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blackcat
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 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:32 am Post subject: Christians clash at Jesus' tomb on Orthodox Palm Sunday |
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080420/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_clashing_chr istians_1
| Quote: |
Christians clash at Jesus' tomb on Orthodox Palm Sunday
By SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Writer, Sun Apr 20, 3:49 PM ET
JERUSALEM - Dozens of Greek and Armenian priests and worshippers exchanged blows at one of Christianity's holiest shrines on Orthodox Palm Sunday, and used palm fronds to pummel police who tried to break up the brawl.
The fight came amid growing rivalry over religious rights at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, built over the site in Jerusalem where tradition says Jesus was buried and resurrected.
It erupted when Armenian clergy kicked out a Greek priest from their midst, pushed him to the ground and kicked him, according to witnesses.
When police intervened, some worshippers hit them with the palm fronds they were holding for the religious holiday. The Eastern Orthodox churches, including the Armenians and Greek Orthodox, follow a different calendar from Western Christians and celebrate Easter next Sunday.
Two Armenian worshippers who attacked the Greek Orthodox clergy were briefly detained by Israeli police. Scores of Armenian supporters then protested outside the police station during the questioning of the two, beating drums and chanting.
The Holy Sepulcher is shared by several Christian denominations according to a centuries-old arrangement known as the "status quo."
Each denomination jealously guards its share of the basilica, and fights over rights at the church have intensified in recent years, particularly between the Armenians and Greeks.
Father Pakrad, an Armenian priest, said the presence of the Greek priest during the Armenian observances violated the status quo. "Our priests entered the tomb. They kicked the Greek monk out of the Edicule," he said, referring to the tomb area.
Pakrad accused the Greek Orthodox Christians of trying to step on the Armenians' rights. "We are the weak ones, persecuted by them for many centuries."
The Greek Orthodox Patriarch in the Holy Land, Theofilos III, told The Associated Press that the Armenians are pushing to change the rules, challenging what he said was the dominance of the Greek church in the Holy Land.
"This behavior is criminal and unacceptable by all means," he said. "They wanted to trespass on the status quo concerning the order that regulates the services between the various communities."
The Church of the Nativity in nearby Bethlehem — where Jesus is said to have been born — also falls under the status quo arrangement. Last year, pre-Christmas cleaning in that church turned ugly when robed Greek Orthodox and Armenian priests went at each other with brooms and stones. |
That's the funniest thing I have read for years!!! 
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"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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"Serves em right for being so fanatical and sectarian" says he, uncharitably.
But it should be remembered that Christians have been persecuting each other ever since the Pauline Christians got the upper hand in the Roman Empire at the First Council of Nicaea in 325AD. After the Council other kinds of Christians were declared heretics and brutally persecuted. Clearly they had not learnt the lessons Jesus taught. Gnostics, Arians, Monophysites, Nestorians, Albigensians and eventually Protestants and even Catholics all suffered persecution over the succeeding centuries.
Small wonder that a teaching of love, truth and tolerance has been buried under so much garbage. |
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festival of snickers
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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thats weird
i bet they dont reconcile
mideast people are always fighting
maybe the sun drives them mad
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fish5133
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus said (referring to judgement day) "many shall come to me in that day and say Lord didnt we kick the ass of those Armenian priests and others will say didnt we give it to them Greekies, and I will say to them depart from me you workers of iniquity" Matthew 7 21 to 23 (modern paraphrase)
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"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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truthseeker john
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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actually it says,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
http://www.bible.cc/matthew/7-23.htm
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"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
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truthseeker john
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| xmasdale wrote: | "Serves em right for being so fanatical and sectarian" says he, uncharitably.
But it should be remembered that Christians have been persecuting each other ever since the Pauline Christians got the upper hand in the Roman Empire at the First Council of Nicaea in 325AD. After the Council other kinds of Christians were declared heretics and brutally persecuted. Clearly they had not learnt the lessons Jesus taught. Gnostics, Arians, Monophysites, Nestorians, Albigensians and eventually Protestants and even Catholics all suffered persecution over the succeeding centuries.
Small wonder that a teaching of love, truth and tolerance has been buried under so much garbage. |
They heal the brokenness of the daughter of my people superficially, Saying, 'Peace, peace,' But there is no peace.
