Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: Transition Towns - Let's discuss
Recently I was invited to a local meeting regarding the foundation of a transition towns group for Malvern
I knew a little about the movement, and a lot more about Peak Oil. I knew that Ian Crane debated Rob Hopkins on Radio Glastonbury earlier this year, I listened to the first half of their debate, and I found that although I felt I understood Ian's arguments and understood where he was coming from, none of them were enough for me to consider dismissing taking Peak Oil as a highly probable reality was the responsible course of action and thats still my view
I'm also aware of the pov that Oil prices are being manipulated as part of ongoing global control, and I consider that highly likely to be true, and dont defacto consider high oil prices now as proof of an Oil Peak. But neither of these perspectives removes for me that sense of Planetary Responsibity, that I suppose says to me that whether the right thing appears to be desirable to ones "enemies" or not, the right thing to do IS the right thing to do
Thats why I am currently considering getting further involved with Transition Towns in my community
I've been doing further research, so far I've not found a great deal of Video material, but there is some. Heres an example:
Quote:
TRANSITION TOWNS: An Interview with Rob Hopkins
The founder of a growing movement shows us around 'Transition Town Totnes' in Devon and talks about peak oil, the origin of the Transition Towns concept and how to help your community develop an 'energy descent plan' and prepare to 'power down.'
Transition Towns envisage communities being changed 'under the old rules' and backed up by the pack of lies that we know are being peddled by the NWO. The basic premise of a community becoming a real community again, becoming more self -reliant, growing more of its own food locally using sustainable, organic methods, generating more of its own energy requirements and breaking away from the consumer mad (NWO engineered) 'rat race' so that people have more time to 'live', sounds and is marvellous. However, 'Peak Oil' is being peddled by the elite at this time for their own agenda as is CO2 man-made global warming (bottom line....Do you trust Al Gore and think he is a decent man not capable of practising deceit?).
No, the answer is to go for TRUTH TRANSITION TOWNS - basically as they are being envisaged at the moment but harnessing suppressed technologies (Tesla, Marconi etc), exploring the truth about our so-called 'reality' (cutting edge Quantum Physics etc) and understanding how the NWO's agenda operates so that we can defeat them non-violently by simply refusing to play their game (banking, conventional jobs etc etc). _________________ Connect to Infinite Consciousness - enjoy the ride!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: Transition Town & Intellectual Honesty
Transition Town - Part of the solution?
Many hundreds of man-hours are being invested in preparation for a hypothetical situation that is extremely unlikely to occur any time in the forseeable future. Why are so many people being 'focused' on a hypothetical scenario when there are other, more tangible threats to our Communities? The ethos of Transition Town is internally focused, yet global legislation is currently being drawn up, which will potentially 'flush away' the local initiatives that TT is driving forward.
Is there more to 'Transition Town' than is currently being disclosed ... or is it simply a case of well-meaning ecologists dreaming of sustainable community while being oblivious to the geo-political realities. E.g. Codex Alimentarius and the GMO agenda
This concern is exacerbated by Rob Hopkins (founder and self-appointed leader of the Transition Town initiative) absolute refusal to acknowledge the significance of Codex Alimentarius, as evidenced by his comments in the final few minutes of the Glastonbury Radio debate.
Only time ... and a greater regard for intellectual transparency ... will tell.
In 2005, I attended a presentation by Naresh Giangrande (Rob Hopkins sidekick) on 'Peak Oil'. The presentation incorporated the standard Campbell/Simmons/Ruppert hypothesis on 'Peak Oil' but was presented as FACT. During the Q&A session, it became apparent that Naresh possessed limited oilfield knowledge. At the end of the evening, I approached Naresh and suggested that perhaps the issue of 'Peak Oil' should be opened up for debate. He declined the invitation. Subsequent suggestion, to both Naresh Giangrande & Rob Hopkins, that the issue be debated publicly were rejected.
Over the next two years Transition Town trotted out a series of 'Peak Oil' protagonists (not an oil industry representative amongst them), to promote the eschatological scenario of a world without oil.
Eventually, Changing Times, a Lewes based organisation who focus on providing a vehicle for questioning received wisdom, arranged the debate that Transition Town Totnes had successfully avoided for the previous two years.
In the aftermath of the Lewes debate, I tried once again, to encourage the Transition Town founder, Rob Hopkins, to participate in a similar event, so that the population of Totnes may have the opportunity to hear an alternative view on the issue of 'Peak Oil'.
The following Email was sent to Rob Hopkins (cc: Naresh Giangrande) on Friday 14th September 2007.
Quote:
Hi Rob,
I believe it is now more than two years since I first broached the proposal of a public debate with either yourself (or Naresh) on the subject of Peak Oil. Although the basic premise of TT philosophy is based upon “an understanding of Peak Oil and Climate Change as twin drivers …”, you have (perhaps understandably) been reluctant to acknowledge the validity of counter proposition. However, I am sure that you will be aware of my participation in the recent Peak Oil debate, hosted by Changing Times, in Lewes, Sussex, on Tuesday September 4th.
Mike Grenville, representing the Transition Town Community, made some very interesting comments and observations during the course of the evening but it was very apparent that some of the information which I presented was new (by his own admission) to at least one of the three TT members who had come along in support of Mike. It was interesting, if rather surprising, to learn that, according to the event organisers, both Mike Grenville and the Lewes TT community had elected not to promote awareness of this debate, either on their respective websites or via their respective mailing lists. If this is the case, it is really quite startling and raises the question as to whether those who actively seek to promote the hypothesis of Peak Oil are wary of their hypotheses being placed under scrutiny!
As Lewes is but a satellite of the Totnes initiative, it would seem most pertinent to continue this debate in Totnes. Consequently, I propose to hold a similar event in Totnes on the evening of Friday 18th October at St. John’s Church, Bridgetown. As prime movers in the TT movement, I would like to invite either yourself or Naresh to present the case for Peak Oil; I would then present the counter view.
If either of you are unable to participate in this event, perhaps you would like to recommend an alternative Peak Oil or TT campaigner to present the case for Peak Oil.
Please do not hesitate to contact me, if you would like to discuss the proposition further.
Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing from you.
The exchange of Emails which followed this invitation ... speak volumes!
It should also be noted that Rob Hopkins banned me from posting on his Blog immediately after the Glastonbury Radio debate, spreading the word that I was attacking him! In reality, I was asking the hard questions and pointing out the self-harm that Rob was potentially inflicting by his dogmatic stance on his 'Twin Drivers' of Peak Oil and anthropogenic Climate Change. I have expressed my preference for all Email exchanges bewteen myself and Rob Hopkins to be posted in the public domain ... but strangely enough he seems reluctant for his responses to be subjected to public scrutiny.
As I have stated on many occasions, I absolutely support many of the Transition Town initiatives but until such time as the TT leadership are prepared to come out from behind their totalitarian stance (disguised as 'non-confrontational' politics), and acknowledge the imperative of stepping beyond the simplistic ideology of 'Thinking and Acting Locally ... to the exclusion of all else, I will continue to question the role and integrity of the Transition Town agenda.
By the way, I am not alone in experiencing the full-force of the Transition Town 'attack dogs', for questioning the TT dogma. Ross Hemsworth of Glastonbury Radio and Andy Thomas in Lewes have both been subjected to vitriol for daring to question the TT dogma. Don't forget that the Transition Initiative Group have gone corporate and Rob Hopkins was recently quoted in The Guardian as saying "It's like a racehorse owner cheering his horse. The things I want to see happen only happen in times of high oil prices..."
