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astro3
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 Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: 7/7 'Explosive' - The Final Judgement? |
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7/7: The final Judgement?
In the end, there was no murder weapon.
If the prosecution keeps changing its mind over what the weapon is supposed to have been, and if its story becomes more unlikely every time, then we are entitled to conclude that the case is unsound – or even worse, that it has somehow been fabricated. There are three different locations where the explosive used or found has to be concordant: London (four different sites), Luton (in a car in the Thameslink car-park) and Leeds (bath of 18, Alexander Grove). A concordant story must have recognisably the same substance present in the latter two, and that same stuff must have exploded in the first. If it cannot do that, then there is no case.
Phase 1: High Explosive
On 9th July, the police announced that ‘ High explosives were used in the attacks and were not home-made.’
Likewise, on 11th July: “All we are saying is that it is high explosives," Scotland Yard Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick told a news conference on Saturday. "That would tend to suggest that it is not home-made explosive. ‘ Advanced bombs were so powerful that none of dead have been identified, World Tribune.
http://z13.invisionfree.com/julyseventh/index.php?showtopic=69&st=7
Advanced and powerful bombs had been used, not home-made. Then on 13th July it was stated that these were of ‘C4’ explosive:
London explosives have military origin - Science Daily. LONDON, July 13 (UPI) -- | Quote: | Scotland Yard has asked for European cooperation in finding how last week's London subway and bus bombers obtained military plastic explosives.
Traces of the explosive known as C4 were found at all four blast sites, and The Times of London said Scotland Yard considers it vital to determine if they were part of a terrorist stockpile. C4 is manufactured mostly in the United States, and is more deadly and efficient than commercial varieties. It is easy to hide, stable, and is often missed by traditional bomb-sniffing detection systems, the newspaper said. Forensic scientists told the newspaper the construction of the four devices detonated in London was very technically advanced, and unlike any instructions that can be found on the Internet. |
Phase II: Brewed in the Bath
On July 17th 2005, The Observer reported that 22 lbs of tri-acetone tri-peroxide had been found in the bath of 18, Alexander Grove, Leeds. How much hydrogen peroxide etc would have been required to make this, and why would they leave behind so huge a quantity? How or where did they obtain the 70% concentration that would be required? Jane’s Terrorism & Insurgency Centre’ on 22nd July averred that ‘preliminary forensic testing’ both at the London bomb sites and at the Leeds property’ was pointing to TATP. This was it explained ‘a powerful homemade explosive.’
Photographs of the material present in the Luton car-park appeared on 26th of July 2005, kindly given by ABC News in America. It showed white explosive material. By this time TATP (tri-acetone tri-peroxide) was being hyped as the explosive. The TATP story did have the disadvantage that its detonation does not produce heat or light, whereas these were clearly evident to survivor-witnesses of this event.
Phase III: Black Pepper
Photographs of the material present in the bath at Alexander Grove were shown in The Sun, 14 April 2008. It showed black explosive material, viz. black pepper. At Kingston, | Quote: | | The jury, who were shown pictures from inside the flat, heard that containers of a mixture of black pepper and hydrogen peroxide, used as the main charge, were found sitting in the bath…. Empty bags of ground black pepper were found along with ice-cube bags and ice packs in the kitchen, |
Black pepper and peroxide, mixed together, will not really explode. The mixture would do much the same as the Chapati-flour bombs of the 21/7 crew, i.e. just go phut. That twist of the story at the Kingston trial argues for the innocence of the four suspects. At no stage of this 70m enquiry ‘Operation Theseus’ were the public shown any authenticated forensic reports of chemical analysis, of explosive material left at these sites. That suggests a fictional story is here unfolding. Whereas something did indeed rip apart three tube coaches, so terribly that no-one was allowed to view the ruins and they had to be destroyed in secret one year after the event.
Conclusion
Now that this Kingston trial is over, the story can hardly develop any further. We conclude, that the incoherence of accounts of the murder-weapon mean that the conjecture of Islamic guilt has now to be abandoned. The incoherence is evident both in the way the alleged explosive kept changing, and in the way the several different locations had different stories attached to them.
The four young men never had the faintest interest in chemistry, as far as anyone knew - as neither did the three on trial at Kingston. The obvious person to ask about all this would be Magdy El-Nashar, the Leeds Biochemistry graduate who was renting the Alexander Grove flat. His complete disappearance is symptomatic of this case.
The French anti-terror chief Christophe Chaboud informed The Times that ‘traces of ‘military plastic explosive, more deadly and efficient than commercial varieties, are understood to have been found in the debris of the wrecked underground carriages and the bus.’ (Times, July 13th). That seems the most credible account that anyone is likely to give us. How did the story get from there to black pepper in a bath? The most recent storytellers seem not to carry a memory of this earlier phase.
A conclusive argument can never be based upon CCTV images released three years after the event; it should rest, however, upon the demonstrated absence of murder weapon. It remains possible that the four young men did meet up in Luton car-park that morning; but if the British public wish to apprehend what caused the dreadful carnage in London on that day they will have to search elsewhere than in the rucksacks of those young men. |
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Desmond
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Astro you have fallen into a little trap there. It says traces of black pepper and peroxide were found it does not state that these were the only ingredients of the bomb.
