Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:34 am Post subject:
A New Recruit for the Lynch Mob
outsider wrote:
Why don't all the 'Holocaust Deniers', anti-Semites and their apologists toddle off like good little Nazis and post on a Combat 88, NF or BNP forum? Haven't they got the message that their sorry ass*s aren't wanted here? Apart from the fact that it is offensive in the extreme to Jews in general and survivinng victims and relatives of victims of the Nazis in particular, as well as the great majority of non-Jews, it plays into the hands of 9/11 Truth enemies, and I'm sure that these 'Freedom of Speech' merchants cannot be unaware of the fact that 'Holocaust Denial' has been used to smear our campaign, and to lobby for our sites to be closed down. Is that the object of the exercise??
Toddle off, peddle your repulsive poison elsewhere, and do us all a favour.
Repulsive poison! You call a plea for freedom of speech and research “Repulsive poison?”
Point to one single phrase, sentence or word in any of my posts which justifies your thinly-veiled accusations that I am a Holocaust Denier, an anti-Semite, a Nazi or Nazi sympathiser or anyone likely to want to join people on Combat 88, NF or BNP, which sites I have never visited.
You cannot do so, because I am none of those things. This makes you another lynch-mob member, because you cannot tell the difference between fair comment and the kind of rabble-rousing hate speech you favour yourself: “Repulsive poison” indeed.
One day, probably in the not too distant future, when you are prevented from speaking your own mind, you may regret the thoughtlessly unjust stance you’ve taken today. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Global Holocaust-Deniers
Bill Passed In Knesset
By Nina Gilbert
8-4-5
Legislation that would make Holocaust-denial committed overseas an offense under Israeli legal jurisdiction was approved unanimously in first reading by the Knesset on Tuesday.
The passage of the measure would enable Israel to demand the extradition of Holocaust-deniers for prosecution.
The bill was drafted by MK Aryeh Eldad (National Union) as a move against former Palestinian Authority prime minister Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) for his doctoral dissertation 20 years ago in which he estimated that the Nazis killed less than a million Jews.
It is likely to serve as a deterrence against Holocaust-deniers visiting Israel, although the possibility of countries consenting to extradition on the offense is unlikely.
The legislation expands the territorial jurisdiction of the Israeli law against Holocaust-denying outside of it borders.
Here is a response from Nathan Milstein (not the late violinist) — August 4, 2005
Quote:
Jeff - I have read your site for years and often don't agree with the articles and essays on the site. However, as an American Jew, I cannot believe what has happened to my once peaceful and gentle people under the power and psychopathic dominance of Zionsim. This new 'law' is beyond belief.
I am repulsed by this supreme elitist idiocy. With this kind of megalomaniacal nonsense, Zionism continues to CREATE and fuel anti-Jewish sentiment around the world. Think about it. This Zionist lunacy only goes to confirm what many 'anti-semites' have been saying for years!
Americans must also keep in mind how Zionists have forced Bush/Cheney to install an entirely new division in the US Dept of State to monitor 'anti-semitism' everywhere on the planet. This is all utter madness.
'Anti-semitism', of course, has been recently redefined to include *any* criticism of the Zionist-controlled state of Israel and any of its inhuman policies towards the Palestinians.
I hope Americans can remember that all Jews do NOT condone or support this Israeli 'law'. And if anyone doubts the control Zionism has over Jews, just read the research articles by Jewish scholars Lenni Brenner, Dr. Henry Makow, Prof Norman Finkelstein and Israel Shamir among others. Thanks to Lenni Brenner, we now know that the Nazis had agreed to give all Jews safe passage out of Europe in 1942-43 for the paltry sum of $2 million dollars.
However, when top Rabbis went to Switzerland to world Zionist headquarters and asked for the money, the Zionists told them NO and to paraphrase the quote from Brenner: "Unless large amounts of Jewish blood is spilled during the war, we won't be able to so easily secure our new homeland in Palestine after the war."
So, in a pivotal sense, the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the Holocaust - as it was they who decided this catastrophe of death and suffering in the War had to continue to serve THEIR purposes. They sacrificed us - 'burnt offerings' - and they are still using us and Judaism today. Read it and weep: http://www.rense.com/general31/Zionist.htm
America must reject the new Zionist-Israeli 'law' and especially the idea that American citizens - or ANY citizen of ANY nation - might somehow be threatened with extradition to Israel to 'stand trial' for 'denying the Holocaust' ...which means, apparently, even asking questions about the 'official version' of what happened to us in the war.
As I said, this is total, utter insanity and seeks to destroy freedom of speech worldwide and instill fear of Zionist Israel and its masters. None of my friends that I have spoken to can believe this is happening...they think I am joking.
Wake up America, the clock is running and terminal madness is in the air. [emphases added]
So, outsider, are you going to get in touch with the Jewish Mr Milstein, and the other Jews whose research he quotes, and tell them to toddle off and peddle their repulsive anti-Semitic poison elsewhere?
I repeat, you and your ilk make me sick! _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
What is beyond doubt is that there have been posters here who have peddled anti-semitic poison on these boards. Can I check Anthony that (1) you acknowldge this and (2) that you support their exclusion from this forum? If not why not?
