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TonyGosling
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TonyGosling
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eogz
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Calm down dear its only an advert.
Trying to stay reasonably impartial, what seems to be happening here is there is discussion from different camps, each of which are misunderstanding each other through their own political and personal beliefs.
Tell me if I am wrong, I am however enjoying the debate, providing it avoids unnecessary conflict.
We have:
1. Pro Europeans - Those members of this forum who are in full support of a democratic and integrated union hopefully tearing Britain away from its colonial and special relationship past with the US.
2. Anti NWOers - Who will remain mainly anti EU, they see the formation of the EU as one of the steps taken to create a totalitarian One World Government to which we can kiss goodbye to 80% (roughly) of the world's population, hence lending us all to serfdom and virtual slavery.
However it does seem that the two camps have common ground.
Both disagree that the EU Commission should hold power over the Parliament (seems very undemocratic to me), Pro Euro's hope that this will be changed and a more democratic Union will emerge.
Anti-NWO believe that any EU system is still part of the plan for World Government and so is bad and will eventually result in our being enslaved by the Elite.
I know there are deeper issues here, but guys when you argue remember where your opponents are coming from, Pro's remember that Anti-NWO people aren't right wing loonies but are concerned about the larger picture as they see it.
Anti-NWOers remember that Pro's are not wanting a NWO but a fairer governmental structure and a Union with those nations closer to us.
However much you argue it should be remembered you all come from fundamentally different views, so don't take offence at one another for being enthusiastic in your beliefs.
Yes there are personal issues here to but I feel it is essential to point out the bigger picture here.
I know this won't change anything but at least I feel better about saying it.
By the way I'm not a fence sitter and hold myself in the Anti-NWO camp of things.
Argue on boys, argue on. |
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Rory Winter
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Location: Free Scotland!
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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Eogz, many thanks for a very fair summary of the problem. I would just like to add one or two rejoinders to what I feel is a much-needed dose of sanity which your post brings to this thread. 
As a pro-United Europe advocate I do not simply 'hope' for a strong, sovereign Europarliament, as a European citizen I demand it as the sovereign right of the European people! Not for a moment am I naive enough to think that it will be handed down to us by a bunch of Ministers or their civil servants in the Commission. The only way we'll get a strong Parliament is to campaign and struggle for it.
Since the early 'eighties I have been researching groups like the NWO Bilderbergers, Trilateralists, CFR, Chatham House (ex RIIA), the Freedom Association and more recently the Henry Jackson Society, the PNAC etc. So not only do I understand where the anti-NWOers are coming from I am most definitely one of them myself.
As a a Red-Green I see no threat from a European Federation which is constituted on democratic, representational and decentralised lines. Nor do most Greens on the Continent. European antipathy originates mainly from Britain, less in Scotland and more so south of the border. I maintain that this has much to do with a post-imperial hangover as a genuine concern about a so-called 'fascist Europe'.
As Truthmonger has said that accusation made against me is a pile of *.
Despite my repeated call for a free and open dialogue I am consistently accused of "blocking debate." More recently I have been warned that my posts would be removed elsewhere. I'll leave it to everyone else to decide quite who it is who's doing the blocking.
But you know, that's fine by me. If I am undermining debate of a 'fascist Europe' among a certain group of individuals here I shall post to another area to carry on a thread devoted to the controversy where, incidentally, all are welcome notwithstanding their views. If we cannot have open discussion here then let it be somewhere else in the Forum that is suitable.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=114020#114020
And if I am to continue my thread of argument in Controversies then it is only fair to all our readers that the settings are switched on to allow posts in the Controversies folder to be displayed in the Latest News column. At present they are not, making the Controversies folder a place of quarantine & banishment.
Or as I am a Scot, perhaps the appropriate thing to do is for me to seek safe haven from my southern assailants within the autonomy of the Scottish Group?
I am happy to choose either on these terms of fair play. If I cannot publish even with my Scottish Group then it means that in reality that that Group has no real autonomy and is no more than a rump of the UK forum.
So what is it to be? One way or another the discussion must be allowed to go on freely.
_________________
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http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
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Last edited by Rory Winter on Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:20 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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Location: South London
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| eogz wrote: | Calm down dear its only an advert.