They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
http://biblecc.com/jeremiah/8-11.htm
http://biblecc.com/jeremiah/6-14.htm
Genesis (rock band)
"oh, can't you see who's fools your are?"
Religion is like Bush saying "peace!"
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"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates |
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TonyGosling
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truthseeker john
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: |
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God, I hate to do this...
Here, do some study.
http://www.englishatheist.org/indexz31.shtml
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar1.html
http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/horus_vs_jesus_similaritie s.htm
http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/horus.htm
http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/comparsison_horus_jesus_ch art.htm
http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/parallels_chart.htm
http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/mithraism_astrotheology_si milarity_cx.htm
I do not deny there is a God but if people don't want to to look at the above links how can it be said they are a truthseeker?
The closing remarks on that last link says, | Quote: | The doctrines of Christianity are an outgrowth from the older faiths, in many ways similar, religions, with similar doctrines and principles. Only priests and preachers who love their salary more than the cause of truth, historically a very large class, or who are deplorable ignorant of history, have the effrontery to continue the pretense that Christianity was uniquely revealed. But truth has a way of emerging in spite of efforts to evade, ignore, or invalidate it.
You will have to decide who is mocking whom? |
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"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates |
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TonyGosling wrote: | | xmasdale wrote: | "Serves em right"
Christians have been persecuting each other ever since the Pauline Christians got the upper hand in the Roman Empire at the First Council of Nicaea in 325AD. |
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You have misquoted me. What I actually wrote was
"Serves em right for being so fanatical and sectarian says he, uncharitably." - clearly a jocular remark!
| TonyGosling wrote: |
No Noel. That's flippant tin-pot anti-faith spin.
Fake Christians have been persecuting Christians.
Don't perpetuate the derisory myth with which the media has spun the Northern Ireland troubles... amongst literally hundreds of other conflicts... including the UK/US/Israeli Special Forces Shia/Sunni divide and rule right now in Iraq which is killing something like a hundred innocent people of both faiths a day. |
It's very easy to say that those who claim to be Christian but are intolerant are by definition "fake Christians". But many Christian denominations have declared other "Christians" to be non-Christian. Unfortunately the Church has ben riddled with this kind of intolerance ever since the Pauline Trinitarians captured the official approval of the Roman Empire. I agree with you that that attitude was foreign to the teaching of Jesus, but unfortunately it has permeated the church.
Small wonder that millions therefore see mainstream Christianity with its claims of being the only valid way to God as an intolerant religion. With your postings of intolerant attitudes towards others, including your banning from this forum of people who disagree with you about the EU, your condemnation of the Archbishop of Canterbury for conducting a service for gay Christians, your false claims that Jesus and his immediate disciples preached against homosexuality and your general homophobic attitudes, you would appear to be well within the mainstream of intolerant Christianity, perpetuating the impression that Christians are intolerant.
All any sincere person can do is search for the truth and hope that they are finding it or at least part of it. One much overlooked saying of Jesus is:
"Judge not, that ye be not judge." This is often taken to mean that those who judge others harshly will be judged harshly in the afterlife, but I find that such people get judged harshly in this life.
Of course, I could be mistaken, but that is how I see it. |
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TonyGosling
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Can I be bothered to go through the tiresome misrepresentations you've made here Noel? No, how about just two?
Let's start with the suspension of Rory Winter not for "supporting the EU" as you attest but for caling me a fascist for canvassing opinion over whether people thought he was disrupting this thread.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=116708#116708
That wasn't clever of him.
Finally - I'm not homophobic.
That slur trips off your tongue so blithely. Yes I did make fun of Peter Tatchell 12 months ago then delete my post but that's not homophobia. Any more than poking fun at Israel is Anti-Semitic.
Are we no longer allowed to make light-hearted cracks at gay peoples' expense? That particular chap Tatchell seems only to attack regimes such as Russia Zimbabwe and Iran at odds with the official UK Foreign office policy - which in my book made him ripe for a dressing-down.
As Biblical teaching goes, hate the sin and not the sinner. In my life that means loving gay people just like anyone else, yes that means you too Noel despite your mean-spirited slurs.