The kind of "audience" that finds it offensive to compare the nazis' treatment of Jews with the zionists' treatment of the Palestinians, is the zionists' audience, from whom nothing "productive" can be expected anyway. As they've amply proved, through more than 60 years of zionist atrocities, all in the name of lebensraum for the Chosen People.
That's the kind of "audience" that applauded, or remained silent, when the Palestinians were thrown out of their homes, when massacre after massacre after massacre was committed by the zionists, when Palestine was being obliterated so that Jews could immigrate and settle in place of the rightful owners of the land.
That kind of "audience" is already alienated from people of conscience, including many, many Jews, who reject the division of the world into categories of disposable people and Chosen People, and from those who always align themselves with the self-declared Chosen People (of course). And from those who demand that everybody else accept their own sick and evil value system, or else...they're offended.
Imagine: some people are more alienated by the comparison between nazis and zionists, than by the daily atrocities, than by the reality that people are being deliberately starved, terrorized and murdered at will, by a rogue terrorist state! They fear offending the infamously vindictive zionists so much, that they can't bring themselves to condemn severe war crimes, let alone do anything to stop them.
People like that, I'm pleased to "alienate", along with their pea-brained minions and apologists.
Thank goodness for those, like Gilad Atzmon, ex-zionist, ex-Israeli, who have CHOSEN to identify themselves as PEOPLE of conscience and humanity, rather than as the alienated members of some mythical master race and their allies, who think like them.
Gilad Atzmon - Freedom of Speech: the right to equate Gaza with Auschwitz
“They (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves” (Matan Vilnai, Israeli Deputy Defence Minister, 29 February 2008)
It is clear beyond any doubt that the Israeli Deputy Defence Minister was far from being reluctant to equate Israel with Nazi Germany when revealing the genocidal future awaiting the Palestinian people, yet, for some reason, this is precisely what Western media outlets refrain from doing. In spite of the facts that are right in front of our eyes, in spite of the starvation in Gaza, in spite of an Israeli official admitting genocidal inclinations against the Palestinians, in spite of the mounting carnage and death, we are still afraid to admit that Gaza is a concentration camp and it is on the verge of becoming a deadly one. For some peculiar reason, many of us have yet to accept that as far as evil is concerned, Israel is the world champion in mercilessness and vengeance.............
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: So what?
Beyond whose doubt?
ian neal wrote:
What is beyond doubt is that there have been posters here who have peddled anti-semitic poison on these boards. Can I check Anthony that (1) you acknowldge this and (2) that you support their exclusion from this forum? If not why not?
There you go. Something which you believe "...is beyond doubt."
How would I know if what YOU judge to be "anti-Semitic poison" is, in fact, anti-Semitic poison?
You have previously suggested that I should go and post on sites which you judge to be anti-Semitic. I have never even bothered to visit these sites, because I know that I am not anti-Semitic, but I am certainly anti-Zionist, and most Zionists are Jews; not my problem, just a fact. But that's the kind of twisted connections that you and others, spurred on by the Anti Defamation League are making.
Now you seem to be back-peddling on your implication that I have been disseminating “anti-Semitic” poison, and asking me to acknowledge that others have been doing so. A step in the right direction, but what the hell can I do about someone who has, in your view, "peddled anti-Semitic poison" on any website? Nothing! Any more than I could prevent someone from releasing sarin gas in the Tokyo underground, again. Are you recommending shutting down all underground railways, because that actually happened, once?
You are not thinking straight. It is people like you and Gosling and "outsider" and Dogsmilk who make the extraordinary quantum leap: that any mention of the Holocaust on a 9/11 website puts people off embracing the 9/11 truth movement. Among others, Tony Gosling has firmly linked the Mossad to 9/11: "Mossad trick - Link 9/11 Truth to Holocaust denial"; Mossad was born in Israel; Israel was born, largely, because of the Holocaust, as stated above.
Quote:
"Unless large amounts of Jewish blood is spilled during the war, we won't be able to so easily secure our new homeland in Palestine after the war."
Yet you want the event which was clearly one of the major driving forces behind the birth of modern-day Israel and the Zionist’s steady rise in power and their expulsion of an entire people—apartheid, ethnic cleansing, genocide, call it what you will—and the almost certain connection between Israel’s interests and the attacks of 9/11 to be relegated to known anti-Semitic, rabble rousing websites.
This website should be taking the lead in joining up these very clear, very large dots, in a measured and careful manner, so as NOT to encourage any untoward religious tensions, but you want these dots erased or muddied over so that we don’t “offend” anyone. I’ve never heard of any family being offended when those who murdered some of their number have been exposed and put on trial, even posthumously. That is utter rubbish.
It is the murderers, and their beneficiaries who want to cover up the truth. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: Spreading the Truth
Spreading the Truth
blackbear wrote:
For some peculiar reason, many of us have yet to accept that as far as evil is concerned, Israel is the world champion in mercilessness and vengeance.............
Well said. So why not put this forum, whatever happens to it, at the forefront of spreading that piece of truth around? _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: So what?
Anthony Lawson wrote:
How would I know if what YOU judge to be "anti-Semitic poison" is, in fact, anti-Semitic poison?