You're making a mistake so many do, you're looking for the big holes but forgetting that the devil is in the detail.
If you're going to fake it, fake it right. Why would you not just use TATP or ANFO? Why claim black pepper was used? Would an expert by so stupid? It's a really idiotic thing to do and after months of planning do you think that such a large gaping hole would be missed? |
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paul wright
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Who said that the only reason the "dough bombers" of 21/7 failed to explode was because they failed to add 'black pepper'to the ingredients of H2O2 and chapati flour?
This is all kitchen ingredients and a total farce
The prevailing thought re 7/7 is that it was hydrogen peroxide plus acetone prepared in the bathroom of the downstairs Beeston flat bleaching the hair whilst presumably those above caught nothing of the fumes, requiring refrigeration, and becoming very unstable above the quantity of 1 gram.
Yet rushed in vast quantities in a very small hired Micra, while a BMW is available, and rucksacks, catching trains with only 3 minutes to spare
Who was that French antiterrorist expert brought in initially who said military-grade explosives undoubtedly?
Lately we had the liquid bombs from hydrogen peroxide and Tang fruit juice. How sane is this? Anyone with a bit of common can see through this, yet it's bs accepted by the highest courts of the land
What is the outcome of the Kingston farce? Simply
There must be at least 1001 chemistry professors in this country or even O-level students who could consign the evidence as nonsense
Will anyone speak up?
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Desmond
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Not at all sure where you got your explosive knowledge Paul. It seems a little flawed. While TATP is unstable it is still usable as an explosive. In fact there are quite a few videos on youtube of it being used in varying quantities. Also you're claim that it is very unstable at quantities around 1 gram is a little wrong. It mostly just burns at that kind of quantity. Above that amount it will detonate but it would be wrong to assume that any further increase in quantity would increase it's instability.
Why look at the explosive? After months of planning it's the first thing you would get down to a T. Professional highly paid experts in their field don't make that kinda of retarded mistake.
If TATP wouldn't have worked why claim that it would. These people are not dumb. Never presume they are.
A reason for adding pepper or flour to the mixture? Off the top of my head, it may reduce friction between crystals, it may make the mixture may stable, it may absorb any left over wetness, also TATP smells horrible and so pepper may hide that stench. |
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paul wright
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Bolllocks Desmond. You miss the whole point, and the reply to the original thread
This is completely madcap "justice"
I've been at it a lot longer than you
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Desmond
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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"You miss the whole point, and the reply to the original thread"
Oh I know you weren't replying to me. Still doesn't make your knowledge of explosives any better.
"I've been at it a lot longer than you"
At what exactly? And does this make you infallible? My neighbor has been using computers far longer than me, though he still calls me up once a week to help him with various issues. |
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TonyGosling
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Desmond
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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I did discuss the article. I gave reasons why black pepper may have been added, talked about why I doubted his line that the explosives in the bath weren't real.
Then Paul harped in with his lackluster knowledge of TATP, which I then responded to. It's not personal to correct someone. He then also tried to make a claim of "being at it" (though no reference to what "it" was) longer than me.
And what do you want me to reference? That TATP explosions of varying sizes can be seen on youtube? Well for that you can go to youtube and search for TATP.
That TATP is unstable yet can be handled? Well for that there are plenty of chemistry books, i suppose wikipedia will have a lovely article on non-nitrogen containing explosives and of course all those idiots of youtube making big bangs with the stuff seem to have retained their hands at least long enough to hold the camera to film it.
So Tony what other parts of Astro's article do you want me to discuss and what other references do you wish? |
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paul wright
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Dumb remark withdrawn, Desmond. Investigating your suggestions further
| Quote: | | Acetone peroxide would have made a decent military explosive if not for its instability. It can not be stressed enough how unstable and dangerous acetone peroxide is. As instability goes this is among the most unstable of other explosives here. |
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I would suggest making this explosive shortly before it is desired to use it as it is never wise to keep unstable primary explosives around too long. It can be stored rather safely under water for some time. If allowed to stand in the open it will vaporize after some weeks. If stored in a sealed container it may crystallize into the crevices of the cap which could detonate from the friction of opening. Mixing with RDX, PETN, or picric acid will improve the stability of this explosive.
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Desmond
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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Oh it is unstable, no-one is denying that. But it is stable enough to be made in varying quantities. I guess the first thing that needs to be really well understood is what "instability" means and TATP fits into that. When people say "TATP is unstable" do they actually know what that means? How unstable is unstable?
Interesting point, if you did choose to store the explosive "wet" could you use flour to absorb that water? Seems a little amateurish, but then again that is the illusion you would wish to create isn't it? |
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paul wright
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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I can see nothing in the transcripts from the July21st trial about TATP as a main explosive, just hydrogen peroxide. Perhaps you could set me right. The very small detonator may well have been a 2 gram+ pack of TATP. The rest appears to have been chapati flour and H2O2.
