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zennon
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 Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Er, no it it hasn't. The C4 article relies on an article from "breakfornews.com" for the point in question. In this, it states: "Furthermore, any savvy investigator knows that these types of private-sector "risk management" drills never use field staff. Neither do these low-level corporate drills have active involvement of police or other security forces."
The evidence for this? There is none, he just makes an outright assertion, and does not back it up.
This isn't the first time the author has made outright assertions with nothing to back his claim up. In the forum of his own website he claims Alex Jones secretly works for intelligence agencies:
| Quote: |
Voz de Aztlan, Alex Jones etc. work hand in hand with U.S. intelligence
to provide carefully prepared smokescreening of intelligence operations
--screening designed to make sure those in the alternative media are
fooled just as effectively as their more credulous mainstream counterparts. |
http://breakfornews.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1510&postdays=0&postorde r=asc&start=0
It's pretty obvious that this "journalist" is a delusional hack, and should be laughed at, not encouraged. |
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mr freedom
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| If it wasn't much of a coincidence, then why did Powers appear on national TV with the hairs on the back of his neck standing up! |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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Fintan Dunne is indeed an idiot, the senior journalist arts correspondent Nicholas Glass who wrote the article should have used a better source.
Such as, Peter Power's own website where he explains exactly what sort of exercises his clients get when they engage his services. Services which he was no doubt happy to talk about on national TV and radio, giving him marvellous PR for his apparent prescience - 'what a great person to employ as a security adviser - someone who actually can put together an exercise on paper for a firm that ends up being very similar to what actually happened - he must really know his stuff. I'll certainly hire him, especially in the current situation post 7/7' - see how it works? That's what people do - PR their own companies given half a chance.
Take the chance to be on TV and big up how great you are? What business security adviser would turn down that opportunity to get more clients? Any decent businessman would jump at the chance to promote their product on national news!
Remember, Power said he looked at various scenarios for his clients on the day including rioting protesters as well as terror attacks. Well, after Madrid and various Maydays, neither were much of a stretch, were they? What else could he have gone for - Thames barrier breach? Gas leak? Alien landing?
The terrorism one was an obvious exercise to go through. He does similar every day.
And whilst they were in the middle of it in the office, listening to the pretend news provided by the trainer to help them get into the exercise - it actually happens and 3 bombs go off.
Not actually that odd at all.
Here is how it works when you hire Visor to do an exercise to help you test out your company's security and train your managers to deal with a crisis. You can hire them to do this any day of the week.
If you lot had any interest in real research, you could phone the company and pretend to be a firm who wanted to engage him for some similar training, and get a quote and an idea of the services they offer. Have any of you thought of doing that, pr do you just prefer to speculate on the internet?
http://www.visorconsultants.com/crisismanagementexercises.htm
| Quote: | What's the point in having an exercise when we all did rather well in the last real crisis?
Some people have said after experiencing a localised fire, flood, severe weather, rail disruption or even the 2005 terrorist bombings in London.
However, in real dramas there is no one truly measuring just how well, or otherwise, you coped, then analysing the results, followed by a structured de-brief session to deliberately capture every single success / problem identified.
All too often real events that are considered possible disasters can become a spurious substitute for a proper exercise, not least because it's presumed to be cheaper to pretend that it was a thorough measurement of corporate resilience when it probably was not.
Any worthwhile exercise should at the start, have a group of mandatory considerations to work through including achievable objectives. Then a series of mandatory phases that must include design, rehearsal, delivery and evaluation.
In the case of objectives we will help you to include in any exercise briefing the need to make the session a non embarrassing process and so assuage any mistaken fears that it will be a gratuitous pressure test designed solely to trip up participants.
However, nothing should be leveraged without due consideration to:
* The agreed objectives
* The ability of the team to hopefully cope and
* Making the scenario come alive and be as realistic as possible.
So how do we do this with you?
Facilitating the exercise scenario if often, but not always, best done through a series of simulated TV / Radio News broadcasts since this is exactly how the team and all of your stakeholders will get the news for real.
It is here that our Crisis Communications specialist has a critical role to play during an exercise since it is vital to have a skilled / professional face on the screen coupled with equally professional graphics / quality of broadcast. It's not a question of debating what is reality versus perception, nor the ethical dimensions of sensational media reporting. It's simply a case of bringing the scenario to life by showing unexpurgated (albeit simulated) news exactly as it would appear on any news channel, without it being sanitised by the organisation under the spotlight.
