Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: God, gods & theology
This is a new thread from "Evolution, a theory in crisis..." (because it goes off on a slightly different subject).
Andrew. wrote:
truthseeker john wrote:
Andrew. wrote:
Evolution or Creation.
Isn’t this another distraction with yet another built in contrast? To divide and misrepresent. So people don’t look elsewhere.
First, the Bible starts with “By periods” We/most of us take the word “Day” as just! meaning 24 hours?
Also in Genesis it states “re-plenish”
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and REplenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Dear John, ''truthseeker john'' l have read some of your post, so for now I have written this, with the quotes also.
Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, "I AM" hath sent me unto you.
Yahweh translation to English is ''I AM''
GOD is a title not a name, Guardian Of Divinity
Jesus is a title not a name meaning saviour
Giants. Useless public works that devour the labour of people, pyramids ect. And the evil people that put others into slavery to do so. Also by taking them of their land for useless jobs. Should sound familiar.
Enoch
7:11 And they conceiving brought forth giants (Gen. 6:4-6);
7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labour of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
6:5 And "I AM" saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
6:6 And it repented the "I AM" that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
The Babylonians and the Romans are of the same race with a new name who overthrew Judaea twice and were Sun worshipers, astrology, Kabbalah, numerology ect mystic meg nonsense that they got confused with, as still happens to this day. The Bible uses Soni lunar reckoning astronomy, not the gagorian calendar we use. This helps with the many thousands of prophecies as the moon; planets; stars; positions cannot be faked as there positions set datum's and can be checked.
''Rome is the new Babylon
condemned by God.
(Injeel - Revelation/Apocalypse 17:5)
Koran Sura 17:5. When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you (Jerusalem) Our servants given to terrible warfare (the Babylonians - king Nebuchadnezzar): they entered the very inmost parts of your homes and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
6. Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
7. If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they* had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
* (the Babylonians and the Romans are the same race with a new name and country - note well New Covenant/Testament - Revelation 17:5). They destroyed both the First and Second Temples. They destroyed the First Temple as Babylonians (c.588 B.C.) and the Second Temple as Romans (70 A.D.) but the Babylonians and the Romans are the same race of people. JAH ''
_________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
John wrote:
Andrew,
I am not here to prove everything you say is wrong, in fact you are right about some things but there are one or two clues above that show something else than what people blindly believe. I have got more urgent things to do yet religion is part of the big picture – a very big part. Shall we take it to a new thread and without much arguing try to sort it out?
Ok John "one or two clues above that show something else than what people blindly believe"
I am that I am (Hebrew: אהיה אשר אהיה, pronounced Ehyeh asher ehyeh) is an incorrect English translation of the response God used in the Bible when Moses asked for his name (Exodus 3:14). It is one of the most famous verses in the Torah. Hayah means "existed" or "was" in Hebrew; "ehyeh" is the first person singular future form. Ehyeh asher ehyeh is generally interpreted to mean I am that I am (King James Bible and others), yet is most literally translated as "I-shall-be that I-shall-be."
The Wikipedia is correct here and the answer that “God” gave to Moses when asking for a name, was an evasive "I-shall-be that I-shall-be.” Another versions of saying the same are, “I will be what I will be” or “I will become what I will become” [to you].
So what’s in a name? What has this to do with a name? Well, a name (especially in the bible) represents a person’s reputation hence “God” says what he did, above.
(Note that it was later on that “God” was known as YHWH and although the assumption is otherwise, it could well be that these are different persons.)
According to the King James Bible at John 8:58 Jesus says, “before Abraham was, I am” but contrary to the view found in Christianity this is not Jesus claiming to be God. It is mistranslation in an effort to ‘prove’ that Jesus is literally the same as God and it has no connection with the “I am that I am” (which the Wikipedia admits, and which the Wikipedia admits that the "I-shall-be that I-shall-be" is a better translation for “I am that I am”).
