| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
marky 54
Mega Poster
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 3293
|
 Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | Germany was trying to do what Britain had been doing for centuries - create an empire and dominate others. |
| Quote: | The USA went to war in Iraq in response to Iraq's possession of wmd. They went to war in Afghanistan because they "hated our freedoms". The have not gone to war with North Korea or Israel who have wmd nor have they invaded countries like Zimbabwe which are run by terrorists. They are very selective about who they go to war with. Britain and the USA have ignored a multitude of treaty "obligations" when it suited them and to say we went to assist Poland because we felt a moral obligation is the most niave comment I have read on these forums.
|
i fail to see how one empire dominating others is justified and another empire is'nt.
how can you critise america and the uk but then say 'germany were just doing what others have done'.
all of it is bad, there is no excuse for germanys history. by your logic you would'nt complain if sweden invaded your country and then said 'but we are only doing what america and the uk have done in their past' 'ah i see ok then, carry on chaps'
denmark come to the rescue 'how dare you free the country from foreign invaders! they were only doing what others have done in the past! you nazi's you! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I am not saying Germany is innocent. It is you who are saying the UK is innocent and that Germany is the culpable party. I am saying Germany was no more to blame for the world wars than the UK, and in some ways was responding to provocation by the UK and others. To accept that the UK could control millions of square miles of other people's countries and that was all right but Germany must not do so because for them it would be wrong is your silly thinking. It is wrong for any country to subjugate another.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
well I don't think anyone in this thread has said the UK is "innocent", so you seem to have made that up.
and I didn't notice anyone saying that it was ok for the uk "to control millions of square miles of other people's countries", so you're making that up as well.
on the other hand you were trying to justify germany's invasion of multiple countries by saying that it was only doing what the brits and others had previously done, so you're also contradicting yourself.
but I'm glad that you seem to have accepted that germany was wrong to start the war by invading poland.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | well I don't think anyone in this thread has said the UK is "innocent", so you seem to have made that up. |
You have and continue to imply it. The title of the thread says it all. I'm done with your infantile remarks.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
|
| Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't really think it's productive to view relations between major nations as 'innocent' or 'guilty'. We humans, no matter where we originate from, can be equally brutal and barbaric to each other given the right circumstances. To pretend otherwise, or accuse others of being worse is self-delusion. With my apologies to any saintly special cases.
Nations will do whatever they think they can get away with in the name of their current (ruling class) generation's idea of achieving their future security, and damn the consequences for others. Sometimes that approach will 'work', but more often than not, it'll fail. Particularly if the aggregate result over a few generations is calculated.
However, nations are our collective localised selves, and the real post-nuclear, post-1945 question we have to answer and put into effect is do we live like packs of wolves or rabid dogs, or do we live like men (in the general non-sexist sense)?
I like to think the answer is obvious, but sometimes I despair, really.
_________________
Dissolution of the Global Corporations.
It's the only way.
It's them or us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wepmob2000
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Posts: 431
Location: North East England
|
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blackcat wrote: |
Germany was trying to do what Britain had been doing for centuries - create an empire and dominate others. They tried to improve their economy by fairer means and trade with others but they were soon dragged in to ww1 for that. |
This is another myth, Germany was not dragged into WWI at all, it pretty much came down to its treaty obligations with Austro-Hungary, and train timetables (as AJP Taylor once showed). If Germany had possessed more than one plan for war, they could have avoided invading France in 1914, or they could have reneged on her obligations and avoided even going to war with Russia. There was never any inevitability about Germany going to war in 1914, even if Britain did resent growing German naval power.
You're right about countries only fulfilling their obligations when it suits them, but even at the start of WWII Germany had a choice, they were given an ultimatum by France and Britain to withdraw from Poland. Which part of the German invasion of Poland was justifiable? Did anything Poland might have done justify the destruction of Warsaw, or the highest proportionate death rate of any country in WWII?