With so many uncharted stakeholders out there along with very fragile supply routes, limited fall back options and untested outsourcing dependencies, the need to exercise in advance of a real crisis becomes even more apparent. This is where we can help your organisation before the real things hits you. |
http://www.visorconsultants.com/crisismanagementexercises.htm
Last edited by Rachel on Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | he must really know his stuff. |
Or somebody else did.
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"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
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Rachel
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: | | Quote: | | he must really know his stuff. |
Or somebody else did. |
*bangs head on brick wall*
'But the earth is flat! I know it is! I want to belieeeeeeve!'
Why do you pretend to be interested in objective truth and facts, when you are clearly not interested at all? |
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numeral
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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O the sheer joy of learning that | Quote: |
the senior journalist arts correspondent Nicholas Hack who wrote the article ... |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I should have thought that any genuine, objective researcher, when approaching this issue of Power and Visor and what was going on when the training exercise was interupted would do such thing as:
Try to find out what services Visor offer
Try to find out what happens in a a crisis management exercise
( perhaps by loomking up 'crisis management exercise' on google UK.
Stuff like this comes up
http://www.insight.co.uk/files/courses/The%20Art%20of%20Crisis%20Manag ement%20Exercising%20Course%20(Datasheet).pdf
| Quote: | The Art of Crisis Management Exercising
Course Agenda
Planning exercises, the practicalities
• Identifying the right people
• What you will need to include/exclude
• Planning exercises, logistics
• The use of workshops to identify key
issues
• Planning workshop.
Developing an exercise
• Choosing the right type of exercise
• Choosing a credible scenario
• Writing the exercise
• Scripting injects
• Developing supporting materials
• Developing an exercise workshop.
Venues
For more information, please contact a
member of the Insight training team on
+44(0)1932 236855.
Fees
Non-residential - £495 + VAT
Residential - please contact a member of
the Insight training team on +44(0)1932
236855.
Training Credits
Bulk buying Training Credits could save
you up to 25% of your training budget.
Delivering an exercise
• How to deliver exercises
• Plan walkthroughs
• Desk top
• Desk top “Plus”
• Interactive
• Full simulation
• Media involvement and media injects
• Role play options
• Managing exercise control.
Delivering an exercise workshop
Post exercise administration
• Debriefing participants
• Post exercise reporting
• Post Incident report writing
• Learning the lessons.
Post exercise administration workshop
In-house training courses
An in-house course can become highly
cost-effective when five or more people
require training. Additional benefits
include:
• Further cost savings on travel and
expenses
• Ability to tailor the content to your
requirements
• Specific workshops based on your
requirements
• Trainers with the relevant industry
background.
BCM eLearning
Insight’s eLearning module |
Did it never occur to anyone to check facts? Compare like with like? Educate themselves about what a crisis management company actually does and how they do it? Before leaping to 'fascinating' conclusions? |
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mr freedom
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the links and so on Rachel. However, nobody is disputing the existence of Visor, nor that the companies services can be purchased. Many people think the Visor exercise on 7/7 a striking coincidence to say the least, including it seems Peter "hairs on the back of my neck" Powers. Simply saying, | Quote: | | Not actually that odd at all |
does not really help, and certainly does not make it so. Equating those who think it odd, with believing the earth is flat, is childish.
I don't think we know the scope nor scale of exercise, we don't know the client, and we don't know the circumstances which brought him to to the national media that day. |
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numeral
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Rachel, do you know the stations involved in PP's exercise and which firm was employing him? The discussion cannot advance until these particulars are known.
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I don't think we know the scope nor scale of exercise, we don't know the client, and we don't know the circumstances which brought him to to the national media that day.
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You can however, do some basic research into it, including comparing his company with similar companies
and what they do and how they do it and how often they do it,
before leaping to conclusions that he was running a 1000 person drill with real actors and fake terrorists and nothing like this has ever happened, ever, so the probability is 'millions to one', when in fact,
the most likely, plausible explanation is nothing of the kind.
He explained who he is, what he does, what sort of company he runs,
( all of which you can check on his site and compare it to similar companies)
He explained that he was working for a medium-large company with 1000 employees on the day - and of course he would not be so crass as to drop his client in it. Especially not if the client is going to be beset by conspiracy theorists for ever more.
Think about it. You're a risk management consultant, doing an exercise about, say, food contamination for, say Masterfoods.
You get a group of managers and you practice it, with a fake news video read by an actress to add excitement.
' Three women have been taken to hospital after eating Superchoc bars which were found to have broken glass in' says the actress.
You pause the tape.
