Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject:
I agree - this has stayed here in the interests of free speech but I am not convinced that free speech on this thread has achieved anything at all.
There is, of course, a legitimate criticism of British originating far-right Zionist extremism. Which has pushed the genocidal idea that it's okay to populate the holy land with Europeans, kicking out the people that used to live there.
But I don't see any point in allowing discussions about the details of the Holocaust on this forum. Maybe we should entirely rule Holocaust discussions out of bounds and hide this topic, even in controversies.
Unless anyone would volunteer to be a Holocaust moderator?? That's about the only way I'd be happy to carry on.
So stand by to see this and similar discussions disappear. Save them now if you think they're really valuable (with one or two exceptions). I don't.
Sixy wrote:
Outsider, I totally agree with you. It sickens me to be quite honest. I too feel that this 'discussion' which has lead to Holocaust denial should be looked at on this forum as it has lead to some incredibly hateful and offensive comments made.
You cannot provide the name, with proof, of one person "gassed" to death in World War 2 by the Germans. No-one can. Yet you want to remove all discussion on the matter.
Presumably so you can witter on about Masons and Bildergergers and other such nonsense.
You would think people here would be more sceptical about accepted beliefs. But, no. When it comes to the biggest lie of them all most accept the official story - even though they know pitifully little about it - with complete conviction.
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 6060 Location: East London
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:12 am Post subject:
Alexander wrote:
You cannot provide the name, with proof, of one person "gassed" to death in World War 2 by the Germans. No-one can. Yet you want to remove all discussion on the matter.
Presumably so you can witter on about Masons and Bildergergers and other such nonsense.
You would think people here would be more sceptical about accepted beliefs. But, no. When it comes to the biggest lie of them all most accept the official story - even though they know pitifully little about it - with complete conviction.
I totally agree with Tony - this post thread should never have been allowed on this site in the first place. Anyone who really wants to post Holocaust-denial material can migrate to NF or BNP sites; they are not only not welcome here, but will no longer be tolerated.
The sooner this thread is erased, the better.
If Israel commits atrocities against the Palestinians, or can be shown to be complicit in 9/11 or 7/7, fire away.
BUT HOLOCAUST DENIAL IS VERBOTEN ON THIS SITE. _________________ 'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7.
There is an official account of what happened on 9/11. Perhaps we should forbid any "Denial" of what the government says occurred and just shut this site down.
No historical record should be beyond investigation and that includes the Holocaust. If all elements are true it will stand analysis so what is the problem? Questioning any of the particulars is classed as "Denial" of the whole event which is itself ridiculous.
Israel's fingerprints are all over the smoking gun of 9/11 and the Holocaust industry helps them to get away with it. It is perfectly possible to accept that millions of Jews were slaughtered during WW2 without having to buy the whole Holocaust industry. _________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
I agree - this has stayed here in the interests of free speech but I am not convinced that free speech on this thread has achieved anything at all.
What a confused and hypocritical position Tony. I don't like having to say so, but have to say so.
Quote:
There is, of course, a legitimate criticism of British originating far-right Zionist extremism.
By implying that questioning of "the holocaust" is not legitimate you are behaving no differently from the censors in the MSM.
Quote:
Which has pushed the genocidal idea that it's okay to populate the holy land with Europeans, kicking out the people that used to live there.
And what is the basis on which they justify this?
Quote:
But I don't see any point in allowing discussions about the details of the Holocaust on this forum. Maybe we should entirely rule Holocaust discussions out of bounds and hide this topic, even in controversies.
No, we should stand for free speech and unfettered discussion. We don't want the thought police holding sway here.
Do we?
Quote:
Unless anyone would volunteer to be a Holocaust moderator?? That's about the only way I'd be happy to carry on.
I volunteer. My policy would be that people can say what they want without censorship. If others don't like it, they can respond, challenge, or ignore as they please.
Quote:
So stand by to see this and similar discussions disappear.
Unjustifiable and disgraceful. You ought to be ashamed for even considering it.
Quote:
Save them now if you think they're really valuable (with one or two exceptions). I don't.
But those contributing to them do. Who are you to censor them? What gives you the moral (as opposed to practical) authority to do so?
Sixy wrote:
Quote:
Outsider, I totally agree with you. It sickens me to be quite honest. I too feel that this 'discussion' which has lead to Holocaust denial should be looked at on this forum as it has lead to some incredibly hateful and offensive comments made.
I presume you are referring to suraci's joke about showers.
On "Look Away Now", the feeble sports comedy programme on Radio 4 last week, there was a joke about booking a ticket for Ossy Ardilles on the General Belgrano.
So now we have a situation where it's ok for the BBC to carry jokes about a tragedy, the official account of which the writer presumably does not dispute, but verboten for this forum to carry jokes about a tragedy, the official account of which the writer does dispute.
Which means the BBC are more permissive in matters of freedom of expression than this forum... how ironic... oh hang on, the holocaust is DIFFERENT. It's a religion... the only one the tenets of which are sacred... sorry, I forgot.
