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ian neal
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 Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:07 am Post subject: Dear critics |
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Clearly we live in parallel universes
In your universe there is nothing even vaguely fishy about 9/11 and 'troofers' are a bunch of deluded paranoids
In my universe the truth about 9/11 has self evidently been covered up and you are colluding in this cover-up.
Can I ask whether any of the conspiracies detailed in these films make you question whether you may be wrong about 9/11? Which if any do you find convincing?
http://tag.facternet.com/amt/ |
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pepik
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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You just showed me over 100 hours of video - I hope you weren't expecting me to watch all of it and get back to you.
Some I have seen, some I haven't. All look like paranoia or left wing propaganda.
I'm just not going to spend my time watching films about zionist control of America, cold fusion and the North American Union, or anything by odious hatemongers like John Pilger. Life's too short.
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"could it be that ww2 and the extermination of jewish people was planned as a way of creating a race of people who it would be difficult to blame for anything, a cover race for the illuminati?" - a quote NOT from the 'controversial theories' section. |
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Stefan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| pepik wrote: | | odious hatemongers like John Pilger |
ROTFLMAO
I geuss we just got a pretty strong indication of Pepik's politics...
How would you class Adolf Hitler? Firm but fair I'm guessing...
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Dogsmilk
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| Stefan wrote: | | pepik wrote: | | odious hatemongers like John Pilger |
ROTFLMAO
I geuss we just got a pretty strong indication of Pepik's politics...
How would you class Adolf Hitler? Firm but fair I'm guessing... |
LOL
Pray tell us pepik, exactly how does John Pilger qualify as an "odious hatemonger"?
Nice link Mr Neal btw.
I totally recommend people watch the yes men. Go on Pepik - give it a go. |
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A Sharp Major
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 237
Location: In the van with the blacked out windows, parked outside your home.
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Ian Neal says of critics
| Quote: | | In your universe there is nothing even vaguely fishy about 9/11 and 'troofers' are a bunch of deluded paranoids |
Truther 'thinking' regarding the earthquake in China. Posted last night.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=117888#117888&sid=6f c89ede3250d1b8293dfc41c7d87052
| Quote: | Man-made or natural, I should imagine. Hard to judge unless radar anomalies or some such become available and then it's not too sure
The black technology and the upsurge in vibrational frequencies chase each other up a tree. So I believe |
It isn't 911 but the same minds are at work. Paul Wright isn't alone. I expect one leading 'truther' will see a six pointed star in the carnage and debris created by the earthquake.
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pepik
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Looks like criticism of John Pilger gets more of a response than films about zionist control of America.
Oh well, 911 truth was never going anywhere anyway.
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"could it be that ww2 and the extermination of jewish people was planned as a way of creating a race of people who it would be difficult to blame for anything, a cover race for the illuminati?" - a quote NOT from the 'controversial theories' section. |
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Dogsmilk
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Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| pepik wrote: | Looks like criticism of John Pilger gets more of a response than films about zionist control of America.
Oh well, 911 truth was never going anywhere anyway. |
Are we to take it you have no rational basis for your comment then? |
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Alex_V
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Dear critics |
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Well let's be clear - John Pilger is not a truther. Neither is Greg Palast, or Rob Newman, or Mark Curtis. They are all a million miles from being truthers. You can have James Whale as a truther if you like - REAL journalists are not truthers.
Nobody with credibility in the real world is a truther in my opinion - your star turns are David Ray Griffin or Richard Gage or Steven Jones. Who had heard of them before 9/11 truth - the reverance with which they are spoken of is ludicrous, and bears no relation to the iffy nonsense they spout. Let's not pretend there is any comparison with credible commentators on real issues. |
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pepik
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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This thread is not about John Pilger.
Have you watched the cold fusion and zionist controlled America films yet?
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"could it be that ww2 and the extermination of jewish people was planned as a way of creating a race of people who it would be difficult to blame for anything, a cover race for the illuminati?" - a quote NOT from the 'controversial theories' section. |
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Dogsmilk
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well let's be clear - John Pilger is not a truther. Neither is Greg Palast, or Rob Newman, or Mark Curtis. They are all a million miles from being truthers. |
Did anyone say they were? Though they might have some interesting things to say around 911 in general.
| pepik wrote: | This thread is not about John Pilger.