Well if you read the 'holocaust thread' which I know you followed, I am very specific about what posts I object to so you should know what I consider anti-semitic poison
Anthony Lawson wrote:
You have previously suggested that I should go and post on sites which you judge to be anti-Semitic.
I have? Not that I'm aware of.
I have said those who bang on about the holocaust on a 9/11 related site are damaging the likelihood of wider public support for 9/11 truth and that if you want to expose the criminal nature of the Israeli state you are far better focussing on the USS Liberty or recent crimes than the holocaust gas chambers.
I would argue that Zionists are worse than Nazis.
It is a historical fact that the Stern Gang were allies of Hitler against the Brits and killed many of our boys in terrorist attacks.
Zionists regard Arabs as being sub human, they regard Sephardic Jews as a second class race.
But the interesting thing we have today is there are many Zionists no longer hiding there true beliefs
Watch and learn!
Over the past several months of 2008, Israel advocacy organizations
have entered a period of ongoing mobilization in an effort to
decisively counter what they see as the growing influence and impact
of the Palestine solidarity movement.
After spending years trying to find its footing in the aftermath of
the Oslo Accords, the Palestine solidarity movement has found a new
strategic focus with the emergence of the campaign for boycott,
divestment and sanctions (BDS), which has effectively shifted the
terms of the Israel-Palestine debate and presented a clear analysis of
the apartheid reality facing Palestinians.
These shifts have thrown the mainstream Zionist movement into a state
of crisis as it finds itself unable to effectively counter the charge
of apartheid. In addition, Zionist organizations find themselves
increasingly isolated (with the exception of right-wing, conservative
and Christian evangelical circles) as the solidarity movement
continues to gain traction amongst an ever larger spectrum of
audiences and organizations.
It is against this backdrop that a divided Zionist movement is seeking
ways to reverse their organizational and ideological disarray. Most
significantly, the emergence of this repressive trend directed at
Palestine solidarity work is converging with a broader targeting of
students who are active in other struggles.
Shifting Solidarity: The Development of a New Politics in the Aftermath of Oslo ............
The Israel at 60 celebrations have given the Zionist movement ample
time and opportunity to mobilize their constituency and the public
around the issues pertaining to Israel's perceived success and
challenges. Yet, even their celebrations are facing boycotts.
Palestinian citizens of Israel have refused to take part,
participating instead in commemorations of the Nakba. Over 100
Palestinian organizations have called for boycotts, and international
cultural festivals are now routinely marred by controversy, opposition
and boycott when attempting to `celebrate' the 60 years of Palestinian
dispossession and ethnic-cleansing on which the Israeli state was founded.
The celebrations, like much of the programming undertaken to counter
the work done by the solidarity movement has as its aim the
elimination from public discussion of any references to refugees, or
their inherent right of return. They want to eliminate discussion of
settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing in Palestine, a practice that
is ongoing. Above all, the understanding of Israel as an apartheid
state, which has served to put all these other policies into a
coherent historical context, is to be sidelined from public
discussion. Repressive efforts towards these ends are ongoing, but are
assured no guarantee of success.
Opposition to Israeli apartheid has grown significantly, and Zionist
propaganda efforts look increasingly desperate as they either try to
avoid the issue of apartheid, or counter it with the superficialities
of life for Palestinian citizens of the state of Israel. Nevertheless,
this counter-mobilization is something that must be discussed and
combated. The Zionist movement is increasingly resorting to
intimidation, repression and bureaucratic measures that are closing
space for debate, organizing and action on our campuses and in our
communities. It is imperative that the left and progressive movements
in Canada understand this, draw the appropriate conclusions, and act
accordingly. •
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 6060 Location: East London
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject:
[quote="Anthony Lawson"]A New Recruit for the Lynch Mob
outsider wrote:
Why don't all the 'Holocaust Deniers', anti-Semites and their apologiststoddle off like good little Nazis and post on a Combat 88, or BNP forum? Haven't they got the message that their sorry ass*s aren't wanted here? [b]Apart from the fact that it is offensive in the extreme to Jews in general and survivinng victims and relatives of victims of the Nazis in particular, as well as the great majority of non-Jews, it plays into the hands of 9/11 Truth enemies, and I'm sure that these 'Freedom of Speech' merchants cannot be unaware of the fact that 'Holocaust Denial' has been used to smear our campaign, and to lobby for our sites to be closed down. Is that the object of the exercise??[/b]
Toddle off, peddle your repulsive poison elsewhere, and do us all a favour.
I have not singled posts out, for one thing I don't have the time to go through them all. You would come under the 'apologist' category; and you seem to have ignored my point re the gratuitous offense to Jews, especially survivors and relatives of victims, and also the point about this type of post playing right into the hands of 9/11 Truth Campaigners' enemies.
Re your following post:
'However, when top Rabbis went to Switzerland to world Zionist headquarters and asked for the money, the Zionists told them NO and to paraphrase the quote from Brenner: "Unless large amounts of Jewish blood is spilled during the war, we won't be able to so easily secure our new homeland in Palestine after the war."
