly highly offensive and anti-jewish.
'They' care so much about the holocaust only because it is their strategy to stop people honestly looking at the true nature of zionism and the Israeli state. Sure 'they' have carefully nurtured the official truth of the holocaust, but as importantly 'they' have carefully nurtured the holocaust revisionism/denial scene so that in the public consciousness anyone who challenges the official truth is a Hitler/nazi sympathiser or apologist.
'They' are only too happy for 'us' to keep banging on about the holocaust. What would make 'them' squirm far more is focussing episodes like the USS Liberty or as Rodin suggests the question of who funded Hitler.
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject:
simplesimon wrote:
Most of all:
Because "the" holocaust is the most zealously defended "official truth". It is constantly propagated, re-enforced, defended carefully, repeatedly, and ruthlessly. People who question the official truth are smeared, harrassed, persecuted, jailed. Because "they" don't want us to think about it in any terms except as dictated by them.
So, I can tell you why I think it matters today. In as few words as possible: "Because 'they' do".
Do you think it doesn't matter? If not, why not?
Thats an answer, but quite a naive one in some respects, since you also cannot escape the fact that holocaust revisionism is inextricably linked to White Supremacy and Neo-Nazism. For any far right group, the holocaust is an embarrassment, and if it can be denied a major barrier to the legitimisation of their views has been removed. Time and time again, holocaust revisionists have been debunked and revealed as members of far right factions. Given that, is it any wonder that many people are wary of such views? For my part I have been PM'ed by new 9/11 truth members who have expressed their concerns about the way this site now seems to tolerate these views.
Asking if the Holocaust has been exploited by certain elites to further their own ends is a very different and more relevant approach, given the remit of this site. I think most would agree it is used to stifle debate at times, and certainly to help legitimise crimes against humanity. This in its way, is as much an insult to the memory of the victims of the Holocaust as denying that it ever took place. My personal take would be that from the 1960's onwards, Israelis have been exploited to provide a permanent U.S presence where the oil is.
Given that there are many important questions to ask, this really does bring into question the motives of those who say 'holohoax', why bring this up when its controversial and pretty much irrelevant? And why does revisionism seem to concentrate purely on the Jewish Holocaust, when many other groups were also murdered, including Homosexuals, Gypsies, political prisoners, and even 'difficult' British POW's? Doesn't this mean everything was a hoax, including the testimony of British inmates? Lets not also forget the Nazi policy of social eugenics, was that also a hoax?
I recommend everyone to actually take a good look at CODOH, which one member here seems to love, then ask themselves again what are the true motives of Holocaust deniers....... On the pages of CODOH you can read such gems as....
"It's a joke. The United States is a farce controlled by dirty, hook-nosed circumcised Jew b******.".....followed by "And who am I to argue with him?"
As already related, this Committee for Open Discussion' of the Holocaust is nothing of the sort, since it brooks no dissent or counter-argument, it is in fact nothing more than glib political propaganda. The fact is supporters of such theories are often the same people who throw bricks through mosque windows and belong to extreme factions of the BNP (I personally know someone who fits this description).
So I would ask again, what are the true motives of these one-trick ponies, whose main posting history involves supporting Holocaust Denial, and in fact only ever posting when theres a chance to criticise Jews (as opposed to Zionists)?
As an aside, if the Holocaust was largely a Soviet invention to promote Zionism, where does the substantial Soviet financial and military support for Egypt, Syria, and Iraq fit in?
also cannot escape the fact that holocaust revisionism is inextricably linked to White Supremacy and Neo-Nazism
It is not a fact. I know many people who dispute many of the "facts" relating to the so-called "Holocaust" who do not in any way link to White Supremacy or Neo-Nazism. That you say they do reveals a lot about where you are coming from. You think you have it all wrapped up after decades of propaganda but you do not, especially as it can be seen to be part of a bigger conspiracy which involves 9/11 and its cover-up. ALL history should be up for questioning and that includes the so-called "Holocaust". Attempting to smear any questioners by associating them with unacceptable groups is a feeble response. As for your remarks about gypsies etc - since when do they have powerful lobbies which virtually own governments and dictate policies? How many UN resolutions has the USA vetoed because of its suport for gypsies? Talk sense!
