Ex T.A. Barrister Shot Dead by Police in Chelsea

[TonyGosling]

......One resident, whose garden backs on to the gunman's house, said her home had been sprayed with shots.
A child's bedroom was also hit. A trained negotiator was sent to the scene to try to reason with the gunman.
At just after 9pm officers again returned fire after being shot at from the building. Half an hour later they again came under attack.
Police threw stun grenades into the flat at around 9.35pm. Shortly after marksmen were involved in a third and final exchange of shots during which the barrister was fatally injured........

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23482677-details/First+pict ure:+The+barrister+gunman+shot+dead+by+police+after+five-hour+Kings+Ro ad+siege/article.do

[telecasterisation]

Interesting that 'Gestapo' doesn't appear at all?

[Mark Gobell]

Jean Charles de Menezes was murdered 1019 days previously.

[karlos]

I dont think there is any conspiracy here.
He had a gun licence which 99% of people dont have.
He had 4 guns.
And after drinking on a warm day maybe snorting a bit of charlie too he went ape.

He could have killed people and in this case more so that any other they were probably justified in taking him down.
To compare him with Jean Charles de Menezes an innocent man who was unarmed and shot seven times in the head AFTER being subdued is wrong.

[Busker]

One thing to check would be the cases he was handling at the time, but I tend to agree with karlos. Sunshine, alcohol and guns are a very dangerous mix.

[eogz]

I suppose in this age of doubt and skepticism from us all it could be easy to assume everything is a conspiracy theory or an assassination of some kind. I suppose if he was a chav hoodie shot in some inner city area we wouldn't blink an eye lid, or even worry about it.

Some things happen that are unfortunate to some very unfortunate and disturbed people.

Some unfortunate things happen to very stable and happy people too.

Some terrible thing happen because a person is in the wrong place at the wrong tme and knows just a little too much.

[TonyGosling]

Did they have to kill my son, asks gunman barrister's father as it's revealed he was shot up to SEVEN times by police
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_artic le_id=564401

Couldn't this guy have been shot with a stun dart like this?



http://blog.empas.com/ys0316/read.html?a=26003294&c=1717090

Guns are available which fire darts which inject a combination of two drugs - xylazine and ketamine.

In less than 10 minutes he'd have been asleep on the floor.

We do that to elephants, tigers and other wild animals so why did they have to kill him?

If they forgot to bring the stun dart gun at the very least shoot his leg?

Just another victim of Sir Ian Blair's psycopathic fascist Met.

No doubt Common Purpose medal winner Cressida Dick was Peter Power's (who devised the system) Gold Commander in charge of the operation.

[paul wright]

Quite right to raise suspicions Tony.The guy's a barrister and it would be interesting to know what cases he's been involved with.
There is that apparent execution element underlying this

[conspiracy analyst]

In one paper they said he had been to Iraq as part of the Territorials so he may have been sufferring PTSD?

In another he was arguing with his wife before going ape.

Today his wife said they weren't arguing.

This story will change so many times as to what happened and why that we will never actually know what actually happened. But it does already sound fishy...

It could be an engineered event to show that there are too many guns in London and Boris will sort it out? Coincidence of timing is too close too call.

Here is one of the 134 comments on the Daily Mail page...

[telecasterisation]

[Busker]

I am stunned to find myself in agreement with telecasterisation.

[telecasterisation]

I should have also added that 'hit seven times', may be highly misleading.

The reports say he had three lethal wounds, so four were 'superficial' and non-lethal (in extremities?). He could have been shot many times if the wounds were not immediately fatal - but he apparently still kept firing back. Is it really as simple as just 'shoot him in leg', given his location?

You enter a room with someone firing a shotgun at you - can we honestly say that it is as easy as just aiming at a leg, pulling a trigger and then hoping that is enough to end the exchange?

I discussed this at work with those who carry firearms and although they are trained to respond to such incidents - there was only one who had come up against what he thought was a real gun (that proved to be a replica).

It is often easy to forget that the police will turn up 'cold' to an event like this, whilst the person they are up against may be swirled away in a mist of drugs/alcohol/rage. Did he keep shooting before succumbing to fatal wounds?