If you're looking for alternate villains in WWII, its worthwhile doing some research on Roosevelt, looking at some of his ulterior motives, and his self serving abandonment of Poland at the Tehran conference. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rodin
Validated Poster
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 2224
Location: UK
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| wepmob2000 wrote: | | If you're looking for alternate villains in WWII, its worthwhile doing some research on Roosevelt, looking at some of his ulterior motives, and his self serving abandonment of Poland at the Tehran conference. |
well of course here were other villains in ww2 - but that's no excuse for posting or believing such blatantly obvious nazi propaganda....
| blackcat wrote: | | You have and continue to imply it. The title of the thread says it all. I'm done with your infantile remarks. |
I didn't imply it at all - you imagined it. just like you imagined everything else you've claimed in this thread - and your reaction to being confronted with facts that prove you're talking * says it all.
unfortunately, I'm sure you're not done with posting more of the same drivel in future. now that you're not allowed to deny the holocaust any more, I suppose that trying to whitewash nazi germany's other crimes must be the next best thing.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | now that you're not allowed to deny the holocaust any more, I suppose that trying to whitewash nazi germany's other crimes must be the next best thing... |
I invite you to apologise for that lie.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| what lie? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok I'm sick of shills like you with your perverse postings. I'm out of here.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lol - I invite you to stop calling me names and generally refrain from being such a drama queen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Avoiding a foul smell is not being a drama queen.
| Quote: | At the end of the First World War, Germany was essentially tricked [see Paul Johnson A History of the Modern World (1983) p24 and H Nicholson Peacemaking 1919 (1933) pp13-16] into paying massive reparations to France and other economic competitors and former belligerent countries in terms of the so-called Treaty of Versailles, thanks to the liberal American President Woodrow Wilson. Germany was declared to be solely responsible for the war, in spite of the fact that ‘Germany did not plot a European war, did not want one, and made genuine efforts, though too belated, to avert one.’ (Professor Sydney B Fay The Origins of the World War (vol. 2 p 552)).
As a result of these massive enforced financial reparations, by 1923 the situation in Germany became desperate and inflation on an astronomical scale became the only way out for the government. Printing presses were engaged to print money around the clock. In 1921 the exchange rate was 75 marks to the dollar. By 1924 this had become about 5 trillion marks to the dollar. This virtually destroyed the German middle class (Koestler The God that Failed p 28 ), reducing any bank savings to a virtual zero.
According to Sir Arthur Bryant the British historian (Unfinished Victory (1940 pp. 136-144):
‘It was the Jews with their international affiliations and their hereditary flair for finance who were best able to seize such opportunities.. They did so with such effect that, even in November 1938, after five years of anti-Semitic legislation and persecution, they still owned, according to the Times correspondent in Berlin, something like a third of the real property in the Reich. Most of it came into their hands during the inflation.. But to those who had lost their all this bewildering transfer seemed a monstrous injustice. After prolonged sufferings they had now been deprived of their last possessions. They saw them pass into the hands of strangers, many of whom had not shared their sacrifices and who cared little or nothing for their national standards and traditions.. The Jews obtained a wonderful ascendancy in politics, business and the learned professions (in spite of constituting) less than one percent of the population.. The banks, including the Reichsbank and the big private banks, were practically controlled by them. So were the publishing trade, the cinema, the theatres and a large part of the press – all the normal means, in fact, by which public opinion in a civilized country is formed.. The largest newspaper combine in the country with a daily circulation of four millions was a Jewish monopoly.. Every year it became harder and harder for a gentile to gain or keep a foothold in any privileged occupation.. At this time it was not the ‘Aryans’ who exercised racial discrimination. It was a discrimination that operated without violence. It was exercised by a minority against a majority. There was no persecution, only elimination.. It was the contrast between the wealth enjoyed – and lavishly displayed – by aliens of cosmopolitan tastes, and the poverty and misery of native Germans, that has made anti-Semitism so dangerous and ugly a force in the new Europe. Beggars on horseback are seldom popular, least of all with those whom they have just thrown out of the saddle.’