Have you watched the cold fusion and zionist controlled America films yet? |
Well not specifically, but you brought him up and I asked you a question about what you said. If you don't want to answer, just say.
I haven't watched any cold fusion films so I have no idea what they're like. I have virtually no knowledge of the subject so would be ill-equipped to make an informed judgement regarding their accuracy.
I might watch any Zionist controlled America films at some point if I haven't seen them, but I don't personally subscribe to such notions, so it's fairly likely they'll be stuff I've heard before and don't agree with. |
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pepik
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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John Pilger is barely evolved communist propaganda merchant who makes a living spreading hatred of the USA and Israel, and the west and capitalism in general. He makes Chomsky look honest and objective. There you go, enjoy. | Quote: | | haven't watched any cold fusion films so I have no idea what they're like. I have virtually no knowledge of the subject so would be ill-equipped to make an informed judgement regarding their accuracy. |
So you stick with areas where you have expertise, like structural engineering and controlled demolitions? Go on, don't you want to find out about the unlimited supply of clean power that THEY don't want you to know about?
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"could it be that ww2 and the extermination of jewish people was planned as a way of creating a race of people who it would be difficult to blame for anything, a cover race for the illuminati?" - a quote NOT from the 'controversial theories' section. |
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eogz
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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It would be nice if someone could answer the actual question at the start of the thread.
I'd be interested to know if any of you guys have any particular feelings about a point where you could possibly be linked with the odd 'truther' or two.
It would be interesting to know is all? |
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chek
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Dear critics |
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| Alex_V wrote: | Well let's be clear - John Pilger is not a truther. Neither is Greg Palast, or Rob Newman, or Mark Curtis. They are all a million miles from being truthers. You can have James Whale as a truther if you like - REAL journalists are not truthers.
Nobody with credibility in the real world is a truther in my opinion - your star turns are David Ray Griffin or Richard Gage or Steven Jones. Who had heard of them before 9/11 truth - the reverance with which they are spoken of is ludicrous, and bears no relation to the iffy nonsense they spout. Let's not pretend there is any comparison with credible commentators on real issues. |
How anybody can complain that the masterly parsing of the 'iffy nonsense' that is the Official Story of what happened on 9/11 by Griffin is not 'real journalism' is a mystery to me.
And to not understand the significance of the empirical evidence that Jones has discovered through his research on the Tower collapses in favour of the 'iffy nonsense' by the Official (non) Investigations is beyond me too.
I guess a large number of people still have to be told what it's OK to think by authority figures.
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pepik
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | It would be nice if someone could answer the actual question at the start of the thread.
I'd be interested to know if any of you guys have any particular feelings about a point where you could possibly be linked with the odd 'truther' or two.
It would be interesting to know is all? |
Sorry for misinterpreting. I don't think there's any intersection with the views promoted by those videos and my beliefs. I mean "Enron - The Smartest Guys in the Room" - OK, i've seen it, very disappointing, but not much to agree/disagree with there.
Most of the videos push ideologies or theories I am familiar with but which I don't agree with.
With regards to Griffin's "masterly parsing" and "real journalism", this pretty much settles that issue.
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"could it be that ww2 and the extermination of jewish people was planned as a way of creating a race of people who it would be difficult to blame for anything, a cover race for the illuminati?" - a quote NOT from the 'controversial theories' section.
Last edited by pepik on Tue May 13, 2008 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Alex_V
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Location: London, England
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Dear critics |
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| chek wrote: | How anybody can complain that the masterly parsing of the 'iffy nonsense' that is the Official Story of what happened on 9/11 by Griffin is not 'real journalism' is a mystery to me.
And to not understand the significance of the empirical evidence that Jones has discovered through his research on the Tower collapses in favour of the 'iffy nonsense' by the Official (non) Investigations is beyond me too. |
Obviously we disagree. I have to ask though - why does nobody with genuine credibility in the real world support Griffin's 'masterly parsing'? Why are Pilger or Chomsky or Palast or Monbiot or any number of left-wing journalists not truthers?
| Quote: | | I guess a large number of people still have to be told what it's OK to think by authority figures. |
Well that cuts both ways - I would argue that Griffin and Jones have been built up as authority figures by the truth movement for that reason. And of course a few years back, it wasn't Griffin and Jones who were the revered truthers, it was Fetzer and Wood.
