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EU referendum... not. Evidence of a fascist state in GB
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Pikey
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:50 pm    Post subject: EU referendum... not. Evidence of a fascist state in GB Reply with quote

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7280588.stm

Is this another wake up call?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Pikey, this is a smack in the face for Democracy. I believe this is far more serious than we think from both a religous angle and the political one . Some christian churches of various flavours have for many years been putting out their particular understanding of biblical end times prophecy and one of the common themes between them is that of a United States of Europe (A new Holy European Empire)
The Right Honourable Viscount Tonypandy of Rhondda in the forward to a book by Adrian Hilton "The Principality and Power of Europe" said in 1997
Quote:
"Deceit in high places has brought us to our present plight, and it is vital that a united endeavour to get out of the iron grip of European politicians should now be made"


The powers behind a United Federal Europe use gradualism to bring about their political desires (little by little then strike hard)

I just hope we there are enough honourable politicians left who will fight our corner

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I for one am fuming over the result of the vote not to hold a referendum on the EU Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad .

Arn't the MP's supposed to represent the views of their constituants?.

Last time i heard about 90% of the british population want a referendum on europe.

And that's not even counting the fact that the british people were promised a referendum by the labour party, then they went back on it.

This shows us that the british people and their opinion dosen't mean a thing to them and they just don't care.

They've sold out Britain to the EU, disgusting i think.

I think we need to chuck out most of the politicians in westminster and install in office a whole new party, one that will ask the people for their views and abide by it.

My own personal opinion is that we should have just stuck to trading with them (the common market) nothing more.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over the weekend I watched the BBC Parliament and saw Brown speak about how the British people wanted that Global Europe and that globalisim is the goal to be achieved. No one opposed his statement and they instead cheered him. Does anyone understand that globalisim is the new world order from the commercial side?

I have to carry that stupid American mantel for the accident of birth and have watched how a distant federal government undermines states and peoples rights. You are all in this growing disease and yes it is a sort of "gradualism". They will carry on because they have disarmed their subjects and fattened them from their teats. No one stands and the few that may be willing are subject to becoming branded terrorists and loosing all rights because society will follow the will of those who own the means of production.

Watching the old European states fold themselves into a distant government with no elected officials, seeing the rulers educate the subjects in mandatory schooling to accept queen and destiny is hairy to say the least. The new "treaty" actually says that the EU grants the rights of states to suggest modifications to any laws. Imagine that? The EU believes it can grant rights to state parliaments! Things they can grant are things it can take away. There will soon be no place to live where their declaratory subjugations do not reach.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: The European Left's Athens Declaration, 2005 Reply with quote

As there is so much anti-European slagging that goes on by a dedicated bunch of Europhobes on this site, I thought it a good idea to let readers see a little of the other Europe which they would otherwise not hear much about.

So I'm publishing, in its entirety, the text made by the European Left and called the Athens Declaration, 2005. From this, readers will see that there is a healthy socialist and libertarian movement within a European Union which is not all about New World Order multinationalism.

That last is primarily attributable to the work of the Trilateral Commission which, since its inception in 1973, has been working ceaselessy in the interests of what is now called the New World Order. A good, seminal book to read about the Trilats is the one that was published in the 'eighties by Holly Sklar, The Trilatersal Commission and Elite Planning for World Management. It should still be available through Amazon.

I would encourage those readers who agree with the call of the European Left to lend it solidarity, instead of following the destructive path of the Europhobes. European citizens must take their destiny into their own hands.

The European Left's Athens Declaration follows:

Athens Declaration

We, the European Left, gathered in Athens on the 29th and 30th of October, 2005, acknowledge that the crisis currently afflicting Europe has no borders, and that the neo-liberal policies decided upon in Brussels and by the national governments are to blame for it. These choices have been made over a period of many years, and the result is in front of our eyes, now.

We also acknowledge that the peoples of Europe, who have suffered most from these policies, are fighting against them and looking for alternatives. Europe needs to be re-established on a foundation of peace, democracy and full respect for social and human rights. This is our commitment and our hope: European citizens must take their destiny into their own hands.

This action and declaration of solidarity is likewise an appeal for unity addressed to all movements and left political forces that are striving to reverse priorities and to change the policies that have been implemented up to the present.