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Hi P
Good to see you posting again. Was afraid your personal troubles had led you to drop out altogether. Hope things are a bit better for you now and remember, as you say yourself, "It's all an illusion" 
All the best
Noel |
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rory Winter wrote: |
As a pro-United Europe advocate I do not simply 'hope' for a strong, sovereign Europarliament, as a European citizen I demand it as the sovereign right of the European people! Not for a moment am I naive enough to think that it will be handed down to us by a bunch of Ministers or their civil servants in the Commission. The only way we'll get a strong Parliament is to campaign and struggle for it. |
You are right, Rory. No privileged class ever gives away power without being forced to do so by the people. Democratic accountability in Europe will only come about through people's campaigning for it. If all the energy currently being put into whinging about the EU were actually put into campaigning for the Commission and the Council of Minsiters to be accountable to our elected representatives in the parliament, we would be on the road towards a true European democracy. The small degree of democracy in Britain and in other countries which is still enjoyed by the people, has been won through such struggle over time.
| Rory Winter wrote: |
Since the early 'eighties I have been researching groups like the NWO Bilderbergers, Trilateralists, CFR, Chatham House (ex RIIA), the Freedom Association and more recently the Henry Jackson Society, the PNAC etc. So not only do I understand where the anti-NWOers are coming from I am most definitely one of them myself. |
You are right too to be worried about the NWO. It operates clandestinely through a network of societies, clubs, cults, transnational corporations etc, to subvert democratic institutions to serve the will of the upper echelons of the capitalist class, the mega-rich who seek to control world affairs from the shadows. It is through their influence that we get false flag operations, and the ensuing wars and curtailment of liberties. The infuence of this fraternity in the shadows is in my view currently most strongly felt through the Washington government and its global empire, closely supported by its patsy (or perhaps mole) the UK government and establishment.
I have no doubt that they are operating too within the European institutions, but democratic forces in the rest of Europe have so far put up sufficient resistance to prevent most countries being co-opted into the war in Iraq (less so in Afghanistan) and sufficient resistance to have the Charter of Fundamental Rights incorporated into the Lisbon Treaty and applicable as law in every EU country except the UK.
| Rory Winter wrote: |
So what is it to be? One way or another the discussion must be allowed to go on freely. |
Free discussion of this must be allowed and threats to put this discussion in the dustbin if people dare post opinions contrary to the administrator's personal views are seriously out of order on a free discussion website. |
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Pikey
Banned
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1491
Location: North Lancashire
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Free discussion of this must be allowed and threats to put this discussion in the dustbin if people dare post opinions contrary to the administrator's personal views are seriously out of order on a free discussion website. |
Totally agree Noel.
Traffic volume on this site is on the up. When I logged in yesterday there were 420 guests viewing. Further reason why we must not lose the website url/domain name.
I actually feel the overall quality of the content on the site is improving and it is becoming more civilised possibly due to a more disciplined site and pro active moderation.
Well done admin/moderators and particularly Tony  just a bit of fine tuning required yet though and imo Noel points you in the right direction there Tony
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Rory Winter
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Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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Location: Free Scotland!
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: The Lesser gods of Intolerance |
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| Quote: | | Free discussion of this must be allowed and threats to put this discussion in the dustbin if people dare post opinions contrary to the administrator's personal views are seriously out of order on a free discussion website. |
And yet I have had no choice but to take the threats at face value believing that the Administrator might do anything he wishes at the slightest whim with no concern for the damage this does to open discussion and no qualms about having to answer for such arbitrary behaviour.
Just now I am feeling as if I have experienced a form of terrorism by an individual who is part of a group of persons who make a lot of noise about freedom, rights, threats to our liberty and the 'fascist EU' who in practice are perpetrators of the worst form of ideological coercion more reminiscent of Hitler and Stalin. If this is what they mean by freedom then, frankly, I want none of it! If this is the kind of Britain they are protecting from 'EU fascism' then, damn it, I'm safer with the Human Rights that that 'fascism' allows me!
These people talk about debate and discussion. But in reality, when you attempt any of that you are treated either with scorn and insults or by an ominous silence. In either case there is a plain refusal to engage in discussion or debate. What else is there left but some "I, Spartacus" shouting of slogans and the venting of emotional bile?
Far from the creative use of individual and collective energy and the kind of campaigns that you and I are calling for all we're getting is a destructive, totally negative exercise in paranoia and scape-goating. I ask, are these the British-values that we are expected to treasure and be so proud of? If they are I would say that the sooner they are disposed of on a garbage heap of anti-culture the better a chance of something decent surviving which gives the rest of us a chance to aspire to a more civilised way of living.