What exactly does Rob Hopkins want to see happen? Well, if you attend one of Rob presentations, you could be forgiven for perceiving that his ideal 'sustainable society' bears a remarkable resemblence to fuedalism. He is quick to dismiss alternative technologies and seems content with returning to a pre-industrial revolution type existence.
One major concern is that this dogma is now being presented in schools ... as fact! Of course, we need to move the world away from burning 90million barrels of hydro-carbons every single day ... but our best hope of doing this is to encourage the intellectual and scientific curiosity of the younger generation ... not by going into schools and telling them that they're f*cked, 'cos their parents and grandparents lacked the ingenuity to move beyond the age of oil ... so their best hope is to start learning how to plough fields with horses!
Rob Hopkins is too young to remember the last Kissinger induced 'Oil Crisis' of 1973/74; however, a few minutes research would enable any interested party to realise that Kissinger took the opportunity to tag on a 'global food crisis'. Back then the agenda was to destroy the American family farmer and allow the embryonic agri-business to make a (successful) Land-Grab.
The contrived 'Food Crisis' being tagged on to the current 'Oil Crisis' is all about the introduction of GMO. Meanwhile Transition Town is keeping people's eye's off the bigger picture by focusing on planting nut trees.
The potential of Transition Town is enormous but until such time as the TT leadership demonstrates a willingness to research the bigger picture and open their philosophy to wider scrutiny, this 'non-confrontational' top-down community organisation will not be part of the longer term solution ... indeed, it may even become part of the problem!
They are being hyped on "The Archers", reason enough to distrust the idea. _________________ If you want to know who is really in control, ask yourself who you cannot criticise.
"The hunt for 'anti-semites' is a hunt for pockets of resistance to the NWO"-- Israel Shamir
"What we in America call terrorists are really groups of people that reject the international system..." - Heinz "Henry" Kissinger
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:36 am Post subject:
Justin wrote:
Transition Towns envisage communities being changed 'under the old rules' and backed up by the pack of lies that we know are being peddled by the NWO. The basic premise of a community becoming a real community again, becoming more self -reliant, growing more of its own food locally using sustainable, organic methods, generating more of its own energy requirements and breaking away from the consumer mad (NWO engineered) 'rat race' so that people have more time to 'live', sounds and is marvellous. However, 'Peak Oil' is being peddled by the elite at this time for their own agenda as is CO2 man-made global warming (bottom line....Do you trust Al Gore and think he is a decent man not capable of practising deceit?).
No, the answer is to go for TRUTH TRANSITION TOWNS - basically as they are being envisaged at the moment but harnessing suppressed technologies (Tesla, Marconi etc), exploring the truth about our so-called 'reality' (cutting edge Quantum Physics etc) and understanding how the NWO's agenda operates so that we can defeat them non-violently by simply refusing to play their game (banking, conventional jobs etc etc).
Well Justin my basic premise is that the Elites manipulate the Real for their own advantage wherever and whenever possible. Marxism expolited the injustice of the working masses, Feminism exploited the injustice of Women's slavery, and the modern elite are exploiting Man's degredation of the environment and ravaging of finite resources. They do this with the same motivation everytime: FEAR: Fear of losing their power
But the reverse of that is that whatever buggering about the elite cabals get up to, they are never going to lose their power until we take it back: that means we have to get involved somehow, sometime. I'm also of the view that there have been shifts in the public consciousness this year catalysed by elite manipulations of Oil prices that are creating real opportunities now.
Hasnt 9/11 Truth taken something the Elite created (9/11) and used it to create something that works against their purpose? I certainly think it has: I see no difference there between 9/11 Truth and the potential of the Transition movement. Becuase if we get involved then we can put out the energy of Truth Transition, as you call it, and when peoples creativity is really accessed, then we have real opportunites to make those dreams real that we arnt going to get any other way
My View of Transistion towns is not based on what I think of Al Gore, or Rob Hopkins. For one thing becuase the character of someone presenting a POV does not defacto invalidate that POV, for another becuase I dont need a Guru thanks. But it is based on the people in my community, their skills, their talents, their willingness to get involved and make a difference, becuase there are the people I live in community with eeryday, these are the people I need to help make that difference, and there wont be a difference without them... and I can report they are far from niave about the manipulation of the environmental movemement by Elites, and open to 9/11 truth too... _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Transition Town & Intellectual Honesty
Hi Ian, Ill respond to your points by breaking your post down a little in the seperate questions I see
ianrcrane wrote:
Transition Town - Part of the solution?
Many hundreds of man-hours are being invested in preparation for a hypothetical situation that is extremely unlikely to occur any time in the forseeable future. Why are so many people being 'focused' on a hypothetical scenario when there are other, more tangible threats to our Communities? The ethos of Transition Town is internally focused, yet global legislation is currently being drawn up, which will potentially 'flush away' the local initiatives that TT is driving forward.
Well the "unlikely to occur" (Peak Oil) aspect is your personal POV: thats fair enough I fully respect that. Of course simply becuase you believe you are right doesnt mean you are right, and the same for me or anyone else, and I havnt seen anything strong enough to make me dismiss Peak Oil as a scenario with a strong possibility of being right. Yes of course we know that globalisation threatens to drive all over communities regardless of any Change produced by Transition Towns: but it would drive over those communites anyway especially if there arnt local projects like transition towns to at least be putting out the message that there are other ways. In that sense, Transition Towns are decidely ANTI- globalisation
Quote:
Is there more to 'Transition Town' than is currently being disclosed ... or is it simply a case of well-meaning ecologists dreaming of sustainable community while being oblivious to the geo-political realities. E.g. Codex Alimentarius and the GMO agenda
When is there ever not? And absolutely the Elite want to push GMO as the solution to the food crisis their petrochemical agriculture has created. Recently Nigel Lawson has been shilling for that with his attacks on the environmental movemment. But the food crisis is NOT a fantasy: its about a real a problem as any humanity faces. Food (and water) are the most essential problems humanity can face. And there is no doubt Transistion towns is pushing for the permaculture local agriculture solution to the food problem. Now we can see that as a call for the return of feudalism (as if we dont have a modified form of feudalism now, last I checked we still have an aristocracy in the UK) , but equally: its a real solution to the food problem, and whether we have fuedalism or any other form of government is up to us: we still need the food however society is structured
Quote:
This concern is exacerbated by Rob Hopkins (founder and self-appointed leader of the Transition Town initiative) absolute refusal to acknowledge the significance of Codex Alimentarius, as evidenced by his comments in the final few minutes of the Glastonbury Radio debate.
Only time ... and a greater regard for intellectual transparency ... will tell.
In 2005, I attended a presentation by Naresh Giangrande (Rob Hopkins sidekick) on 'Peak Oil'. The presentation incorporated the standard Campbell/Simmons/Ruppert hypothesis on 'Peak Oil' but was presented as FACT. During the Q&A session, it became apparent that Naresh possessed limited oilfield knowledge. At the end of the evening, I approached Naresh and suggested that perhaps the issue of 'Peak Oil' should be opened up for debate. He declined the invitation. Subsequent suggestion, to both Naresh Giangrande & Rob Hopkins, that the issue be debated publicly were rejected.
Over the next two years Transition Town trotted out a series of 'Peak Oil' protagonists (not an oil industry representative amongst them), to promote the eschatological scenario of a world without oil.
Eventually, Changing Times, a Lewes based organisation who focus on providing a vehicle for questioning received wisdom, arranged the debate that Transition Town Totnes had successfully avoided for the previous two years.