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject:
blackcat wrote:
It is not a fact. I know many people who dispute many of the "facts" relating to the so-called "Holocaust" who do not in any way link to White Supremacy or Neo-Nazism. That you say they do reveals a lot about where you are coming from.
I didn't say that all revisionists were linked to extreme groups, but theres plenty of evidence to suggest the two movements are quite happy bedfellows, and many revisionists have been revealed as having extreme political views, as has been covered on here before. This is undeniable, hence the unease with which people approach revisionist opinions.
As regards, the Gypsies and other victims of the Holocaust, you twist my words totally, I wondered why revisionism refers exclusively to Jewish victims, with seemingly little or no attempt to cover or revise other genocides, thats a very valid question IMHO.
Your kneejerk and rather 'feeble' response to my post and my valid questions speaks volumes.......
I didn't say that all revisionists were linked to extreme groups
You said
Quote:
you also cannot escape the fact that holocaust revisionism is inextricably linked to White Supremacy and Neo-Nazism.
"CANNOT ESCAPE the FACT that HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM is INEXTRICABLY LINKED to WHITE SUPREMACY and NEO-NAZISM"
My apologies. When you wrote that "you also cannot escape the fact that holocaust revisionism is inextricably linked to White Supremacy and Neo-Nazism" I mistakenly thought that you wrote "you also cannot escape the fact that holocaust revisionism is inextricably linked to White Supremacy and Neo-Nazism" My eyes must be going. Sorry for the knee jerk reaction.
Quote:
As regards, the Gypsies and other victims of the Holocaust, you twist my words totally, I wondered why revisionism refers exclusively to Jewish victims
I twist nothing. It seems twisted because your view is twisted. There is no distortion or exaggeration regarding the gypsies and other victims and they do not use the "Holocaust" to further an agenda. Hence there is nothing to challenge. Just like there is nothing to challenge the history of victims of the Blitz. They do not distort, exaggerate or misuse a part of history to further their own ends and so there is nothing to respond to. If they started pushing a pack of blatant lies to establish the state of Independent Pimlico then maybe people would start looking at their claims.
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject:
Seeing as we have arrived back at this point (discussing the holocaust) again......regrettably........there was an excellent article today on the 'Smoking Mirrors' blog that just touches on this issue but, I would guess, reflects the views of many on this site......so here it is:
Wednesday, January 23
Heartless in Gaza; Break-dancing Among the Dead.
The first thing to look at and the last thing to look at in the apartheid, ‘genocide-active’ Gaza situation is the Israeli mindset toward Palestinians.
First off, here is an example of how the rank and file IDF sees the Palestinian -just the way that a dog will roll in a roadside carcass and call it perfume, the Israeli soldiers bathe in the blood of a defenseless people and revel in the experience. They are joined in this by the police and the settlers -the police and soldiers stand by while the settlers beat and murder the Palestinians. Many of the radical and graphic depictions are removed very quickly from Youtube by Zionist organizations that use small armies of the willing to complain about the videos. Pressure also comes from above through various channels. I picked this last video because it might stay up. Often a video is gone by the time I’ve linked it or sent it to someone.
In the same way, all of the news items that showed the Israeli soldiers were captured on Lebanese soil have also been removed from the internet.
Israel claims that they have to ruthlessly suppress the people of Gaza because of some small amount of large firecrackers disguised as missiles that keep landing in Siderot in abandoned lots and wasteland. Hardly ever is an Israeli settler hit by anything; even rarer that there is a fatality. Given Israel’s proven track record of manufacturing events that they can use to justify aggressive action, it is extremely likely that they are firing these missiles or arranging for it. No other country in the world has so many proven instances of engagement in such activity. “By deception ye shall wage war.”
The idea that starving and abusing the 1.5 million residents of an area because it is being alleged that some small number is attacking illegal settlements is absurdity piled on to absurdity. How is tormenting an entire population supposed to influence a small handful of guerrilla operatives? Especially, how is it to be effective if it is actually being carried out by Israel?
Here are the facts; Israelis drove the Palestinians off of their lands. They poisoned their wells and murdered entire families to drive them away. The facts of the matter and all matters I will mention are very easily accessed. It is beyond absurd to demand that Palestinians recognize Israel’s right to exist when Israel does not recognize Palestine’s right to exist.