No amount of thousands of words of your or anyone else's pleadings nullifies the sin of homosexuality/fornication/adultery to the vast majority of Christians, Muslims or Jews. These people take seriously the faith of Abraham, Issac, Moses and Jesus and they consider it a spin free zone, a line in the sand along with others of the ten commandments etc.. I've already explained to you why I believe Islam and Christianity believe homosexuality is sinful so retain my freedom of thought.
Anyway this issue has nothing to do with the "War on Terror".
I agree with much of what you say here, so whom have I judged in all this?
But the original point is that the various churches fail miserably to represent properly the loving will of Jesus Christ in the world today. On that we can fully agree even though they are imperfect they are all we have. The rrouble is the sort of spin you perpetrate is that which portrayed the Irish 'troubles' as a battle between Catholicism and Protestantism, it wasn't. It was between Republicans and Loyalists. That same charade is being played out as we speak in Iraq. It's called 'divide and rule and blame it on innocent faith communities.'
As Quakers and followers of George Fox I trust you and I both understand that the 'church' is not the institutions such as the CofE or the Jehovah's Witnesses but the living followers of the spirit of Jesus Christ on earth. That doesn't mean we're all perfect by the way 
Long may the body of Christ on earth continue to represent the spirit of Jesus Christ as distinct... and there is no way any fanatical interfaith type is going to dissolve world religions all into one false NWO 'official world religion' mush as I am sure they would love to do.
| xmasdale wrote: |
It's very easy to say that those who claim to be Christian but are intolerant are by definition "fake Christians". But many Christian denominations have declared other "Christians" to be non-Christian. Unfortunately the Church has been riddled with this kind of intolerance ever since the Pauline Trinitarians captured the official approval of the Roman Empire. I agree with you that that attitude was foreign to the teaching of Jesus, but unfortunately it has permeated the church.
Small wonder that millions therefore see mainstream Christianity with its claims of being the only valid way to God as an intolerant religion. With your postings of intolerant attitudes towards others, including your banning from this forum of people who disagree with you about the EU, your condemnation of the Archbishop of Canterbury for conducting a service for gay Christians, your false claims that Jesus and his immediate disciples preached against homosexuality and your general homophobic attitudes, you would appear to be well within the mainstream of intolerant Christianity, perpetuating the impression that Christians are intolerant.
All any sincere person can do is search for the truth and hope that they are finding it or at least part of it. One much overlooked saying of Jesus is:
"Judge not, that ye be not judge." This is often taken to mean that those who judge others harshly will be judged harshly in the afterlife, but I find that such people get judged harshly in this life.
Of course, I could be mistaken, but that is how I see it. |
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www.lawyerscommitteefor9-11inquiry.org
www.rethink911.org
www.patriotsquestion911.com
www.actorsandartistsfor911truth.org
www.mediafor911truth.org
www.pilotsfor911truth.org
www.mp911truth.org
www.ae911truth.org
www.rl911truth.org
www.stj911.org
www.v911t.org
www.thisweek.org.uk
www.abolishwar.org.uk
www.elementary.org.uk
www.radio4all.net/index.php/contributor/2149
http://utangente.free.fr/2003/media2003.pdf
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https://37.220.108.147/members/www.bilderberg.org/phpBB2/ |
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paul wright
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| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No amount of thousands of words of your or anyone else's pleadings nullifies the sin of homosexuality/fornication/adultery to the vast majority of Christians, Muslims or Jews |
Ouch! I've read many of the words of investigative Christians and the like with whom I can agree but disagree. But from our modern understanding, this from a person in control of our thoughts seems just a bit too much
"Sin"? Get shot of these concepts and understand where the real "sins" lie
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TonyGosling
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| TonyGosling wrote: | | Can I be bothered to go through the tiresome misrepresentations you've made here Noel? No, how about just two? |
Indeed! it would be wise for you not to answer the the points where you are on weakest ground. People then might not notice that you were avoiding certain issues.
You had threatened to ban him for expressing views you disagreed with before you provoked him into using the F word. Then when he eventually used it after displaying much tolerance of your intolerance, you finally banned him - a masterly piece of goading on your part to provoke an insult which would give you the excuse to do what you had already stated you wanted to do: suspend him.
Furthermore are we to take it now that canvassing the opinion of others who use this forum is, under your regime, a bannable offence? Explain please.