In the aftermath of the Lewes debate, I tried once again, to encourage the Transition Town founder, Rob Hopkins, to participate in a similar event, so that the population of Totnes may have the opportunity to hear an alternative view on the issue of 'Peak Oil'.
The following Email was sent to Rob Hopkins (cc: Naresh Giangrande) on Friday 14th September 2007.
Quote:
Hi Rob,
I believe it is now more than two years since I first broached the proposal of a public debate with either yourself (or Naresh) on the subject of Peak Oil. Although the basic premise of TT philosophy is based upon “an understanding of Peak Oil and Climate Change as twin drivers …”, you have (perhaps understandably) been reluctant to acknowledge the validity of counter proposition. However, I am sure that you will be aware of my participation in the recent Peak Oil debate, hosted by Changing Times, in Lewes, Sussex, on Tuesday September 4th.
Mike Grenville, representing the Transition Town Community, made some very interesting comments and observations during the course of the evening but it was very apparent that some of the information which I presented was new (by his own admission) to at least one of the three TT members who had come along in support of Mike. It was interesting, if rather surprising, to learn that, according to the event organisers, both Mike Grenville and the Lewes TT community had elected not to promote awareness of this debate, either on their respective websites or via their respective mailing lists. If this is the case, it is really quite startling and raises the question as to whether those who actively seek to promote the hypothesis of Peak Oil are wary of their hypotheses being placed under scrutiny!
As Lewes is but a satellite of the Totnes initiative, it would seem most pertinent to continue this debate in Totnes. Consequently, I propose to hold a similar event in Totnes on the evening of Friday 18th October at St. John’s Church, Bridgetown. As prime movers in the TT movement, I would like to invite either yourself or Naresh to present the case for Peak Oil; I would then present the counter view.
If either of you are unable to participate in this event, perhaps you would like to recommend an alternative Peak Oil or TT campaigner to present the case for Peak Oil.
Please do not hesitate to contact me, if you would like to discuss the proposition further.
Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing from you.
The exchange of Emails which followed this invitation ... speak volumes!
It should also be noted that Rob Hopkins banned me from posting on his Blog immediately after the Glastonbury Radio debate, spreading the word that I was attacking him! In reality, I was asking the hard questions and pointing out the self-harm that Rob was potentially inflicting by his dogmatic stance on his 'Twin Drivers' of Peak Oil and anthropogenic Climate Change. I have expressed my preference for all Email exchanges bewteen myself and Rob Hopkins to be posted in the public domain ... but strangely enough he seems reluctant for his responses to be subjected to public scrutiny.
Well this all seems very human to me Ian. I no more expect sainthood out of Rob Hopkins than I do out of you Ian. All humans defend their sense of reality. Is Rob Hopkins an impassioned campaigner who has seen his cause and is using the issues that support his beliefs? Well YES HE IS
ALL campaigners do that, 9/11 Truth campaingers included. It is the nature of campainging: it includes a degree of bloody minded slogging on through all objections
But i dont look at things like that: the pragmatist in me wont allow me to. I simply look at anyone else point of view, whether they are a "conspiracy theorist" or an "eco campaigner" or a "proffesional politician" and support what I agree with and permit difference where I do not. I cant see how someone doing their own thinking can do anything else
Quote:
Quote:
As I have stated on many occasions, I absolutely support many of the Transition Town initiatives but until such time as the TT leadership are prepared to come out from behind their totalitarian stance (disguised as 'non-confrontational' politics), and acknowledge the imperative of stepping beyond the simplistic ideology of 'Thinking and Acting Locally ... to the exclusion of all else, I will continue to question the role and integrity of the Transition Town agenda.
By the way, I am not alone in experiencing the full-force of the Transition Town 'attack dogs', for questioning the TT dogma. Ross Hemsworth of Glastonbury Radio and Andy Thomas in Lewes have both been subjected to vitriol for daring to question the TT dogma. Don't forget that the Transition Initiative Group have gone corporate and Rob Hopkins was recently quoted in The Guardian as saying "It's like a racehorse owner cheering his horse. The things I want to see happen only happen in times of high oil prices..."
What exactly does Rob Hopkins want to see happen? Well, if you attend one of Rob presentations, you could be forgiven for perceiving that his ideal 'sustainable society' bears a remarkable resemblence to fuedalism. He is quick to dismiss alternative technologies and seems content with returning to a pre-industrial revolution type existence.
One major concern is that this dogma is now being presented in schools ... as fact! Of course, we need to move the world away from burning 90million barrels of hydro-carbons every single day ... but our best hope of doing this is to encourage the intellectual and scientific curiosity of the younger generation ... not by going into schools and telling them that they're f*cked, 'cos their parents and grandparents lacked the ingenuity to move beyond the age of oil ... so their best hope is to start learning how to plough fields with horses!
Rob Hopkins is too young to remember the last Kissinger induced 'Oil Crisis' of 1973/74; however, a few minutes research would enable any interested party to realise that Kissinger took the opportunity to tag on a 'global food crisis'. Back then the agenda was to destroy the American family farmer and allow the embryonic agri-business to make a (successful) Land-Grab.
The contrived 'Food Crisis' being tagged on to the current 'Oil Crisis' is all about the introduction of GMO. Meanwhile Transition Town is keeping people's eye's off the bigger picture by focusing on planting nut trees.
The potential of Transition Town is enormous but until such time as the TT leadership demonstrates a willingness to research the bigger picture and open their philosophy to wider scrutiny, this 'non-confrontational' top-down community organisation will not be part of the longer term solution ... indeed, it may even become part of the problem!
Ian R. Crane
Then it would seem to me Ian that the best thing to do is to get involved and support what you support. From what I have seen of the Transition movement so far, although it certainly has the potential to be "corporatised" in the way you outline it certainly isnt yet, and its concern with unleshing the energy and creativity of the individual is exactly what I have been calling for on the net ever since I started calling for something. If Transistion Towns becomes overtaken by dogma, its a simple matter to withdraw ones energy from it and re-apply it, same as anything else, and that has to balanced against the trade off of being paralyised from action by ones doubts of what something might be when finding the best course of action to follow
I'm also not especially moved to be concerned about young people being educated with the Transistion Towns POV. We'd all love the opportunity to educate the young with what we believe to be relevant and true, so I can't begrudge those who've had succes in doing so through Transistion Towns. I'm sure we'd all be happy to educate the young in 9/11 truth, and 9/11 Truth sceptics would be very frightened by that if we could
Undoubtably there is sophisticated strategising behind the actions carried out by Transition Town groups. Thats not a problem either: its an opportunity for study and learning
In the video interview I linked in the opening post Rob Hopkins relates an example of an out-of-town development that was stopped with a letter campaign written as if the year was 2030 detailing how the town had been regnerated following a succesful trial Transition project built on the same land and it all came down to that key decision in 2008
Now thats a lot more effective than banners saying "Fook Off Tescos"
Is that way of thinking a problem or an opportunity? _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: TT and Community
Hi John,
firstly, let me categorically state that I have never claimed to be 'right' about anything. As anyone who has attended any of my presentations will vouch, I always make an impassioned plea for people not to take anything that I say at face value. I simply sow the seeds and encourage people to seek out their own truth.
My point is that the Transition Town leadership will not permit any debate on their dogma of 'Peak Oil' and 'Anthropogenic Climate change'. Yet they are either wittingly or unwittingly being highly selective with the facts when presenting the alleged 'Big Oil' conspiracy of silence on 'Peak Oil'.