"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum."
- Noam Chomsky _________________ If you want to know who is really in control, ask yourself who you cannot criticise.
"The hunt for 'anti-semites' is a hunt for pockets of resistance to the NWO"-- Israel Shamir
"What we in America call terrorists are really groups of people that reject the international system..." - Heinz "Henry" Kissinger
So Simon, if you were 'holocaust moderator' would you censor or openly challenge posts such the one I challenged on page 1 which were clearly anti-jewish.
Until holocaust deniers are able to separate themselves from the racists and fascists in their midst, they should expect censorship from those who don't wish to be associated with racists and fascists. Not difficult to understand.
As far as i'm aware.
Discussion of Holocaust™ is still legal in Britain. It has been outlawed in several countries but here we are still free to discuss it.
Dont you think it is right to discuss Rockefeller financing Mengele's human experiments and taking him to safety to continue these evil acts of torture?
Dont you think it is right that Warburgs should be exposed as Hitler's bankers.
IBM as the company who enabled much of the Nazi programme. Standard Oil who supplied all the oil. Prescot Bush who was a Nazi collaborater as were several members of the World Zionist Congress.
We could go on as the list of culprits is extensive.
Why dont people think it healthy to discuss what really happened and point the fingers at who created and facilitated the situation?
I dont think it does justice to the many people who died.
Simply accepting the New York lawyers version of events is wrong and we as 'truthers' feel duty bound to question and discuss it. And ofcourse the events are linked directly to the Holocaust in Palestine where the concentration camps are still open and not a penny of compensation has ever been paid to the millions killed. _________________
Until holocaust deniers are able to separate themselves from the racists and fascists in their midst, they should expect censorship from those who don't wish to be associated with racists and fascists. Not difficult to understand.
But what if a Holocaust "Denier" does not in any way associate with fascists and racists and it is only you and your kind who make that association? Maybe many Holocaust "deniers" are fascists and/or rascists just like many 9/11 truthers might believe in aliens or Elvis still living. The mainstream media associate 9/11 truthers with nutcases ("conspiracy theorists") who believe in lizard people etc. etc - so as to censor them. How do you, as a 9/11 truther, "separate" yourself from such people so as to avoid the mainstream media censorship? Not difficult to understand? _________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
if you look back over this thread there are numerous times when posters who are challenging the holocaust have posted links and cited the views of people associated with fascism and the far-right. It's such posters who associate holocaust revisionism with fascism and racism and because I don't want to see 9/11 truth associated with such views I challenge them. So it is "holocaust deniers" who make the association. I just point it out. Perhaps if more non-racist and non-fascist holocaust revisionists challenged the fascists in their midst, I wouldn't feel the need to do so
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 6060 Location: East London
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:57 pm Post subject:
There is a great deal of difference between legitimately pointing out Israeli atrocities against Palestinians (or anyone else, including the American crew of the USS Liberty), Jewish firms or banks doing business with Hitler, or indeed the Vatican doing the same, and denying the Holocaust, or nit-picking over the exact number slaughtered.
If any of you are really as interested in spreading this poison, by all means go ahead, but not here.
No one will be more pleased to see the Holocaust questioned on this site than the Mossad and the Neo-Cons - are you all too dense to understand that, or is that your intention, to discredit our 9/11 site?
The sooner this thread is deleted, the better.
I don't know about school kids having to go to the Aushwitz-Birkenau Museum, but it might do some of you lot a bit of good. Go and see the rolls of cloth, made from human hair; go and see the piles of shoes, ranging from toddlers size to OAP's; go and see the piles of cases with the names written on them; the pitiful piles of eyeglasses, toothbrushes, kiddies clothes, pots and pans; go and see the sorrow on the people's faces who go there to see what was done to human beings by the Nazi butchers; go and see if you still feel the same when you get back.
Or go and ask Helen Bamber, the founder of the Medical Foundation for the Treatment of Victims of Torture; she was in the Forces and went into the Camps on Liberation. Ask her what she saw, what the survivors told her.
Rest assured, Holocaust Denial will not slip under the radar of this site in the future. So if you want to get barred, try it on. _________________ 'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject:
outsider wrote:
There is a great deal of difference between legitimately pointing out Israeli atrocities against Palestinians (or anyone else, including the American crew of the USS Liberty), Jewish firms or banks doing business with Hitler, or indeed the Vatican doing the same, and denying the Holocaust, or nit-picking over the exact number slaughtered.
If any of you are really as interested in spreading this poison, by all means go ahead, but not here.
No one will be more pleased to see the Holocaust questioned on this site than the Mossad and the Neo-Cons - are you all too dense to understand that, or is that your intention, to discredit our 9/11 site?
The sooner this thread is deleted, the better.