When I afterwards commented on that thread as to what you had done, you immediately removed my post without explanation.
| TonyGosling wrote: | | Finally - I'm not homophobic. |
Pull the other one, Tony.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
That slur trips off your tongue so blithely. Yes I did make fun of Peter Tatchell 12 months ago then delete my post but that's not homophobia any more than poking fun at Israel is Anti-Semitic.
Are we no longer allowed to make light-hearted cracks at gay peoples' expense? |
Try making fun of others in similar way on the grounds of their being Muslim, Jewish or Black and see how tolerant of your words people will be then.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
That particular chap Tatchell seems only to attack regimes such as Russia Zimbabwe and Iran at odds with the official UK Foreign office policy - which in my book made him ripe for a dressing-down.
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He "seems only" to attack such regimes because you "seem only" to read about his criticisms of human rights abuses in countries at odds with UK foreign policy, but that is the result of your selective reading, Tony. I have put up posts on this site about his demonstrating against human rights abuses in Saudia-Arabia during King Fahad's visit to London, ongoing abuses under the current Neocon-supported regime in Iraq and in Musharraf's Pakistan, but you appear to have missed those. That selective reading couldn't possibly be anything to do with homophobia, could it, because you assure us all that you are not homophobic?
Isn't that a bit like saying: "I'm not racist. I just enjoy making jokes at the expense of Blacks?"
| TonyGosling wrote: |
As Biblical teaching goes, hate the sin and not the sinner. In my life that means loving gay people just like anyone else, yes that means you too Noel despite your mean-spirited slurs.
No amount of thousands of words of your or anyone else's pleadings nullifies the sin of homosexuality/fornication/adultery to the vast majority of Christians, Muslims or Jews. These people take seriously the faith of Abraham, Issac, Moses and Jesus and they consider it a spin free zone, a line in the sand along with others of the ten commandments etc.. I've already explained to you why I believe Islam and Christianity believe homosexuality is sinful so retain my freedom of thought. |
You've explained to me that you believe Jesus and his closest disciples preached against homosexuality. I have explained to you that there is no Biblical record of their having done so and have asked you to quote chapter and verse from the Bible of where there is a report of them giving such teaching. You have failed to find any such report.
QED.
The big point that you ignore is the conflict which gay people face between living an honest life and living a life to please those who say it is sinful to be gay. Whether or not people are gay or straight is not something they choose, is it? Did you choose to be heterosexual? If you are like most heterosexuals you found in your teenage years that you were attracted to girls but not to boys. That's fine - such people have no problem about sexual orientation. But something between 5% and 10% of the population find they are not attracted to the opposite sex, but to their own sex.
In a society in which same sex relationships are acceptable that presents no problem, but in those which preach that such relationships are sinful and which punish gay and lesbian people with arrest, imprisonment, torture and in some countries death, gay people are faced with a big problem. Survival then demands that we deceive all those around us, hiding our true feelings away in the closet. Gay and lesbian people then enter into dishonest relationships with the opposite sex, frequently deceiving their spouses and resulting in disasterous marriages.
In my teenage years it was illegal to be gay in Britain. I had to hide in the closet and to deceive those around me. Fortunately the efforts of gay rights campaigners brought about a modest change in the law (though people can still legally be sacked for being gay).
When Gay Liberation came along in 1971 I joined the small group of people in England who "came out" openly declared we were gay and stood ready to take the consequences. The movement spread and had a wonderfully beneficial effect on the lives of gay people. For the first time we began to be able to live without fear and without deceiving those around us.
Now those, such as yourself Tony, who preach that it is sinful to be gay, should consider too whether it is sinful to live dishonest lives deceiving all around one.