Indeed the first point of the TT twelve point plan is that potential Transition Towns must buy into the TT dogma of 'Peak Oil' and 'MMCC' ... no discussion!
For an example of the TT leadership resisting any 'Community Driven Initiative', one need look no further than a recent event hosted by a member of Transition Town Glastonbury, to raise awareness of the potential impact of imminent EU legislation, which will serve to undermine much of the TT agenda. This event was attended by a number of TT members but the most vociferous antagonist at this meeting was a member of the TT Core Group... claiming that Codex Alimentarius is a 'conspiracy theory' and 'scare-mongering'!
Such a reaction, against an initiative from a member of the local TT community, does not demonstrate a willingness to practice the alleged tenets of a 'Community Driven' agenda.
TT preaches openess and uses such phraseology as 'Heart & Soul' and 'Open Forums' but increasing people are reporting that these events are only open to recieve thoughts and views of those who buy into the TT dogma of 'Peak Oil' and MMCC.
The issue is not about anyone being 'right', it is about intellectual, emotional and spiritual integrity. Values that are apparently embraced by the TT community only if you buy-in to their particular world view. Transtion Town has demonstrated in Totnes, Glastonbury and Lewes that it is far from being 'inclusive'. Indeed, in each of these communities TT is becoming increasingly divisive, as Ross Hemsworth and Andy Thomas can vouch.
As for the view of the future, see below an article which was published last September, which illustrates why I am seriously concerned by the internal focus of the TT agenda.
Quote:
From Concep$ion to D£ath : A Reflection from 2030
"Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand" - Bodie Thoene
It is almost fifteen years now since organic food disappeared from the supermarkets and ten years since it became illegal for farmers to declare their produce as ‘Organic’, under pain of having their farms confiscated by the recently established North Atlantic Union, an amalgamation of the amalgamation of the EU and North American Union.
The President of the NAU is appointed by the Corporate Council, a body of ‘elders’ whose every decision is dictated by the industrial/military/Agri-pharma complex.
Monsanto have just announced that they now own every seed and plant remaining on the planet. The last remaining natural seeds being destroyed in the ‘accidental’ release of a pernicious DDT derivative that wiped-out the last bastions of natural farming.
The lack of nutrition in the GM foods, coupled with the abolition of the Complementary and Alternative Healthcare industry, has led to a whole host of new debilitating illness & disease. A situation which has resulted in the Pharmaceutical companies reporting record profits, as more and more drugs are developed to fight illness & disease brought about by a diet of GM and processed food. Addiction to prescribed drugs at birth is becoming an increasingly common condition.
How did we ever get into this situation? Well, the history books tell us that in 2009, the first EU President, Tony Blair, signed a piece of legislation called Codex Alimentarius; paving the way for the likes of Monsanto and Big Pharma to begin the process of abolishing organic farming and marginalizing the Complementary & Natural Health Community.
“Why didn’t anyone try to stop Codex Alimentarius from being implemented?” I hear you ask. This is a very good question and one that still baffles people today. Records show that alternative communities like Totnes & Glastonbury were given the opportunity to attend talks and conferences on the subject but there was great apathy.
One report states that when Complementary & Alternative Health Practitioners were told about the imminent threat of Codex Alimentarius, they responded by saying things like, “ No way – they’ll never do anything like that!” or “Oh, that’s so negative … I just don’t give it the energy.”
By 1st January 2010, it was all over. What had become known as the ‘Totnes Bubble’ was well and truly burst. People across the Country took to the streets in their hundreds of thousands as the full realisation hit home … but it was too little, too late. If only the Organic Farmers, Complementary and Alternative Health Industry & Transition Town Communities had united behind the leadership of the Alliance for Natural Health, to fight the implementation of Codex Alimentarius, things might be rather different today. If only …..
For more information on the work of the Alliance for Natural Health, visit: www.anhcampaign.org
This article was originally published in the November 2007 edition of Breathing Space Magazine
I think we all want to see genuine communities restored and for people to be in command of the essentials that affect them. Urban life, which the overwhelming majority of the population has to contend with, has real challenges ahead of it. As a strong advocate of green economics, I believe the the Transition Town concept is broadly right and something to be pursued for the sake of those urban communities. But....
Quote:
Well this all seems very human to me Ian. I no more expect sainthood out of Rob Hopkins than I do out of you Ian. All humans defend their sense of reality. Is Rob Hopkins an impassioned campaigner who has seen his cause and is using the issues that support his beliefs? Well YES HE IS
.....I feel that if the current initiative is not based on transparency, openess and, above all else, honesty, then it is doomed to failure. The concept of 'Truth' is becoming increasingly more powerful and those who shirk their responsibilities to debate freely with open minds, whilst claiming a divine right to be the leaders of this movement, must be strongly advised that they are going down the wrong path.
I have spent my life, especially during the last fifteen years, doing 'U' turns as I was faced with new realities and evidence. For example, I was a passionate defender of the United Nations, believing it to be a force for total good. Having worked for a while with those on the inside and being privileged to see certain information, I now know that this is most certainly not the case and that it is designed deliberately not to work properly...and in some cases to fail completely...whilst adhering to the NWO agenda. What I'm saying is, if Rob Hopkins addresses Ian's points and arguments in a positive, open and honest way, and allows real debate on his forum rather than censorship, then his initiative becomes that more credible. Until then this initiative is unfortunately flawed and I am genuinely saddened by this.
Regards
Justin _________________ Connect to Infinite Consciousness - enjoy the ride!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Transition Towns
Justin wrote:
if the current initiative is not based on transparency, openess and, above all else, honesty, then it is doomed to failure. ... if Rob Hopkins addresses Ian's points and arguments in a positive, open and honest way, and allows real debate on his forum rather than censorship, then his initiative becomes that more credible. Until then this initiative is unfortunately flawed and I am genuinely saddened by this.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject:
Justin wrote:
.....I feel that if the current initiative is not based on transparency, openess and, above all else, honesty, then it is doomed to failure.
Well I agree with that Justin. But I'm allowing for the "what if" factor of "what if" Peak Oil is not a sound POV still allowing that being involved with something like Transition towns is preferable to not being involved, if for nothing else than learning what it has got right and taking that on board with other projects
Malvern Messages, for example, is completely independant of Malvern Transition, or Malvern Greenpeace, or any other local group I might get involved in and will continue to look "deeper down the rabbit hole" whatever Malvern Transistion does or does not do accept or endorse. And if it came to a choice of modifying Malvern Messages to fit in with Malvern Transition, then Malvern Messages would win out. But I'll still support Transistion where I'm in agreement with it
Quote:
What I'm saying is, if Rob Hopkins addresses Ian's points and arguments in a positive, open and honest way, and allows real debate on his forum rather than censorship, then his initiative becomes that more credible. Until then this initiative is unfortunately flawed and I am genuinely saddened by this.
Well you could look at it like that. Or you could look at it as evidence that Rob Hopkins is a human with an ego just like the rest of us and lacks the qualities to run a true free speach truthseeking website. But then even the best of us are simply doing the best we can with that, and the perception of failure of Rob Hopkins regarding openess of net debate does not defacto invalidate his views or pronounce a movement to be flawed when it contains so many diverse individuals: no more than (to pick a single effective example from many many) Dave Shayler supporting TV fakery invalidates 9/11 Truth: some of us even agree with him! _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
I listened to Ian Crane's debate with Mike Grenville, and I have looked at his "Transition Town Watch" blog and all it did was to further convince me that the Transition Initiative is a positive movement...