The European Left and its member parties are committed to fight together with social movements, trade unions, and political left forces for another Europe, which is possible. In this context, we fully support all European mobilisations and initiatives against neo-liberalism and war, particularly the Fourth European Social Forum to be held in Athens.

We are committed to eradicating the tragedy of unemployment and job insecurity. We are committed to fight against social exclusion, to support employment programmes, to work for the creation of new jobs, for the reduction of working hours, and the conversion of insecure and part-time work into steady, decently paid jobs. Therefore the European Left will develop its own set of proposals. We support all policies that fight and strive to stop job cuts and we also condemn fraudulent bankruptcies and relocations. We believe it is essential to preserve and rebuild social welfare systems (including public pensions) and to take life-long learning as a priority. We demand a new model of production, distribution and consumption. We fight for the immediate withdrawal of the Bolkestein Directive and the GATS (General Agreement on Trade and Services)

The deregulation of employment in Europe and the social dumping in the developing countries are two sides of the same coin. Both give benefits exclusively to the multinationals, increasing competition among the working people and affecting women in particular. A specific programme must be drawn up to establish a new relationship between productive and reproductive work, equal wages to overcome the sexual division of labour.

Instead of relocation, we propose that working hours and conditions be improved, that production be subject to environmental considerations, and that welfare and wage systems be empowered. Greater transparency, improved democracy and more worker’s power in the workplace are fundamental demands. It is by defending rights, not abolishing them, that we can achieve a more just world.

We insist on an urgent reorientation of EU budget and monetary policies.

The European Central Bank should be democratically controlled and placed at the service of employment and of development, which should be free of the demands of the financial markets, with particular attention to the less developed EU regions. We demand an end to the stability pact, in favour of social policies at European level.

We promote the strengthening of public services at local, regional, national and European levels.

We are against privatisations and the neo-liberal directives that promote the commercialisation of public resources and services such as water, energy, culture, education and health care. Basic services must not be regulated by profit, but by the quality levels demanded by the population. We oppose migration policies oriented to police action and the so-called fight against terrorism

The recent Lampedusa, Amsterdam and Melilla events, the situation of hundreds of so-called boat people in Italy and Greece and the deplorable conditions in the migrant detention centres reveal the inhuman cruelty and bankruptcy of Fortress Europe. A new policy must be formulated and implemented, based on respect for human dignity and equal labour rights that are an essential part of the labour movement in Europe, which will legalise all migrants and demand strategic support for development. We stand for a world without war and demand a European Peace policy against the military logic of the superpowers’ warfare

We fight for the development of European cooperation and solidarity to promote peace.

Europe does not need an aggressive alliance - one that disrupts and challenges the role of the UN - to secure peace and to establish peaceful relations with all countries of the world. We call on the people of Europe to demand that their countries withdraw from the NATO military structure, and that all NATO and US military bases be abolished. NATO, in its present form, is unacceptable and the demand for its abolition is absolutely essential.

Disarmament must become the primary issue in a Europe based on peace. The European Left demands a reduction of national military expenditure. Europe must be a continent free from weapons of mass destruction. All European armies must withdraw from Iraq immediately. The peace movement cannot slow down its actions. We are fully committed to its objectives, namely the mobilisation of public opinion in solidarity with the Palestinian people and the Israeli pacifist forces. There will be no peace in the region without a political solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, based on UN resolutions. This must be the European priority, within the framework of the quartet responsible for the "road map", as well as the destruction of the wall and the immediate withdrawal of foreign troops from the occupied territories.

We oppose the authoritarian offensive against civil liberties, social, labour and democratic rights.

The extraordinary legislation being approved by governments is an offensive against individual and collective rights that were the product of long democratic struggles. We will fight to stop this dangerous trend, for no security can be built that opposes freedom and democracy. Yes, we can change Europe!

We, the European Left, are fully committed to this challenge.

Our perspective is peaceful, socialist, ecological and radically democratic.

Our perspective is also a feminist one, for gender equality and democracy in all domains of life are far from being real.

Our perspective recognises diversity in individual life options.

Our perspective is internationalist, opens Europe to the world and promotes cultural exchanges, cooperation and new solidarity.

Our perspective considers the Mediterranean a region fundamental to world peace.