So, in a pivotal sense, the Zionists were ultimately responsible for the Holocaust - as it was they who decided this catastrophe of death and suffering in the War had to continue to serve THEIR purposes. They sacrificed us - 'burnt offerings' - and they are still using us and Judaism today. Read it and weep: http://www.rense.com/general31/Zionist.htm'
I certainly wouldn't object to that sort of information - I haven't checked the links out, but they are not 'Holocaust Denial'. That the leaders should sell their people down the river is not a new situation, and is not specific to Jews. _________________ 'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7.
I would argue that Zionists are worse than Nazis.
It is a historical fact that the Stern Gang were allies of Hitler against the Brits and killed many of our boys in terrorist attacks.
Zionists regard Arabs as being sub human, they regard Sephardic Jews as a second class race.
But the interesting thing we have today is there are many Zionists no longer hiding there true beliefs
Watch and learn!
Listen carefully to what is reported.
NAZISM IS LEGAL IN ISRAEL
The video you linked to this post does not seem to back up your argument - surely you are not suggesting that the Israeli Govt. encourages this behaviour?
What it seems to suggest to me is that anti-Semitism is rampant still, even in Israel (I have seen this clip before, and it did surprise me). The Soviet Union has, of course, a long record of harsh anti-Semitism.
Your 'Boycott Israel' business is not in any way offensive (there are Jewish groups worldwide, including in the UK, who campaign for it) but the flashing pictures are extremely annoying and distracting, at least to me.
They distract from not only your message, but from other posts in the vicinity (needless to say, that is not a bannable offense!!). _________________ 'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:13 am Post subject: Re: So what?
The Truth: No Conditions!
Ian Neal wrote:
Anthony Lawson wrote:
How would I know if what YOU judge to be "anti-Semitic poison" is, in fact, anti-Semitic poison?
Well if you read the 'holocaust thread' which I know you followed, I am very specific about what posts I object to so you should know what I consider anti-semitic poison
From what I’ve read, and please correct me if I am wrong, you appear to consider that just about any doubt expressed, about the extent of the holocaust or the existence of gas chambers designed with the specific purpose of terminating the lives of human beings, constitutes “anti-Semitic poison.”
I cannot think of any other historical event to which such extraordinary “rules” might be applied. If someone found evidence to suggest that the numbers of Australians, Burmese, Chinese, Dutch, Filipinos, Indonesians, Malays, New Zealanders, Singaporeans, and others, who died under the yoke of the Japanese during World War II, had been previously exaggerated, and that far more had died of tropical diseases than had been executed, would that person’s research grant be cut off, or their livelihood otherwise affected? Would he or she be charged with some kind of “denial” or “revisionist” crime, extradited to another country and not allowed fair representation by defence council? Would anyone who dared to testify on the defendant’s behalf be liable to similar charges? Would the following, chilling edict be applied:
The Truth is No Defence
As I have said before, I don’t know whether or not the Holocaust has been exaggerated, or whether the gas chambers were built with the express purpose of ending human lives, because whenever someone makes a suggestion that this may have been the case, they are, figuratively, run out of town and, quite often, their means of existence taken from them by the ADL’s lynch mob, who have never, to my knowledge, brought solid evidence to prove their own assertions. Their methods are all based on fear.
Ian Neal wrote:
Anthony Lawson wrote:
You have previously suggested that I should go and post on sites which you judge to be anti-Semitic.
I have? Not that I'm aware of.
This following was recently posted immediately under one of my posts, and it does not appear to apply to anyone else.
Ian Neal wrote:
And if you don't, you are on the wrong site. If I were you I would rush off and find a corner of cyber space that still allows the incitement of "racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence" and get busy while you still can.
An unequivocal and hateful invitation, in my opinion. But let's move on to more important issues. The assertions that you and others make, such as:
Ian Neal wrote:
I have said those who bang on about the holocaust on a 9/11 related site are damaging the likelihood of wider public support for 9/11 truth ...
... are, at best, unprovable, or at the very least, not worth much, when looking at the Bigger Picture.
I would suggest that if you and others like you stopped painting any discussion of the Holocaust, and the distinct possibility that it was engineered or largely brought about by Zionists—whose ambitions were to achieve their Promised-Land dream—as being anti-Semitic, racist or having Nazi overtones, are doing far more damage to the cause of truth, in general, which, will, inevitably, affect the more specific area covered by the 9/11 truth movement.
Anyone who doubts that the Zionists’ ambitions about Palestine were planned well in advance of what happened in 1933, with the international Jewish declaration of war on Germany, shortly after Hitler came to power, but long before any official German government sanctions or reprisals against Jews were carried out, should ponder the following:
Albert Einstein, although in favour of a Jewish homeland, made it clear that he would be against it becoming a nation state, and he warned that displacing other people to create one would lead to all sorts of problems. In a letter to Chiam Wiezmann, a Pole who later became Israel's first president, he wrote: "... Should we be unable to find a way to honest co-operation and honest pacts with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our 2,000 years of suffering...."
Einstein’s letter, declining Weizmann’s offer for him to become Israel’s first president, was written on November 25th, 1929. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: Vile accusations
Vile Accusations
outsider wrote:
I have not singled posts out, for one thing I don't have the time to go through them all. You would come under the 'apologist' category; and you seem to have ignored my point re the gratuitous offense to Jews, especially survivors and relatives of victims, and also the point about this type of post playing right into the hands of 9/11 Truth Campaigners' enemies.