Just because you go on regular courses, nothing prepares you for the real thing. What would 'you' do if someone was firing a shotgun at you and you were armed?

[TonyGosling]

[telecasterisation]

The Met. PR dept. are proven psychopaths?

Jenny Newlands who sits next to the window and has been there for nearly 20 years, has a Paul O'Grady calendar, so I guess you are right.

[TonyGosling]

[Stefan]

The story did indeed change very fast:

[fish5133]

If as was stated he had a shotgun how quickly can it be reloaded after firing it. Can you get shotguns that have more than a couple of rounds in them at a time?
It does seem like the dark ages given all the technology around to day that the only answer is to pump several lumps of lead into them and ask questions later. With Tony on this one why dont they use some form of tranquiliser dart, tazer etc

[TonyGosling]

this headline "Police kill barrister in King's Road shoot-out" is just possibly because he was calling out that he was ex-army and the Standard may have jumped to conclusions. Having said that its unlikely they would have sent that front page to press without initial checks with reporters on the ground being made.

BTW the cops look like a bunch of terrorists to me - did anyone report them???

Seems our Barrister friend was indeed ex army - ex officer in this regiment according to the Telegraph. Certainly Territorial Army at the least.

Wonder if he toed the Royal line???

http://www.hac.org.uk/

[telecasterisation]

The question of why a tranquilizer dart wasn’t used to subdue such an individual seems to have perplexed many. It isn’t a case of not paying attention, it is a case of thinking this through.

Unlike the ‘elephants, tigers and other wild animals’ who present a backside for the vet’s dart as it has no clue what’s coming, the first problem you face is accessibility to a soft fleshy area. It is unlikely that the shooter will go out onto the balcony, he will be dodging backwards/forwards behind curtains, looking through windows – you only have an upper body shot – usually just the head which is a dart no-no area for obvious reasons.

So to compare animals in the wild, even in zoos, to some herbert holed up in a flat is just ridiculous.

In the wild, you'd have a clear shot;



Yet after moving into his sumptuous Chelsea apartment;



So how exactly do you administer the dart when you have no viable target? You also have a very limited range with such ‘weapons’ – usually just 50m or so. A great way to take an eye out and get your police marksman shot too by putting him in the shotgun’s range.

Then you have the problem of modern toughened glass – a dart will not go through double glazing – every window would have to be shot out first and then you hope your antagonist presents a suitable bodypart if you can get in range.

So you break in the front door;

The shooter certainly is unlikely to just stand and wait to get shot, plus he is shooting at you – but you get lucky and a dart goes in – then you have;

[TonyGosling]

So he has to die because you have wrongly assumed he has a hostage? What kind of reasoning is that?
Met. PR reasoning.

Otherwise just let him be. He wasn't firing at people so just evacuate and wait, negotiate.

Life is cheap in the Met's eyes. The whole business is driven by a macho terror fear factor which delights in killing and leaves the PR department to do the rest.

[Tim for Zeitgeist]

First of all I am sorry for the loss to his girlfriend especially because she now has an internal mark the she will never be able to forget. What a tragedy.
I also want to say for his family what a loss.
It is those who are left behind that suffer the loss. In theory at least those who die, especially after what he must have suffered in Iraq, are in far better place than the world was for them before death.
I have counseled ex service personnel and I can tell you PTSD is a bitch!
One guy I knew went off and started running saying they were after him and and he could hear the guns going off. Poor man was the last survivor of his platoon. He had to play dead while the VC felt if he was alive.
One of the nicest gentlest people I ever met otherwise. Lost his scholarship because of it.
I would be very interested in someone finding out what did he go through in Iraq? Then you can make a better determination as to what he was seeing on the day he was shot!

[xmasdale]

[xmasdale]

The story changing in the Evening Standard may be very significant. Unforunately I can't read the text on the Standard versions Stefan has put up, nor on another version of the same which someone has sent me.