Change is a necessity. There is a profound gap between citizens and political elites. The victory of the "No" forces against the Constitutional Treaty expresses the degree of this split. The majority of the population is not against Europe. The majority voted against the liberal and arrogant policies that have brought the crisis into our daily lives. Today, the treaty is politically dead. This fact is the basis for an expanded debate on the present, so that the future of Europe can look forward to a new prosperity. We will participate in a broad citizens’ movement that will work for a manifesto or a charter of the social and political rights appropriate to the Europe we want. Yes, we can change Europe!

The European Left, http://www.european-left.org/

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Last edited by Rory Winter on Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EU is unreformable.

How many of the above aspirations have been achieved by the European Left since 2005?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: The European Left's Athens Declaration, 2005 Reply with quote

Rory Winter wrote:
As there is so much anti-European slagging that goes on by a dedicated bunch of Europhobes on this site, I thought it a good idea to let readers see a little of the other Europe which they would otherwise not hear much about.


Obscuring the issue as "anti-European" rather than anti-federalism is your obvious misdirection here.

The further the rulers can distance their rules from the people the more secure the authority from question or actions by those subjected to that rule. Placing authority 1000's of miles away, and many layers away from those you can touch, makes it a nifty place the rulers have desired for centuries.

Learning from the USA experiment in communism the rulers in the EU have decided to use media and schooling to convince the subjects they need rule, they need to be disarmed, they need a big central government.

Once your government passes lawmaking to the EU you can never change a law locally (that is even in your Nation as you understand it today) again. Think about California that legalized marijuana but the USA will still storm your house and put you in jail even with your state authorized stoner card. Federal governments are no better than papal rule or rule by some divine right queen.

I am amazed to watch the way federal rule is being steamrolled into Europe. How can you allow ALL your politicians to go back on their promise?

I am most amazed how docile the queen’s subjects are and it gives pause to any reason to defend those subjects from the abuse they will endure. Pretty pathetic subjects will make better cartoons for royal consumption and are not worthy of energy expenditure.

By the way I love the many tounges no vote. That is the set up.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you seem to have the powers of divine all-knowingness which enables you to pontificate in this manner! Wink

Instead of sitting around griping and supporting the xenophobes who object to all things European because they are "un-British" -an imperialist, racist attitude that the slaves learnt from their masters- we, on the European Left, would rather stay together and fight capitalism from within.

While we're doing that you people will just cast your clouds of doom & gloom everywhere and by doing so contribute to the xenophobic arrogance of Britain's contemporary blimps.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Obscuring the issue as "anti-European" rather than anti-federalism is your obvious misdirection here.


As a north American (?) you probably aren't aware of the prevailing British attitude that somehow they remain superior to other cultures and nationalities. This bigotry is likely to have been the result of ingrained imperialist attitudes left over from its long-gone Empire.

It's also to do with the deep racism that lies at the root of both Anglo-Saxon cultures, the UK and the USA, which are essentially social fascist in nature, if not overtly politically.

It's no accident that US imperialism's biggest supporter is the UK government which is tied to US imperialism in a kamikaze death-pact. Britain's Europhobes should be addressing themselves to that danger rather than projecting their misery onto their fellow-Europeans.

BTW, the reason why Europeans (and that includes the Brits) have no vote is because the Council of Ministers which represents national governments remains all-powerful by not allowing the European Parliament the power it deserves. Most of these Europhobes on this list don't care & don't give a damn that this is so. All they want is to vent their spleen and blame all their woes on "Europe" while ignoring the real enemies such as Trilateralism, NATO and Britain's vassal status to the USA.

Most of our so-called anti-terror laws were modelled and established on Washington, DC's command. Our politicians are nothing more than its quislings or -to put it another way- traitors who obey US imperialism.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Obscuring the issue as "anti-European" rather than anti-federalism is your obvious misdirection here.


No, obscuring the issue as 'anti-European' rather than 'anti-EU' is Rory's obvious misdirection here. IMHO.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory Winter wrote:
It's no accident that US imperialism's biggest supporter is the UK government which is tied to US imperialism in a kamikaze death-pact. Britain's Europhobes should be addressing themselves to that danger rather than projecting their misery onto their fellow-Europeans.
...
Most of our so-called anti-terror laws were modelled and established on Washington, DC's command. Our politicians are nothing more than its quislings or -to put it another way- traitors who obey US imperialism.