There is no dispute that the Transition Town concept has many positive attributes ... the concerns being raised are in regard to the willingness and/or ability of an increasingly high profile, emerging political community to embrace intellectual and emotional transparency.
The current Transition Town demeanour is more along the lines of, '... you're either with us, or .... !'
Sound familiar?
The process of open debate is critical to wider understanding yet the TT modus operandi appears to be about total commitment to an internal focus, based upon a narrow dogma, whilst discouraging anyone from looking at the bigger picture.
Codex Alimentarius is the most significant case in point, yet Rob Hopkins has written that any suggestion of Transition Town taking the codex issue on board is (and I quote) '... frankly, a joke.'
Is this the response and/or reaction one should expect of a community leader, heading up an organisation presented as 'Community driven'?
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: TT and Community
ianrcrane wrote:
Hi John,
firstly, let me categorically state that I have never claimed to be 'right' about anything. As anyone who has attended any of my presentations will vouch, I always make an impassioned plea for people not to take anything that I say at face value. I simply sow the seeds and encourage people to seek out their own truth.
Of course Ian, and I certainly dont mean to imply otherwise. I follow your advice and give the same advice for all my own output
Quote:
My point is that the Transition Town leadership will not permit any debate on their dogma of 'Peak Oil' and 'Anthropogenic Climate change'. Yet they are either wittingly or unwittingly being highly selective with the facts when presenting the alleged 'Big Oil' conspiracy of silence on 'Peak Oil'.
Understood
Quote:
Indeed the first point of the TT twelve point plan is that potential Transition Towns must buy into the TT dogma of 'Peak Oil' and 'MMCC' ... no discussion!
Its certainly the truth that the foundation of the Transistion Towns movement is based on the starting point of accepting the Peak Oil argument. I dont think I'd characterise that as a dogma though: its simply the starting point. All thigns start somewhere
Quote:
For an example of the TT leadership resisting any 'Community Driven Initiative', one need look no further than a recent event hosted by a member of Transition Town Glastonbury, to raise awareness of the potential impact of imminent EU legislation, which will serve to undermine much of the TT agenda. This event was attended by a number of TT members but the most vociferous antagonist at this meeting was a member of the TT Core Group... claiming that Codex Alimentarius is a 'conspiracy theory' and 'scare-mongering'!
Well thats not very suprising though is it? Thats no different than a Stop The War colalition meeting having its chairs say 9/11 truth is a load of b/s conspiracy scaremongering... that kind of official doubt is outside their paradigm. But this kind of pattern of thinking is not exactly new. Stop the War may not allow 9/11 Truth an easy platform on its ticket, but thats hardly stopped 9/11 Truth finding platforms... the same is true for Codex Alimentarius... if the info is sound it WILL find purchase... and it certainly doesnt stop you doing presentations on Codex Alimentarius. Heck I've got no special love for NO2ID becuase they supress information on survaillance technology, becuase talk of microchips in people is "conspiracy theory", but I'll still accept the group does a fair amount more good than harm, and I'm even informed that privately theres a lot of agreement even though they close public debate for appearances. Not the sort of compromise I like to get caught up in, but still a fact of altering consensus reality that we have to cope with this kind of stuff going on
Quote:
Such a reaction, against an initiative from a member of the local TT community, does not demonstrate a willingness to practice the alleged tenets of a 'Community Driven' agenda.
Well yes, but its also AN member. Focusing too much on that seems to me to be counterproductive and a barrier to reaching all the other members who have their own minds and POV's
Quote:
TT preaches openess and uses such phraseology as 'Heart & Soul' and 'Open Forums' but increasing people are reporting that these events are only open to recieve thoughts and views of those who buy into the TT dogma of 'Peak Oil' and MMCC.
The issue is not about anyone being 'right', it is about intellectual, emotional and spiritual integrity. Values that are apparently embraced by the TT community only if you buy-in to their particular world view. Transtion Town has demonstrated in Totnes, Glastonbury and Lewes that it is far from being 'inclusive'. Indeed, in each of these communities TT is becoming increasingly divisive, as Ross Hemsworth and Andy Thomas can vouch.
But this is simply local groups and the psychology of human organisation. Cliques form and judgements get made, certain people throw their weight around, either this is challenged and the situation is balanced or the gorup falls apart. These are simply obsticals to be overcome whenever and wherever people orgnaise together. And the failure of individuals to embody and reflect values does not make the values invalid... its a call to re-double efforts on behalf of those values instead
Quote:
As for the view of the future, see below an article which was published last September, which illustrates why I am seriously concerned by the internal focus of the TT agenda.
Quote:
From Concep$ion to D£ath : A Reflection from 2030
"Apathy is the glove into which evil slips its hand" - Bodie Thoene
It is almost fifteen years now since organic food disappeared from the supermarkets and ten years since it became illegal for farmers to declare their produce as ‘Organic’, under pain of having their farms confiscated by the recently established North Atlantic Union, an amalgamation of the amalgamation of the EU and North American Union.
The President of the NAU is appointed by the Corporate Council, a body of ‘elders’ whose every decision is dictated by the industrial/military/Agri-pharma complex.
Monsanto have just announced that they now own every seed and plant remaining on the planet. The last remaining natural seeds being destroyed in the ‘accidental’ release of a pernicious DDT derivative that wiped-out the last bastions of natural farming.
The lack of nutrition in the GM foods, coupled with the abolition of the Complementary and Alternative Healthcare industry, has led to a whole host of new debilitating illness & disease. A situation which has resulted in the Pharmaceutical companies reporting record profits, as more and more drugs are developed to fight illness & disease brought about by a diet of GM and processed food. Addiction to prescribed drugs at birth is becoming an increasingly common condition.
How did we ever get into this situation? Well, the history books tell us that in 2009, the first EU President, Tony Blair, signed a piece of legislation called Codex Alimentarius; paving the way for the likes of Monsanto and Big Pharma to begin the process of abolishing organic farming and marginalizing the Complementary & Natural Health Community.
“Why didn’t anyone try to stop Codex Alimentarius from being implemented?” I hear you ask. This is a very good question and one that still baffles people today. Records show that alternative communities like Totnes & Glastonbury were given the opportunity to attend talks and conferences on the subject but there was great apathy.
One report states that when Complementary & Alternative Health Practitioners were told about the imminent threat of Codex Alimentarius, they responded by saying things like, “ No way – they’ll never do anything like that!” or “Oh, that’s so negative … I just don’t give it the energy.”
By 1st January 2010, it was all over. What had become known as the ‘Totnes Bubble’ was well and truly burst. People across the Country took to the streets in their hundreds of thousands as the full realisation hit home … but it was too little, too late. If only the Organic Farmers, Complementary and Alternative Health Industry & Transition Town Communities had united behind the leadership of the Alliance for Natural Health, to fight the implementation of Codex Alimentarius, things might be rather different today. If only …..
For more information on the work of the Alliance for Natural Health, visit: www.anhcampaign.org
This article was originally published in the November 2007 edition of Breathing Space Magazine
Very good Ian! Most enjoyable and fair play to you
Of course, the failure in that scenario cant really be attributed soley to Transition Towns: theres over a centruy of highly advanced social conditioning to take into account, which has got a lot to do with why we have this problem with the "Fictional Persons" known as Multinational Corporations taking the p*ss now _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Transition Town & Intellectual Honesty
ianrcrane wrote:
Transition Town - Part of the solution?