It would be interesting to see whether between the two versions there is evidence of government D-notice censorship. Why change the headline from Iraq Veteran to Top Barrister? Was someone trying to cover up the Iraqi and military connections? What information might a military lawyer have about operations in Iraq which, if he was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder, he might have mde public?

Has anyone got readable text of the two Evening Standard articles?

[telecasterisation]

I have said a number of times that all police services are only staffed by people - not super-moral, bias-free, unimpeachable human beings. What is also very evident, is that having been a serving regular, plus I currently hold a full-time civilian enforcement role, I have considerable experience of day-to-day policing that allows me to see things from the very real perspective of 'being there'. I accept that few here can relate to that on any level.

A large number of working police officers are very genuine and public-minded. There are however differences between the job as I knew it when I joined back in the seventies and differences between constabularies.

Regards the shot barrister, I am not saying he should have been shot, nor justifying that he was, neither that there was a hostage to take into account, it was generic. Merely, you cannot allow a ten minute window after sticking a shooter with a thick two inch spike shot at speed into soft flesh. You cannot accurately say how they will react, he isn't a warthog with toothache in a zoo darted through the bars that will wander around harmlessly under it keels over.

Simply put, the Eric Bristow approach to neutralising is a very crude method of ending such an incident.

[TonyGosling]

I'm not blaming the individual coppers but the top brass who, it seems, haven't even heard of a stun dart gun. They are the psycopaths for setting up this overly macho system.
As you know if you know these people they are told 'don't worry if you kill someone we'll watch your *ss' It's the people who say things like that, their superiors, who are using the marksmen as psyops pawns in an attempt to frighten the population.
At least that's how I see it and, again, no reason to kill Mark Saunders who was executed by the same top cops who got away with executing Jean Charles De Menezes with impunity.

Executing drunk members of the public with impunity, what has happened to this country? Or was it always so???

see also this films about murder & more police impunity
http://www.injusticefilm.co.uk/

Link

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5401348798037795327
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQqN4sD5XgE

[xmasdale]

Evening Standard Early Edition

POLICE KILL IRAQ VETERAN
Benedict Moor-Bridger and Justin Daventport, Evening Standard (First Edition), 07.05.2008

A MAN shot dead by police after a five-hour siege in Chelsea was an ex-soldier, it was revealed today.
Officers in body armour used stun grenades to storm a £2.2million flat in Markham Square, which is just off the King’s Road. The gunman, 32, who is understood to have served in Iraq, began firing from a window with a shotgun at about 5pm yesterday.
He was said to have been drinking heavily after an argument with his girl-friend or ex-partner who fled the property in tears moments earlier. "He just kept shooting, cool as a cucumber," said one neighbour.
Shoppers and commuters ran for cover and neighbours in one of London’s wealthiest areas were told to shut themselves in their bathrooms as Met firearms teams surrounded the Georgian terrace. Officers exchanged fire with him at least three times during the stand-off before he was hit.
The man was found injured inside the ground-floor flat. He was carried out of the building on a stretcher and given emergency treatment in the street but died at the scene. The fatal shooting is the first carried out by officers from the Met's specialist firearms squad 0019 since members of the unit killed Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell Tube station in 2005.
The Independent Police Com-plaints Commission today launched an investigation into the incident.
They confirmed that investiga-tors had found a legally held firearm, a shotgun, at the scene.
Investigators are examining reports that the man was suffer-ing from post-traumatic stress disorder.
A woman, who asked not to be named, said a domestic dispute appeared to be the catalyst for the incident. She said: "A woman raninto a nearby store with a gentleman. She was panicked and crying and it said that it was her ex partner or boyfriend. It seems an argument had started and got out of hand."
One neighbour said a couple had bought the flat in September last year for £2.2 million.
As the siege went on armed offi-cers sealed off the busy street.
A bus driver told how his double-decker was stopped by police and he and passengers ordered to take cover.
Witnesses described how offi-cers then returned fire, as police snipers took up positions on rooftops.
One resident, whose garden backs on to the gunman's house, said her home had been sprayed with shots. A child's bedroom was also hit. A trained negotiator was sent to the scene to fry to reason with the gunman.
At just after 9pm officers again returned fire after being shot at from the building. Half an hour later they again came under attack.
Police threw stun grenades into the flat at around 9.35pm. Shortly after marksmen were involved in a third and final exchange of shots during which the gunman was fatally injured.
A short while later Scotland Yard confirmed the gunman had been killed. A spokesman said: "Following the incident in Markham Square a man has been pronounced dead."
"This is now a matter for the Independent Police Complaints Commission."