Can you please also point out that Putin is a very bad man as well or "Gruts" will be admonishing you.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
obscuring the issue as 'anti-European' rather than 'anti-EU'


No, I am NOT obscuring the issue by attempting to confuse anti-Europeanism with opposition to the European Union. Having lived in Britain for the last 50 years I am only too aware of the peculiar British attitude that somewhow they are culturally superior to others.

I believe that this false sense of superiority is inherited from centuries of social conditioning of the ruled by the rulers.


"Broon Fudge": The Problem as depicted by Steve Bell

One can look into the history of the British adventure in India and see how the change took there, for example. Until the Brits got a real foothold in India they remained open to Indian culture, some even adopting it for themselves and marrying Indians. But once Britain got a strangle-hold on India it started importing clerics who started to preach the innate superiority of British ways. And from that came the colour bar.

For centuries, British imperialist rulers brain-washed their masses into believing the lie that Britannia not only ruled the waves but that in some mysterious way that Brits were of a superior culture. Despite the loss of Empire (it was effectively handed-over to the USA during WWII) this ingrained attitude remained.

You can see it in British expat communities abroad who mostly live in colonies and refuse to learn the national language. The locals treat them with bemusement and pity. When I lived in Spain I saw it all the time and often found myself translating for Brits who were hopelessly lost and tongue-tied.

Despite 35 years within what is now the EU Britain remains a hopelessly monolingual culture. Apart from the cultural insularity that envelops one as soon as one steps onto these shores there is absolutely no incentive to learn a second or third language.

This same insularity also attributes some mystical power to the Pound Sterling and imperial measures etc. Somehow, the impending loss of the same is seen as a loss of independence. While these emotions run rampant through the British mind the fact that they lost their independence a long time ago to their North American rulers is conveniently shoved away. The fact that their rulers speak (approximately) the same language makes it easier as through them the Anglo-Saxon can remain superior.

As Rory Bremner points out the Brits hang onto Uncle Sam's coat-tails, the bully on the block, while making raspberries at Uncle Sam's enemies. Hence, every war that US imperialism initiates Britain is expected to join. The USUK is effectively one with the rest of the English-speaking world, Canada and Australia in a planetary Anglo-Saxon Alliance.

It is for this reason that successive British governments strenuously resist a joint European Defence Policy which would draw Britain away from the USA. A common USUK world imperialist policy is now non-negotiable. Britain is in a kamikaze death-pact with the USA. When the Dollar goes down the Pound goes with it. So much for the common emotional attachment to a piece of paper with the head of an imported German monarch on it!

For centuries, Brits have been educated into believing the myth of the 'free-born Englishman'. But there never was a free-born Englishman outside of its minority ruling clique who bought their freedoms and were free by dint of their wealth. The myth grew out of Britain's imperial era and was adopted by the upper middle classes in an extremely jingoistic way, ie whereas the Englishman was considered to be free-born his unfortunate Continental neighbours still lived in totalitarian darkness.

It is precisely from that myth that present attitudes grew. Nothing has changed: all too many Brits continue to believe that adopting Continental ways will somehow destroy their freedoms. The fact that the real threat comes from their North American rulers is never considered. For how could the threat come from fellow Engish-speakers? No, it comes from frogs, dagoes and krauts as it has always done! (Note: the English have a pejorative insult for every other nationality. Why?)

The steadfast refusal of Europhobes on this list to seriously analyse the politics of the EU, to ask why the Council of Ministers refuses to give the European Parliament any real power and to blame the Parliament for the Council's policies, to studiously ignore the effects of Trilateralism (Trilateralism? What's that? I hear them say) and NATO on our national institutions, show up their bigotries for what they are: a xenophobia based on emotional attachments to a mystical national superiority that never was.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory Winter wrote:
I am only too aware of the peculiar British attitude that somewhow they are culturally superior to others.

You are mistaken, it is the EU imposing their culture on us not vice-versa.

I'm surprised that you don't like Broon - he is pro EU just like you.

I have a couple of questions for you:

What are the benefits to the UK of EU membership?

Which of the above aspirations have the European Left achieved since 2005?