Strangely enough, a book unexpectedly published by Princeton University Press in 1984, Sarah Gordon (Hitler, Germans and the “Jewish Question”) essentially confirms what Bryant says. According to her, ‘Jews were never a large percentage of the total German population; at no time did they exceed 1% of the population during the years 1871-1933.’ But she adds ‘Jews were over-represented in business, commerce, and public and private service.. They were especially visible in private banking in Berlin, which in 1923 had 150 private Jewish banks, as opposed to only 11 private non-Jewish banks.. They owned 41% of iron and scrap iron firms and 57% of other metal businesses.. Jews were very active in the stock market, particularly in Berlin, where in 1928 they comprised 80% of the leading members of the stock exchange. By 1933, when the Nazis began eliminating Jews from prominent positions, 85% of the brokers on the Berlin Stock exchange were dismissed because of their “race”.. At least a quarter of full professors and instructors (at German universities) had Jewish origins.. In 1905-6 Jewish students comprised 25% of the law and medical students.. In 1931, 50% of the 234 theatre directors in Germany were Jewish, and in Berlin the number was 80%.. In 1929 it was estimated that the per capita income of Jews in Berlin was twice that of other Berlin residents..’ etc etc.
Arthur Koestler confirms the Jewish over-involvement in German publishing. ‘Ullstein’s was a kind of super-trust; the largest organization of its kind in Europe, and probably In the world. They published four daily papers in Berlin alone, among these the venerable Vossische Zeitung, founded in the eighteenth century, and the B.Z. am Mittag, an evening paper.. Apart from these, Ullstein’s published more than a dozen weekly and monthly periodicals, ran their own news service, their own travel agency, etc., and were one of the leading book publishers. The firm was owned by the brothers Ullstein - they were five, like the original Rothschild brothers, and like them also, they were Jews.’ (The God that Failed (1950) ed. RHS Crossman, p 31).
Edgar Mowrer, Berlin correspondent for the Chicago Daily News, wrote an anti-German tract called Germany Puts the Clock Back (published as a Penguin Special and reprinted five times between December 1937 and April 1938). He nevertheless notes ‘In the all-important administration of Prussia, any number of strategic positions came into the hands of Hebrews.. A telephone conversation between three Jews in Ministerial offices could result in the suspension of any periodical or newspaper in the state.. The Jews came in Germany to play in politics and administration that same considerable part that they had previously won by open competition in business, trade, banking, the Press, the arts, the sciences and the intellectual and cultural life of the country. And thereby the impression was strengthened that Germany, a country with a mission of its own, had fallen into the hands of foreigners.’
Mowrer says ‘No one who lived through the period from 1919 to 1926 is likely to forget the sexual promiscuity that prevailed.. Throughout a town like Berlin, hotels and pensions made vast fortunes by letting rooms by the hour or day to baggageless, unregistered guests. Hundreds of cabarets, pleasure resorts and the like served for purposes of getting acquainted and acquiring the proper mood..’ (pp. 153-4). Bryant describes throngs of child prostitutes outside the doors of the great Berlin hotels and restaurants. He adds ‘Most of them (the night clubs and vice-resorts) were owned and managed by Jews. And it was the Jews.. among the promoters of this trade who were remembered in after years.’ (pp. 144-5).
Douglas Reed, Chief Central European correspondent before WWII for the London Times, was profoundly anti-German and anti-Hitler. But nevertheless he reported: ‘I watched the Brown Shirts going from shop to shop with paint pots and daubing on the window panes the word “Jew”, in dripping red letters. The Kurfürstendamm was to me a revelation. I knew that Jews were prominent in business life, but I did not know that they almost monopolized important branches of it. Germany had one Jew to one hundred gentiles, said the statistics; but the fashionable Kurfürstendamm, according to the dripping red legends, had about one gentile shop to ninety-nine Jewish ones.’ (Reed Insanity Fair (1938) p. 152-3). In Reed’s book Disgrace Abounding of the following year he notes ‘In the Berlin (of pre-Hitler years) most of the theatres were Jewish-owned or Jewish-leased, most of the leading film and stage actors were Jews, the plays performed were often by German, Austrian or Hungarian Jews and were staged by Jewish film producers, applauded by Jewish dramatic critics in Jewish newspapers.. The Jews are not cleverer than the Gentiles, if by clever you mean good at their jobs. They ruthlessly exploit the common feeling of Jews, first to get a foothold in a particular trade or calling, then to squeeze the non-Jews out of it.. It is not true that Jews are better journalists than Gentiles. They held all the posts on those Berlin papers because the proprietors and editors were Jewish’ (pp238-9).