So much of this seems to tie into the holocaust industry. A massive effort has been afoot for decades to set into stone a specific amount of Jewish deaths and to remove from public attention the much greater amount of deaths suffered by others. This has led to over 250 McMuseums of holocaustia paraphernalia scattered around the globe. You ought to be able to get a t-shirt and a cup of coffee there too with a ceremonial mug.
This major industry is an enormous cash cow that provides for the blackmailing of nations and legitimizing all manner of terror attacks and the genocide of the Palestinians. It is beyond odd that these former victims of particular outrage can now engage in the same outrages against another set of people.
It is a crime in many nations to dispute the official story concerning this holocaust. It’s apparently against the law even for a lawyer to defend an individual accused of this. It is even more absurd that the numbers keep changing and are never the same numbers depending on who does the counting. A certain mass grave site has been proven forensically not to have existed. So it is that you are told the ground beneath your feet is not the ground beneath your feet and if you say that it is you can go to jail.
The fact is that those who brought you the state of Israel as a source of terrorism and war and a vehicle of oppression against the Palestinians and the whole world… NEED for certain things to be believed. This is the primary reason that no one can challenge officially stated facts that are proven not to be facts but are in flux and often shaped for the benefit of whoever is twisting whoever’s arm over whatever needs to be believed so that more money and power can flow to the source of such great outrage against humanity that continues from day to day.
So it is that even asking a question as to whether it might not be okay to ask certain questions is punishable by being called anti-Semitic, loss of income and reputation and imprisonment.
How can this be?
HOW CAN THIS BE???
I have no opinion about this holocaust, either to dispute or defend it. My attention is on presently active holocausts, not old holocausts and certainly not cash cow holocausts that are nothing more than a business. I can imagine that Israel is very nervous about the numbers in The Congo, now reading at 5.4 million dead. What are they going to do when the number goes past 6 million? Now that is going to be interesting to see. That is going to be very interesting.
Here’s what it comes down to. You can’t question numbers and events about something- and ONLY THAT SOMETHING, because if you do it takes away the force presently being employed to destroy the Palestinian people and to engineer wars by proxy countries against anyone you don’t like or whose lands you desire; Iraq, Iran, Lebanon. Etc. It takes away the flow of free and endless guilt money to finance all the false flags and gratuitous wars. It de-legitimizes the excuse for bombing the U.S.S. Liberty and trying to blame it on Egypt. It de-legitimizes the attack on the King David Hotel. It de-legitimizes the rights of neo-con heavyweights to orchestrate 9/11 as a launching pad for all of the darkness of the last seven years and darkness planned to come.
You can’t question the basis for all of this aggression and paranoia because the aggression and paranoia would no longer have a world wide imprimatur to act however it damn well wants to act. That is why you can’t question something because it robs the juggernaut of fuel oil. I neither affirm nor deny anything because I personally don’t know. But what I do know is there is a disparity between the truth and what is presented in its place. I also know that this event is being used to justify much terrible and unnecessary violence against the peoples of the world.
I suggest you read some of these links and if one or two videos aren’t enough I suggest you look in the menu at the pages I gave in the beginning. You’ll also note how many have been removed.
There is something very, very bad festering in the state of Israel and it is plaguing the whole world in one way or another. Possibly the summing up of our entire civilization is tied in with whether the world finds the courage to force Israel behind its original borders and to compel her to remain there. The governments of the world have to root this influence out of their official activities and unless they do then sooner or later the whole of the world’s population will become Palestinian. If you can’t see this then you don’t want to see it. However, pretending that something is not so does not make it so.
The murder has to stop. The blackmailing and the honey-traps and the arm-twisting have to stop. The apartheid and the genocide have to stop. This year will give us much evidence of just how dangerous it is to let one nation force the hand of the world and continue to break dance in the blood and carnage.
" i can 100% gaurentee there are people who think 9/11 was an inside job or believe it yet could'nt give a nonsense about who did it. they just want an investigastion which will then deal with who done it, if it is proven to be an inside job via the investigastion.
my personal stance is, i feel there are questions to be answered which are currently ignored or not looked into, i support the case for a new investigastion, and the family members who want answers.
i do not assume who did it or have a conclusion on who did it. to me that is something down the road if it is proven to be an inside job, theres no point accusing or assuming who did it untill and if it is proven via a new investigastion."