For it is this brutish type of intolerance that has a common source with bigotry, racism, race supremacy, homophobia, anti-semitism and fascism. It is the kind of fevered mind which casts its own fears and nightmares onto 'the other' seeing there all its inner fears projected onto a three dimensional world of conspiracists who, as the phobic Brian Gerrish puts it, ARE OUT TO KILL YOU.
We are no longer dealing with sane minds but with those of phobics and paranoids who see reds everywhere and foreigners out to get them. It's a truly Strangelovian twilight world we find ourselves being dragged into.
| Quote: | The people who are trying, with some degree of success, to undermine these basic endeavors of the progressive movement and the progressive media need to be exposed for what they are -- whether they fall into the category of well-meaning but misguided fanatics or undercover government agents quite purposefully and systematically working to spread disinformation and sow confusion and distrust.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=14179 |
So what really is the point of trying reason and logicality when what we are dealing with is a much darker thing that has about it the stench of tribalism and its divisive bigotries?
If this is the best that the 911 Truth Movement freedom can do then I fear for all the good people here and I see no hope for the goodness that our cause should be about defending. We are being collectively hijacked by the demigods of Intolerance.
_________________
One Planet - One People - One Destiny
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http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
http://x09.eu/splash/
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Last edited by Rory Winter on Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:10 am; edited 14 times in total |
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: Re: The European Left's Athens Declaration, 2005 |
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| 911Eyewitness wrote: |
The further the rulers can distance their rules from the people the more secure the authority from question or actions by those subjected to that rule. Placing authority 1000's of miles away, and many layers away from those you can touch, makes it a nifty place the rulers have desired for centuries.
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Once your government passes lawmaking to the EU you can never change a law locally (that is even in your Nation as you understand it today) again. Think about California that legalized marijuana but the USA will still storm your house and put you in jail even with your state authorized stoner card. Federal governments are no better than papal rule or rule by some divine right queen.
I am amazed to watch the way federal rule is being steamrolled into Europe. How can you allow ALL your politicians to go back on their promise?
I am most amazed how docile the queen’s subjects are and it gives pause to any reason to defend those subjects from the abuse they will endure. Pretty pathetic subjects will make better cartoons for royal consumption and are not worthy of energy expenditure.
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You raise important points here, Eyewitness. Federalism properly understood incorporates the principle of "subsidiarity" defined by Wikipedia as follows:
Subsidiarity is the principle which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest (or, the lowest) competent authority. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level. The concept is applicable in the fields of government, political science, cybernetics and management. Subsidiarity is, ideally or in principle, one of the features of federalism.
The word subsidiarity is derived from the Latin word subsidiarius and has its origins in Catholic social teaching. The concept or principle is found in several constitutions around the world (see for example the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution).
It is presently best known as a fundamental principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where member states agree that action of individual countries is insufficient. The principle was established in the 1992 Treaty of Maastricht, and is contained within the proposed new Treaty establishing a constitution for Europe. However, at the local level it was already a key element of the European Charter of Local Self-Government, an instrument of the Council of Europe promulgated in 1985 (see Article 4, Paragraph 3 of the Charter) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity
I suspect that despite the various statutes incorporating this principle into EU law, the principle is often ignored or overlooked within Europe due to pressure from the transnational corporations. For example, the EU has banned alternative remedies from being sold to the public due to pressure from the drug companies. I don't think such decisions should be taken at continental level at all. This is the sort of issue which should be dealt with locally if at all. But much of what is happening in the EU is dictated by the liberal economic philosophy that there must be a level playing-field in which firms can compete with each other on equal terms. That is inherent in the capitalist system under which, like it or not (and I don't like it) we live.
The answer to my mind is for the Queen's subjects  and all European citizens to campaign for fully accountable federal democracy, including the principle of subsidiarity, throughout Europe, rather than an attempt to divide Europe again into mutually hostile states.
What solution do those who regard the EU as nothing but a fascist NWO plot propose to tackle these real problems? That is what I am failing to hear on this forum. |
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Rory Winter
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Rory Winter
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911Eyewitness
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Joined: 29 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Re: The European Left's Athens Declaration, 2005 |
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| xmasdale wrote: | | 911Eyewitness wrote: |
The further the rulers can distance their rules from the people the more secure the authority from question or actions by those subjected to that rule. Placing authority 1000's of miles away, and many layers away from those you can touch, makes it a nifty place the rulers have desired for centuries.