Many hundreds of man-hours are being invested in preparation for a hypothetical situation that is extremely unlikely to occur any time in the forseeable future.
Proof please.
ianrcrane wrote:
Is there more to 'Transition Town' than is currently being disclosed ... or is it simply a case of well-meaning ecologists dreaming of sustainable community while being oblivious to the geo-political realities. E.g. Codex Alimentarius and the GMO agenda
Proof please as to why GMO and codex are geopolitical initiatives. Isn't GMO just about profit and greed, as usual?
ianrcrane wrote:
This concern is exacerbated by Rob Hopkins (founder and self-appointed leader of the Transition Town initiative) absolute refusal to acknowledge the significance of Codex Alimentarius, as evidenced by his comments in the final few minutes of the Glastonbury Radio debate.
Did he really refuse to acknowledge the issue and is it really that important compared to peak oil?
ianrcrane wrote:
Only time ... and a greater regard for intellectual transparency ... will tell.
So being so enlightened has given you the power of truth. Get real Ian. You know no more than the next man.
ianrcrane wrote:
In 2005, I attended a presentation by Naresh Giangrande (Rob Hopkins sidekick) on 'Peak Oil'. The presentation incorporated the standard Campbell/Simmons/Ruppert hypothesis on 'Peak Oil' but was presented as FACT. During the Q&A session, it became apparent that Naresh possessed limited oilfield knowledge. At the end of the evening, I approached Naresh and suggested that perhaps the issue of 'Peak Oil' should be opened up for debate. He declined the invitation. Subsequent suggestion, to both Naresh Giangrande & Rob Hopkins, that the issue be debated publicly were rejected.
Could you please give your oil field credentials including your petroleum engineering qualifications. Equally, perhaps you could give us your political experience and qualifications. You know, the ones that show how you have inside knowledge of what Kissinger was up to aside from what posters on Google have written.
ianrcrane wrote:
Eventually, Changing Times, a Lewes based organisation who focus on providing a vehicle for questioning received wisdom, arranged the debate that Transition Town Totnes had successfully avoided for the previous two years.
In the aftermath of the Lewes debate, I tried once again, to encourage the Transition Town founder, Rob Hopkins, to participate in a similar event, so that the population of Totnes may have the opportunity to hear an alternative view on the issue of 'Peak Oil'.
The following Email was sent to Rob Hopkins (cc: Naresh Giangrande) on Friday 14th September 2007.
Quote:
Hi Rob,
I believe it is now more than two years since I first broached the proposal of a public debate with either yourself (or Naresh) on the subject of Peak Oil. Although the basic premise of TT philosophy is based upon “an understanding of Peak Oil and Climate Change as twin drivers …”, you have (perhaps understandably) been reluctant to acknowledge the validity of counter proposition. However, I am sure that you will be aware of my participation in the recent Peak Oil debate, hosted by Changing Times, in Lewes, Sussex, on Tuesday September 4th.
Mike Grenville, representing the Transition Town Community, made some very interesting comments and observations during the course of the evening but it was very apparent that some of the information which I presented was new (by his own admission) to at least one of the three TT members who had come along in support of Mike. It was interesting, if rather surprising, to learn that, according to the event organisers, both Mike Grenville and the Lewes TT community had elected not to promote awareness of this debate, either on their respective websites or via their respective mailing lists. If this is the case, it is really quite startling and raises the question as to whether those who actively seek to promote the hypothesis of Peak Oil are wary of their hypotheses being placed under scrutiny!
As Lewes is but a satellite of the Totnes initiative, it would seem most pertinent to continue this debate in Totnes. Consequently, I propose to hold a similar event in Totnes on the evening of Friday 18th October at St. John’s Church, Bridgetown. As prime movers in the TT movement, I would like to invite either yourself or Naresh to present the case for Peak Oil; I would then present the counter view.
If either of you are unable to participate in this event, perhaps you would like to recommend an alternative Peak Oil or TT campaigner to present the case for Peak Oil.
Please do not hesitate to contact me, if you would like to discuss the proposition further.
Meanwhile, I look forward to hearing from you.
But why should credence be given to your viewpoint by groups like TT when you don't accept that oil fields even go through a cycle of peak and bust. This is fact and if you ignore it to satisfy your own agenda then you'll convince no one who does understand it.
ianrcrane wrote:
It should also be noted that Rob Hopkins banned me from posting on his Blog immediately after the Glastonbury Radio debate, spreading the word that I was attacking him! In reality, I was asking the hard questions and pointing out the self-harm that Rob was potentially inflicting by his dogmatic stance on his 'Twin Drivers' of Peak Oil and anthropogenic Climate Change. I have expressed my preference for all Email exchanges bewteen myself and Rob Hopkins to be posted in the public domain ... but strangely enough he seems reluctant for his responses to be subjected to public scrutiny.
As I have stated on many occasions, I absolutely support many of the Transition Town initiatives but until such time as the TT leadership are prepared to come out from behind their totalitarian stance (disguised as 'non-confrontational' politics), and acknowledge the imperative of stepping beyond the simplistic ideology of 'Thinking and Acting Locally ... to the exclusion of all else, I will continue to question the role and integrity of the Transition Town agenda.
But you stance is equally totalitarian and has always been so. Unless people accept what you say about what happened in 1973 and therefore what is happening now, you treat them as lesser mortals who should be removed from positions of influence.
ianrcrane wrote:
One major concern is that this dogma is now being presented in schools ... as fact! Of course, we need to move the world away from burning 90million barrels of hydro-carbons every single day ... but our best hope of doing this is to encourage the intellectual and scientific curiosity of the younger generation ... not by going into schools and telling them that they're f*cked, 'cos their parents and grandparents lacked the ingenuity to move beyond the age of oil ... so their best hope is to start learning how to plough fields with horses!
I have children and not one of them is being taught what you say. The teachers don't have a clue themselves and the government dare not introduce such talk into the curriculum.
ianrcrane wrote:
Rob Hopkins is too young to remember the last Kissinger induced 'Oil Crisis' of 1973/74; however, a few minutes research would enable any interested party to realise that Kissinger took the opportunity to tag on a 'global food crisis'. Back then the agenda was to destroy the American family farmer and allow the embryonic agri-business to make a (successful) Land-Grab.
Yes, I've read Endgahl's book too (in fact he originally believed in peak oil], but there is no hard evidence to support his claim. In fact, the US created the SPR almost immediately afterward. One has to wonder why if the crisis was manipulated.
ianrcrane wrote:
The contrived 'Food Crisis' being tagged on to the current 'Oil Crisis' is all about the introduction of GMO. Meanwhile Transition Town is keeping people's eye's off the bigger picture by focusing on planting nut trees.
Proof please.
ianrcrane wrote:
The potential of Transition Town is enormous but until such time as the TT leadership demonstrates a willingness to research the bigger picture and open their philosophy to wider scrutiny, this 'non-confrontational' top-down community organisation will not be part of the longer term solution ... indeed, it may even become part of the problem!
That's right, they should ignore the views of some of the worlds best petroleum engineers and former head's of exploration and believe a bunch of stories instead. As I've said above, your view isn't the only one so perhaps you shouldn't throw so many stones.
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: View & Counter-View
My dear James,
I do believe that I have invited you to participate in a public debate, where we might further explore the hypothesis and counter-hypotheses of 'Peak Oil', on at least one occasion. An invitation you declined.
How about you contact Transition Town and invite one of their Peak Oil proponents to be your seconder? Alternatively, perhaps you could approach David Strahan or even Colin Campbell himself? If you should agree to this proposition, I promise that my seconder will be a Reservoir Engineer with 20+ years field experience, with a further 10+ years operating at senior management level within the industry.