Marky,with 2847 posta on this site, I am totally shocked by your comments....
Are you not interested in who did 9/11 + why.?
Do you think we will ever get an "independent" investigation which says it is......X, Y, +Z. who did it ?......naive comes to mind.
I neither affirm nor deny anything because I personally don’t know. But what I do know is there is a disparity between the truth and what is presented in its place. I also know that this event is being used to justify much terrible and unnecessary violence against the peoples of the world.
That is it in a nutshell. BUT - you are NOT allowed to hold that view!!!!
Joined: 03 Aug 2006 Posts: 431 Location: North East England
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject:
Blackcat,
OK, I can see I'm going to have to lead you by the hand on this one, so...
Just as 3 does not equal 7, and sprout does not equal cabbage, so "cannot escape the fact that holocaust revisionism is inextricably linked to White Supremacy and Neo-Nazism" does not equal 'all revisionists are neo Nazis, White Supremacists. etc', it means there is an inextricable link between the two positions, this is a statement of fact, end of, nothing more and nothing less. If you take it as something more, thats your problem and again speaks volumes........
I agree with you and the Holocaust agenda, I thought I covered that when I said "Asking if the Holocaust has been exploited by certain elites to further their own ends is a very different and more relevant approach, given the remit of this site. I think most would agree it is used to stifle debate at times, and certainly to help legitimise crimes against humanity."
However, asking if revisionists are pushing their own agenda when they concentrate exclusively on the Jewish Holocaust remains a very valid question. If revisionism is purely in the interests of truth, and righting 'wrongs', then why don't they question other similar agendas?
For example, the Soviet 'justification' for the occupation of Eastern Europe after WWII was couched largely in terms of the huge casualties they suffered during the war, Soviet figures vary from 20 million right up to 45 million. Where are the revisionists on that one?
Similarly with Poland's claims that it should have greater EC voting rights, due to wartime casualties inflicted by Germany, where are the revisionists on that issue?
Which once again should prompt the question of what revisionists aims are? What is their agenda, calling the Holocaust a 'Holohoax' does not equate to an accurate revision of possibly inflated death tolls, it smacks of something else....
Surely a 'truther' should be questioning the validity of all his sources, not just cherry picking those that suit best...........?
Last edited by wepmob2000 on Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
What a strange week to be yet again enmeshed in the sticky web of history according to Herzl's acolytes. Olmert & crew have begun their 'final deconstruction' of Gaza and you're all still arguing another holocaust that may or may not have happened the way historians would have us believe?
Oy vey... I'm not going to repeat them, but the following questions have yet to be answered satisfactorily, by any group or 'movement':-
Dogsmilk attacks anybody who raises the Zionism issue
Doesn't he just. He disappears for weeks then as soon as the topic arises he posts voluminous verbiage attacking anyone who questions the Holocaust industry. Even though "bored" he manages to inform all of his boredom but still, presumably while stifling a hundred yawns, lets us all know, yet again, just why we should accept the official version and shut up. In spite of all the blatant evidence we should just accept a million coincidences and realise that Zionists and International Jewry are totally innocent. Yeah right! ...Yawn....
Heh - and how did I know you'd pop up with your usual dearth of actual coherent arguments dear boy. I just had to pop back to say hello to you my darling. I do try to stay away, but your siren song lures me back.
Well, just as kbo can't show where he's ever been called an anti-semite, here's another assertion that exists only in his head...and yours it seems. There have been numerous posts relating to this over recent weeks with nary a comment from me. I know you both find this astonishingly simple concept difficult to grasp but I'll repeat it anyway - I don't like political Zionism and I think Israel is guilty of war crimes, but I nevertheless don't subscribe to a lazy, flat-earth conception of the world that sees Zionism as some kind of planetary all-consuming evil run by a cabal of Ming the Merciless clones that you can just conveniently blame everything on. It's the same 19th century "international Jewry" nonsense recycled for the 21st century to appeal to antipathy towards Israel.