---
Once your government passes lawmaking to the EU you can never change a law locally (that is even in your Nation as you understand it today) again. Think about California that legalized marijuana but the USA will still storm your house and put you in jail even with your state authorized stoner card. Federal governments are no better than papal rule or rule by some divine right queen.
I am amazed to watch the way federal rule is being steamrolled into Europe. How can you allow ALL your politicians to go back on their promise?
I am most amazed how docile the queen’s subjects are and it gives pause to any reason to defend those subjects from the abuse they will endure. Pretty pathetic subjects will make better cartoons for royal consumption and are not worthy of energy expenditure.
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You raise important points here, Eyewitness. Federalism properly understood incorporates the principle of "subsidiarity" defined by Wikipedia as follows:
[i]Subsidiarity is the principle which states that matters ought to be handled by the smallest (or, the lowest) competent authority. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level. The [/b]
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Well, that is called "competency" in the EU Constitution where you are already "European Citizens" with your four rights. Once the EU takes a competency you can never have it back. They have already taken just about everything and most important your rights, all four of them. Understanding the rise of distant federal rule where you have no vote at all under appointed lawmakers who have full immunity forever may take a bit of a twist. They do not teach you this kind of stuff.
| xmasdale wrote: |
For example, the EU has banned alternative remedies from being sold to the public due to pressure from the drug companies. |
It was not so much banning alternative remedies it was banning cottage industry. That is to say cut out the simple farmer, hand crafter or small business by making it impossible to produce. Leaving power with those with the money for massive production. Take for instance the poor farmers who gather berries and sell them at roadside. Illegal. No UPC code, no packaging, sold to you as not safe. That is what the alternative remedies did - no more sage, mint, or other herbs without packaging and EU Multilanguage label. So, how do those who live from the land do this?
I saw in the UK some of the finest special sweet apples rotting on trees because they are not allowed to be sold. These apples in Kent are "too small" and are not able to be sold anywhere under EU law. They have been a special treat in the area for hundreds of years.
| xmasdale wrote: |
But much of what is happening in the EU is dictated by the liberal economic philosophy that there must be a level playing-field in which firms can compete with each other on equal terms. That is inherent in the capitalist system under which, like it or not (and I don't like it) we live.
. |
Pretty sad outlook "like it or not" and that is the failing of Democracy and federal overseers. In the mob ruled democracies one only needs some money and the media to control that mob and get 51 percent to cheer you into burning the witch. Now it is law and 49 percent of the people can be burned. That is real equality under democracy.
My sad country was to be a Republic. A much better concept where minorities have their rights too. After a massive war between the nations that history wants to whitewash into calling a "civil war", the Union was able to install military governments in the southern nations and installed a democracy. They gave everyone who was a natural human a new designation as a "person" who had one right, to vote. They took away the human unalienable rights.
The EU is the USA. The UK is like New York, New York being once a proud state (nation) that thought joining a REPUBLIC would help defend against King George and establish a stronger voice to the world - just like the propaganda about the EU states. However once in place it was not long before the powers were corrupted and the laws started to encroach on people - eventually many nations wanted to quit the Republic for this. They ended the original Republic in 1860, gone, finished. The end was a separation and two new "nations" rose. One called the Union, one called the Confederacy. One a federalist, one a confederacy (like the Eu once was). The Union was stuck without food and within a year started a war over ports it claimed in Confederate territory under the old treaty called the Constitution for the untied States of America. Its industrialism conquered the agricultural southern nations and forced a new government on them. The new government put the old paper in front but started the new laws with the 14th amendment. THAT is the new constitution. There are no unalienable rights; there is the right to vote.
You have four rights. Go read them carefully. That is ALL you have. Mandatory education, dignity, equality, and vote. What bs. Do you understand the rights you are born with - unalienable rights? That is what is worth dying for. Not the four pieces of nonsense granted by a government created by rulers to rule without consensus and with full immunity, as you have now ruling you.
If you read the EU releases you will know that silently almost all the nations assemblies have now bypassed the people and turned over those competencies to the EU. Sick. The worst thing of all is that no matter how much light you may see they will install this monster and eventually you or your offspring will have to suffer that consequence.