A little humility and a little understanding that not everyone is made the same way as you are would be most welcome.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
Anyway this issue has nothing to do with the "War on Terror". |
It does if you use this forum on the War on Terror to make cheap offensive jibes about gay people who risk life and limb to protest against human rights abuses.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
I agree with much of what you say here, so whom have I judged in all this? |
You have judged your own attitudes and actions to be fine and those of others, including Peter Tatchell, Rory Winter and myself, to be out of order and worthy of your contempt.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
But the original point is that the various churches fail miserably to represent properly the loving will of Jesus Christ in the world today. On that we can fully agree even though they are imperfect they are all we have. The rrouble is the sort of spin you perpetrate is that which portrayed the Irish 'troubles' as a battle between Catholicism and Protestantism, it wasn't. It was between Republicans and Loyalists. That same charade is being played out as we speak in Iraq. It's called 'divide and rule and blame it on innocent faith communities.' |
I am well aware of media misrepresentation of what lies behind the troubles in the North of Ireland.
| TonyGosling wrote: |
As Quakers and followers of George Fox I trust you and I both understand that the 'church' is not the institutions such as the CofE or the Jehovah's Witnesses but the living followers of the spirit of Jesus Christ on earth. That doesn't mean we're all perfect by the way
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Well the confusing thing about Quakerism is that it is in that sense a "broad church". It includes those who call themselves "Christian" such as yourself and those who call themselves "Universalist" such as myself. Sometimes I call myself Christian in the Quaker sense of believing that Jesus's life and teachings were exemplary and seeking to follow his example. But I am certainly not "Christian" if that means following Pauline Trinitarian doctrines such as the Nicene Creed and Vicarious Atonement. And I certainly don't believe, as you appear to, that the Bible is the infallible Word of God which must be accepted in its entirety without question. That is why it is a mystery to me why you have joined the Quakers. Your attitudes would appear to be out of kilter with Quaker ones, but that's a matter for you and your conscience. It's not for me to judge. |
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truthseeker john
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Did you look at those links Tony?
Start with this one if you like
http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/comparsison_horus_jesus_ch art.htm
A point I'm making is that there's little that's original or unique about Christianity and like all religions, is designed to control the way people think. Through religious doctrines religion divides people into 'us and them' and that is one way they control and manipulate people. If you dare to look further, religion was set up by so-called illuminati from thousands of years ago and it is and always has been, a deception which hides the truth about where we came from and our place in the universe.
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"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates |
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acrobat74
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truthseeker john
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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The Holy books do have some good things but unfortunately, also have much that is wrong and in many cases just plain evil. Look into the Old Testament and we see ‘God’ saying ‘kill them all!’ – ‘don’t show any mercy for man, woman or child, or domestic animal!’ ‘don’t let anything that has breath, live!’ (paraphrased) and in the Bible Yahweh has apparently said he’s a “person of war”!
A person of war? I remember Bush saying something like that.. "I sit here in the Oval office, with war on my mind" but he's doing war for peace of course! The Bible says, "Peace, peace, when there is no peace" and it can be seen what fools people are and they wonder why there is so much violence.
There are all the religious doctrines many of them in contradiction to each other and a person is lead into doublethink (which is evidence of brainwashing) in order to believe them by 'faith'. Just one simple example: we are told that God is the same today as yesterday and that Jesus is (or represents) God, yet unlike YHWH Jesus says we should love not only our friends but also our enemies. That certainly sounds like a contradiction to me but people can’t understand much when they are under a religious spell.
I could go on and on and I know much about religion because I have studied the Bible for at least 40 years and was very religious myself 25 years ago. Religion with its many doctrines is for those who don't know without being told and it is used to control people’s minds, sometimes for good, but often for evil and if religion works for good, the world would not be in the state it is now. How many more millennia will it take before the penny drops? Perhaps none, because at this rate there may not be a world in a thousand years from now.
1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
Well, at least Paul said something right there and it’s about time religious people grew up spiritually and the main thing that is preventing people to grow that way is religion.
_________________
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates |
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: |
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Good links, Acrobat  |
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acrobat74
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| truthseeker john wrote: |
1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
Well, at least Paul said something right there and it’s about time religious people grew up spiritually and the main thing that is preventing people to grow that way is religion. |
Given your interpretation of this quote, I take it that you think that Paul wants us to put 'childish ways' behind us.
Imho Paul wants to say the exact opposite: that we should hold on to our childish innocence, that we should never lose the perspective of the child.
This is one of the most insightful messages of Christian philosophy.
xmasdale, glad you liked 'em, I don't always agree with Carlin's nihilism but most times I find him very, very amusing.