FIVE HOURS OF FEAR AND SHOOTINGS IN CHELSEA
Benedict Moore Bridger and Robert Mendick, Evening Standard (First Edition), 07.05.2008

SHOPPERS in the King’s Road ran for their lives while wealthy residents barricaded themselves into their houses during the gun battle which raged in the heart of Chelsea last night.
Shoot-outs – more like the Wild West than west London – are not supposed to happen in leafy squares 50 feet from the King’s Road.
Today, eyewitnesses spoke of their terror after the five-hour siege which left the gunman dead and locals still trying to come to terms with the extraordinary events on one of Britain’s most expensive streets.
It began at about 4.50pm with reports of a man firing at random into surrounding houses and gardens from his flat in Markham Square, where five-storey Georgian houses can fetch £10 million. The siege lasted for five more hours, with sporadic bursts of gunfire which culminated in armed police storming the flat at number 46 Markham Square, lobbing in stun grenades which lit up the night sky.
After it was all over, police brought out the semi-naked armed man on to the pavement as the medical crew try to resuscitate him. But the gunman, a military man who was said to be very drunk and had been arguing with his girlfriend before the incident, was dead.
One resident, whose garden backs onto the gunman’s house, told how her home had been sprayed with bullets during the attack.
The woman, who did not want to be named, said: "There was a man actually opposite my house shooting into my house, into my daughter’s bedroom. We thought they were firecrackers. He was at the window with a shotgun.
"He just kept shooting, cool as a cucumber. He even stopped to reload."
The woman told how the gunman, described as white and in his early thirties, opened fire on her and police after she initially heard three shots fired.
She said? "Police ran into my house and I warned them not to stand too close to the window, but an armed officer went straight to the broken window and the gunman fired at him.
"You could see the guy directly across the way, aiming. The policeman crouched down and returned fire, but I don’t think he hit him."
Jenny Morley, who lives in Markham Square opposite the house, was trapped inside her home as the drama unfolded.
She said: "I had just come back from work when I heard shouting outside. I looked out of the kitchen window and saw three policemen in bulletproof vests and rifles running toward the house with their guns pointing upwards.
"Then I heard four or five gunshots and more shouting. I was told to stay at the back of the house for safety. I’m just grateful that my children were not at home."
Jill Eresen, who owns Harvest boutique clothing shop which backs on to the square, also heard the shots.
She said: "There was this noise and I couldn’t work out what it was. Then within about 10 minutes I heard a volley of shots – I think that was as the police arrived. They told us to stay in the shop, then armed police came in and said they needed to use our shop as a platform because it had the best view of the gardens. It was very scary."
Shopper Daniela Bravin, 17, said she heard six shots being fired as armed police swarmed into the area.
"The police told us to run. They had shields and were going into the square. It was terrifying."
The driver of a No 11 double decker also told how he and his 25 passengers ran for their lives as armed police raced to the scene.
Charles Gasa. 32, said: "1 was driving along King's Road just coming up to the Abbey bank on the corner of Markham Square. I could see a couple of normal police cars and then suddenly dozens more police cars started streaming into the area, Armed officers rushed out of the cars wearing bullet-proof` vests and then sec-onds later I heard some gunshots.
"At first I though someone had raided the bank. Ijust ran for my life and my passengers all did the same. Everyone was completely terrified."