It does not make me feel any better to see the USA has degenerated its "democracy" into rule by memo. The wonders of a Kings Decree have been streamlined and modernized into rule by memo. You need only look to the USA to see what a corporate federal authority owned by industry will do. If you think that is what you want you are already on your way to an even larger scale model. |
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Rory Winter
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You have four rights. Go read them carefully. That is ALL you have. Mandatory education, dignity, equality, and vote. What bs. Do you understand the rights you are born with - unalienable rights? That is what is worth dying for. Not the four pieces of nonsense granted by a government created by rulers to rule without consensus and with full immunity, as you have now ruling you. |
Well, that's four rights more than we have at present as subjects of the Queen. According to the ephemeral British Constitution (it exists yet it does not exist!) we are all subjects, not citizens. As subjects we have no rights as such.
So however unsatisfactory federal rule might be it would still be an advance. I would rather be a citizen of the EU (which I am now) than a subject of a corrupt and anachronistic royalty.
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http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
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911Eyewitness
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Rory Winter wrote: |
Well, that's four rights more than we have at present as subjects of the Queen. According to the ephemeral British Constitution (it exists yet it does not exist!) we are all subjects, not citizens. As subjects we have no rights as such.
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I understand and concur on most of this. Your plight is well known to me and I sometimes use it as a salt to get attention from some of my British friends. The reason it exists yet not is because it is not for you, the common subject. It was meant for the ruling classes, barons, dukes etc. The Magna Carta was for them so they did not have to turn over all their wealth and serfs when they pledged to the king. "Freedom" in the UK has a very "special" definition that would certainly wake Orwell from his slumbers. Since your queen wants you in the EU you might wonder why?
I always have thought there should be a huge change in the way your caste system works. It may be "illegal" but it certainly has never changed. You will never win without the sacrifice or changing the way your children are educated. It's a real Rocky Horror Picture Show it is.
| Rory Winter wrote: |
So however unsatisfactory federal rule might be it would still be an advance. I would rather be a citizen of the EU (which I am now) than a subject of a corrupt and anachronistic royalty |
Well, the problem with rule by appointed stooges will soon be your cup of tea. One might wonder why the royals are so happy to sign into this and you might dig a little deeper into your Constitution, excuse me, treaty, to find out why. I might suggest the banking charter as that has the Easter egg in it - including the rescinding of the previous 4 rights. It is a real eye opener if you can keep your eyes open long enough to read it.
The British could end the bull any day, just as Americans. The problem is neither have the stomach for it. |
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Rory Winter
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well, the problem with rule by appointed stooges will soon be your cup of tea. One might wonder why the royals are so happy to sign into this and you might dig a little deeper into your Constitution, excuse me, treaty, to find out why. I might suggest the banking charter as that has the Easter egg in it - including the rescinding of the previous 4 rights. It is a real eye opener if you can keep your eyes open long enough to read it. |
Eyewitness, I would like you to read what I and others such as Xmasdale have written on related threads regarding the NWO angle. No one disputes that it exists and that it has been there ever since the inception of the European project. But then, by the same token, the NWO exists in every other capitalist organisation, most certainly in the West and even in Russia and China.
So why single out their presence in the European project as something unusual or peculiar? The NWO conspiracy is everywhere, it is the ongoing development of the capitalist system. Globalism is being forced on us all through so-called 'neo-liberal' economic policies and what is euphemistically called de-regulation.
NWO de-regulation was imposed in the EU from the top as it is being done everywhere. Yet, not everyone who is pro-EU accepts it. If you read this essay, The Stumble, from the European Tribune you will see the writer is vehemently against the destructive economics of 'neo-liberalism.'
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=114415#114415
| Quote: | And thus the conclusion: financiers are smarter than governments, thus they will inevitably find devious ways to crash the economy (after making loads of money in the process, of course, a just reward for their "creativity" and "innovation"), thus crises are inevitable. Apparently this applies even if you stunt the financial sector and tolerate to grow slowly (an assertion that is, of course, nowhere backed by facts, and even contradicted by earlier paragraphs of that very article). So one might as well have fast growth in-between, right? And, conveniently, governments should still be there in the bad times to pick up the pieces.