I can only say that for me, the almost universal response to 9/11 truth from people in the public eye that I respect has been to largely reject it. Which is surely a telling response in many ways. These are not authority figures, but to me they are authoritative commentators on important issues. |
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SHERITON HOTEL
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| When are the critics going to counter with the official story film festival ?Zelikow(the truth at bargain prices), RKOwens(particularly compelling) and Guy Smith (artistic shots of Dylan Avery's living room). |
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Dogsmilk
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Joined: 06 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| pepik wrote: | John Pilger is barely evolved communist propaganda merchant who makes a living spreading hatred of the USA and Israel, and the west and capitalism in general. He makes Chomsky look honest and objective. There you go, enjoy. | Quote: | | haven't watched any cold fusion films so I have no idea what they're like. I have virtually no knowledge of the subject so would be ill-equipped to make an informed judgement regarding their accuracy. |
So you stick with areas where you have expertise, like structural engineering and controlled demolitions? Go on, don't you want to find out about the unlimited supply of clean power that THEY don't want you to know about? |
Pepik - you're a funny guy.
I don't think Mr Pilger is into "hatred" of the USA and Israel as opposed to the policies implemented by their governments. Or are people who decry the policies of the Burmese government spreading "hatred" of Burma? Did critics of the policies of Iraq under Saddam Hussein spread "hatred" of Iraq? (well I suppose in some cases they might have though...)
I would guess you'd be the sort of person who uses daft phrases like "anti-American".
I've seen no evidence Pilger is a "communist". Is this just paranoid right wing puffery on your part? I bet you were in your element during the cold war.
Can you find any post I've ever made on this forum where I have stated I have expertise in structural engineering and controlled demolitions?
Seriously pepik, watch the yes men - you'll find it really irritating (and possibly communist).
| Alex V wrote: | | These are not authority figures, but to me they are authoritative commentators on important issues. |
Not to pepik though - he's already mentioned Chomsky and I'd guess he's likely not a huge fan of t'others. Indeed, Chomsky has been labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' by his detractors before now (obviously on top of some of the wild allegations made against him in truther circles - which I think are daft) - to a lot of people he lacks credibility. I'd actually argue Chomsky has become something of an authority figure for the left, but that's probably a matter of opinion.
But I know your game - you are clearly just trying to promote communism with your anti-western, anti-capitalist gurus.
| Quote: | | Why are Pilger or Chomsky or Palast or Monbiot or any number of left-wing journalists not truthers? |
Well I think they've all given their reasons. Except I don't think Pilger has ever really commented - I'd be interested if you know otherwise.
. |
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eogz
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Joined: 29 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Dear critics |
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| Alex_V wrote: | | Why are Pilger or Chomsky or Palast or Monbiot or any number of left-wing journalists not truthers? |
I'd agree with you there Alex, there is no right way to the truth, most of us say the truth as we each see it, hence this site and Critic's Corner within it.
For me Noam Chomsky is a truther, he exposes much of the wrongs being carried out in he world today. Anybody willing to say what they really think and justify their arguments whether I agree with it or not is a truther! They are only espousing their own version of it! |
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Alex_V
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Dear critics |
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| eogz wrote: | | For me Noam Chomsky is a truther, he exposes much of the wrongs being carried out in he world today. Anybody willing to say what they really think and justify their arguments whether I agree with it or not is a truther! They are only espousing their own version of it! |
You give a good description of why freedom of speech is such an important principle. But it doesn't help us sift through the mountains of information that is available to us. We can respect other people's right to truth all we want, it doesn't help us filter out the good from the bad. I don't think 'truthers' as a breed are good at filtering information.
| Dogsmilk wrote: | | Well I think they've all given their reasons. Except I don't think Pilger has ever really commented - I'd be interested if you know otherwise. |
Pilger is definitely highly critical, or even suspicious of the American administration's preparation and response to 9/11, but he criticises in the the context of the 9/11 commission report, not on unproven theories about controlled demolition or the like.