Eyewitnesses reported seeing the sky light up at about 9.30pm with green flashes at the same time as the explosions and others heard glass breaking as police threw stun grenades inside. A resident of the area, where near-neigh-bours include footballers and stars such as Liz Hurley and Mick Jagger, as well as Prince William's girlfriend Kate Middleton, said: "We're all absolutely petrified. We can't believe this has happened in a place like this."
During the siege, anxious residents watched the action unfold from behind the cordon —including one man whose wife and children were trapped in their home neighbouring the flat that the gunman was in. They were told to lock themselves in the lavatory for safety The woman, who was not named, said: "It’s just verry strange. I think it's going to hit me tomorrow. I don't know why someone was shooting at my house. I have no idea who he is, I've never seen him in my life.'
A waiter in Benihana restaurant said he and around 15 members of staff were stranded in the building.
He added: "I heard gun shots when I was out-side, it was scary"
Shop manager Shan Nimalakumar, 36, said he was locked inside the health store Holland & Barrett with one customer and two members of staff.
He said: "The police won't let us anywhere near. We are now stuck in the shop. They said ‘stay in the shop, lock the door and go to the back’."
Markham Square is famous among James Bond experts as the possible location of 007's London flat.
They suggest that explains why the pseudonym Robert Markham was chosen upon Ian Fleming's death to continue the spy series. Only one novel was written under the pseudonym Robert Markham however — and that was by Kingsley Amis.

HOW THE SIEGE IN MARKHAM SQUARE UNFOLDED

4.50pm: Residents in Markham Square and King’s Road hear shots and call police.
5.00pm: Armed officers arrive at Markham Square and, hidden behind shields, approach house. Officers close King’s Road, forcing shop staff and customers to lock themselves inside.
5.10pm: Gunman fires shots at police who shoot back. No one is injured. Police negotiator is called in but gunman makes no demands. Nearby properties are evacuated.
5.30pm: Shoppers says she saw woman, claiming to be ex-girlfriend of the gunman, crying and saying she had argued with him before shooting.
9.01pm: Gunman shoots at police. Officers return fire.
9:32pm: Gunman opens fire on officers for third and final time and they fire back. Witnesses report sky lit up with green flashes, most likely stun grenades. Officers enter house.
9:40pm: Paramedics push stretcher towards house. Sources later reveal gunman has died. Ambulance later leaves area with body.
9:56pm: Police refer incident to Independent Police Complaints Commission.

[xmasdale]

EVENING STANDARD (LATER EDITION)

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23482847-details/Top+ba rrister+shot+dead+in+Chelsea+siege/article.do


Top barrister shot dead in Chelsea siege
Kiran Randhawa and Justin Davenport, Evening Standard (Second Edition), 07.05.08

The gunman shot dead by police in the Chelsea siege was a high-flying barrister, it was revealed this afternoon.
Mark Saunders, 32, began firing at neighbours from the first-floor window of his £2.2 million flat in Markham Square, just off the King's Road, yesterday afternoon - sparking a five-hour stand-off.
It is understood he had been drinking heavily after an argument with his wife, 40-year-old Elizabeth Clarke, also a top divorce lawyer with the same chambers where they earned between £300,000 and £500,000 a year each. Mr Saunders is said to have chatted happily to a security guard as he left his office in the Temple at lunchtime.
Shortly before 5pm Mr Saunders, who had served with the Territorial Army, opened fire with a shotgun. Shoppers ran for cover and neighbours in one of London's wealthiest areas were told to shut themselves in their bathrooms as police snipers exchanged fire with him.

[xmasdale]

The interesting point about the later edition of the story in the Standard is that there is now no mention of his being an Iraq war veteran, merely a former territorial army officer.

So does that mean that after the first edition had been published the government issued a D-notice censoring the gunman's past military service in Iraq?

Of course the censorship of his past service in Iraq could be due to something as simple as an attempt to cover up the fact that Iraq veterans tend to suffer from Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. The government are known to be in denial over Gulf War Syndrome; admission that it exists would be extremely costly for them.

[Mark Gobell]

The Honourable Artillery Company just happens to be the place where:

[TonyGosling]

My God!!!
Some coincidence Mark, if it is a coincidence.



Seems Paul may have been right - what had this chap been talking about on the phone???

What did he know?
Who was he giving legal advice to?


And who polices the police?