The Jewish writer Edwin Black notes ‘For example, in Berlin alone, about 75% of the attorneys and nearly as many of the doctors were Jewish.’ (Black, The Transfer Agreement (1984) p58.
To cap it all, Jews were perceived as dangerous enemies of Germany after Samuel Untermeyer, the leader of the World Jewish Economic Federation, declared war on Germany on August 6 1933. (Edwin Black The Transfer Agreement: the Untold Story of the Secret Pact between the Third Reich and Palestine (1984) pp272-277) According to Black, ‘The one man who most embodied the potential death blow to Germany was Samuel Untermeyer.’ (p 369). This was the culmination of a worldwide boycott of German goods led by international Jewish organizations. The London Daily Express on March 24, 1933 carried the headline Judea Declares War on Germany. The boycott was particularly motivated by the German imposition of the Nuremberg Laws, which ironically were similar in intent and content to the Jewish cultural exclusivism practiced so visibly in present-day Israel (Hannah Arendt Eichmann in Jerusalem p 7).
Hitler saw the tremendous danger posed to Germany by Communism. He appreciated the desperate need to eliminate this threat, a fact that earned him the immense hatred and animosity of the Jewish organisations and the media and politicians of the west which they could influence. After all, according to the Jewish writer Chaim Bermant, although Jews formed less than five percent of Russia’s population, they formed more than fifty percent of its revolutionaries. According to the Jewish writer Chaim Bermant in his book The Jews (1977, chapter 8 ) :
‘It must be added that most of the leading revolutionaries who convulsed Europe in the final decades of the last century and the first decades of this one, stemmed from prosperous Jewish families.. They were perhaps typified by the father of revolution, Karl Marx.. Thus when, after the chaos of World War I, revolutions broke out all over Europe, Jews were everywhere at the helm; Trotsky, Sverdlov, Kamenev and Zinoviev in Russia, Bela Kun in Hungary, Kurt Eisner in Bavaria, and, most improbable of all, Rosa Luxemburg in Berlin.
‘To many outside observers, the Russian revolution looked like a Jewish conspiracy, especially when it was followed by Jewish-led revolutionary outbreaks in much of central Europe. The leadership of the Bolshevik Party had a preponderance of Jews.. Of the seven members of the Politburo, the inner cabinet of the country, four, Trotsky (Bronstein), Zinoviev (Radomsky), Kamenev (Rosenfeld) and Sverdlov, were Jews.’ Other authors agree with this:
“There has been a tendency to circumvent or simply ignore the significant role of Jewish intellectuals in the German Communist Party, and thereby seriously neglect one of the genuine and objective reasons for increased anti-Semitism during and after World War 1.. The prominence of Jews in the revolution and early Weimar Republic is indisputable, and this was a very serious contributing cause for increased anti-Semitism in post-war years.. It is clear then that the stereotype of Jews as socialists and communists.. led many Germans to distrust the Jewish minority as a whole and to brand Jews as enemies of the German nation.” (Sarah Gordon Hitler, Germans and the ‘Jewish Question’ Princeton University Press (1984) p 23).
“The second paroxysm of strong anti-Semitism came after the critical role of Jews in International Communism and the Russian Revolution and during the economic crises of the 1920s and 30s… Anti-Semitism intensified throughout Europe and North America following the perceived and actual centrality of Jews in the Russian Revolution.. Such feelings were not restricted to Germany, or to vulgar extremists like the Nazis. All over Northern Europe and North America, anti-Semitism became the norm in ‘nice society’, and ‘nice society’ included the universities.” (Martin Bernal, Black Athena vol. 1 pp. 367, 387).
“The major role Jewish leaders played in the November (Russian) revolution was probably more important than any other factor in confirming (Hitler’s) anti-Semitic beliefs.” (J&S Pool, Who Financed Hitler, p.164).