What do your managers do? They all try and answer. You, the trainer encourage them to think logically...stop the production line? Call a PR agency to manage the press?...call the supermarkets and withdraw it off shelves...?
'Quick quick! You say to the dithering managers, who are not crisis trained 'We're doing this in quick-time thinking! I want to see how you'd really cope if this actually happened! '
Etc. (*This is how crisis management exercises work, as anyone can look up for themselves.)
Whilst popping out the room for a pee, you hear the BBC news in the reception.
'Cadbury's is in crisis as customers complain of contaminated chocolate' says the announcer.
Golly gosh! The hairs stand up on the back of your neck!
The BBC call your mobile. Can you come to Millbank and comment, as you are a well known crisis management expert?
Of course you can! Just think of all the clients who'll be booking you after this!
'I was actually doing an exercise about this very thing this morning' you tell the presenter 'because I am a crisis management consultant - my company is *insert big plug here* - and the hairs on the back of my neck stood up, because this is just the thing we were planning for!'
( Ha, you think - how clever and smart I look now! Everyone will be rushing to hire me! What great PR for me! But then - I am after all - a PR crisis management expert!')
The only snag is, for the next three years, conspiracy theorists hassle you and say
YOU POISONED THE CHOCOLATES! The coincidence is a million to one that you'd be doing a similar exercise!
( even though they have not bothered to check what you do and how crisis management works)
The end.
Poor guy, I bet he regrets bigging himself up so much now.
See?
Last edited by Rachel on Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mr freedom
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Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | | Quote: | I don't think we know the scope nor scale of exercise, we don't know the client, and we don't know the circumstances which brought him to to the national media that day.
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You can however, do some basic research into it, including comparing his company with similar companies
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The problem is Rachel, if Visor were involved in caring out terrorist acts, it is unlikely to be advertised on their website. |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is, they're a bog standard reasonably successful crisis management company, like many other crisis management companies.
As anyone can check for themselves.
I mean, I suppose Gregg the bakers could be engaged in a secret dastardly racist plan to add toxic additives to sticky buns to cause infertility in Welsh people, but it's not very bloody likely, and all the evidence points to them being a baker, who make bread and cakes.
We can all make up wild theories, but a little attempt at objectivity and some research without lashings of paranoia go a long way. |
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mr freedom
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | The problem is, they're a bog standard reasonably successful crisis management company, like many other crisis management companies.
As anyone can check for themselves.
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Quite, you are assuming that "they're a bog standard ... crisis management company," and therefore could not be involved in terrorism. I completely agree with the rest of your post. |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| No _ I've checked that they're a bog standard crisis management company. You can do this too. |
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mr freedom
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| mr freedom wrote: | | Rachel wrote: |
You can however, do some basic research into it, including comparing his company with similar companies
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The problem is Rachel, if Visor were involved in caring out terrorist acts, it is unlikely to be advertised on their website. |
Looking at their website isn't going to cut it I'm afraid Rachel. |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Looking at their website isn't going to cut it I'm afraid Rachel. |
Funny, looking at websites cuts it with everything else that passes for research here.
I have done more than look at their website. Have a think about how you could check what Visor do.
Speak to clients of theirs? Ask people in the industry? Talk to people who know Power? Phone Visor up for a quote and get them to tell you what they do? Call his direct competitors? Have a think and see what you can come up with, starting from the premise that you believe they may be a crisis management company who do training exercises, much as Greggs are a bakers who make bread and cakes.
It all starts with having an inquiring mind and not leaping to conclusions and then trying to find things to fit the wild theory that you have made up in the abscence of any firm evidence.
You will get much further this way, and will be taken far more seriously if you do find something unusual as a result of your inquiries. |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Right, I'm off to watch a movie. |
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mr freedom
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mr freedom wrote: | | nobody is disputing the existence of Visor, nor that the companies services can be purchased. |
Enjoy your film, I must find something else to do also... |
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Prole
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Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | | The problem is, they're a bog standard reasonably successful crisis management company, like many other crisis management companies. |
Bog standard? Hardly, Rachel. How many other managing directors get on Newsnight & radio as often as Mr Power? How many get to make Panorama programmes which examine 'terrorist attacks' at three stations and on a road vehicle? How many fake their CV to exclude the fact they they took early retirement whilst the CPS were examing a file of allegations against them?
The Terror Rehearsal
CV Fakery
Yes we've done our research over at J7.