I think this is the correct way to proceed - we can all share a suspicion, and I certainly would not criticise anyone for having a political viewpoint. But so often in 9/11 truth we are not talking about ideologies or politics, we are talking about basic accusations about 9/11 that are simply not true - that is what drives a wedge between truthers and critics.
The broad sweep is simply not the issue here, and that's why I find a lot of those videos irrelevant to the debates we have on this forum. I am not a critic of leftist politics, I am a critic of factual inaccuracies on which political opinions might be based. |
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pepik
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Pepik - you're a funny guy. |
Thanks, I try.
| Quote: | | I don't think Mr Pilger is into "hatred" of the USA and Israel as opposed to the policies implemented by their governments. |
I can tell the difference. He is a hatemonger and a propagandist. | Quote: | | Or are people who decry the policies of the Burmese government spreading "hatred" of Burma? |
No. | Quote: | | Did critics of the policies of Iraq under Saddam Hussein spread "hatred" of Iraq? (well I suppose in some cases they might have though...) |
Aha, so suddenly the concept becomes valid... when you can blame the west. You would make a great Pilgerite if you aren't one already. | Quote: | | I would guess you'd be the sort of person who uses daft phrases like "anti-American". |
If you cannot even accept that anti-Americanism exists, you are a Pilgerite. | Quote: | | I've seen no evidence Pilger is a "communist". |
Well, like truthers, he's more against things than he is for them. Its easier. But a loathing of capitalism is a common theme in his work. And no matter how much he writes about Vietnam, he can't seem to squeeze a critical word in about the communist regime except to shed tears about the opening up of their economy. He seems to think Mandela betrayed South Africa by not having a radical left wing economic revolution. What does that tell you? | Quote: | | Is this just paranoid right wing puffery on your part? |
Sorry I'm one of those people who think communism is bad, although I know that many people get the giggles at the idea. Anti fascism is very chic, anti communism is so uncool. Myself, I can't imagine one with out the other. | Quote: | | I bet you were in your element during the cold war. |
I'm glad its over, I'm glad we (the west, capitalism, democracy) won. I spend a lot of time in eastern Europe, and they seem pretty glad it turned out that way too. | Quote: | | Can you find any post I've ever made on this forum where I have stated I have expertise in structural engineering and controlled demolitions? |
No, yet you won't look at cold fusion. Why? | Quote: | | Seriously pepik, watch the yes men - you'll find it really irritating (and possibly communist). |
If you insist, I will give it a try. | Quote: | | Well I think they've all given their reasons. Except I don't think Pilger has ever really commented - I'd be interested if you know otherwise. |
Pilger would give an evasive answer and then proceed to discuss how America is the greatest evil mankind has ever known.
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"could it be that ww2 and the extermination of jewish people was planned as a way of creating a race of people who it would be difficult to blame for anything, a cover race for the illuminati?" - a quote NOT from the 'controversial theories' section. |
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chek
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Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| pepik wrote: | | With regards to Griffin's "masterly parsing" and "real journalism", this pretty much settles that issue. |
Before proceeding with this pepik, would it be a fair summation to say that your (usual) position is basically 'I read it on a debunking site, therefore it must be true'?
Debunkitus ergo sum, as it were?
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Dogsmilk
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Alex V wrote: | Pilger is definitely highly critical, or even suspicious of the American administration's preparation and response to 9/11, but he criticises in the the context of the 9/11 commission report, not on unproven theories about controlled demolition or the like.
I think this is the correct way to proceed - we can all share a suspicion, and I certainly would not criticise anyone for having a political viewpoint. But so often in 9/11 truth we are not talking about ideologies or politics, we are talking about basic accusations about 9/11 that are simply not true - that is what drives a wedge between truthers and critics.