I don't know about school kids having to go to the Aushwitz-Birkenau Museum, but it might do some of you lot a bit of good. Go and see the rolls of cloth, made from human hair; go and see the piles of shoes, ranging from toddlers size to OAP's; go and see the piles of cases with the names written on them; the pitiful piles of eyeglasses, toothbrushes, kiddies clothes, pots and pans; go and see the sorrow on the people's faces who go there to see what was done to human beings by the Nazi butchers; go and see if you still feel the same when you get back.
Or go and ask Helen Bamber, the founder of the Medical Foundation for the Treatment of Victims of Torture; she was in the Forces and went into the Camps on Liberation. Ask her what she saw, what the survivors told her.
Rest assured, Holocaust Denial will not slip under the radar of this site in the future. So if you want to get barred, try it on.
I don't know about school kids having to go to the Aushwitz-Birkenau Museum, but it might do some of you lot a bit of good.
Have you seen the piles of spectacles in Russian museums, part of the legacy of the 20 million who died? Does it tug at your heartstrings to see the Polish museum with its pitiful piles of kiddies clothes, reminding us of the millions of Poles who died? No?? What about the 50 million Chinese... oh wait.. they aren't as important because it takes a thousand Goy to make up a fingernail of a Jew. Now who said that recently???....
Still rather than visiting Palestine, Afghanistan or Iraq to see the current atrocities being perpetrated, it is more meaningful to witness artifacts of a war that happened before most of us were born. Why single out Jewish suffering?? Because of the manner in which they were killed of course, not to perpetrate or exaggerate in order to use the propaganda to excuse modern barbarity. That would be a Holocaust Industry! The industry that is used by your kind to defend the existence of Israel and its monstrous behaviour including its hand in the slaughter of thousands of defenceless people in New York on 9/11 and the murder of dozens of defenceless people in London on 7/7.
That millions of Jews were slaughtered in WW2 is a fact and it is not "Holocaust Denial" to question the propaganda machine that has evolved since, and that uses that horrible event to excuse modern day barbarity. Censoring debate on it is like ignoring the elephant in the room. _________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
I don't know about school kids having to go to the Aushwitz-Birkenau Museum, but it might do some of you lot a bit of good. Go and see the rolls of cloth, made from human hair; go and see the piles of shoes, ranging from toddlers size to OAP's; go and see the piles of cases with the names written on them; the pitiful piles of eyeglasses, toothbrushes, kiddies clothes, pots and pans; go and see the sorrow on the people's faces who go there to see what was done to human beings by the Nazi butchers; go and see if you still feel the same when you get back..
How about you guys going to visit the concentration camps of Sabra and Shatila?
Will you feel the same when you get back?
Ofcourse you will because all humans are not equal are they.
The Gypsies that were massacred during WW2 dont count because they dont have New York lawyers acting on their behalf.
'Israel has said it will refuse a visa for the new United Nations human rights envoy to the Palestinians after he said it was responsible for a “Holocaust in the making” in Gaza. Richard Falk, a Jewish-American law professor, is to assume the UN post of special rapporteur in June. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/08/wisrae l108.xml
so even real Jews are vilified if they ask questians _________________
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 6060 Location: East London
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:36 am Post subject:
But none of us are denying the Sabra and Shatilla massacres, or that many thousands of Gypsies, homosexuals and disabled people were cruelly slaughtered by the Nazis, are we?
Rest assured, if I were near the area I would go to Sabra and Shatilla, if it were possible. I have in fact travelled widely in the Middle East, including Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan,Syria, Quwait, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, and at a later date, Bangladesh.
If I were to go to any of those areas now, which I have neither the funds nor time for, I suspect I would be a prime target for 'Terrorists' (the hand-wringing, wailing and knashing of teeth in Washington, London and Tel Aviv would be pitiful to behold). _________________ 'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7.
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 290 Location: New Albion
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject:
outsider wrote:
Alexander wrote:
You cannot provide the name, with proof, of one person "gassed" to death in World War 2 by the Germans. No-one can. Yet you want to remove all discussion on the matter.
Presumably so you can witter on about Masons and Bildergergers and other such nonsense.
You would think people here would be more sceptical about accepted beliefs. But, no. When it comes to the biggest lie of them all most accept the official story - even though they know pitifully little about it - with complete conviction.
I totally agree with Tony - this post thread should never have been allowed on this site in the first place. Anyone who really wants to post Holocaust-denial material can migrate to NF or BNP sites; they are not only not welcome here, but will no longer be tolerated.
The sooner this thread is erased, the better.
If Israel commits atrocities against the Palestinians, or can be shown to be complicit in 9/11 or 7/7, fire away.
BUT HOLOCAUST DENIAL IS VERBOTEN ON THIS SITE.
So much for honesty and Truth. Whatever I say regarding the Holocaust on this site should be understood as conforming to the requirements of posting here, and should not be considered as fact or reflecting my True beliefs. I will openly and willfully lie to you on the subject. _________________ "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
Last edited by Alulim on Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 290 Location: New Albion
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject:
Ef þú átt annan,
þanns þú illa trúir,
vildu af hánum þó gótt geta,
fagrt skaltu við þann mæla
en flátt hyggja
ok gjalda lausung við lygi.