_________________
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
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Location: South London
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| truthseeker john wrote: | | The Holy books do have some good things but unfortunately, also have much that is wrong and in many cases just plain evil. Look into the Old Testament and we see ‘God’ saying ‘kill them all!’ – ‘don’t show any mercy for man, woman or child, or domestic animal!’ ‘don’t let anything that has breath, live!’ (paraphrased) and in the Bible Yahweh has apparently said he’s a “person of war”! |
Yes indeed and what was written in the Book of Samuel about how God allegedly told the Israelites to commit genocide on the Amalekites is a particularly nasty example of this.
"1 Samuel 15:3 (New International Version)
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. "
But the prophet Samuel admonished King Saul for not killing all of the Amalekites and all their livestock, saying that God was now displeased with him. After this Saul was allegedly rejected by God who then turned towards making David king of Israel and a civil war was then fought between the supporters of Saul and the supporters of David, which the David faction won.
I believe in reading scripture with discernment and I think the probablility is that the account in Samuel was written by the supporters of David in an attempt to justify David's legitimacy as king. It's always the victors in power struggles who write the history books.
But if you take Tony's attitude of, "I will not question the sacred Word of our Heavanly Father," you do I believe get led into Orwellian doublethink. Tony appears to take literally everything written in the Bible as a direct message from God. Hence he uses St Paul's
"1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God,"
to justify his homophobia. But when I have asked him if he also thinks that St Paul's support of the institution of slavery, particularly underlined by the Epistle to Philemon, and his support for women having an inferior status to men, are ordained by God, Tony gives no answer.
Indeed doublethink has no logical justification.
I have asked him why, if he believes in questioning modern writings to discern whether they are based on evidence, he does not take the same attitude to the Bible. The reply is:
"I will not question the sacred Word of our Heavanly Father,"
With this kind of naive Biblical literalism there is no arguing.
Many in the West, faced with these kinds of contradictions among many within the church, have turned to Eastern religions. But I have found an attitude of discernment, tolerance, love and understanding within the Society of Friends (Quakers), which draw on the Western mystical traditions.
A popular Quaker saying is in an early epistle from the elders at Balby (Yorkshire) :
"Dearly beloved Friends, these things we do not lay upon you as a rule or form to walk by, but that all, with the measure of light which is pure and holy, may be guided; and so in the light walking and abiding, these may be fulfilled in the Spirit, not from the letter, for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. "
And it echoes words of St Paul:
"2 Corinthians 3:6 (King James Version)
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
Sadly Tony appears to rely on the letter of what is written and has not grasped what it means to interpret something in the spirit of the message.
And in my humble opinion he continues in adulthood to talk like a child, think like a child and reason like a child. God willing, he will one day put away childish things, but that will be hard for him to do if he can't first put away his infernal pride and belief that he has it right, while others have got it wrong.
(I'm sorry if that is hurtful, Tony, but to be an effective campaigner you really do need to consider how you will overcome your religious naivety).
| truthseeker john wrote: |
1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
Well, at least Paul said something right there and it’s about time religious people grew up spiritually and the main thing that is preventing people to grow that way is religion. |
I would advocate Quakers as a good place in which to grow up spiritually and Tony has told me that he has recently joined them, though his Biblical literalism appears very different from the normal Quaker approach to spirituality.
Noel |
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| acrobat74 wrote: | | truthseeker john wrote: |
1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
Well, at least Paul said something right there and it’s about time religious people grew up spiritually and the main thing that is preventing people to grow that way is religion. |
Given your interpretation of this quote, I take it that you think that Paul wants us to put 'childish ways' behind us.
Imho Paul wants to say the exact opposite: that we should hold on to our childish innocence, that we should never lose the perspective of the child.
This is one of the most insightful messages of Christian philosophy.
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Oh please, Acrobat, don't give Tony further justification for clinging to his naive Biblical literalism.
But there is a paradox here. If the childish ways refer to naivety, they should go; if they refer to a pride which prevents us from trusting the spirit (intuition) that should go too; if they refer to trust in guidance of the spirit, that should be embraced.
| acrobat74 wrote: | | xmasdale, glad you liked 'em, I don't always agree with Carlin's nihilism but most times I find him very, very amusing. |
I hadn't watched the Carlin link but had read the others when I wrote that. Certainly he is amusing and we do need challenges to naive Biblical literalism, though I don't really go along with his all-religion-is-cooked-up-by-confidence-tricksters-in-order-to-control -us approach. I believe that is a half-truth and that it would be more accurate to say that the original insights of of the prophets and visionaries are often genuine, but they get distorted by priests and rulers in an attempt to control us - often very successfully. The trick in reading scripture, I think, is to be able to discern the difference between the insights of the seers and the controlling mechanisms of the authorities.