Have a nice Easter!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You are mistaken, it is the EU imposing their culture on us


I think you mean the US imposing its culture, don't you? Britain is swamped with imported US culture at every level and the BBC plays an active role in upping the ante in this regard.

But where is "European culture" taking over? The metric system which, if you look at its history, was invented by an Englishman. What else?

Actually, coming from a Norwegian, the fact that you settle on culture as the problem is very interesting. Norwegian aloofness from joining the EU if looked at is as much about cultural separatism as anything else. I won't go into that any further because it opens up all kinds of possiblities about why Norwegians might feel culturally separate.

But when superimposed on popular British cultural separatism (based on an imperialist hangover) it becomes extremely dangerous. It begins to adopt a distinct flavour of social fascism where all things "European" become the scapegoat for all our ills and woes.

It also supposes that Brits are in some way not European, a mental disconnect which is the result of centuries of brain-washing by its ruling classes when British imperialism could do no wrong and was, on the contrary, a good, civilizing influence on the rest of the world, especially amongst the black and brown-skinned hordes living in mud huts.

"Fog in the Channel, Continent cut off"!

The parallels between Kipling's 'White Man's Burden' and the Protestant North American excuse for wiping out the Native Americans, 'Manifest Destiny', are all too uncomfortably close. And so are the connections between Protestantism, Lutheranism, racism and anti-semitism.

Your comments about Europeans "imposing" their culture reminds me of all that. The fact that it is a total falsehood is one thing, the fact that you should even think it suggests something far worse, ie that your thinking is based on a social fascist outlook.

You wouldn't be the only one on the 911 Truth Forum to be coming from those quarters. There are all kind of liqourice allsort libertarians here present banging their own sectarian drums. But they all have one thing in comon: they are wreckers who would be quite happy for Britain to pull out of the European Union and live in its own separatist paradise.

Yet, if asked, what option they would have for British withdrawal, they have none. And what would they settle on next, once they had their Britannic Eden? No doubt they would insist on banning all immigration ... although most Europhobes already do this.

Would they look at the real source of New World Order politics in Britain's adherence to NATO and Trilateralism? Not a chance. And most of them wouldn't recognize a Trilateralist if they saw one. Would they campaign against the British police state, much of which has been imported by Britain's Atlanticist politicians from Washington DC and Langley, Virginia?

Why should they, after all they've been quite happy to sit by and allow all of this to happen until now? No, it's far safer to sit in comfort and live in denial while indulging in the typical British pastime of whingeing at the scpegoat "Europe" which is the source of all our troubles.

Because the really difficult and unpleasant part would be to look at the reality of our sad predicament in this satellite state and ask ourselves quite how we could have got into this awful mess. Now that would really require some effort which few amongst us present would be prepared to make.

Living with our illusions may appear much simpler and safer. While that may be the case let it never be forgotten that that too is nothing more than yet another delusion. For it is precisely that sort of complacency that leads to our unmaking and which leads us down the road to a fascism for which we and we alone will bear the responsibility.

We are the makers of our own destiny.

Quote:
I'm surprised that you don't like Broon - he is pro EU just like you


Again, typical of you to think in such monolithic terms. Broon may grudingly support the EU for reasons of political expediency, no more. He and I are, however, light years apart in our political views. Something you Europhobes don't understand could be the case, tarring everyone as you do with the same brush.

Nor do you seem to understand that those on the Continent who opposed an EU Constitution did so for fear that it was a Neoliberal, globalist doctrine which would take away their jobs and protectionist policies.

Or, more widely, because they opposed something in the Constitution and not because they wanted to withdraw from the EU.

Unlike the British Europhobes, they didn't see that opposition as a way of withdrawing from the European project. So, to ally with them is also an utterly false position to take.

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Last edited by Rory Winter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:37 pm; edited 9 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question of cultural superiority is a big one, involving a massive CIA campaign, which is a separate issue from the EU Constitution - though I have to say, a very relevant one.

For that reason, I am just about to open up a new thread on Cultural Imperialism.

See some of you there Wink

Regards,

Ian.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leiff wrote:
You are mistaken, it is the EU imposing their culture on us

Rory Winter wrote:
But where is "European culture" taking over?


I thought you told us that:
Rory Winter wrote:
No, I am NOT obscuring the issue by attempting to confuse anti-Europeanism with opposition to the European Union.


