Gestapo Watch - ill and jobless to be treated as criminals

[TonyGosling]

Now basic wages have been driven down so far they are below the basic minimum anyone needs to survive - below the statutory minimum the welfare state has decided we need to live.
The answer - to punish those who cannot find a job that pays more than the minimum they need to survive.
This proposal cannot work. It will force people to turn to crime to feed their families.

Ministers face rebellion as benefits reform unveiled
that headline has now been changed to the more mildly mannered
Government announces radical shake-up of welfare system
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4371163.ece

Field leads criticism of welfare reform
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/field-leads-criticism-of -welfare-reform-873229.html

[marky 54]

a great idea, taken screwed up and shat on. (sorry for swearing).

imagine being put into work for benefit after 2 years, but the work you are doing helps ferther your skills and qualifactions and is focused on training and work experience. the jobcentre monitors peoples attendence record and time keeping. you'd have something constructive and vaulable and recent to take with you to your next job interview.

however this is actually more a case of punishment and putting the unemployed on a par with criminals. something that would be assumed people have been FORCED into unwillingly and only did to continue to recieving benefit because they are lazy and don't want to work. how does that help get a job?

if this is how the unemployed are seen no wonder people have been long term unemployed. and now they have took a good idea and made sure it makes the chances of finding work even less likely.

with this scheme i imagine groups of people scrubbing floors while the rest of society walks past pointing fingers and laughing.

[blackcat]

What is the point in making say an unemployed teacher clean the streets for his/her dole? Why not give them a teaching post for their dole? Then they could sack a full time teacher who would then become unemployed - and could be given a teaching post for their dole - and then another full-time teacher could be sacked! This could apply to all professions. There must be doctors and nurses and civil servants etc. etc. who are unemployed presently. Where is the payback from the computer revolution which promised us a life of leisure? I see precious little change in working hours or attitudes even though clearly millions of people are no longer needed to produce even more and more. To continue an economy based on greed they need to keep blaming the victims and only when the victims fight back will there be any progress. Usual story.

[isfahan]

[marky 54]

i really think it could be a good idea if they had not dehumanised it into punishment. i'd have no problem working for anything i got on benefits.

the benefits you recieve when unemployed are basically exactly the same as minimum wage, so people are effectively being paid for work they are not doing anyway.

when you take into account.

housing benefit (would be what ever your rent is)

council tax benefit (would be what ever you council tax is)

and a couple on jobseekers allowence 92 pounds

i worked it out to roughly 170 pounds per week (using what my rate of rent is and council tax plus the 92 pounds)

http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/benefit_rates#jsa_ib_per_all

other benefits would include child benefit and child tax credit but you get these even when working so i did'nt count them.

working for minimum wage at 5.52 pounds per hour for 38 hours per week works out to 207 pounds roughly, 173 roughly after tax.

so on benefits roughly 170
minimum wage 173

the only difference is working tax credit and what ever that would amount to if your intitled to it and working.

http://www.taxcentral.co.uk/taxcentral/home/reference/pockettaxguide/t axguidetaxcredits/default.asp

they should be doing more to help people on minimum wage IMO.

i also worked out that under some circumstances depending on your situation(ie how many kids you have), some people out of work get more than people in work on minimum wage.

im not justifying how this new idea is being bought in but something does need to be done, like i said they took a good idea and then ###@ on it.

[blackcat]

[Desmond]

Should we really be paying for other people to sit on their ass all day instead of working. Not working is not a right. Why should I work to pay taxes to pay for someone else not to bother? I like to think of my taxes going to nice things like doctors, teachers, fire engines and sewers.

And yes I know some people have legitimate problems, but not all do. And these menial jobs that people are taking offense to not doing by someone. People with apparently no skill and who say they are struggling to find work for 2 years are probably the best people to do it. The work needs done. Avoiding work just because you can't be bothered and so rely on other people's money is wrong.

Sure if you physically can't work then fair dos. But if you just can't be bothered to get up in the morning then why should I pay for that personal choice?

[blackcat]

Ok Desmond - I apologise. I thought you were just wrong about some things but now I realise you are just thick. My mistake. I won't be bothering with you from now on.

[Desmond]

I'm thick because I don't want to pay for layabouts perfectly capable of working?

[marky 54]

[marky 54]

why should bob....( who has worked hard for 30 years as a postman and paid taxes and N.I., who then lost his job because of cut backs, and now finds himself unemployed and finds it hard to find work due to his age, and lack of qualifications for other jobs other than being a postman.) be paraded around as a lazy bum who is sponging of the state and is now considered a criminal and forced into community service.

if however bob was offered training for benefit maybe he'd have more chance of getting back to work. but as it is he is going to be persecuted by the public and forced into community service, not as a respected person and member of society, but to be seen as scum.

[TonyGosling]

Welcome to the criminalisation of poverty.

Moves like this could trigger a civil war in Britain.

It could get nasty here fast.

[blackcat]

[TonyGosling]

[TonyGosling]

great blog post at the New Statesman
Roland Baker
24 July 2008 at 20:21

The jobs market is contracting. As permanent staff turn over, they are replaced by temporary staff with no rights. Purnell seems to believe that work is available to white men over 50 with skills. It is as long as the employer can chuck you out on a whim with a mobile phone message on your way home on a Friday night.

Purnell's policy of Arbeit Macht Frei is doomed to fail. He was the one who tried to help Cherie Bliar auction a copy of the report into Dr David Kelly's death for Labour Party funds and who faked himself into a photograph to make it look as though he was doing his job instead of actually doing it. This naivety blinds Purnell to the reality that greedy businesses will use the new placements as cheap labour for as long as business finds it useful. Then they will dump the unfortunates back on the dole.

For this policy to succeed there has to be viable long-term work for people to do - not just a revolving door created for private sector profit. This means temporary workers will have to be given equal rights to permanent staff, although if you ask employers to treat workers with any kind of respect, they just will not make work available.

The Lib Lab pact and the winter of discontent did for Callaghan. Brown and Purnell have learned nothing. The Con-Lab pact now in force will leave Labour with no seats in the next Parliament and David Cameron knows it, which is why he has pledged his support.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2008/07/unemployment-benefit-work