So, you admit that you can’t find anything I’ve written which justifies your thinly-veiled accusations that I am a Holocaust Denier, an anti-Semite, a Nazi or Nazi sympathiser or anyone likely to want to join people on Combat 88, NF or BNP. So you are now accusing me of being an ‘apologist’, presumably for those kinds of people. Have you got a dictionary? Do you know what being an apologist means? defender; supporter; ally; protector; champion.
Unless you are just plain ignorant, the only conclusion that I can reach is that you are a nasty piece of work, throwing such vile accusations about with absolutely no attempt to back them up. Your comments are excellent examples of what you seem to be so concerned about: Hate speech.
One of your other problems is that you don’t appear to be able to follow a forum topic. Your point re. “gratuitous offence to Jews” I'd already covered in another post, five posts above your response. If you only read what you think may be addressed to you, you are not going to learn much about what else is going on.
Anthony Lawson wrote:
This website should be taking the lead in joining up these very clear, very large dots, in a measured and careful manner, so as NOT to encourage any untoward religious tensions, but you want these dots erased or muddied over so that we don’t “offend” anyone. I’ve never heard of any family being offended when those who murdered some of their number have been exposed and put on trial, even posthumously. That is utter rubbish.
It is the murderers, and their beneficiaries who want to cover up the truth.
_________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Go back and read more carefully what I have written. You are completely misrepresenting what I have written and my position. Can I be arsed to show you where you have done this and to talk you through yet again what I am actually saying? No. Life's too short.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: Dishonesty
Dishonesty
Ian Neal wrote:
Anthony
Go back and read more carefully what I have written. You are completely misrepresenting what I have written and my position. Can I be arsed to show you where you have done this and to talk you through yet again what I am actually saying? No. Life's too short.
I have done just that:
Ian Neal wrote:
If I were you I would rush off and find a corner of cyber space that still allows the incitement of "racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence" and get busy while you still can.
Anyone who would claim that I could have misrepresented the highlighted words, above, is too dishonest to bother with.
It is people like you, and the less-intelligent “outsider,” who, far from promoting measured tolerance for the views of others, are the hateful rabble rousers who turn their own preconceptions into self-fulfilling prophesies. _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Dishonesty
Anthony Lawson wrote:
Dishonesty
Ian Neal wrote:
Anthony
Go back and read more carefully what I have written. You are completely misrepresenting what I have written and my position. Can I be arsed to show you where you have done this and to talk you through yet again what I am actually saying? No. Life's too short.
I have done just that:
Ian Neal wrote:
If I were you I would rush off and find a corner of cyber space that still allows the incitement of "racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence" and get busy while you still can.
Anyone who would claim that I could have misrepresented the highlighted words, above, is too dishonest to bother with.
It is people like you, and the less-intelligent “outsider,” who, far from promoting measured tolerance for the views of others, are the hateful rabble rousers who turn their own preconceptions into self-fulfilling prophesies.
OK I will take the time to demonstrate how you are misrepresenting me and then I will attempt to withdraw from these tedious circular discussions.
Simple Simon starts the thread so
Quote:
(Yet another) Jewish group calling for web censorship:
Yet when I check what the group is saying, it says
Quote:
“Clearly a line has to be drawn between freedom of speech, voicing of differing opinions – and material that just incites racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence. When that line is crossed, that material ought not to be freely available to all who log onto the web.”
I say I agree, which not surprising since this is precisely the rules of the forum. Namely users are allowed freedom of speech and the opportunity to voice differing opinions, but if any material "incites racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence" this is not allowed. No ifs and no buts. If you check my posts you will see I have never called for people to be banned just because they posts opinions that differ to my own or talk about subjects such as the holocaust which are highly sensitive and IMO counter-productive to the 9/11 truth movement. What I do object to and have done so consistently is when people cross the line and start posting material that is liable to incite racial hatred and in the holocaust thread I pointed out some very specific examples where I believe this line was crossed.
I then go on to say IF you (as in the plural you, not you specifically Anthony) do not agree with me on this (i.e material which incites racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence should be banned) then you (plural) are on the wrong site.
You then go on to say
Quote:
I agree. What I do not agree with is that discussions regarding the accuracy of the accounts which lead up to a certain event, or the accuracy of the historical record regarding the many facets of the event itself can be classified as “hate speech” under the rules, above.
But since I don't classify discussion of the holocaust as "hate speech" per se then you appear to be accusing me of something that I'm not saying. It is specific posts on that thread that I objected to, ones which in my opinion crossed the line and were liable to 'incite racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence' and ones which led Tony to ban certain users.
But enough of this. I've said all this before. For all of you (plural)holocaust 'obcessives' out there [the vast majority of whom I have no idea who you are: something which itself makes me suspicious] who are busy moaning away at how your precious freedom of speech is being stiffled, la, la, la, the opportunity was available to you to throw your hats in the ring and seek to run the forum the way you would choose. You choose not to do this, which tells me everything.
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: Dishonesty
ian neal wrote:
[the vast majority of whom I have no idea who you are: something which itself makes me suspicious] who are busy moaning away at how your precious freedom of speech is being stiffled, la, la, la,
This is not about anyone's ego or their 'preciousness.