Rory, it is you who is delusional.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Rory, it is you who is delusional.


What are you suggesting? How do the quotes you make amount to my being delusional? You pick on one or two sentences (quite in what context remains a mystery) and you avoid the bulk. In my dictionary that's called sniping.

As for the EU and Europeanism, I assume when you refer to "EU culture" you mean "European culture" as the EU, per se, cannot have a culture as it is at present a conglomerate of nation states, cultures and languages ... including British culture (itself European!)

So the question remains: where is (and how could) European (or as you refer to it, EU) culture be "taking over"?

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Last edited by Rory Winter on Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:32 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For that reason, I am just about to open up a new thread on Cultural Imperialism.


Looking forward to this.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Learning from the USA experiment in communism - 911 Eyewitness


Huh? Just shows what a bunch of nutters we find on this Forum! The US experimented with communism? My giddy aunt!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory my friend - you've pitched your proverbial tent in the wrong place here. The formation of the EU is a key part of the NWO's plan for world domination - you only have to look at the ghastly people behind the whole European Project starting with the Nazis during WW2. All the information is out there if your pride and ego will allow you to do your own research with an open mind. I was a firm believer in the EEC for business reasons and voted for it back in the 70s, and I was still largely supporting the EU up until five years ago when information I didn't know about was sent to me. After considering the facts carefully, I did a 'U' turn, swallowed my silly pride, and started campaigning to wake people up about the 'Big Picture' which, unfortunately, you still cannot see.

Your overwhelming desire to see an 'independent' Scotland is obviously affecting your judgement and ability to see things clearly. I can assure you that your beloved Scotland will be divided up by the EU Superstate as part of their eventual desire to break up the EU member nations into EU Governing Regions which will mix up forever the old nations boundaries and frontiers,including ,as I say, Scotland and so remove patriotism and that natural sense of belonging to somewhere. Anonymous Orwellian Regions are the future if people like you Rory don't wake up.

Your dislike of UKIP (attack against Pikey on another thread) is also extremely misguided. We must work with anyone (except the totally unacceptable Far Right parties like the BNP who are probably orchestrated and funded by the NWO to steer people in a particular direction) to expose the treasonous network (Common Purpose and the like) which has been set up to ensure that the UK doesn't work properly and which prepares a resource pool of mindless future leaders/robots to take over for when the EU Regions are eventually set up.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_artic le_id=403522&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490

Swallow your pride and open up your mind to the possibility that you might just be wrong. Trust me, I've done this on quite a few occasions and will continue to do so as the truth continues to come out.

Best wishes

Justin

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was a firm believer in the "Common Market" project at one time too and even saw fixed currency rates as beneficial, though saw a single currency as a great loss of independance. Free movement of goods and trade sounds great but when a European Parliament was formed and we were given European passports and somehow our very nationality was to be subsumed into a bigger and bigger project it all started to sound pretty horrible. In the light of 9/11 and the agenda of shady powerful people it is a MUST that we stop the European project imho. The latest deceit re the referendum we are no longer going to get sums it up. We are being forced by an elite few into this whether we like it or not. Something stinks!!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like Fascism but is in reality Judeo-Communism. Mossad agent leading France. How did that happen?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How come Thatcher withers on the vine and Major goes to Carlyle? Edwina Currie might have putin a good word for him...
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your dislike of UKIP (attack against Pikey on another thread) is also extremely misguided. We must work with anyone


How arrogant of you, Justin, to suggest I'm in the wrong place here! The 911 Truth Forum is about just that, ie the truth about 911, though I realize it has attracted all kinds of oddbods with views across the spectrum from reptilian spotters, xenophobes to closet fascists.

Let me assure you young Justin. You are far from having conducted a coup d'etat and taken over this Forum yet. And even if you did and the news got around the Forum would soon lose most of its support.

The 911 Truth Forum, as far as I am aware, has no affiliation to UKIP or any other political party. Hence no none from any political party should be allowed to abuse the Calendar in the way Pikey has. That event should be removed.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that the time has come when both the administratorship and web-hosting of the 911 Truth site is up for reorganization I would make a request to all those responsible for that reorganization that a future 911 Forum has a clear disaffiliation from all political parties so that things like the 7-Day Calendar are not used for advertising party conferences such as the UKIP one in Morecambe.