From the financiers, this makes sense:
* they gorge during the boom, and are celebrated for their smarts and innovation when what they are really doing is finding legal ways to loot and rape the rest of us;
* they are helped during the bust (sorry, the stumble), as that is a tolerable price to have bigger booms the rest of the time;
* they are right and deserve all of this because they are rich. That wealth has to mean something.
But for everybody else? Oh... they might be rich one day, so being stuffed in the meantime is an acceptable price, I suppose. Even if they are actually trampled upon after the 'stumble.' |
As I have said over and over, the EU is not a monolith and has within it every shade of political and economic opinion. The EU has been affected by the NWO powers as have every other political and economic system world over. It is certainly not just the writer of this piece who resists it.
Many of the people who voted NON against the proposed Constitution did it for precisely the reason that they rejected the neo-liberalism which characterises both the rejected Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty. De-regulation threatens job security in France. The NWO wants de-regulation, Sarkozy wants it, the Lisbon Treaty is a blueprint for it. That's why the Treaty is being opposed by Irish labour unionists. Due to its neo-liberalist doctrine many folk who are committed to the European project are opposed to the Treaty in its present form.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=114310#114310
I am impressed by the manner in which the Irish Government has allowed the Lisbon Treaty to be discussed through its Dublin Castle Forum:
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=114305#114305
It is a shame that we in the UK have not been allowed such a debate. Compared to the inane approach of most of our anti-EUers and Europhobes the Irish are arguing the debate in an intelligent and thoughtful manner. It was always my hope that similar discussion could be held on the issue in this Forum. That is why I have removed most of my own energy on the subject from the UK Forum to the Scotland Forum.
Discussion of the issue is welcomed in the Scotland Forum and certainly in the thread I have initiated there, The Europe Controversy. The fact that we have so far had little interest in it begs the question, if the anti-side were so vociferous previously in running anyone out of town who opposed their often phobic objections why is it that, faced with the opportunity of intelligent dialogue 'over the border', they choose to view that same opportunity with disdain?
The European issue is far too important to leave to those who approach it with the mental reading-age of the average SUN reader or who are simply not prepared to discuss it in a rational manner. I look forward to the flowering of that rationality. In Scotland if not elsewhere.
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Last edited by Rory Winter on Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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911Eyewitness
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| Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Rory Winter wrote: |
NWO de-regulation was imposed here. |
Thank you, I will get to your other threads. It is late for me too right now
I just saw you had it all, imposed is the word. That is what it is all about. No matter what you think it will be imposed on you.
I don’t single out the UK or EU. It is just that here I am as it is morphing. I already left a nation gone mad and hoped to have some reprieve here in Europe. But it is not going to last long it seems.
The EU voted to kill the Constitution so they removed the song and flag and passed it on as a treaty. I think it is only missing 20 paragraphs at best? The banking is still there and it is the killer and reason the queen wants in.
Imposed, over the vote.
I was there when a million British got in the streets to show they did not want to enter the war in Iraq. To a marketer that represents 100million, for every one who gets up 10 would have. The people said one thing but the war was out of their hands to choose. Freedom of choise? You think you have more in an appointed EU? With Tony Blair as the first president?????
Yes, Ireland was once a Republic. I only know a scant bit about its history but the more one digs into it the more barbaric the Queens family looks. They seem to be more upfront.
I think the thing that should be bothering most Brits is the once again proof you are nothing and you mean nothing as they promise you and then bend you over for a bigger shove at the bum. Watching the "elections" where you exercise your rights you wanted the vote for the "treaty" and got the bums rush instead. That is treason. Get up, get the tar, get the feathers... nahhh no stomach.
It will be imposed one way or the other. |
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Rory Winter
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Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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Location: Free Scotland!
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I just saw you had it all, imposed is the word. That is what it is all about. No matter what you think it will be imposed on you. |
De-regulation is a globalist policy which is already being imposed by all national governments on their unsuspecting peoples. It is a major plank of the IMF and the World Bank. That it has been written-into the Lisbon Treaty is quite unacceptable and though I remain strongly pro-EU I am against the present Treaty and believe we must have a campaign for a re-negotiated treaty which is more people-friendly.
I repeat, the evils of de-regulation and globalist 'neo-liberalism' are a curse afflicting the entire Planet. The only countries that seem to be actively resisting 'liberalisation' are those in Mercosur, led by Venezuela and Cuba.