Interestingly, though you see "Zionists" everywhere, you have a strange blind spot to the demonstrable linkages between Holocaust denial and the far right Wepmob raises. In fact, an awful lot of the 'big players' are connected to the far right in one way or another or have let slip their precise attitudes towards Jews. And isn't it simply amazing how often they appear in the Nazi press giving interviews and wotnot. And isn't it fascinating how overwhelmingly popular Holocaust denial is in Nazi circles. And isn't it convenient how Holocaust denial actually turns the biggest PR gaffe Nazism could ever have back against the Jews?
To be ignorant of the links between Holocaust denial and the far right you'd either have to have been born yesterday or be the kind of person who only believes what they read on Rense or something.
And this "international Jewry" you mention; what is it? See, I know a couple of Jews and so - just so I can pass it on - how can they tell if they're part of "international Jewry". They're not in any club or anything, and are pretty much individuals in their own right, so how can they tell if they're 'in'? And is there an "international Muslimry" too? "international Christianry"? "international Sikhry"?
Which "official story" are you referring to? 911 or the Holocaust? If the former I have certain 'issues' with the OS, and don't recall ever endorsing it. If the latter, I fail to see how the work of hundreds of independent historians who agree on the basics but frequently vehemently disagree on the minutiae constitutes an "official story".
Quote:
I twist nothing. It seems twisted because your view is twisted. There is no distortion or exaggeration regarding the gypsies and other victims and they do not use the "Holocaust" to further an agenda. Hence there is nothing to challenge.
Well the Gypsies were gassed and the evidence for this is the same as that for the Jews. Indeed, I see no difference whatsoever in the evidence relating to the Jews and to the Gypsies. Indeed, since study of the gypsies has been unjustly a bit neglected, I'd say we know more about what happened to the Jews.
Could you possibly present your own review of the evidence that demonstrates the extermination of the Gypsies has a stronger evidence base than the extermination of the Jews with relation to events and their supposed 'exaggeration'? Or - as I suspect - is it the case you do not have the slightest clue what you're talking about and are just making things up as you go along? Prove me wrong!
I'm sorry if kbo found the youtube I posted "offensive". Better to pretend it never existed eh? None of us like to see our 'truth heroes' deflated, even if they are a few fishes short of an aquarium. As far as I'm concerned, David Shayler has more credibilty. That's my opinion, and if you don't like it, then tough.
You may choose to notice it wasn't actually me who first mentioned Holocaust denial either. I admit I do tend to spark these exchanges though, because I don't always ignore or gullibly swallow this stuff. In a way I encourage it I know.
As it happens, I do have some sympathy with the broad point raised in the article you posted. Just as Israeli actions in Gaza in 2008 have no bearing whatsoever on the empirical reality of events sixty years ago, neither do these events represent any justification, explanation or diversion for contemporary actions. As far as I'm concerned, both Israelis and deniers exploit the Holocaust for their own political agendas. It happened, it was awful, the dead should be left to rest without anyone pissing on their memoryto get at either Palestinians or Jews.
Blackcat clearly has a problem differentiating between the concept of the 'Holocaust industry' and Holocaust denial. He'll probably be confused I (largely) agree with the existence of the former but think the latter is bobbins.
Strange though the article can raise the notion of Jewish dead being the overriding concern as illegitimate and everyone's happy, but whenever I point out there is more going on in the world than just Palestine I'm evil. Funny that, innit?
I like Simplesimon's amazing logic, so important it warranted bold type.
It does of course leave the following questions:
1/If the TM has merit in its claims, why is it totally legal then?
2/Why did the PTB opt to give, by banning it, Holocaust denial
a/The biggest publicity boost it ever had
b/Sympathy from free speech supporters who otherwise would simply dismiss it
3/Why did/do many of those that actually write the history or actively oppose denial oppose the ban?
4/Why is it so ineffectual? You can download many denier books for free, watch all your denier faves on google video and no-one is stopping you coming out with denial here.
5/Why are the very same archives historians use freely available to deniers? (though only Carlo Mattogno and David Irving seem arsed to use them)
6/Why is the only practical restriction on research that involving rooting around in graves digging people up? (I realise some deniers cry foul at this, apparently thinking Jews are fair game when it comes to gleefully exhuming their relatives in an attempt to prove them to be filthy liars, but I assume real people grasp the sensitivity). As it is, it can happen but the protest that accompanied Kola's work locating mass graves at Belzec shows it's a touchy subject. Otherwise, it's not even like Fred Leuchter had any problems getting samples for his comedy science project; why don't they 'hide the evidence'?