For if it is the case that the vocal UKIP-supporting clique that exists on this Forum are to be allowed to take it over via the back door than I will have nothing to do with it and will do everything I can to let the Internet world know what has happened. I am sure there are many other Forum readers who would feel the same.

I sincerely hope that such a situation will never come about. But one thing is clear: this forum does not officially support UKIP or any other political party and should remain so. Hence it is intolerable that the 911 Forum Calendar should be used for pro-UKIP attendance of UKIP Party Conferences.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear Rory - I'm not saying you shouldn't be on the Forum, I'm saying you've 'pitched your proverbial tent in the wrong place' concerning your support for the EU. As anyone who knows me will tell you, I'm not 'arrogant' nor am I 'young' (I'm 52). I'm just saddened that you've skimmed over what I had to say and obviously not visited the two links I gave you to have a look at. Will you please do so and let me have your comments.

FYI I've never been to a UKIP meeting in my life, nor am I a member. There is a broad church of support now from a wide range of people who have real doubts about the EU - UKIP is just a part of that campaign and some EU sceptics, like Brian Gerrish, have real problems with UKIP's leadership.

BTW, do you know about Common Purpose and the accusations levelled at this charity - what are your comments about a pro-EU Fifth Column operating to destabilise Britain from within?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are two matters going on in parallel here: first is the way the 911 Forum Calendar is being used to advertise UKIP Conferences. Since making my initial complaint about this I have been told that the Calendar has been used in the past to advertise Party conferences in order to encourage 911 Truthers to attend & lobby them.

Well, that is one thing & I would wholeheartedly support that tactic. But to brazenly advertise a Conference as Pikey has done in order to promote his anti-EU views and for purposes of recruitment is quite another and something that should not be allowed. To permit it to go ahead as is happening shows a clear pro-UKIP bias and I am disturbed that, despite appeals, nothing has been done to remove this item. And it looks like nothing will be done about it. That is why I have asked that when the reorganization of this Forum and its administration takes place that a clear disaffiliation is made between the Forum and party politics.

Secondly, there are the issues you mention in your last two posts. I personally have no objection to a federated EU which as far as Scotland is concerned will be no worse a situation than we have at present with continued rule from London. Given a choice between Brussels and London, I would choose Brussels where there exists more sympathy for Scottish self-determination than there ever there could be in London.

I would be delighted to see the present anomaly calling itself the 'United Kingdom' dismantled for, as mentioned before, I wholeheartedly support the view of Scotland's great Socialist, John McLaine, that the day Scotland gets its independence will be the day British imperialism is finally put to rest.

Whereas I see no threat to Scottish self-determination from Brussels I acknowledge that that threat has and always will be from London. And I do not expect London will ever allow us our independence without using every dirty trick, including its secret services, it can think of.

For once the UK is dismantled together with it will disappear the abominable 'special relationship' our rulers have with Washington DC which keeps the Anglo-Saxon Alliance alive ... something that the rest of the world would greatly appreciate and thank little Scotland for in the years to come.

You see, I simply don't accept this empty talk of our freedoms under threat from the European Union. Last made by our Norwegian friend, Leiff, and when challenged the allegation could not be substantiated. And when I ask him and his fellow-travellers what option they would give us to withdrawal from the EU, the answer comes there none. For both the allegation of a loss of freedom and the possibility of an option are both nonsense.

The USA is based upon a federation. So is Canada. So is Australia. I hear no one complaining that living within a federation as they do detracts from their freedom. So why should living in a federated EU detract from our freedom?

You English may still delude yourselves that living in a two-party dictatorship affords you some freedom. Or that drinking pints and driving on the left somehow gives you an edge on liberty. But that's your business and your delusion. If you insist on the stubborn belief that the Westminster parliament is a people's democracy then, again, that's your problem.

We don't see it and when I say 'we' I mean even those Scots who haven't yet been convinced of the need for independence. And if they haven't yet been convinced it's because of a sense of insecurity of going it alone rather than any love of London-rule. Given a choice between English imperialism and Europeanism we will still opt for the thinking of the Auld Alliance and opt for continental Europe. As an ex-regional councillor I can vouch for that. When it comes to choosing between Westminster and Brussels Scottish councils will always choose Brussels because that's where the big money comes from in Regional Development funds.