It is about a point of principle......and that's what goes on on this forum, isn't it.....people hammer out issues in the hope of coming to a clear view about the important principles underlying situations.
ian neal wrote:
the opportunity was available to you to throw your hats in the ring and seek to run the forum the way you would choose. You choose not to do this, which tells me everything.
I find this comment, frankly, weird.
How many users would even begin to entertain the idea of 'running' this forum, whatever that means?
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 6060 Location: East London
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Vile accusations
Anthony Lawson wrote:
Vile Accusations
outsider wrote:
I have not singled posts out, for one thing I don't have the time to go through them all. You would come under the 'apologist' category; and you seem to have ignored my point re the gratuitous offense to Jews, especially survivors and relatives of victims, and also the point about this type of post playing right into the hands of 9/11 Truth Campaigners' enemies.
So, you admit that you can’t find anything I’ve written which justifies your thinly-veiled accusations that I am a Holocaust Denier, an anti-Semite, a Nazi or Nazi sympathiser or anyone likely to want to join people on Combat 88, NF or BNP. So you are now accusing me of being an ‘apologist’, presumably for those kinds of people. Have you got a dictionary? Do you know what being an apologist means? defender; supporter; ally; protector; champion.
Unless you are just plain ignorant, the only conclusion that I can reach is that you are a nasty piece of work, throwing such vile accusations about with absolutely no attempt to back them up. Your comments are excellent examples of what you seem to be so concerned about: Hate speech.
One of your other problems is that you don’t appear to be able to follow a forum topic. Your point re. “gratuitous offence to Jews” I'd already covered in another post, five posts above your response. If you only read what you think may be addressed to you, you are not going to learn much about what else is going on.
Anthony Lawson wrote:
This website should be taking the lead in joining up these very clear, very large dots, in a measured and careful manner, so as NOT to encourage any untoward religious tensions, but you want these dots erased or muddied over so that we don’t “offend” anyone. I’ve never heard of any family being offended when those who murdered some of their number have been exposed and put on trial, even posthumously. That is utter rubbish.
It is the murderers, and their beneficiaries who want to cover up the truth.
If you defend the right of 'Holocaust Deniers' to post their poison on these forums, to me that makes you an 'apologist' of theirs.
I also 'have never heard of any family being offended when those who murdered some of their number have been exposed and put on trial , even posthumously' (as you posted above) - but what we are dealing with here is the diametric opposite - people were hanged for the terrible crimes committed by the Nazis, and our 'history-rewriting Holocaust Deniers' are saying they were not guilty - to that I would expect the 'family members' to be offended about, and rightly so.
This poisonous bullsh*t should not be appearing on our site.
Only today, I had a left-wing Jew activist refusing to enter into discussion on 9/11, saying 'all 'conspiracy theorists are Jew-haters'; rubbish, but I'm glad he hadn't visited our Forum, it would have confirmed his baseless belief 1.000%.
And may I remind you, I did not point the finger at you - you included yourself in the categories I posted about, and then somehow 'forgot' the apologist category I had included. If the shoe fits, wear it; if not, don't. Simple, really. Check what I posted: (copied from your 'reply') -
outsider wrote:
Why don't all the 'Holocaust Deniers', anti-Semites and their apologists toddle off like good little Nazis and post on a Combat 88, NF or BNP forum? Haven't they got the message that their sorry ass*s aren't wanted here? Apart from the fact that it is offensive in the extreme to Jews in general and survivinng victims and relatives of victims of the Nazis in particular, as well as the great majority of non-Jews, it plays into the hands of 9/11 Truth enemies, and I'm sure that these 'Freedom of Speech' merchants cannot be unaware of the fact that 'Holocaust Denial' has been used to smear our campaign, and to lobby for our sites to be closed down. Is that the object of the exercise??
Toddle off, peddle your repulsive poison elsewhere, and do us all a favour.
This is all getting rather circular and stupid, really; I repeat my message:
HOLOCAUST DENIERS AND ANTI-SEMITIC POSTERS SHOULD BE BANNED, ALONG WITH THEIR APOLOGISTS, IF THEY PERSIST IN THEIR DEMANDS FOR THE 'DENIERS' FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
As it is not in my power to ban you, you can carry on posting till the cows come home, or until you are banned, but until then, I am not wasting any more time on you, PERIOD. fin _________________ 'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7.
Please read what the article
A Zionist leader clearly states that the life of ONE zionist is worth 1000 arabs. He also says many other things and basically practises the same ideology as Menachem Begin and others before him.
Nazi beliefs were based on their concept of a master race.
Outsider, i know you are slightly sympathetic to Israel, but you must agree that Zionism also promotes the idea of a master race.
The effects of zionism has been devastating.
Many wars, much bloodshed and an ongoing genocide.
Why do you think that Jewish religious leaders are opposed to zionism?
Because Jews are basically good people. Zionism is an evil facist political system which has seduced some of them like it has seduced many right wing Christians.
If study of World War 2 history becomes illegal then are the same evil acts not going to continue happening over and over?
The Neo Nazis in Israel targetted the religious Jews. Because zionists regard Jews as their enemy.