The globalists have hijacked the EU whose social policies were traditionally social democratic. And some of the worst hijackers like Vaclav Klaus, President of the Czech Republic, are hard-line Thatcherites who oppose what they call 'Europeanism' and social democracy which they equate as watered-down Communism! These are the very people that the anti-EU groups are now allying themselves with. Fatally naive!
See http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=114419#114419
It is very important to differentiate between the majority who while against the rejected Constitution and now the Lisbon Treaty are not calling for their respective countries to withdraw from the EU. Those who call for withdrawal are in a tiny minority who are dishonestly trying to present their Europhobic case as something supported by the majority. It's simply untrue.
What most people in Britain and other EU countries are angry about is the way the Constitution and now the Treaty is being foisted upon them. Of that group of angry Europeans very few are thinking seriously of withdrawal. Opposing the Constitution-cum-Treaty is not about withdrawal. You tell that to the anti-EUers and Europhobes and see the reaction!
On the whole the manner that the Irish are dealing with the debate seems to me to be intelligent and responsible. Is it too much to ask for a similar debate in the UK?
_________________
One Planet - One People - One Destiny
http://chimesofreedom.blogspot.com
http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
http://x09.eu/splash/
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911Eyewitness
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: |
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"A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all-powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. To make them love it is the task assigned, in present-day totalitarian states, to ministries of propaganda, newspaper editors and schoolteachers." -- Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) Author Source: Forward to 'Brave New World', 1932
when you are born to a specific nation, task, outlook, etc you are in fact enslaved to the morals and premises of what is fed from birth. I think the problem is the social education, mandatory education in the EU, making good "citizens" makes the task of the totalitarian state not only palatable to most, but somehow even seen as the better of two evils.
The majority still pray to clay idols for their life after death. There is still such a long way to go to freedom. |
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Rory Winter
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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The definition you quote above applies equally to all nation states. So I repeat: why single out the EU when ALL capitalist states as we find them are totalitarian, fascist in their corporate statism? The same argument applies to the trend amongst all capitalist governments to implement 'neo-liberal' economic policies. EU officials are only reflecting the policies of nation states as promoted by the Council of Ministers.
| Quote: | | I think the problem is the social education, mandatory education in the EU, making good "citizens" makes the task of the totalitarian state not only palatable to most, but somehow even seen as the better of two evils. |
Education is mandatory and has been so for decades in capitalist states. The EU doesn't interfere in the education process except by statutes protecting human rights, racial, religious, gender equality and the like. Again, what evidence have you that the EU is using mandatory education to make good citizens?
You single out the EU as if it is doing something that nation-states are not! It is certainly homogenising laws, trade etc. But all nations do the same as they grow larger. I don't see the EU subverting anything here apart from the old 19th Century concept of nation-statehood. Something that needs subverting, dismantling and dumping!
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http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
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911Eyewitness
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Rory Winter wrote: | The definition you quote above applies equally to all nation states. So I repeat: why single out the EU when ALL capitalist states as we find them are totalitarian, fascist in their corporate statism?
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Because both you and I are in the EU and this here is the UK forum. The USA is gone and I just figure there is a chance to stop the march here.
| Quote: | | I think the problem is the social education, mandatory education in the EU, making good "citizens" makes the task of the totalitarian state not only palatable to most, but somehow even seen as the better of two evils. |
| Rory Winter wrote: |
Education is mandatory and has been so for decades in capitalist states. The EU doesn't interfere in the education process except by statutes protecting human rights, racial, religious, gender equality and the like. Again, what evidence have you that the EU is using mandatory education to make good citizens?
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Well brother, read the constitution, err treaty carefully. I spent weeks working it over have you?
| Rory Winter wrote: |
You single out the EU as if it is doing something that nation-states are not! |
Once again, here we are in the EU being steamrolled and this IS the UK forum. The EU is the agenda on the table and you would try to make it appear as if it is being singled out in its own thread? It is only the meal on the table at the moment. Are trying to put some burden on me here for following the focus of the thread?
What the march of the EU is doing is bad, what they are doing the the UK is bad, what your representatives are doing is selling you out. Read the treaty. Read the banking provisions because that is the candy they want and exchanged for their serfs.
Would you like to discuss the MedU? In this thread? |
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911Eyewitness
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:46 am Post subject: hint |
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Here is a hint
I give you the "right" to mandatory education.