Það er enn of þann
er þú illa trúir
ok þér er grunr at hans geði:
hlæja skaltu við þeim
ok um hug mæla;
glík skulu gjöld gjöfum.
Hale to the Mighty Æsir! _________________ "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 290 Location: New Albion
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject:
TonyGosling wrote:
I agree - this has stayed here in the interests of free speech but I am not convinced that free speech on this thread has achieved anything at all.
That's because you are completely oblivious to the obvious facts and refuse to give due consideration to what I have said. For the record I fully believe in whatever you want to call "The Holocaust(TM)." I will never again (on this forum) deny The Holocaust(TM).
The Holocaust(TM) is the root cause of 9/11. This is blatantly obvious to me. _________________ "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
I for one would rather be barred than be assocciated with such ignorant bigotry.
Threats and intimidation from would be truth seekers regards to the truth on any subject is not only unacceptable it does not bode well for the future of the movement in general.
Petty minded bullies who appear to think that because they have seen through that most ludicrous Sept 11 fairy tale they are in a position to tell others what to think about other matters whether there is evidence to support it or not.
Instead of using Nazi or Zionist type threat tactics to quieten those that are willing to look at and weigh the evidence PUT UP THE EVIDENCE that will quieten them or have have a long hard look at yourself and your obscene tactics.
To deny people the right to decide on the basis of evidence is the only denial that should be of concern, not the mindless repetitive "denial" that is trotted out like Osama Osama Sept 11 Sept 11.
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 290 Location: New Albion
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject:
brian wrote:
I for one would rather be barred than be assocciated with such ignorant bigotry.
Threats and intimidation from would be truth seekers regards to the truth on any subject is not only unacceptable it does not bode well for the future of the movement in general.
Petty minded bullies who appear to think that because they have seen through that most ludicrous Sept 11 fairy tale they are in a position to tell others what to think about other matters whether there is evidence to support it or not.
Instead of using Nazi or Zionist type threat tactics to quieten those that are willing to look at and weigh the evidence PUT UP THE EVIDENCE that will quieten them or have have a long hard look at yourself and your obscene tactics.
To deny people the right to decide on the basis of evidence is the only denial that should be of concern, not the mindless repetitive "denial" that is trotted out like Osama Osama Sept 11 Sept 11.
I note that the injunction is not against expressing any opinion regarding The Holocaust(TM). It is explicitly against expressing a particular opinion about The Holocaust(TM). IOW, if I were to say (hypothetically, of course) that The Holocaust(TM) is a filthy, pathetic lie cooked up by Zionists Jews and Zionist Brits as a continuation of the psychological war against my kinsmen in order to destroy all sense of ethnic pride and rob us of our heritage making us completely vulnerable to parasites such as the International Banking Cartel, I would be making a statement contrary to the will of the moderator. OTOH, if I affirm that The Holocaust(TM) really happened - though I don't really know what that means - I would be making a permissible statement. I therefore agree with whatever the moderator deems to be fact regarding The Holocaust(TM). Of course, with the above stated qualification. _________________ "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 290 Location: New Albion
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:52 pm Post subject:
It would also be utterly absurd for me to suggest that several of the bodies shown in this unquestionably accurate propaganda film exhibit no post rigor mortis stiffness:
And I will never (on this forum) suggest that the hundreds of dead people shown were killed by Allied forces. Nor will I suggest that train loads of German refugees were left to die locked in cattle cars after the Allies arrived. And I won't think of pointing out that all of the nonsense about commie-skin lampshades and gas chambers disguised as shower rooms at Dachau (shown in the film) has been retracted.
No, I will agree with the moderator that this sworn audio-visual affidavit which served as the foundation of all subsequent history of The Holocaust(TM) is completely beyond suspicion. Indeed it proves The Holocaust(TM) beyond any doubt. It is at least as legitimate and reliable as the Wannsee Protokoll which we know was not forged by Kempner (A German Jew with an axe to grind). _________________ "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann exposes how, in WWII and even after, humanitarian rescue efforts to rescue Jewish lives were consistently "subverted to narrow Zionist interests":
"No Shame"
President Roosevelt convened the Evian conference July 6-15 1938, to deal with the Jewish refugee problem. The Jewish Agency delegation headed by Golda Meir (Meirson) ignored a German offer to allow Jews to emigrate to other countries for $250 a head, and the Zionists made no effort to influence the United States and the 32 other countries attending the conference to allow immigration of German and Austrian Jews.
On Feb 1, 1940 Henry Montor executive vice-President of the United Jewish Appeal refused to intervene for a shipload of Jewish refugees stranded on the Danube river, stating that "Palestine cannot be flooded with... old people or with undesirables."