The proposed debate would not be 'competetive' but simply provide a forum where alternative hypothesis could be presented for consideration by the audience. To ensure maximun exposure for this prospective event, I have already solicited interest from a Sky TV channel and a networked Radio Show.
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: View & Counter-View
My dear James,
I do believe that I have invited you to participate in a public debate, where we might further explore the hypothesis and counter-hypotheses of 'Peak Oil', on at least one occasion. An invitation you declined.
How about you contact Transition Town and invite one of their Peak Oil proponents to be your seconder? Alternatively, perhaps you could approach David Strahan or even Colin Campbell himself? If you should agree to this proposition, I promise that my seconder will be a Reservoir Engineer with 20+ years field experience, with a further 10+ years operating at senior management level within the industry.
The proposed debate would not be 'competetive' but simply provide a forum where alternative hypothesis could be presented for consideration by the audience. To ensure maximun exposure for this prospective event, I have already solicited interest from a Sky TV channel and a networked Radio Show.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Transition Towns - Let's discuss
At this point in the thread, if everyone doesnt mind, I'd just like to acknowledge their is a history of heated debate about Peak Oil between James and Ian, which I certainly think they should be allowed to have, but I'd definately like is to actually discuss the merits of the actual ideas contained in this Video as part of this thread, and dont want to see it buried under a weight of Peak Oil argument
John White wrote:
Quote:
TRANSITION TOWNS: An Interview with Rob Hopkins
The founder of a growing movement shows us around 'Transition Town Totnes' in Devon and talks about peak oil, the origin of the Transition Towns concept and how to help your community develop an 'energy descent plan' and prepare to 'power down.'
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: View & Counter-View
My dear James,
I do believe that I have invited you to participate in a public debate, where we might further explore the hypothesis and counter-hypotheses of 'Peak Oil', on at least one occasion. An invitation you declined.
How about you contact Transition Town and invite one of their Peak Oil proponents to be your seconder? Alternatively, perhaps you could approach David Strahan or even Colin Campbell himself? If you should agree to this proposition, I promise that my seconder will be a Reservoir Engineer with 20+ years field experience, with a further 10+ years operating at senior management level within the industry.
The proposed debate would not be 'competetive' but simply provide a forum where alternative hypothesis could be presented for consideration by the audience. To ensure maximun exposure for this prospective event, I have already solicited interest from a Sky TV channel and a networked Radio Show.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Transition Towns - Let's discuss
At this point in the thread, if everyone doesnt mind, I'd just like to acknowledge there is a history of heated debate about Peak Oil between James and Ian, which I certainly think they should be allowed to have, but I'd definately like us to definately discuss the merits of the actual ideas contained in this Video as part of this thread, and wouldnt want to see the opportunity buried under a weight of Peak Oil argument
John White wrote:
Quote:
TRANSITION TOWNS: An Interview with Rob Hopkins
The founder of a growing movement shows us around 'Transition Town Totnes' in Devon and talks about peak oil, the origin of the Transition Towns concept and how to help your community develop an 'energy descent plan' and prepare to 'power down.'
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: View & Counter-View
ianrcrane wrote:
My dear James,
I do believe that I have invited you to participate in a public debate, where we might further explore the hypothesis and counter-hypotheses of 'Peak Oil', on at least one occasion. An invitation you declined.
How about you contact Transition Town and invite one of their Peak Oil proponents to be your seconder? Alternatively, perhaps you could approach David Strahan or even Colin Campbell himself? If you should agree to this proposition, I promise that my seconder will be a Reservoir Engineer with 20+ years field experience, with a further 10+ years operating at senior management level within the industry.
The proposed debate would not be 'competetive' but simply provide a forum where alternative hypothesis could be presented for consideration by the audience. To ensure maximun exposure for this prospective event, I have already solicited interest from a Sky TV channel and a networked Radio Show.
Let's open our respective hypotheses to scrutiny.
kind regards,
Ian R. Crane
If you give me the details, I will contact the relevant people.
In the meantime, perhaps you'd be so kind as to answer the questions and issues I have raised above as i wasn't asking for a public debate.
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: Community Led?
I've PM'd you James, with regard to getting a debate established later this year.
Meanwhile, I'm not going to go over old ground with you again on the forum. Anyone remotely interested can use the forum search facility to review our previous exchanges.
The issue being debated on this thread is Transition Towns. A concept that I have already acknowledged has tremendous potential ... if it is truly a 'Community Led' movement; ie policy, philosophy and direction being decided by the 'Community' ... and not by an the inner sanctum of the 3-man Transition Initiative Group.
Meanwhile, this thread on the powerswitch forum discusses some of the concerns being raised by TT participants, with regard to the way in which the Transition Town movement is being 'structured'.
For the debate on this thread to continue in an objective vein, it requires the input of existing TT or the likes of Justin and/or John to participate in the embryonic TT community and feed back on their experiences.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject:
Quote:
For the debate on this thread to continue in an objective vein, it requires the input of existing TT or the likes of Justin and/or John to participate in the embryonic TT community and feed back on their experiences
I'm happy to do that _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Likewise....I did in fact turn up to a TT meeting in Kendal last Thursday. Five other people turned up representing Kendal and Sedbergh and by the time the meeting started properly at 8.30pm (should have started at 7pm) I had to leave to get back to a conference telephone call on the Whole Truth Coalition. Two of the participants were adamant that MMCC and Peakoil were essential to the raison d'etre of TT and that I was completely wrong with my views. Oh well!
I have to say, though, that there seemed to be no warmth or humour amongst the participants - they all seemed to be the deadly earnest cycling types with very fixed views.....but then again, you could argue that about myself I suppose _________________ Connect to Infinite Consciousness - enjoy the ride!
Last edited by Justin on Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
if peak oil happens and people go hungry, things get desperate, crime goes mad and law and order breaks down or splinters then all a TT or similar self sustaining agricultural community is going to be is a big fat target mad max style for any hungry or opportunistic persons to descend upon and take for themselves.
therefore its a nice exercise, building up the infastructure for bigger stronger and more selfish people to steal off you mad max style. But its an ultimately futile and hopelessly idealistic one unless they do it US patriot movement style and arm themselves to the teeth and train daily in defending their community at any cost
if peak oil is wrong or doesnt happen, then it will just be a nice isolationist hobbyist regime for people to have an alternative life.
either way, i see no point in it.
if the * hits the fan, ill be in a city. im not a farmer.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject:
iro wrote:
if peak oil happens and people go hungry, things get desperate, crime goes mad and law and order breaks down or splinters then all a TT or similar self sustaining agricultural community is going to be is a big fat target mad max style for any hungry or opportunistic persons to descend upon and take for themselves.
therefore its a nice exercise, building up the infastructure for bigger stronger and more selfish people to steal off you mad max style. But its an ultimately futile and hopelessly idealistic one unless they do it US patriot movement style and arm themselves to the teeth and train daily in defending their community at any cost
if peak oil is wrong or doesnt happen, then it will just be a nice isolationist hobbyist regime for people to have an alternative life.
either way, i see no point in it.
if the * hits the fan, ill be in a city. im not a farmer.
God damn that's cynical... and hardly realistic. Assuming your not looking to community AND your not going to be one of the Mad Max apocalypse types either, all you'll acheive by rushing into a city is throwing yourself on the mercy of centralised (fascist) authority to protect you and tell you what work camp to slave at.