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'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK |
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zennon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'm surprised no one has bothered to call up Visor, and ask them what they do.  |
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Rachel
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Prole wrote: | | Rachel wrote: | | The problem is, they're a bog standard reasonably successful crisis management company, like many other crisis management companies. |
Bog standard? Hardly, Rachel. How many other managing directors get on Newsnight & radio as often as Mr Power? . |
Hey, I'm a bog standard survivor. I get to go on the radio and Newsnight as well.
Once the journalists know you, once you've spoken out once, you'd be surprised how often you get calls. |
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Prole
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | | Prole wrote: | | Rachel wrote: | | The problem is, they're a bog standard reasonably successful crisis management company, like many other crisis management companies. |
Bog standard? Hardly, Rachel. How many other managing directors get on Newsnight & radio as often as Mr Power? . |
Hey, I'm a bog standard survivor. I get to go on the radio and Newsnight as well.
Once the journalists know you, once you've spoken out once, you'd be surprised how often you get calls. |
I notice you ignored the rest of my comment:
| Quote: | How many get to make Panorama programmes which examine 'terrorist attacks' at three stations and on a road vehicle? How many fake their CV to exclude the fact they they took early retirement whilst the CPS were examing a file of allegations against them?
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Aside from that, I think you underestimate yourself, Rachel:
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'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK |
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mr freedom
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I'd forgotten about the Panorama program, which makes the Peter Power connection stranger still... Rachel, I don't see the connection between your appearance on TV and radio, and the increasingly curious Peter Power. |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | *bangs head on brick wall*
'But the earth is flat! I know it is! I want to belieeeeeeve!'
Why do you pretend to be interested in objective truth and facts, when you are clearly not interested at all? |
There is no need to "bang head on brick wall". Just stop posting reams of disinformation and go and do something else with your time. Trying to convince people that the naked emperor is dressed in the finest silk is bound to be frustrating. You don't have to do it.
Your reference to wanting to believe in a flat Earth is wonderfully ironic bearing in mind your repeated and repeated and repeated efforts to convince people of something similar. Hilarious.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
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Rachel
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Prole
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Do you mean this quote:
| Quote: | Of the bloodcurdling threats that landed his brother and so many others in jail, he says, “Sometimes I think: was it just kids, trying to get a buzz, trying to feel big?” Of the “brothers” he met in jail – whose chilling conversations about slaughtering innocents were heard in court – he says: “It was cloud-cuckoo land, little kids dreaming up things that could never be. I thought: what idiots.”
That may be true but it did not stop others with the same views from murdering 52 people in London and trying to slaughter many more. The subject clearly makes Musa uncomfortable. He is shocked when I tell him that the police believe there are at least 2,000 young Islamists actively plotting attacks.
Talking about his terrorist friends in Belmarsh, he says that he finds it “hard to see beyond what I knew of them. It’s strange, because I was with them all my time in there and I got to know them personally. And I never got to see that side to them. They seemed so bright, fun-loving . . .” |
Or the part where you tag 'suicide bomber' on to the end of his quote:
| Quote: | What is it that turns “fun-loving lads” into suicide bombers?
“I think when they get into extremism it can build up over time; they get it instilled into them . . . And these youngsters, if they can’t see a future, if they haven’t got anything going for them, they just think: what is there for me? And if you’re promised paradise, and they’re in dreamland thinking, paradise, wives . . . that could turn a person into a jihadi” – for which read suicide bomber. |
What is painfully obvious from reading this piece is your own agenda. btw for sake of journalistic accuracy, MSK's name is spelt Mohammad Sidique Khan.
_________________
'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
Last edited by Prole on Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if the Guildford four believe in bombings. Or the Birmingham six. If you walk to a tube station perfectly appropriately dressed and not carrying a rucksack and pay for your ticket and take a place on a tube train normally and all the cctv cameras stop working and you get pumped full of bullets in your head your relatives will fully understand that it was just an accident. Course its just the authorities acting in the best interests of society dontchaknow! Of course everyone ever charged and/or imprisoned is naturally guilty because governments never lie and never get it wrong. They never frame people either or carry out murders. Nope, just trust the government and police because they act in the interests of us all. Sure they do. Back to sleep now.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
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zennon
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Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| No one here is saying that Islamist terrorism does not exist. To suggest otherwise shows a gross misunderstanding of our views. |
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numeral
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| Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:58 am Post subject: |
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zennon wrote: | Quote: | | No one here is saying that Islamist terrorism does not exist. To suggest otherwise shows a gross misunderstanding of our views. |
zennon, can you list a few recent examples where bombs have actually gone off and where there is no suspicion of states sponsoring the terrorists?
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