This forum has been busy with discussion about WW2 however, we have neglected to talk about the genocide against Jews.
I am ofcourse refering to the genocide carried out by Israel against the SEPHARDIC Jews during the 1950s
In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba, flew to America and returned with seven x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.
They were used in a mass atomic poisoning experiment with an entire generation of Sephardic Jews used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardic Jew was given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million.
People whose religion is 6 million 60 years ago. (The thought that might not be so is a problem for them.)
While many who despise the controlled BNP are in denile about the present day genocide of Muslims who live near the Global Zionazi occupied land in Palestine.
Maybe, those who post a different version of WW2 events.
Over To Gilad Atzmon..
Those amongst us who support the Palestinian people, those amongst us who are devastated by the growing scale of Israeli atrocities, those who want to bring justice to Palestine and this includes bringing Palestinians back to their land, will have to make up their minds sooner or later. From now on, everything we do or say about the Jewish state is seen by one Jew or another as anti-Semitism. We have to make up our minds and decide once and for all, is it world Jewry which we are trying to appease, or is it the Palestinians we are fighting for? I myself made up my mind. For me it is Palestine and the Palestinian people. If this makes me into an anti-Semite in the eyes of some confused Diaspora Jews (left, right and centre), I will have to learn to live with it. At the end of the day, I cannot make everyone happy.
Already in 1973, Abba Eban, then Israeli foreign minister, identified anti-Zionism as ?the new anti-Semitism?:
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Dishonesty
kbo234 wrote:
It is about a point of principle...
Indeed it is and that principle is no racism
kbo234 wrote:
ian neal wrote:
The opportunity was available to you to throw your hats in the ring and seek to run the forum the way you would choose. You choose not to do this, which tells me everything.
I find this comment, frankly, weird.
How many users would even begin to entertain the idea of 'running' this forum, whatever that means?
Way less than 1%, surely...
Running this forum isn't complicated. It's about paying the bills, deciding the rules, ensuring they are adhered to and deciding its structure. That's about it. Those currently complaining about the site's moderation (which I remind people has not been my responsibility for over 6 months) with particular reference to the holocaust have failed to put their money and time where their mouths are and to step forward and offer to accept the responsibility when the opportunity arose. Probably because they know they wouldn't attract sufficient support. So basically if you don't like the way the forum is run, tough. You will have to take up the issue with site's management once the forum's future is decided in the near future or set up your own forum
And Karlos and Blackbear why you are posting the material you are on this thread is beyond me. Completely irrelevant.
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 6060 Location: East London
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject:
karlos, I will definitely read and watch the info you asked me to, as soon as I have the time.
I do not object to Israeli crimes being denounced - I do it myself (there can hardly be a subject the Israelis want kept out of the limelight more than the 'USS Liberty' - they would far rather everyone and their uncles denied the Holocaust - that they can deal with - the 'Liberty' they can't). Check the Jewish Chronicle archives for a mention of it, or of the Admiral who was airlifted onto the Liberty on it's way to get patched up in Malta, and to threaten the survivors with courts martial, prison OR WORSE, Isaac Kidd. Not a peep.
And I have been on a number of pro-Palestinian Demo's, at most of which there was narry a 9/11'er to be found (other than me, of course).
As you are aware, I am a Christian, but there are a great many Jews who support the Palestinians, and we should all be aware of this.
Having become aware of some of the stuff on this site, I wonder that Simon hasn't pulled the plug long ago. If I were in his shoes, I certailnly would have. Having said that, I still don't want the plug pulled!! _________________ 'And he (the devil) said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them'. Luke IV 5-7.
We need to proceed from the treatment of the Sephardic children by x-ray and look at the treatment of Palestinians in the concentration camps of Gaza and elsewhere. These are ongoing evidenced atrocities perpetrated by the Israeli authorities and nothing to do with historical jewishness
Until we can get the present day sorted out and the recent evidenced past, we can never get sorted out accusations of anti-semitism
It's completely false but people set themselves up all over by careless talk _________________ http://www.exopolitics-leeds.co.uk/introduction
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Dishonesty
ian neal wrote:
kbo234 wrote:
It is about a point of principle...
Indeed it is and that principle is no racism
Slippery logic here, Ian.
Israel is the most racist state on earth. It is persecuting and murdering its non-Jewish citizens on a daily basis. It will not even grant automatic citizenship to non-Jewish partners of Jewish Israelis after marriage.
I suppose you could call me a racist for pointing this out. You certainly more-or-less called me a racist for pointing out that the person who is closing down this site is Jewish.......
.......apart from the fact that it is pretty disreputable, in my opinion, to close down one of the most open and effective forums in this country I think it is fair comment to connect this act with the fact that the entire media in this country and the USA is controlled by Jewish people. Mr Aronowitz, IMO, is acting like a classic 'gatekeeper', shutting down the debate when it gets too close to the bone. He might be a person of perfectly good character as might every individual with influence over the media.......however, there are certain things that need saying......
........and it is the 'holocaust' meme that makes people afraid to say them.
It is only on this forum that I have seen these difficult issues fairly openly, and mostly quite fairly, discussed.
The way I see the world is this. Over the last decade or so, the whole western world has effectively become, under the direction of banking/corporate power, a Zionist Empire.