"It's bread..." as one of the perpetrators is quoted as saying re the oozing mess emerging from his rucksack, when challenged
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Desmond
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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TATP is the only explosive I can think of that you could make with hydrogen peroxide. And I wouldn't expect the exact details of the bomb or how it was made to ever be published, it never is. Would you really want to publish "how to make a bomb real easy"? It's not uncommon for transcripts to miss out one key ingredient or step, you stop imitators that way. I've never known for any case to publish that level of detail.
Then again 21st of July attack was a piss poor attempt and that's probably why it failed. I don't believe there was any major connection between the two incidents and so to try and gather any information about one from the other would be misleading.
And if it wasn't a TATP mixture what would be the purpose of mixing peroxide and flour together? What was either element doing? |
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numeral
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Desmond wrote: | TATP is the only explosive I can think of that you could make with hydrogen peroxide. And I wouldn't expect the exact details of the bomb or how it was made to ever be published, it never is. Would you really want to publish "how to make a bomb real easy"? It's not uncommon for transcripts to miss out one key ingredient or step, you stop imitators that way. I've never known for any case to publish that level of detail.
Then again 21st of July attack was a piss poor attempt and that's probably why it failed. I don't believe there was any major connection between the two incidents and so to try and gather any information about one from the other would be misleading.
And if it wasn't a TATP mixture what would be the purpose of mixing peroxide and flour together? What was either element doing? |
Ever heard of HMTD (hexmethylene triperoxide diamine) which was detected on a wallet on the Aldgate train and at 18 Alexandra Grove. It was also found in the liquid explosives case.
The 21/7 trial went into considerable detail about the construction of the rucksack bombs.
Flour or pepper is the fuel, hydrogen peroxide is oxidiser. The flour mixture can be made to explode if the peroxide is concentrated enough and the detonator is powerful enough, as FEL demonstrated.
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Desmond
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank you numeral, a man who knows his stuff apparently. |
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paul wright
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Desmond
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
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From what I understand HMTD is created when hydrogen peroxide and hexamine react, it's similar to TATP but contains nitrogen and is more stable.
It's relatively easy to make by the looks of it and with materials that are easy enough to get a hold of. A likely lad in the world of terrorist used explosives.
Two questions while I'm here.
"The very small detonator may well have been a 2 gram+ pack of TATP."
Why 2 grams?
Who are FEL (a silly question I imagine)? |
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numeral
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| paul wright wrote: | | Perhaps Numeral would like to expand for those of us not up with the science and evidence |
I was at Kingston Crown Court on May 2nd when Clifford Todd of the FEL was giving an overview of the 7/7 forensic evidence. The defence was not contesting the suicide bomber theory and Todd sat at the back of the court before he gave his evidence, hearing the other witnesses.
Summary
No commercial explosives were detected. He did not even mention military explosives. No pepper residue was detected.
No batteries were found at any7/7 bomb site.
ID documents of the alleged bombers were found but they were in a condition that meant they could not have been in the rucksacks or on the person. They were scattered some distance away from the seat of the explosions.
Rucksack fragments were found.
No trace of the detonators was found, no timers, no remote triggers. No plastic containers were found.
HMTD was found on a wallet at Aldgate and a low level was detected at Tavistock Square and Edgware Road.. No traces of any explosives were found at Russell Square.
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paul wright
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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The point at which TATP becomes definitely explosive?
| Quote: | | Flour or pepper is the fuel, hydrogen peroxide is oxidiser. The flour mixture can be made to explode if the peroxide is concentrated enough and the detonator is powerful enough, as FEL demonstrated. |
This is an extraordinary statement to make. It doesn't feel real, and there isn't enough freely available evidence to substantiate this chemical cocktail. Can you elucidate?
It still sounds like nonsense to me
Can you tell me the chemistry and physical forces going on here?
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numeral
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| paul wright wrote: | The point at which TATP becomes definitely explosive?
| Quote: | | Flour or pepper is the fuel, hydrogen peroxide is oxidiser. The flour mixture can be made to explode if the peroxide is concentrated enough and the detonator is powerful enough, as FEL demonstrated. |
This is an extraordinary statement to make. It doesn't feel real, and there isn't enough freely available evidence to substantiate this chemical cocktail. Can you elucidate?
It still sounds like nonsense to me
Can you tell me the chemistry and physical forces going on here? |
What is so unbelievable? Mix fuel oil and ammonium nitrate and you have an explosive (ANFO). MIx Aluminium powder and ammonium nitrate and you have got ammonal. It really is not hard to find mixtures that will explode. H2O2 is a powerful oxidiser. All you need is a fuel and not too much water.
The problem the 21/7 lot had was producing high concentration H2O2 starting with commercially available peroxide. Trying to boil it down in metal pans results in the decomposition of H2O2. They could not get the concentration above about 58%. Therefore no big bang.
The question that arises for me is this. If the 21/7 lot could not manage it, how come the 7/7 lot allegedly did?
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Desmond
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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"The point at which TATP becomes definitely explosive?"
Yes so it's an acceptable lower limit but it seems a rather odd thing to take as an upper limit. |
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