John 8:58 would be better translated as “before Abraham was I existed” or “before Abraham, I was” but if Jesus existed before Abraham, this is clearly not the same as saying that he is God. _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
Last edited by truthseeker john on Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:24 am Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
What are those clues, please John.
hang on... _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:24 am Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
What are those clues, please John.
hang on... will answer in a bit. _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:24 am Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
What are those clues, please John.
hang on... will answer more in a bit. _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:44 am Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
What are those clues, please John.
hang on... will answer more in a bit. The server has gone wacky for a start!
How do we delete these old duplicated posts?? _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
Last edited by truthseeker john on Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total
John wrote:
The Wikipedia is correct here and the answer that “God” gave to Moses, when asking for a name was an evasive "I-shall-be that I-shall-be.” Another versions of saying the same are, “I will be what I will be” or “I will become what I will become” [to you].
Wikipedia ??? “I-shall-be that I-shall-be” “I will be what I will be” or “I will become what I will become”
I shall, I will be, will become ???
John wrote:
So what’s in a name? What has this to do with a name? Well, a name (especially in the bible) represents a person’s reputation hence “God” says what he did, above.
(Note that it was later on that “God” was known as YHWH and although the assumption is otherwise, it could well be that these are different persons.)
Genesis
2:3 And God blessed the Seventh Day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.
2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the period that the "I AM" God made the earth and the heavens,
I AM THAT I AM Guardian Of Divinity
John wrote:
According to the King James Bible at John 8:58 Jesus says, “before Abraham was, I am” but contrary to the view found in Christianity this is not Jesus claiming to be God. This is mistranslation in an effort to ‘prove’ that Jesus is literally the same as God and it has no connection with the “I am that I am” (which the Wikipedia admits, and which the Wikipedia admits that the "I-shall-be that I-shall-be" is a better translation for “I am that I am”).
John 8:58 would be better translated as “before Abraham was I existed” or “before Abraham, I was” but if Jesus existed before Abraham, this is clearly not the same as saying that he is God.
The Gospel according to John
John
8:44 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
8:45 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that He is your God:
8:46 Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I know Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His saying.
8:47 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
8:48 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet FIFTY years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
8:49 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am (ch. 17:5).
8:50 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the Temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS
Christ, the Spirit-Being that was placed in-side the body (IN-carnated not begotten as it has been misinterpreted) called Jesus, was not born 2000 years ago or even 2,000 millennia ago. He is, as he said, older than this planet and zillions of years old, being the first created by God (His oldest Son - Prince Michael - Dan. 10:21). It was only the human animal organic computer (body), that was used by the Son of God, that was born 2000 years ago. You are not supposed to worship or make graven images of a human organic computer, similar to the one that you are locked inside of, or even the spirit (Christ) that was within the body called Jesus, you are supposed to worship his Perfect Father the Supreme-Being, as Christ himself told you to do. God is not a human, He is a "Being of Light" (soul). Therefore His Son (Christ) is not a human either but was the soul (Being) that was inside the human body from the virgin-birth. God is Spirit (energy/Light) and you must worship Him in spirit (with your spirit - soul) in TRUTH and love Him, as He loves you. JAH.
Thoughts create the world
Just for a moment, imagine that you live in a magnificent ethereal world of indescribable beauty - a world consisting of subtle energies, where every thought you create instantly molds and shapes the immediate environment around you. Imagine a perfect world where your thoughts instantly create any reality you choose. Whatever your heart desires is suddenly made manifest before you. It is a glorious land overflowing with living light, a land where death, disease, and limitations are nonexistent. Imagine yourself in an ideal world where everyone is free to explore and develop their creative pursuits and experience their unlimited potential. Does this sound like heaven?
Just think what an immature or undisciplined being could and would do in this ideal thought-responsive world. Picture the chaos and destruction that a single primitive mind could create. One undisciplined mind would wreak complete havoc, destroying the perfection of the subtle environments and the privacy of all the inhabitants.
Now for a moment imagine what kind of educational environment would be the perfect training ground for this undisciplined mind. What kind of school would you create to educate this primitive state of consciousness? What kind of lessons would effectively train this disruptive mind to coexist in the thought-responsive heavenly dimensions?
Welcome to the slowed-down molecular training ground of consciousness. Welcome to the dense training ground of matter, where focused thoughts are required in order to create and prosper. Welcome to the ideal environment where the young and undisciplined mind can learn by trial and error without contaminating the pure realm of spirit. Welcome to your life.