The broad sweep is simply not the issue here, and that's why I find a lot of those videos irrelevant to the debates we have on this forum. I am not a critic of leftist politics, I am a critic of factual inaccuracies on which political opinions might be based. |
I think arguing the toss about different theories is fine, but I think sometimes things get too polarised into an "all or nothing" dynamic. I think the truth movement is sometimes guilty of "for truth good, not truth bad" thinking with people that don't believe in an inside job but nevertheless share common concerns over such things as the way the 911 commission/7/7 (non) enquiry have been handled, the war on terror, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. On the other hand, I think critics can get stuck in "auto truther debunk mode" and not want to associate in any way with 'conspiracy theorists'. I just sometimes wonder if there are some areas where people forget there might be an element of commonality.
| pepik wrote: | | I can tell the difference. He is a hatemonger and a propagandist. |
Your reply suggests to me otherwise.
Then how are they different?
| Quote: | | Aha, so suddenly the concept becomes valid... when you can blame the west. You would make a great Pilgerite if you aren't one already. |
When I reflected on that example it occurred to me that in times of war it's typical to demonise the enemy as a whole. Not recalling any specific examples, I included it as a maybe. In general though, the point remains the same as the Burma one. So I assume you think Mr Pilger should not criticise America's abysmal track record of backing dictators, destablising governments, sponsoring terror etc, but criticising Mr Hussein with his rather less globe-spanning evil antics initially backed by America was an entirely different matter...?
| Quote: | | If you cannot even accept that anti-Americanism exists, you are a Pilgerite. |
I am sure people hate Americans simply because they are Americans, the English because they are English, the Welsh because they are Welsh and so on but this term is frequently invoked in terms of criticisms of the actions of the American state. This is of course as ludicrous as saying that if I criticise the policies of Saudi Arabia I am an "anti-Saudi" when I clearly have no beef with the Saudi population itself. I am "anti-American" in the "Pilgerite" sense, but I have no problem with Americans as a people. I've been there twice and thought they were a smashing bunch. So the term is misleading and emotive - it attempts to deflect animosity towards the government onto the people as a whole.
| Quote: | | Well, like truthers, he's more against things than he is for them. Its easier. But a loathing of capitalism is a common theme in his work. And no matter how much he writes about Vietnam, he can't seem to squeeze a critical word in except to shed tears about the opening up of their economy. He seems to think Mandela betrayed South Africa by not having a radical left wing economic revolution. What does that tell yo |
Just because you don't like capitalism, that doesn't mean you have to be a communist.
| Quote: | Sorry I'm one of those people who think communism is bad, although I know that many people get the giggles at the idea. Anti fascism is very chic, anti communism is so uncool. Myself, I can't imagine one with out the other.
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Why do people get giggles? It kind of seems to me even socialism is a dirty word these days.
It's kind of making me wonder what exactly you mean by "communism". For example, I'm kind of into some 'communist' ideas myself, but I can't stand the old Soviet Union or Chinese models.
| Quote: | | I'm glad its over, I'm glad we (the west, capitalism, democracy) won. I spend a lot of time in eastern Europe, and they seem pretty glad it turned out that way too. |
Oh come now - I bet you miss it - top gun, rambo, red dawn, threads...and I bet you wept like a child the day Thatcher resigned...
Interestingly, from what I've gathered from Russia, some people have done very, very well and are happy and others...not so well. Don't get me wrong - the SU sucked, but I don't think its been one big party for everyone. Still, I suppose it depends what neighbourhood you're in. Mind you, I was shocked at the levels of poverty (and extreme affluence) I saw in American cities once I did some exploring. I was surprised how close to the tacky glitz of the strip in Vegas there are some pretty dire areas. With only run down church organisations seeming to offer any help in a 'pray for food' stylee.
| Quote: | | No, yet you won't look at cold fusion. Why? |
I'm not really interested in it and like I said it's something I don't know anything about. I suppose hypothetical free energy will have to get by without my advocacy.
| Quote: | If you insist, I will give it a try.
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That's the spirit!
| Quote: | Pilger would give an evasive answer and then proceed to discuss how America is the greatest evil mankind has ever known.
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It is isn't it? |
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sam
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Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 343
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: | | pepik wrote: | | With regards to Griffin's "masterly parsing" and "real journalism", this pretty much settles that issue. |
Before proceeding with this pepik, would it be a fair summation to say that your (usual) position is basically 'I read it on a debunking site, therefore it must be true'?