I'm not suggesting that this has anything to do with Harry Lauder jokes about an alleged Scots mean-ness. But big money talks and the big money comes from Brussels, not London. Where London is concerned, the opposite prevails as all the wealth of Scottish oil has been siphoned away from Scotland by London into the hands of the multinationals. London does us no favours and we know it.

So those are just a few rejoinders regarding federalism. I will read your links and comment later on them.

Your first article in the Brussels Journal -known for its anti-EU stance- is ill-chosen. It quotes Vladimir Bukovsky who I remember very well as a right-wing 'dissident' from the 'eighties. Bukovsky was presented to us by the anti-Soviet western press as a great fighter for liberation. What was never mentioned was that Bukovsky was a leading member of the CIA-run Congress for Cultural Freedom (CCF) and was quite happy to work with the CIA.

So anything coming from Bukovsky's mouth will not impress me. Indeed, it will have quite the opposite effect, leading me to ask if Bukovsky is still working with his erstwhile friends in the CIA to attempt to destabilize the EU with this kind of nonsensical propaganda. And look at the people who invited him to Brussels! What are their connections, I wonder, with the CIA?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory Winter wrote:
You see, I simply don't accept this empty talk of our freedoms under threat from the European Union. Last made by our Norwegian friend, Leiff, and when challenged the allegation could not be substantiated.


OK Rory, I'll answer your questions and then you can answer mine! (or lose any remaining credibility on this forum)

The main threat to our freedoms from the EU is derived from the replacement of our Common Law Jurisdiction with Corpus Juris. Corpus Juris is such a threat to our freedoms because there is no presumption of innocence and no juries.

Regarding withdrawal from the EU - we should ASAP. Instead we should have a trading agreement with them - just like we voted for in the first place!

Now onto my questions:

What are the benefits to the UK of EU membership?

Which of the above aspirations have the European Left achieved since 2005?

RSVP

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You talk about the threat to Common Law jurisdiction but mention nothing of the fact that the sacrosanct habeas corpus has already been removed by the New Labour government's entirely spurious 'war on terror'. 'Terrorists' were first identified as Muslim fundamentalists and now increasingly as something more, ie anyone who represents a threat to the State.

"No presumption of innocence"? What presumption of innocence do our racist juries give British Muslims who become victims to racist prosecutions by a racist police force and Government?!!

All this has already been done by Westminster's traitor politicians with no urging from Brussels. All the urging came from Washington DC!

These very same politicians deny us the same rights our fellow-EU citizens have under the new Treaty of Human Rights, basic rights which when denied us paved the way for a British police state.

That, by the way, is a key factor benefit which our own UK politicians have chosen to deny us. Why? Because they would rather continue to rule over us as subjects in a serfdom than citizens of a confederation.

And there's nothing wrong in a confederation you know. If you think there is, tell that to the Swiss.

Yet you ignore all that and focus your prejudiced views on the above! Can't you see the huge elephant in the living room which it is politically expedient for you and your ilk to ignore? Can't you see that by constantly whingeing on and blaming 'Europe' for all our ills people like you are responsible for having not done anything about letting the real culprits get away with what they have done to Britain?

And when I say real culprits, let me be quite clear: I mean the traitorous politicians who, obeying Washington's command, have turned Britain into a police state. Brussels had nothing to do with that. It was a unilateral decision made by British traitors who obey Washington and scorn their own people as witness their actions in the Iraq invasion.

You talk about Britain doing a Norway by withdrawing from the EU and going it alone. What nonsense, when the UK is itself in the process of breaking-up! If you people in England want to do that, go ahead. Don't count on us in Scotland following you in your hand-cart to hell.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory my friend, you've given me a damn good laugh. I love your views. Here's to a new Jacobite Rebellion. Can I be the new Bonnie Prince Charlie.....I'm sure with a new generation of Highlanders like yourself behind me I'd get further than Derby!

Before you accuse me of being a Sassenach, you had better know that I'm a quarter Irish, a quarter French, a quarter English and a quarter Scottish. Clan Stewart of Appin is my Grandfather's clan so you had better pay homage to me asap! Very Happy

Good luck to your wonderfully quiant views....but you had better be ready for when the NWO takes away your freedoms!

Best wishes

Justin

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