7/Why do Neo-Nazis like Ernst Zundel get upset about their free speech being curtailed anyway? I thought Nazis were against free speech. He should just do a sieg heil salute and goose step happily to his cell. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject:
Dogsmilk wrote:
Well, just as kbo can't show where he's ever been called an anti-semite......
You call me (amongst others) a 'holocaust denier' for referring to evidence of lies about the holocaust.
Isn't this just a tiny, tiny little bit like being called an anti-semite?
When reference is made to the change of the 4 million number to 1.1 million exterminated at Auschwitz.......or the evidence from the Soviet archive.......or the comical bleatings of Dr Piper (no blue staining on the Auschwitz crematorium walls because they were only used for 10-20 minutes a day unlike the blue staining on the delousing gas chamber which was running 24 hours a day) on David Cole's film......you have failed, in my opinion, to present evidence that explains or undoes these lies and/or mistakes. You simply refer to other sources and witness statements that assert, basically, the original story. I don't know about the whole holocaust story but I'm pretty sure that the Auschwitz tale is packed full of lies.
The effects of the endless propaganda on this issue are obvious. Israel would never be able to get away with its treatment of the Palestinians if the west were not guilt-ridden about the holocaust.
All this is obvious, but your rage and ad hominem abuse that you throw out every time people on this site go anywhere near the 'Zionist' demonstrates your predisposition and mindset as much as ours.
Dogsmilk wrote:
I don't like political Zionism and I think Israel is guilty of war crimes, but I nevertheless don't subscribe to a lazy, flat-earth conception of the world that sees Zionism as some kind of planetary all-consuming evil run by a cabal of Ming the Merciless clones that you can just conveniently blame everything on. It's the same 19th century "international Jewry" nonsense recycled for the 21st century to appeal to antipathy towards Israel.
I don't think Jews run the world but their influence on events is hugely disproportionate to their numbers. As for the "International Jewry" nonsense.....Ariel Sharon would have disagreed with you. he said, "Don't worry about America. We, the Jewish people, control America."
It really does look like he was telling the truth and The UK's silence on the Israel/Palestine issue makes me wonder if the same is true in this country.
This might sound like lazy, flat-earth thinking to you but I believe, true or not, there is genuine cause for concern on this issue.
Of course, the suppression of 9/11 truth is what enrages most of the posters on this site. There are many Jews also calling for the truth on this issue ....but let us be fair here.....how can you possibly discuss 9/11 without mentioning Zionism and the Mossad connections to it?
Dogsmilk wrote:
Interestingly, though you see "Zionists" everywhere, you have a strange blind spot to the demonstrable linkages between Holocaust denial and the far right Wepmob raises.
Who is denying there is such a linkage? I do not know if Zundl is right or wrong. I do know there are many facts about Auschwitz I do not believe.
It is possible that the analysis of reality that many of the far-right would ascribe to is pretty accurate. Moseley had a big thing about the money-creation issue allowing bankers to control elected governments. He was quite right about that.
If the analysis of any 9/11 truthers resounds in places with that of the far right this should not be, in itself, a cause for concern.
The important differences between political ideologies is not their analysis but their studied response to the perceptions created by their analyses.
The far right see evil and believe in overcoming it with violence and evil of their own (though they would call it something quite different .......'righteousness' and 'justice' perhaps). People on this forum are quite a cross-section and would probably have all sorts of different ideas about what would be an appropriate response to the evils of 9/11 and the like. As a Christian pacifist I believe that the truth alone will set us free...
.....violence?.....never!
By the way, I don't imagine that I, or any that agree with me, occupy the moral high ground here. My own ideals are highly compromised by the fact that I am usually employed as a teacher....and what is a teacher in the UK but a tart whose business it is to co-operate in the brainwashing of our children.....to enforce the paradigm and to co-operate in the straining at gnats and to never mention the camels that nearly everyone around us does not notice they have swallowed.
....anyway, never mind all that.....no doubt you will continue to imply that we are a bunch of right-wing murderous fascists in the making just because some very uncomfortable questions are raised and realities aired on this forum.
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