It is an historical fact that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that: a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.
The Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.
The answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments: a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees. b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war. c) No ransom will be paid. This response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.
These treacherous Zionist leaders betrayed their own flesh and blood. Zionism was never an option for Jewish salvation. Quite the opposite, it was a formula for human beings to be used as pawns for the power trip of several desperadoes. A perfidy! A betrayal beyond description!
In 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved. The same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).
The British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.
On December 17, 1942 both houses of the British Parliament declared its readiness to find temporary refuge for endangered persons. The British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany. This motion received within two weeks a total of 277 Parliamentary signatures. On Jan. 27, when the next steps were being pursued by over 100 M.P.'s and Lords, a spokesman for the Zionists announced that the Jews would oppose the motion because Palestine was omitted.
On Feb. 16, 1943 Roumania offered 70,000 Jewish refugees of the Trans-Dniestria to leave at the cost of $50 each. This was publicized in the New York papers. Yitzhak Greenbaum, Chairman of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency, addressing the Zionist Executive Council in Tel Aviv Feb. 18 1943 said, "when they asked me, "couldn't you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said NO! and I say again, NO!...one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance." On Feb. 24, 1943 Stephen Wise, President of the American Jewish Congress and leader of the American Zionists issued a public refusal to this offer and declared no collection of funds would seem justified. In 1944, the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People called upon the American government to establish a War Refugee Board. Stephen Wise testifying before a special committee of Congress objected to this proposal.
During the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weizman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weizman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".
And then, after the bitterest episode in Jewish history, these Zionist "statesmen" lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in hunger and deprivation, and to refuse relocation to any place but Palestine; only for the purpose of building their State.
In 1947 Congressman William Stration sponsored a bill to immediately grant entry to the United States of 400,000 displaced persons. The bill was not passed after it was publicly denounced by the Zionist leadership.
These facts are read with consternation and unbearable shame. How can it be explained that at a time during the last phase of the war, when the Nazis were willing to barter Jews for money, partly because of their desires to establish contact with the Western powers which, they believed, were under Jewish influence, how was it possible one asks that the self-proclaimed "Jewish leaders" did not move heaven and earth to save the last remnant of their brothers?
On Feb. 23, 1956 the Hon. J. W. Pickersgill, Minister for Immigration was asked in the Canadian House of Commons "would he open the doors of Canada to Jewish refugees". He replied "the government has made no progress in that direction because the government of Israel....does not wish us to do so".
In 1972, the Zionist leadership successfully opposed an effort in the United States Congress to allow 20,000-30,000 Russian refugees to enter the United States. Jewish relief organizations, Joint and HIAS, were being pressured to abandon these refugees in Vienna, Rome and other European cities.
The pattern is clear!!! Humanitarian rescue efforts are subverted to narrow Zionist interests.
There were many more shocking crimes committed by these abject degenerates known as "Jewish statesmen", we could list many more example, but for the time being let anyone produce a valid excuse for the above facts.
Now this angle is infinitely more productive than tedious rehashing of arguments about gas chambers and will lead people to ask the really important questions and build a recognition that the powers that be invariably fund/support both sides of any conflict just as they are today
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 290 Location: New Albion
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject:
Yeah! Screw a bunch of pap about 'Truth, Honor and Justice'. These ideals left England centuries ago. Who needs them? _________________ "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 3889 Location: North Down, N. Ireland
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject:
I must admit I nearly thought I'd have had to go out to the all day garage to stock up on some more Elastoplast in an attempt to staunch my bleeding heart, due to the travails of the brave free thinking unshackled upholders of free speech in merely speaking your minds.
Never mind that your professed viewpoint springs from your self-adopted, and possibly spurious, theory that the current day Israeli government apparently 'uses' the history of 60 years ago to somehow fully justify their present day murderous and oppressive apartheid policies.
Never mind that Israel is so obviously that it doesn't need stating, a client state that, like we inhabitants of Airstrip One, should in reality think of itself as Beachhead One.
Never mind that massacres and pogroms against the Jewish people have happened continuously, if sporadically, at least since York in the Twelfth Century and throughout Europe until modern times, and that up until recently the name 'jew' ran a close second to 'nigger' in the western lexicon.
Never mind that most of the so-called 'evidence' for your views come from sites so tainted by right wing groups, 'allegedly' in denial, yet still so poisonous that they'd show up on a switched off geiger counter.
Never mind that not never, no how, is Joe Public ever going to say or even think, on the strength of your convictions, in lieu of your lack of convincing evidence, - 'Oh the Holocaust wasn't as bad as we were told - maybe that Israeli Government's having us on when they say they're historically justified in treating the native Arab population as sub-human'.
I have to say that while your aims might (but only might) be well meaning, your tactics are nonsense. And stink worse. _________________ Dissolution of the Global Corporations.
It's the only way.
Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 290 Location: New Albion
Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject:
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." ~ Henry David Thoreau
Meet Kenneth McVay:
_________________ "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." ~ Thomas Jefferson
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Pennsylvania Historical Review (1759)
Never mind that massacres and pogroms against the Jewish people have happened continuously, if sporadically, at least since York in the Twelfth Century and throughout Europe until modern times,
Why? What is it that they do that causes such attacks? Just innocently behaving themselves and they get picked on? Totally blameless but constantly attacked over centuries! Now, after so many people of Jewish connection are heavily involved in the murder of thousands of defenceless people in New York they are being "victimised" again!!! Its so unfair. Lets kill a million Arabs or Muslims and instead - in fact lets accept the Jewish dominated neo-con USA government organising an attack on Iran to kill a few more hundred thousand Muslims. Its not as if Iranians are Jews after all, their lives aren't as important. _________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
Imagine if Muslim clerics said something like that below. It would be headlines all over the Newspapers and TV stations. But how quiet they are about this.
Quote:
Genocide announced Bombs would fall under other circumstances, but when influential rabbis call for the total annihilation of the Palestinians the world watches without blinking
Saleh Al-Naami, Al-Ahram Weekly, April 10, 2008
"All of the Palestinians must be killed; men, women, infants, and even their beasts." This was the religious opinion issued one week ago by Rabbi Yisrael Rosen, director of the Tsomet Institute, a long-established religious institute attended by students and soldiers in the Israeli settlements of the West Bank. In an article published by numerous religious Israeli newspapers two weeks ago and run by the liberal Haaretz on 26 March, Rosen asserted that there is evidence in the Torah to justify this stand. Rosen, an authority able to issue religious opinions for Jews, wrote that Palestinians are like the nation of Amalekites that attacked the Israelite tribes on their way to Jerusalem after they had fled from Egypt under the leadership of Moses. He wrote that the Lord sent down in the Torah a ruling that allowed the Jews to kill the Amalekites, and that this ruling is known in Jewish jurisprudence.
Rosen's article, which created a lot of noise in Israel, included the text of the ruling in the Torah: "Annihilate the Amalekites from the beginning to the end. Kill them and wrest them from their possessions. Show them no mercy. Kill continuously, one after the other. Leave no child, plant, or tree. Kill their beasts, from camels to donkeys." Rosen adds that the Amalekites are not a particular race or religion, but rather all those who hate the Jews for religious or national motives. Rosen goes as far as saying that the "Amalekites will remain as long as there are Jews. In every age Amalekites will surface from other races to attack the Jews, and thus the war against them must be global." He urges application of the "Amalekites ruling" and says that the Jews must undertake to implement it in all eras because it is a "divine commandment".
Rosen does not hesitate to define the "Amalekites of this age" as the Palestinians. He writes, "those who kill students as they recite the Torah, and fire missiles on the city of Siderot, spread terror in the hearts of men and women. Those who dance over blood are the Amalekites, and we must respond with counter-hatred. We must uproot any trace of humanitarianism in dealing with them so that we emerge victorious."
The true outrage is that most of those authorised to issue Jewish religious opinions support the view of Rabbi Rosen, as confirmed by Haaretz newspaper. At the head of those supporting his opinion is Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, the leading religious authority in Israel's religious national current, and former chief Eastern rabbi for Israel. Rosen's opinion also has the support of Rabbi Dov Lior, president of the Council of Rabbis of Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), and Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, the chief rabbi of Safed and a candidate for the post of chief rabbi of Israel. A number of political leaders in Israel have also shown enthusiasm for the opinion, including Ori Lubiansky, head of the Jerusalem municipality.
There is no dispute among observers in Israel that the shooting in Jerusalem three weeks ago that killed eight Jewish students in a religious school was pivotal for Jewish authorities issuing religious opinions of a racist, hateful nature. The day following the Jerusalem incident, a number of rabbis led by Daniel Satobsky issued a religious opinion calling on Jewish youth and "all those who believe in the Torah" to take revenge on the Palestinians as hastily as possible. A week following the operation, a group of leading rabbis issued an unprecedented religious opinion permitting the Israeli army to bomb Palestinian civilian areas. The opinion is issued by the "Association of Rabbis of the Land of Israel" and states that Jewish religious law permits the bombing of Palestinian civilian residential areas if they are a source of attacks on Jewish residential areas. It reads, "when the residents of cities bordering settlements and Jewish centres fire shells at Jewish settlements with the aim of death and destruction, the Torah permits for shells to be fired on the sources of firing even if civilian residents are present there."
The opinion adds that sometimes it is necessary to respond with shelling to sources of fire immediately, without granting the Palestinian public prior warning. A week ago, Rabbi Eliyahu Kinvinsky, the second most senior authority in the Orthodox religious current, issued a religious opinion prohibiting the employment of Arabs, particularly in religious schools. This religious opinion followed another that had been issued by Rabbi Lior prohibiting the employment of Arabs and the renting of residential apartments to them in Jewish neighbourhoods. In order to provide a climate that allows Jewish extremist organisations to continue attacking Palestinian citizens, Rabbi Israel Ariel, one of the most prominent rabbis in the West Bank settlement complex, recently issued a religious opinion prohibiting religious Jews involved in attacks against Palestinians to appear before Israeli civil courts. According to this opinion, they must instead demand to appear before Torah courts that rule by Jewish religious law.