Hitler came to power in Germany with two main aims, the rectification of the unjust provisions of the Versailles Treaty, and the destruction of the Soviet/ Communist threat to Germany. Strangely enough, contrary to the mythology created by those who had an opposing ethnic agenda, he had no plans or desire for a larger war of conquest. Professor AJP Taylor showed this in his book The Origins of the Second World War, to the disappointment of the professional western political establishment. Taylor says, “The state of German armament in 1939 gives the decisive proof that Hitler was not contemplating general war, and probably not intending war at all” (p.267), and “Even in 1939 the German army was not equipped for a prolonged war; and in 1940 the German land forces were inferior to the French in everything except leadership” (p104-5). What occurred in Europe in 1939-41 was the result of unforeseen weaknesses and a tipping of the balance of power, and Hitler was an opportunist ‘who took advantages whenever they offered themselves’ (Taylor). Britain and France declared war on Germany, not the other way around. Hitler wanted peace with Britain, as the German generals admitted (Basil Liddell Hart, The Other Side of the Hill 1948, Pan Books 1983) with regard to the so-called Halt Order at Dunkirk, where Hitler had the opportunity to capture the entire British Army, but chose not to. Liddell Hart, one of Britain’s most respected military historians, quotes the German General von Blumentritt with regard to this Halt Order:
“He (Hitler) then astonished us by speaking with admiration of the British Empire, of the necessity for its existence, and of the civilisation that Britain had brought into the world. He remarked, with a shrug of the shoulders, that the creation of its Empire had been achieved by means that were often harsh, but ‘where there is planing, there are shavings flying’. He compared the British Empire with the catholic Church – saying they were both essential elements of stability in the world. He said that all he wanted from Britain was that she should acknowledge Germany’s position on the Continent. The return of Germany’s colonies would be desirable but not essential, and he would even offer to support Britain with troops if she should be involved in difficulties anywhere..” (p 200).
According to Liddell Hart, “At the time we believed that the repulse of the Luftwaffe in the ‘Battle over Britain’ had saved her. That is only part of the explanation, the last part of it. The original cause, which goes much deeper, is that Hitler did not want to conquer England. He took little interest in the invasion preparations, and for weeks did nothing tospur them on; then, after a brief impulse to invade, he veered around again and suspended the preparations. He was preparing, instead, to invade Russia” (p140).
David Irving in the foreword to his book The Warpath (1978) refers to “the discovery.. that at no time did this man (Hitler) pose or intend a real threat to Britain or the Empire.”
This gives a completely different complexion, not only to the war, but to the successful suppression of this information during the war and afterwards. Historians today know only too well where the boundaries lie within which they can paint their pictures of the war and its aftermath, and the consequences of venturing beyond those boundaries, irrespective of the evidence. Unfortunately, only too few of them have been prepared to have the courage to break out of this dreadful straitjacket of official and unofficial censorship. |
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blackcat wrote: | Avoiding a foul smell is not being a drama queen.
|
Blackcat, in all seriousness, you're not attempting to quote David Irving as a credible source are you??
_________________
Dissolution of the Global Corporations.
It's the only way.
It's them or us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blackcat wrote: | | Avoiding a foul smell is not being a drama queen. |
where did you find the foul smelling diatribe you posted? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackbear
Validated Poster
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 656
Location: up north
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
Blackcat
Thanks for an interesting read, it helps to explain many things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| blackbear wrote: | Blackcat
Thanks for an interesting read, it helps to explain many things. |
Yes, it certainly does. Especially what's been going on round here lately.
_________________
Dissolution of the Global Corporations.
It's the only way.
It's them or us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Blackcat, in all seriousness, you're not attempting to quote David Irving as a credible source are you?? |
I had a feeling that would be singled out. I left it in knowing that the 90 odd percent of the rest would be ignored and the message would be overlooked in favour of an attack on the messenger. For the same reason I left out the source, knowing that any site that critices the Jewish mafioso would, de facto, be unacceptable. The usual - ignore all the points and just call it "foul-smelling" and not to be given any credence because a smidgin was by David Irving. I do not care what anyone thinks of Irving - deal with what he says. There was an interesting interview on Alex Jones this morning with a Dr Macow (a Jew himself) who claims we are undergoing a similar process today as occurred leading to WW2 and that "Organised Jewry" as he puts it are behind the current wars and economic problems. According to him he speaks for many Jews who detest these neo-cons who claim to be acting for world Jewry/Israel but who are the worst enemy that Jews could have. But why should he be allowed a view? Why don't we all just shut up and do what we are told to do, and believe what we are told to believe by Gruts et al?! Questioning of official history is forbidden!! 9/11 was carried out by 19 Arabs because they hate our "freedoms". Do not ask questions!!!