Good luck with that Iro
Find something to have some belief in, just for your own sake OK?
Personally I dont think you'll find anything better than community, and community WILL survive the 9 meals from Anarchy turmoil that most likely would ensue if Oil supplies did suddenly cease
Quote:
if peak oil is wrong or doesnt happen, then it will just be a nice isolationist hobbyist regime for people to have an alternative life.
Or the foundation of the rennaisance _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
ok, save giving me a lecture and address the realistic point i made. if people are hungry they will take food - if such a town is offering a renewable supply of it - its a target. How does such a town propose to defend itself? Ideology is nothing without realism (or pessimism as blind idealists call it)
supply and demand.
all those communities will be is local authoritarianism to be an opposame to city anarchy. What i mean by being in the city, that comes frm the fact that i live in a city. I will be in my home if the sh*t hits - it was just an observation. Thats where i spend most of my time
no difference. I'm not bothered what happens in the future - as bill hicks said - its just a ride. I'm not a christian, if this life gets untolerable, ill end it.
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Mad Max fantasies
John White wrote:
But its hardly a need to talk about Mad Max fantasies on an internet forum
Obviously the "mega-doom Mad Max scenario pessimists" offer no positive way forwards...
This post from another site struck me as quite insightful:
slow_dazzle wrote:
Don't give up because if you do you are beaten before you start.
Don't head for anywhere you are a stranger. Stay where you are, talk to your friends, your family and your neighbours without coming across as a complete kook. (I don't do the latter very well)
It might seem batshit crazy, alarmist etc but make sure you have at least some tinned/dried food and anything you might miss if you couldn't get it.
Forget the gunning up stuff. If it gets that bad life won't be worth living anyway.
As for the need for an economic paradigm shift that is a given. Trouble is we have painted ourselves into a corner because retrofitting an entire economic system is a Manhattan Project sized task. Moreover, our economic system doesn't have a reverse gear. It either keeps going forward at a constant/increasing pace, in which case everything is mostly ok, or it slows down which isn't ok. If it slows down a lot that is very very not ok, if you guys will excuse the grammar. Economics is moving molecules around using energy so if the energy to move all the molecules around gets scarce it's difficult to see how we can pull through in the short term. Search on "steady state economics" or "steady state economy" to read up on possible answers.
Tin foil hat time. It is absolutely inconceivable that the governments of the west have not been fully aware of the effect of the energy demand line crossing the supply line for a long time. There has been virtually no attempt to develop a Plan B, at least, not one that has ever been overtly stated. There is evidence of game theory being used to predict how people will respond though. For example, search on "war games on the grandest scale".
It is this apparently suicidal march forwards, in light of the full knowledge that hitting the energy plateau is going to have nasty effects, that really worries me. I suppose that on the one hand the batshit crazy gobbling up of resources could just be the effect of corporate greed which is virtually indistinguishable from how organised crime operates. And organised crime now comprises around 15-20% of global GDP. Gangster-like behaviour leads to crazy actions such as the recent wiping out of the sturgeon in order to harvest caviar for the western European markets and it is pretty much a given that organised crime and government overlaps in a number of areas. We already know about the narco-government interface, for example.
I don't buy the global depopulation plan because I don't buy the notion of a cabal in charge of everything. It is possibly the fact that nobody is in overall control that has led us down this dead end in the first place. (I am not advocating global government - if anyone with a Big Plan emerges in the aftermath of the looming crisis run away from them very quickly). If a single cabal WAS in charge we wouldn't be in this mess right now. The fact that we have gotten into this mess is the clearest evidence, for me at least, that various power groups run various bits of the machine. They do not all have the same agenda nor do they communicate/collaborate. Nope, it is more likely that the lack of a common goal has led us into the mire rather than a cabal deliberately steering us towards our collective doom.
If the masses do eventually wise up to what is happening we might just emerge at the other side with a huge increase in consciousness and some thought about where we are headed as a species. The materialistic life style we have been increasingly living for several decades now has stopped people from thinking too deeply about anything when we really should have been looking inside ourselves rather than buying plastic pumpkins. Maybe the crisis will lead to an evolutionary shift in consciousness, one that allows us to move forward with a new way of thinking about what we are and where we are headed.
Of course, I could be spouting utter guff and it might be that homo sapiens has simply overshot the carrying capacity of its ecological niche. We behave like several species actually, because we can use clothing and technology to occupy niches that would be otherwise inhospitable. Fossil fuel has allowed us to do that by carrying out agriculture where it would not, otherwise, be possible for a start. And if it was not for fossil fuel places like Las Vegas would not exist.
Back to tin foil city. The worry is what are the controlling groups going to do, and how, once people start to realise they are fiznucked? The masses don't need to be totally fiznucked to go batshit crazy either. The simple realisation that driving a car probably won't be possible in the months/years ahead, for example, will cause serious angst. Couple that with economic depression and people will get restless. So there must be a contingency plan for dealing with the unrest that is almost certainly going to develop and it is the form that plan might take which worries me.
Whatever is going to happen one thing is absolutely clear: homo sapiens is at a watershed point in its history. Anyone who promoted the concept of an energy plateau ran the risk of ridicule in the not too distant past. Anyone who continues to debunk the concept should do some research first because there is ample evidence that the machine is beginning to seize up. And there is the nagging question of how those in power are going to deal with the crisis.
Free energy would probably be the greatest disaster ever in the history of the world. I hesitate to say that cheap energy was totally disastrous (it did build some fancy and potentially useful someday trinkets, if we're to graduate to some sort of more humane, equal society, with a future), but it comes in as the next most disastrous.
Free energy would mean everybody would feel entitled to go on like we have been going, only more so. 99% of the people would be oblivious then to the fact that energy is hardly the only thing that is going to be priced beyond the reach of most people (water, topsoil, food, privacy, elbow room, most minerals, plastics and so on), and would continue to change cellphones every year and cars every five years as they race to the end of the ecosphere.
Cheap energy meant that the population of the world went into overshoot. Free energy would be a catastrophe beyond belief. At least until some sort of sense is made about all the other resources we need to sustain populations with a minimum of dignity. While "minimum" has a variable range of definition, "none" doesn't and we're heading to "none" in the case of some resources.
I'm sort of hoping that * hits the fan hard sometime soon. Only a massive wave of unrest and civil confusion will make it possible to institute the huge changes we need to make a transition. Remember, in the evd a lot of the democratic gains we made over the last couple of centuries were made by people shouting and throwing rocks in the streets, for better working conditions, for the right to have a rest, for the right to vote et. al. I certainly do not expect things to change until truckers are striking, mothers are in the streets yelling and throwing rocks at political figures, army members are deserting, cops are disobeying orders and so on.
what im saying is there are levels of existence im prepared to experience and there are levels im not. If i need to move on to the next life - i only see it like rebooting a computer game where you've * it up and need to start again. No big deal (to me) I dont claim to speak for others however.
i think my observations are incredibly important in this kind of topic, as its quite literally in my mind the single most important thing as - if peak oil is true - and that truth is central to the TT doctrine and idealism, then theres going to be an incredibly difficult time ahead. People are going to be hungry and things are going to be transformed to a variant of the mad max fantasy - globally.
i dont believe that will happen at all - but these people do - so their entire project is flawed at its core. I cannot help but to point that out
To extend my observation to saying i have a hopeless defeatist outlook is far detatched from my mindset on life and beyond the words i wrote. You know me better than that - its too easy to call someone pessimistic in dismissing their non idealist POV.
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