Haaretz newspaper noted that what Rabbi Ariel was trying to achieve through this religious opinion has in fact already taken place. The first instance of such a court in Kfar Saba ordered the release of a young Jewish woman called Tsevia Teshrael who attacked a Palestinian farmer in the middle of the West Bank. And there are Jewish religious authorities that glorify killing and praise terrorists, such as Rabbi Yitzhaq Ginsburg, a top rabbi in Israel who published a book entitled Baruch the Hero in memoriam of Baruch Goldstein, who committed the Ibrahimi Mosque massacre in 1994 when he opened fire and killed 29 Palestinians as they were performing the dawn prayer in Hebron in the southern West Bank. Ginsburg considers his act "honourable and glorious".
The danger of these religious opinions lies in the fact that the religious authorities issuing them have wide respect among religious Jewish youth. And while only 28 per cent of Israel's population is religious, more than 50 per cent of Israelis define themselves as conservative and grant major significance to opinions issued by Jewish religious authorities. According to a study conducted by the Social Sciences Department of Bar Elon University, more than 90 per cent of those who identify as religious believe that if state laws and government orders are incongruous with the content of religious opinions issued by rabbis, they must overlook the former and act in accordance with the latter.
What grants the racist religious opinions a deeper and far-reaching impact is the fact that for the last decade followers of the Zionist religious current, who form nearly 10 per cent of the population, have been seeking to take control of the army and security institutions. They are doing so through volunteering for service in special combat units. The spokesperson's office in the Israeli army says that although the percentage of followers of this current is low in the state's demographic makeup, they form more than 50 per cent of the officers in the Israeli army and more than 60 per cent of its special unit commanders. According to an opinion poll of religious officers and soldiers supervised by the Interdisciplinary Centre Herzliya and published last year, more than 95 per cent of religious soldiers and officers say that they will execute orders from the elected government and their leaders in the army only if they are in harmony with the religious opinions issued by leading rabbis and religious authorities.
Wasil Taha, Arab Knesset member from the Tajammu Party led by Azmi Bishara, says that these religious opinions lead to the committal of crimes. He mentions religious opinions issued by a number of rabbis in mid-1995 that led to the assassination of former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin at that time. "If that's what happens when religious opinions urge attacks against Jewish leaders such as Rabin, what will the situation be like when they urge attacks against Palestinian leaders and the Palestinian public?" he asks. "We, as Arab leaders, have begun to feel a lack of security following this flood of religious opinions, and we realise that the matter requires a great deal of caution in our movements as we are certain that there are those who seek to implement these opinions," he told Al-Ahram Weekly.
Taha dismisses those who ask about the role of the government and Israeli political cadre in confronting these extremist religious opinions. "The ministers in the Israeli government and the Knesset members compete to incite against the Palestinian public and don't hesitate to threaten expulsion of the Palestinians who live on their land in Israel and carry Israeli citizenship outside of Israel's borders, just as former deputy premier Avigdor Lieberman and representative Evi Etam did," Taha said. He notes that Palestinian citizens within Israel have begun to take extreme precautionary measures since the issue of these religious opinions, including security measures around mosques and public institutions and informing officials of public demonstrations so that members of Jewish terrorist organisations can be prevented from attacking participants. Taha holds that the sectors of the Palestinian population most likely to be harmed by these religious opinions are those living in the various cities populated by both Jews and Palestinians, such as Haifa, Jaffa, Lod, Ramleh and Jerusalem.
Palestinian writer and researcher Abdul-Hakim Mufid, from the city Um Fahem, holds that the religious opinions of rabbis have gained major significance due to the harmony between official rhetoric and that of the rabbis. Mufid notes that official Israeli establishments have not tried to confront the "fascist" rhetoric expressed in these religious opinions even though they are capable of doing so. "Most of the rabbis who issue tyrannical religious opinions are official employees in state institutions and receive salaries from them. And the state has not held these rabbis accountable or sought to prohibit the issue of such opinions," he told the Weekly.
Mufid points out that when the official political institution is in a crisis, the Zionist consensus behind these religious opinions grows more intense, and offers as an example the religious opinions relied upon by Rabbi Meir Kahane in the early 1980s to justify his call to forcefully expel the Palestinians. Mufid adds that Israel in practice encourages all those who kill Palestinians, and points to the way that the Israeli government dealt with the recommendations of the Orr Commission that investigated the Israeli police's killing of 13 Palestinians with Israeli citizenship in October of 2000. The government closed the file even though the commission confirmed that the police had acted aggressively towards the Palestinian citizens. Mufid suggests that what makes the racist rhetoric the rabbis insist upon influential is the silence of leftist and liberal voices, and the lack of any direct mobilisation against it.