Just two examples: Moses and the Burning Bush and Jacob's Ladder.
The exoteric story for consumption by the naive (inserted by the authorities/priesthood?) is that the voice of God spoke to Moses out of a bush, which appeared to be burning but was not consumed, and told him to return to Egypt and lead the Children of Israel out of that land. But when he asks the name of the God speaking to him the answer is "I AM". I find that to be the first clue in the Bible that God is to be found at the very centre of our being, our very sense of being. Very existential, isn't it? Compatible too with Jesus's
"The kingdom of Heaven is within you"
and with the Quaker First Advice:
"Take heed, dear Friends, to the promptings of Love and Truth in your hearts. Trust them as the leadings of God whose light shows us our darkness and leads us to new life."
In other words Moses had an insightful experience in the desert which came from within, as such experiences always do, in which he felt a calling to lead his people out of Egypt.
Reading the psychiatrist Carl Gustav Jung, who inidentally in his last years used to attend the Quaker Meeting in Zurich, gave me an insight into the Jacob's ladder story. It is the first dream in the Bible and, according to Jung, can be interpreted as being about the very essence of dreaming itself. The ladder Jacob dreamed about reached from earth to heaven. Angels were ascending and descending it. Angels in the Bible are messengers of God. In other words dreams are a means of communicationg with God/the Universal Spirit/Atmen/Brahman/I AM/the Higher Self/the very centre of our being - communication between heaven and earth.
These stories are of course myths and myths are very important to our culture. One tells us that spiritual truth can be found within us; the other that spiritual truth can be found in our dreams (which of course occur within us during sleep). Myths contain spiritual truths but but if you try looking for literal historic truth in them you will be disappointed.
Oops! I a rabbiting on aren't I? Sorry! So that's my Sunday morning sermon
Blessings! |
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acrobat74
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 836
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| xmasdale wrote: | | acrobat74 wrote: | | truthseeker john wrote: |
1 Cor 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
Well, at least Paul said something right there and it’s about time religious people grew up spiritually and the main thing that is preventing people to grow that way is religion. |
Given your interpretation of this quote, I take it that you think that Paul wants us to put 'childish ways' behind us.
Imho Paul wants to say the exact opposite: that we should hold on to our childish innocence, that we should never lose the perspective of the child.
This is one of the most insightful messages of Christian philosophy.
|
Oh please, Acrobat, don't give Tony further justification for clinging to his naive Biblical literalism.
But there is a paradox here. If the childish ways refer to naivety, they should go; if they refer to a pride which prevents us from trusting the spirit (intuition) that should go too; if they refer to trust in guidance of the spirit, that should be embraced. |
I'm most definitely not in agreement with Tony on this one.
I don't think I'd be able to express the essence of this quote, it's more felt than understood. 'Trust in guidance of the spirit' sounds like it's in the right direction.
| xmasdale wrote: | | acrobat74 wrote: | | xmasdale, glad you liked 'em, I don't always agree with Carlin's nihilism but most times I find him very, very amusing. |
I hadn't watched the Carlin link but had read the others when I wrote that. Certainly he is amusing and we do need challenges to naive Biblical literalism, though I don't really go along with his all-religion-is-cooked-up-by-confidence-tricksters-in-order-to-control -us approach. I believe that is a half-truth and that it would be more accurate to say that the original insights of of the prophets and visionaries are often genuine, but they get distorted by priests and rulers in an attempt to control us - often very successfully. The trick in reading scripture, I think, is to be able to discern the difference between the insights of the seers and the controlling mechanisms of the authorities.
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Nicely stated. I'd agree that Carlin is often exaggerating to make a point.
_________________
Summary of 9/11 scepticism: http://tinyurl.com/27ngaw6 and www.911summary.com
Off the TV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4szU19bQVE
Those who do not think that employment is systemic slavery are either blind or employed. (Nassim Taleb)
www.moneyasdebt.net
http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/ |
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