The USA/UK/Israel/EU are all in on the game. We have a situation unique in history where The inmates of a concentration camp called Gaza are suffering vile persecution but we (USA/UK/Israel/EU) apply sanctions not against the persecutor but against the victim. The situation is so astonishing and appalling it takes one's breath away.
.....but the Zionist agenda is a superficial one....the real, long-term agenda is a one-world government under the control of the bankers who will manufacture all our money for us and, hence, control everything.
I believe that God, or the principle of Universal Love that exists in the universe and in the heart of every individual....will never allow this......
......but we must play our part in the process.
The plan is this. The Zionist agenda serves the purpose of creating the division and hatred that will bring on the final conflict that will create the unparalled suffering that will presage the transition to a 'New World Order'.
The people driving this agenda care nothing for the lives or well-being of Jewish people any more than they care about the rest of us.
It might, credibly and very possibly, be that 'the Jews' are being set up for another 'holocaust'. A final sacrifice to Lucifer before delivering his reign to earth.
If this sounds demented see below*.
One way or another, our fate and our children's fate and the destiny of our world is tied up with the actions and destiny of the Jewish people.
To forbid people from discussing every aspect of this is, in my view, a counterproductive move. A mistake. You have to go through Zionism to get to the core issue which is the (Luciferian IMO) banking agenda.
You might snort to read this but....full respect and honour to yourself and Mr. Aronowitz for your work in setting up and maintaining this site, Ian. It is actually easy to understand his intolerance of our discussing the horrible holocaust issues.
.......nevertheless some of us feel we must argue the case against you......and it is no use one side maligning the motives of the other in this argument. If such material is banned....so be it....but, in the best traditions of this forum, do not expect people to say anything other than exactly what they think.....while it remains possible.
How many bloody times. Yes I know Israeli state is institutionally racist every bit as much as apartheid South Africa.
I am objecting to content and links that "incites racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence". That is the point of principle. Naff all specifically to do with zionism or Israel.
And I further object to having to repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
Joined: 20 Feb 2007 Posts: 370 Location: Phuket, Thailand
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:45 am Post subject:
This Website for Sale?
Ian Neal wrote:
The opportunity was available to you to throw your hats in the ring and seek to run the forum the way you would choose. You choose not to do this, which tells me everything.
Was the opportunity really available? Or are you just using that as a stick to beat us all with, for not jumping up and taking advantage of your offer?
Correct me if I have missed something, but it is my understanding that the domain owner has refused to sell or transfer what is cybernetically necessary to maintain the continuing integrity of this site, under the same URL, or whatever. So, no matter how many hats are thrown in the ring—one member has posted that he offered to buy the site, but did not get any reply, and a Dutch site agreed to host it for nothing—it would appear that buying the site, as a going concern, is not an option, as you seem to be now saying:
ian neal wrote:
blackbear wrote:
Hello Ian..
What is the price that Simon will sell the domain for.?
PM if you wish.....
As I understand it, it is not an issue of price
Therefore, you appear to be speaking with a forked tongue, and not for the first time, as I see it. If it is not an issue of price, this means that it is conditional on something other than price. So what might that something be?
kb234 wrote:
You might snort to read this but....full respect and honour to yourself and Mr. Aronowitz for your work in setting up and maintaining this site, Ian.
Although I agree with many of kb234’s thoughtful posts, I’m growing less respectful of Ian Neal, and there is a growing suspicion, in my mind, that we may be seeing the inevitable outcome of something which was preordained, from the outset, as far as controlling what was and what was not to be open to full and frank discussion on this forum.
‘Follow the Money’, and ‘Who Benefits?’ are two common admonitions given by experienced investigators when it comes to tracking down the perpetrators of any crime. Israel has, from the outset, been suspiciously linked to the events of 9/11: “The Dancing Israelis” and Netanyahu saying that the 9/11 terror attacks were good for Israel, cannot be ignored. It is also worth remembering that the rulers of Israel are not renowned for waiting until world events move in their favour. And then there’s Mossad’s alleged motto: “By Deception Shalt Thou Do War.”
So I won’t beat about the bush, I’ll just ask, while donning my hard hat and Kevlar vest:
How can we be sure that control of this forum was not planned, from its inception, so that it could be controlled and retained, or shut down at the whim of a person, or persons, whose sympathies lie more with Israel than they do with the stated aims of this forum? _________________ The truth won't set you free, but identifying the liars could help make the world a better place.
Joined: 10 Dec 2005 Posts: 2017 Location: Croydon, Surrey
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:58 am Post subject:
ian neal wrote:
How many bloody times. Yes I know Israeli state is institutionally racist every bit as much as apartheid South Africa.
I am objecting to content and links that "incites racial hatred, religious intolerance and violence". That is the point of principle. Naff all specifically to do with zionism or Israel.
And I further object to having to repeat the same thing over and over and over again.
I was hoping you'd be clearer about whether it is racist to point out that Mr Aronowitz is Jewish (or Mr Chomsky or Amy Goodman) in relation to the issue of 'opposition' leaders directing people away from issues relating to Jewish control of our collective consciousness.
You are not the only one who has to go round and round in circles.
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