_________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
......Sure enough the media will be full of calls that moderate Jews condemn such extremist views. Just joking. Only Muslims have to jump through hoops in this fashion. There will be no such calls because the Rabbi's views will never be aired. And silence differs from a nod and a wink how, exactly?
I understand that the Rabbi is an extremist and that the majority of Jewish people do not assert such views. Except for Zionists of course. Zionism was always as precise a definition of murderous racism as has ever existed. The Rabbi is them and they are he. We might also exclude Talmudic Jews. The Talmud is exceeded in its racism only by its secular version the Protocols of Zion. Personally, I recommend to all that they, in a spirit of honest inquiry, read the Protocols and decide for themselves if its description as a forgery rings true. Me, I've decided it's the logical, and perhaps even inevitable, translation of the Talmud into a secular 'how-to'.
Of course, the majority of Jews are neither Zionists nor Talmudic. They're non-religious. Here's where we discuss the flip-side 'ethnic' aspect of Jewishness - but let's just cut to the chase and say it's bs. It's arguable whether Ashkenazi/Khazari Jews are Turkic or Caucasian but either way they're about as Semitic as I am. If I was to say they define themselves as Jewish because they chose to hand their definition of themselves over to others I'd be in an unassailable position.
So, if they're not religious and their not ethnically Semitic, what are they? Apart from a people who, wherever they go and whomever they live amongst, choose to remain 'other'? And how is this not racist? How is it that the people they live amongst, who object to this perpetual choosing of 'otherness', cop the racist tag? They're anti-racist surely? If I was to describe the proud Jewish tradition of fighting racism as a sham designed to allow them to continue their own racism would I be wrong? Forget words, only actions count. The proof of the pudding of anti-racism is really simple - you smile as your kids marry the locals and cease to be 'other'. Sure enough, this is fought tooth and nail.
Regardless of historical Jewish assertions of being anti-racist, any people who so define themselves as being 'other' - generation after generation for the last 1200 years - is racist. The Rabbi's prescription of slaughter is merely the standard Jewish form of passive racism pushed to its ultimate conclusion. Again, let's cut to the chase. Let's see if any of the moderate Jews in the media have anything to say about the Rabbi's call to murder.
They'll say nothing, of course. Nor will they allow anyone else to do so. If anyone succeeded at this we'd see how far moderate Jews are from the Rabbi in viewing people as Amalekites. They know an Amalekite when they see one. And they know what an Amalekite deserves. They deserve assassination by media. It was always thus. The Rabbi merely says it out loud.
I call this murderous, racist Rabbi * (and anyone who's with him) out. If that makes me an Amalekite, dandy. I'll wear the title as a badge of honour. Who's with me? No need to decide. It's the Rabbi's appellation and he's decided for you. If you condemn the racist slaughter of innocents and choose not to be silent, you're it. The Rabbi has already stitched the Amalekite label onto your clothing. There's nothing for it, you may as well stand up and declare - We're all Amalekites now.
_________________ "The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
I must admit I nearly thought I'd have had to go out to the all day garage to stock up on some more Elastoplast in an attempt to staunch my bleeding heart, due to the travails of the brave free thinking unshackled upholders of free speech in merely speaking your minds.
Never mind that your professed viewpoint springs from your self-adopted, and possibly spurious, theory that the current day Israeli government apparently 'uses' the history of 60 years ago to somehow fully justify their present day murderous and oppressive apartheid policies.
Never mind that Israel is so obviously that it doesn't need stating, a client state that, like we inhabitants of Airstrip One, should in reality think of itself as Beachhead One.
Never mind that massacres and pogroms against the Jewish people have happened continuously, if sporadically, at least since York in the Twelfth Century and throughout Europe until modern times, and that up until recently the name 'jew' ran a close second to 'nigger' in the western lexicon.
Never mind that most of the so-called 'evidence' for your views come from sites so tainted by right wing groups, 'allegedly' in denial, yet still so poisonous that they'd show up on a switched off geiger counter.
Never mind that not never, no how, is Joe Public ever going to say or even think, on the strength of your convictions, in lieu of your lack of convincing evidence, - 'Oh the Holocaust wasn't as bad as we were told - maybe that Israeli Government's having us on when they say they're historically justified in treating the native Arab population as sub-human'.
I have to say that while your aims might (but only might) be well meaning, your tactics are nonsense. And stink worse.
In the midst of that bluster and blarney (charitable) we get an extraordinary piece of chutzpah -
"...in lieu of your lack of convincing evidence.."
Those not easily led astray by Mills and Boon like drivel might ask -
Who has the problem with the absence of evidence?
Those that say the claimed crime was not committed or those that claim it was?
Why are those that claim the crime to be self evident ready to post screeds of anything other than evidence?
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