Debunkitus ergo sum, as it were? |
From the article linked above by David Ray Griffin (speaking of the WTC)
"Fifth, great quantities of molten steel were produced, which means that the steel had been heated up to several thousand degrees. "
Anybody capable of such a statement deserves to be called a wanquaire. "Masterly parsing" ??? Don't make me laugh. Chek - I learned such words in the 1960's and they don't impress me. Your sophism might impress the twoofer lads and lassies though, so carry on.
Prof Jones proposed "pyroclastic flow" at WTC, despite the notable absence of volcanoes in lower Manhattan. Was that some parsing that was less than masterly? "Moderate parsing" maybe? "Desperately erroneous parsing" perhaps?
Ross initially claimed that the WTC upper sections should have "bounced" on the lower sections and have been .. well... kind of "caught". But of course both his premises and calculations were faulty. He accepted this. "Initially faulty parsing, but let's try again and throw in some thermite for good measure with improved parsing " ??
You so funny.
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KP50
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Posts: 526
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Dear critics |
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| Alex_V wrote: | | I can only say that for me, the almost universal response to 9/11 truth from people in the public eye that I respect has been to largely reject it. Which is surely a telling response in many ways. These are not authority figures, but to me they are authoritative commentators on important issues. |
The thing is Alex, 9/11 is really easy to work out, you don't need "authoritative commentators" to tell you what to think. Yet you seem reluctant to think for yourself - yet all the information is available to you to work this one out. And I don't mean work out what exactly happened on 9/11, that is beyond any of us - I mean weigh the mass of inaccuracies, coinsidences and impossible events and then realise that the official tale is so far away from believable that it is an insult to your intelligence.
I have already given you the "taxi driver" example and the fact that a small child would know that story can't be true. Take the Shanksville crash site - any idiot can see there is no trace of a plane there, you don't need a "respected journalist" to tell you that.
Think for yourself. |
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| sam wrote: | From the article linked above by David Ray Griffin (speaking of the WTC)
"Fifth, great quantities of molten steel were produced, which means that the steel had been heated up to several thousand degrees. "
Anybody capable of such a statement deserves to be called a wanquaire. |
So how are your home experiments with your white hot glowing lead going then Sam? Still no exapmles of your cool-yet-white-hot-looking flows posted yet, I see. Perhaps you have another method other than heat in mind to melt steel?
| sam wrote: | | "Masterly parsing" ??? Don't make me laugh. Chek - I learned such words in the 1960's and they don't impress me. Your sophism might impress the twoofer lads and lassies though, so carry on. |
You may have learned to use such words, but apparently not what they mean. Still you carry on impressing your Quitic buddies with your empty puffery.
| sam wrote: | | Prof Jones proposed "pyroclastic flow" at WTC, despite the notable absence of volcanoes in lower Manhattan. Was that some parsing that was less than masterly? "Moderate parsing" maybe? "Desperately erroneous parsing" perhaps? |
Rather than twittering on about absent volcanoes, you could attempt to understand that the pyroclastic-like flow was coined due to the formation of a fluid formed from dust and heated air dense enough to be capable of lifting and transporting a man half a block. There'll be a link to this factoid I posted somewhere - possibly in the Improbable Collapse thread a while back - but frankly I can't be arsed to find it, and you probably couldn't care less anyway, so we'll call that quits.
| sam wrote: | | Ross initially claimed that the WTC upper sections should have "bounced" on the lower sections and have been .. well... kind of "caught". But of course both his premises and calculations were faulty. He accepted this. "Initially faulty parsing, but let's try again and throw in some thermite for good measure with improved parsing " ?? |
It's quite telling that Ross is patently working from calculation and therefore open to error, whereas who knows wtf is driving you Sam?
No - me chek, you funny.
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jomper
Validated Poster
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 99
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Pilger has commented on the events before and after 9/11, as others have already noted. He does not claim there was a conspiracy, but he raises questions that I feel a defender of the official narrative needs to address.