For the umpteenth time - I believe that Jews were systematically targetted by Hitler's Germany and murdered. I believe millions perished. I believe there was a "Holocaust". I believe anti-Semitism was rife in Germany. I want to ask WHY!!!! I want to know what caused it and who generated it. It is infantile to just say "anti-Semitism" was the reason. What was the reason for the anti-Semitism? The Germans are no different from us. What happened in Germany can happen and is happening again in the USA in particular. What the fu** is so wrong in debating it???
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell.
Last edited by blackcat on Tue May 20, 2008 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
stop trying to equate 9/11 truth with your nazi apologetics.
still waiting for the source of the diatribe you posted.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Stop trying to associate any questioning of official history with being a Nazi. Your trump card of "Holocaust denial" has worn out. It has been overplayed.
| Quote: | | still waiting for the source... |
Over twenty references provided even with page numbers and you want to know the source!! What a jerk.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
stop being so dishonest.
I'm quite obviously not trying to equate questioning official history with being a nazi,
you on the other hand were trying to equate 9/11 truth with your nazi apologetics....
so for the third time - from which WEBSITE did you get the foul smelling diatribe you posted?
why are you being so evasive about it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| blackcat wrote: | | I had a feeling that would be singled out. I left it in knowing that the 90 odd percent of the rest would be ignored and the message would be overlooked in favour of an attack on the messenger. For the same reason I left out the source, knowing that any site that critices the Jewish mafioso would, de facto, be unacceptable. The usual - ignore all the points and just call it "foul-smelling" and not to be given any credence because a smidgin was by David Irving. I do not care what anyone thinks of Irving - deal with what he says. |
Well there's also the inclusion of scholarly looking historians.
The first, Liddell-Hart, who at the time was suspected of obtaining and leaking the D-Day plans. There's only one Euro Power who would have been interested in those. It was never proved until after his death, but he remained a suspect until the war was over.
Then the respectable sounding Sir Arthur Bryant who in April 1939 travelled to Nazi Germany with Major-General John Fuller and Lord Brocket to celebrate the fiftieth birthday of Adolf Hitler. And became great mates with society fascist Diane Mosley.
The other journalist reports are anecdotal - and in some cases misleading.
For instance, to take one example: "At least a quarter of full professors and instructors (at German universities) had Jewish origins." also means that 75% were not 'of Jewish origins".
Although you might not care for the connections made, using as source material a man whose 'research' and views have been discredited in open court, and who still gigs at neo-Nazi rallies is reckless in the extreme.
| blackcat wrote: | | There was an interesting interview on Alex Jones this morning with a Dr Macow (a Jew himself) who claims we are undergoing a similar process today as occurred leading to WW2 and that "Organised Jewry" as he puts it are behind the current wars and economic problems. |
Well that's his view, but to me it looks like the Anglo-American oligarchs with their beach head nation Israel providing the anchor in the Middle East and the Chinese in Sudan that are behind the current wars, which are as ever about resources which are getting scarcer.
| blackcat wrote: | | According to him he speaks for many Jews who detest these neo-cons who claim to be acting for world Jewry/Israel but who are the worst enemy that Jews could have. But why should he be allowed a view? Why don't we all just shut up and do what we are told to do, and believe what we are told to believe by Gruts et al?! Questioning of official history is forbidden!! 9/11 was carried out by 19 Arabs because they hate our "freedoms". Do not ask questions!!! |
As far as I can tell we have not (yet) been told to shut up and the prevailing orthodoxy can still be overturned. Influence, however great, is not the same as control.
| blackcat wrote: | | For the umpteenth time - I believe that Jews were systematically targetted by Hitler's Germany and murdered. I believe millions perished. I believe there was a "Holocaust". I believe anti-Semitism was rife in Germany. I want to ask WHY!!!! I want to know what caused it and who generated it. It is infantile to just say "anti-Semitism" was the reason. What was the reason for the anti-Semitism? The Germans are no different from us. What happened in Germany can happen and is happening again in the USA in particular. What the fu** is so wrong in debating it??? |
Essentially it's the the concept of the scapegoat, which in terms of 'national focus' is a simplified target that all misfortune can be projected upon.