Later, I explain to you all rights are revoked because you took advantage of one of our programs, education for instancec, therefore all your private finances and activities are open to me because I am a partner of yours amd all previous rights are at the discretion of me because of this. Afterall we invested in you.
Read that banking section. |
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Rory Winter
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Eyewitness, I'm afraid your rather subjective style of writing makes it difficult to follow your thinking and to understand quite what you mean to say. I hesitate to ask, is this something to do with the way you North Americans use the English language in a different way? I note that your location is, as you describe it, the State of Confusion ...
Anyway, your comments are all rather off-target. It would be best if you read the following in order that you may better understand my position:
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=115129#115129
There's a lot of material in this thread, The European Controversy, which you would best read. The issue is in no way black & white as you may think. And it is quite possible for pro-EU federalists such as I to maintain our position while playing an active role in the democratic process.
Please also see my blog, Campaign for a Democratic Europe, at http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
_________________
One Planet - One People - One Destiny
http://chimesofreedom.blogspot.com
http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
http://x09.eu/splash/
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911Eyewitness
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Rory Winter wrote: |
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This is what they would like you to believe. That you have only these choices is absurd but that is all you will read about in your press so there you go.
It is their time-honored tradition and you follow it well. I do not. I see this as part of the confusion. The picture portrays two idiots trying to take your freedom and they want you to believe you have to take a choice they defined. Gee, which evil shall I take today?
I choose none. Like walking through speakers corner and having none of it. Additionally I take umbrage with anyone who would confine me to his or her own selections of evil. Like making me listen to one of those baboons whilst strapping me to the chair, dripping liquids in held open eyes Clock Work Orange style.
Your confusion is only there because you are confused. If you understood you would already be there. It is not the language, I speak five of them; it is the capacity. |
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Rory Winter
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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No, "State of Confusion" is how you describe yourself, my North American friend.
I do not get my ideas from either the gutter press or the mainstream media. I have been a committed European federalist for well nigh the last fifty years and remain totally committed to the European project. If you want to know more I suggest you visit my blog as advised.
http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
I must say I find it more than a little irritating to be lectured by a North American whose own country is in such a god-awful mess. My suggestion to you is go and clean up your doorstep and let us alone to mind ours, ok?
I've just about had enough of this accursed 'special relationship' our robber barons have with yours and cannot wait for the day when a powerful European Defence Force which --with or without Britain-- will stand between the Yanqui imperialists and the poor countries they have terrorised for at least since the end of WWII.
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http://eurodemocrats.blogspot.com/
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911Eyewitness
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Onward you go then, into your abyss. Take solace in ignorance and myopia where there is less pain. Draw the lines where you like they are merely your fantasies, mere fictions like you, destined to vanish into dust.
It matters not which side you are on you are theirs. You are merely on "that" side and not "this" side. Same as everyone. I am somewhere entirely different you may never understand. With that you will never understand why "state of confusion" is under my profile even though your confusion as to my state is quite apparent.
The real shame is in education. The ability to think independently has been wiped out and replaced with replicators spewing constantly new spins on old poisons. Like out of control pin balls in a pinball game, banging from bumper to bumper thinking they are doing something. Never understanding the bumpers were put there on purpose. |
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Rory Winter
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TonyGosling
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Rory Winter
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Oh Dear! Sigh!!
| TonyGosling wrote: | Rory, I wonder how you can be so utterly blind to EU fascism, the police state and totalitarianism.
Don't you understand how it works or is your flippant defence of it deliberate?
Moving to other controversies as you have again sucessfully knobbled this discussion.
If I had my way you'd be suspended for your constant undermining of good discussions on the danger we face from the fascist EU. |
As I understand this post, Tony, it means that if you had your way posts which do not coincide with your opinion would be banned and people expressing such opinions would be suspended from the forum.
Please correct me if I am wrong to infer that from what you wrote and try to clarify what you do mean because if that inferrence is correct, a forum run according to your wishes would be a place we could say bye-bye to free speech.
We can't get our opinions across in the mainstream media so when we take refuge in a forum where free expression should be paramount, we find the administrator saying he would like to ban people whose opinions he disagrees with, but he regrets that he can't, presumably because he know what a stink that would create.
Please could you explain, Tony. Are you in favour of free speech for everyone or only for you and the people you agree with? |
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Rory Winter
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