For example:
"The [Kean] report reveals that the only part of a previously fail-safe command system that worked [on 9/11] was in the White House where Vice-President Cheney was in effective control that day, and in close touch with the National Military Command Center.
"Why did he do nothing about the first two hijacked planes? Why was the NMCC, the vital link, silent for the first time in its existence? Kean ostentatiously refuses to address this.
"Of course, it could be due to the most extraordinary combination of coincidences."
(John Pilger, New Statesman, 2004)
So my question to those who feel Pilger is a dishonourable or dishonest journalist would be: do you genuinely believe that an extraordinary combination of coincidences occurred on Cheney's watch? Or would you prefer to defend his inaction on the basis of incompetence?
Pilger continues:
"On the afternoon of 11 September, Donald Rumsfeld, having failed to act against those who had just attacked the United States, told his aides to set in motion an attack on Iraq — when the evidence was non-existent."
So, my critical friends: either Rumsfeld motioned an attack on Iraq on the afternoon of 9/11 or he didn't.
If you accept that he did, I think we can all agree that this action could be called "fishy", in the terms Ian used at the top of this thread. |
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paul wright
Moderator
Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Sunny Bradford, Northern Lights
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| A Sharp Major wrote: | Ian Neal says of critics
| Quote: | | In your universe there is nothing even vaguely fishy about 9/11 and 'troofers' are a bunch of deluded paranoids |
It isn't 911 but the same minds are at work. Paul Wright isn't alone. I expect one leading 'truther' will see a six pointed star in the carnage and debris created by the earthquake. |
Your conditioned minds are a sorry state to survey.
I hope you and your pals above get better soon. Your singular failure to get the point signifies your delusory state.
You are swept up easily by the state's control of this illusory mad world
Enjoy your time on here OCT nutters. It's short
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Wibble
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Wibble
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can I ask whether any of the conspiracies detailed in these films make you question whether you may be wrong about 9/11? |
When will the Truthers realise that most, if not all, of the video are made to make money and/or fame? A video, even if it was 100% honest, true and did find the smoking gun is not going to do anything. Did the NIST make a video to prove it's evidence? No they wrote a full and detailed report which showed all the tests, sources of evidence and so on.
If the Truther have some real evidence stop making videos and take this evidence to court. But as always all you have is Youtube links and speculation. |
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sam
Wrecker
Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 343
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: |
So how are your home experiments with your white hot glowing lead going then Sam? Still no exapmles of your cool-yet-white-hot-looking flows posted yet, I see. Perhaps you have another method other than heat in mind to melt steel?
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You'll have to wait till October for that (local laws came into play on May 1st)
Meanwhile here's some non-shiny molten aluminium to keep you ticking over...
What's truly amazing is that all this stuff is freely available, but you haven't looked.
| chek wrote: |
Rather than twittering on about absent volcanoes, you could attempt to understand that the pyroclastic-like flow was coined due to the formation of a fluid formed from dust and heated air dense enough to be capable of lifting and transporting a man half a block. There'll be a link to this factoid I posted somewhere - possibly in the Improbable Collapse thread a while back - but frankly I can't be arsed to find it, and you probably couldn't care less anyway, so we'll call that quits.
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Nobody was thrown "half a block". There are films of people caught up in the dust clouds. Naudet and the firefighter had the camera running and nothing like that happened.
But - You're rewriting history. Jones didn't say "pyroclastic-like". He said pyroclastic. He pointedly remarked it had previously only happened in volcanic eruptions and some related underwater phenomenon. Hoffman made huge efforts to justify it, but failed and eventually withdrew his paper on the subject. Pyroclastic flow would burn to death everybody in its path. Didn't happen. Jones was being an attention-seeking drama queen, just like the "masterly" Griffin.
| chek wrote: |
It's quite telling that Ross is patently working from calculation and therefore open to error, whereas who knows wtf is driving you Sam?
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Good for him. And while he was shown to be wrong countless times he tried to defend his position, only succumbing when he began to look plain stupid and unscientific.
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Stefan
Banned
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 1219
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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Sam/ignatz,
The problem is that you know as well as anyone else what temperature aluminium needs to reach yellow/white/orange colours... and you're left with exactly the same discrepancy as with steel melting...
Lame.
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