The weakness to succumb to the demogogues who play these cards of simplistic answers to complex problems lies within our own psychology, particularly when considered en masse. As you say, what happened in Germany is not unique - not by a long shot - and could (still) happen anywhere given the right stimulation.
That in my opinion is what we need to guard against, not outside threats, Jewish or otherwise.
_________________
Dissolution of the Global Corporations.
It's the only way.
It's them or us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gruts
Major Poster
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 1050
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well as blackcat is so extremely shy about revealing where he gets his info from I found the article he posted on a blog called "news from the west".
and - surprise surprise - the archives of this blog are like an online library of Nazi propaganda, jew hatred and white supremacist claptrap (with links to the KKK and suchlike).
So it's no wonder that the article portrays the evil joooooooooooooos as being responsible for all of germany's problems while portraying germany as an innocent little lamb just trying to protect itself from these evils.
as for the references - somehow I don't think that selective quotes assembled subjectively by a blogger whose principal interests are nazi propaganda, jew hatred and white supremacism are going to tell us the whole truth about the above issues. 
sieg heil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
blackcat wrote:
| Quote: | | For the umpteenth time - I believe that Jews were systematically targetted by Hitler's Germany and murdered. I believe millions perished. I believe there was a "Holocaust". I believe anti-Semitism was rife in Germany. I want to ask WHY!!!! I want to know what caused it and who generated it. It is infantile to just say "anti-Semitism" was the reason. What was the reason for the anti-Semitism? The Germans are no different from us. What happened in Germany can happen and is happening again in the USA in particular. What the fu** is so wrong in debating it??? |
Well I'm glad you acknowledge the nazis were culpable? Atleast the question in the thread title appears to have been answered
The reason so many Germans went along with or remained silent in the face of Hitler's madness are
Propaganda and control of the media
Politicisation and co-option of the military and church
Xenophobia and racism (Germany was a racist colonial power after all)
Blind nationalism
Economic hardships
Climate of fear and persecution of political opponents
Merger of state and corporations
False flag terror and scapegoating
Etc, etc.
And many of these tools are being used again today. Which is hardly surprising since it is the same insane game.
Here's a Blue Peter guide to fascism past and present which should answer your why question.
http://www.mvp-seattle.com/Pages/pageFascism.htm
As for what is so wrong with debating WWII? Nothing provided you avoid putting words in peoples' mouths, distorting what people have actually said and calling them names (shill) whilst ignoring the offense that is inevitably caused when posters cite the words and websites of racists and white supremacists. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I want to ask WHY!!!! I want to know what caused it and who generated it. It is infantile to just say "anti-Semitism" was the reason. What was the reason for the anti-Semitism? |
Have you tried reading any of the significant amount of scholarly work devoted to this very issue? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
brian
Validated Poster
Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 611
Location: Scotland
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
blackcat, the Jews have been the subject of criticism throughout history -
What World-famous Men have said About the Jews
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/repute.htm
Given your willingness and ability to examine the big picture could you point me to the evidence that allows you to say you believe there was a Holocaust?
I have asked your atteckers and detractors but evidence it seems is not their way of dealing with legitimate questions.
I have seen none that leads me to believe the holocaust as we know it is not as monumental a lie as Sept 11 is.
I note it seems all right to mention the holocaust in the affirmative. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | The state of German armament in 1939 gives the decisive proof that Hitler was not contemplating general war, and probably not intending war at all” (p.267), and “Even in 1939 the German army was not equipped for a prolonged war; and in 1940 the German land forces were inferior to the French in everything except leadership” (p104-5). What occurred in Europe in 1939-41 was the result of unforeseen weaknesses and a tipping of the balance of power, and Hitler was an opportunist ‘who took advantages whenever they offered themselves’ |
Ooh look - it omits the well known fact that this was because Hitler knew that Germany would be better prepared for war by the 1940s. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Well as blackcat is so extremely shy about revealing where he gets his info from I found the article he posted on a blog called "news from the west". |
Incorrect. Maybe more than one site posts it Sherlock. But of course if you can find a site that allows you to ignore the content and shoot the messenger that's all part of your game. You say the extracts are out of context yet offer no explanation - but then again anyone who asks questions is automatically a Joooo bashing, holocaust denying Nazi sympather so they can safely be denigrated because you have it all wrapped up.
| Ian Neal wrote: | | Well I'm glad you acknowledge the nazis were culpable? |
And not for the first time to one of these intolerant German hating propagandists whose function on this site is to play the race card at every opportunity.
| Quote: | | As for what is so wrong with debating WWII? Nothing provided you avoid putting words in peoples' mouths, distorting what people have actually said and calling them names (shill) whilst ignoring the offense that is inevitably caused when posters cite the words and websites of racists and white supremacists. |
The name-calling began when Gruts alleged I was a holocaust denier. He has all the hallmarks of a shill so I am happy to restate that. He has avoided answering any of the assertions in that post I made and assumed that simply by posting it I am a Joooo basher. He has sought to associate the post with Jooo bashing so as to avoid any debate which is the usual ploy of his kind. The notion that he could be a supporter of 9/11 truth with his attitude is laughable. I still have no idea what the Germans were doing turning on the Jews and I would have liked a debate to try to understand the mechanics of it so as to try to understand the rise of Fascism in the USA today. What a pile of drivel to automatically stifle any questioning of any history by accusing the questioner of being beyond the pale for even asking.
| Quote: | | the offense that is inevitably caused when posters cite the words and websites of racists and white supremacists. |
There you go again. Are you seriously saying those people were all rascists and white supremacists? FFS!! In any case defeat them with argument!!! As for your patronising "Blue Peter Guide" you know where you can stick that.
_________________
"The conflict between corporations and activists is that of narcolepsy versus remembrance. The corporations have money, power and influence. Our sole influence is public outrage. Extract from "Cloud Atlas (page 125) by David Mitchell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I guess it's just unhappy accident and bad luck that aligns you with the racist* (*discriminatory on the basis of race or religion) scum and knuckledraggers then, eh brian?
| brian wrote: | | I have asked your atteckers and detractors but evidence it seems is not their way of dealing with legitimate questions.. |
Atteckers? That's Edinburgh posh in't it? But anyway, just like the no-planes crew as many previous threads have bourne out, and like any common or garden zealot, you refuse to countenance evidence that doesn't conform to your belief.
| brian wrote: | | I have seen none that leads me to believe the holocaust as we know it is not as monumental a lie as Sept 11 is. |
I dunno what one has to do with the other (despite your best efforts). Santa Claus might well be a bigger lie.
| brian wrote: | | I note it seems all right to mention the holocaust in the affirmative. |
Yeah, it's a dead give away and implicit in the 'denier' description.
_________________
Dissolution of the Global Corporations.
It's the only way.
It's them or us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
|
| Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Brian may be interested to learn that you can find web pages saying what world famous men have said about Black people too.
Indeed, Blackbear's Michael Walsh does one.
(Though it doesn't feature on Biblebeliever's limited use of everyone's favourite Nazi)
| blackcat wrote: | | Incorrect. Maybe more than one site posts it Sherlock. But of course if you can find a site that allows you to ignore the content and shoot the messenger that's all part of your game. |
Always a bit strange when people omit to link to their web based sources though, eh?
Particularly when they are such poo.
I mean really
| Quote: | | The London Daily Express on March 24, 1933 carried the headline Judea Declares War on Germany. The boycott was particularly motivated by the German imposition of the Nuremberg Laws |
So the 1933 boycott was "particularly motivated" by laws introduced in 1935 then? You trust "sources" that don't even have a grasp of basic chronology? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Chat
Usergroups
Calendar
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