This is one of the primary spiritual lessons we are here to learn. The unaware remain in the dense outer dimensions of the universe until they learn to exercise complete responsibility for their thoughts and actions. They then must learn to escape from the dense gravity field consisting of matter, form, and emotion. Eventually they recognize and break free from the illusions of form and to consciously pursue and experience their spiritual essence. One highly effective method of achieving this goal is self-initiated out-of-body exploration.
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
John wrote:
The Wikipedia is correct here and the answer that “God” gave to Moses, when asking for a name was an evasive "I-shall-be that I-shall-be.” Another versions of saying the same are, “I will be what I will be” or “I will become what I will become” [to you].
Wikipedia ??? “I-shall-be that I-shall-be” “I will be what I will be” or “I will become what I will become” I shall, I will be, will become ???
[quote="Andrew."] John wrote:
So what’s in a name? What has this to do with a name? Well, a name (especially in the bible) represents a person’s reputation hence “God” says what he did, above.
(Note that it was later on that “God” was known as YHWH and although the assumption is otherwise, it could well be that these are different persons.)
Andrew. wrote:
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the Seventh Day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.
2:4 These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the period that the "I AM" God made the earth and the heavens,
I AM THAT I AM Guardian Of Divinity
Gen 2:4 does not use the words' "I AM" and I can see that you are parroting things that religion has told you. Actually "God" can mean anyone who is has authority over others.
Andrew. wrote:
John wrote:
According to the King James Bible at John 8:58 Jesus says, “before Abraham was, I am” but contrary to the view found in Christianity this is not Jesus claiming to be God. This is mistranslation in an effort to ‘prove’ that Jesus is literally the same as God and it has no connection with the “I am that I am” (which the Wikipedia admits, and which the Wikipedia admits that the "I-shall-be that I-shall-be" is a better translation for “I am that I am”).
John 8:58 would be better translated as “before Abraham was I existed” or “before Abraham, I was” but if Jesus existed before Abraham, this is clearly not the same as saying that he is God.
Andrew. wrote:
The Gospel according to John
John 8:44 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
8:45 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that He is your God:
1) Proving that Jesus isn't God. 2) Perhaps even suggesting that the Hebrew God isn't God!
Andrew. wrote:
8:46 Yet ye have not known Him; but I know Him: and if I should say, I know Him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know Him, and keep His saying.
8:47 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
8:48 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet FIFTY years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
8:49 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am (ch. 17:5).
8:50 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the Temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS
The SUN existed before the world was! Does that make the SUN God??
Andrew. wrote:
Christ, the Spirit-Being that was placed in-side the body (IN-carnated not begotten as it has been misinterpreted)
That's your interpretation and I have yet to see any basis for it.
Andrew. wrote:
called Jesus, was not born 2000 years ago or even 2,000 millennia ago. He is, as he said, older than this planet and zillions of years old, being the first created by God (His oldest Son - Prince Michael - Dan. 10:21). It was only the human animal organic computer (body), that was used by the Son of God, that was born 2000 years ago. You are not supposed to worship or make graven images of a human organic computer, similar to the one that you are locked inside of, or even the spirit (Christ) that was within the body called Jesus, you are supposed to worship his Perfect Father the Supreme-Being, as Christ himself told you to do.
God is not a human, He is a "Being of Light" (soul). Therefore His Son (Christ) is not a human either but was the soul (Being) that was inside the human body from the virgin-birth. God is Spirit (energy/Light) and you must worship Him in spirit (with your spirit - soul) in TRUTH and love Him, as He loves you. JAH.
Sigh... people just do not get it!
1) "Jesus" or call him whatever, was a symbolic figure rather than a real person.
2) The Bible is an interpretation of much earlier writings and although some of it is true, much is only a Hebrew interpretation of those earlier writings, connected with their experiences with someone called YHWH, whom actually was an ET or ETs - which through interpretation and translation the Bible presents as one GOD.
If you do some honest homework you can find that this is true and here's one of those clues:
Gen 6:6 "And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart"
How can an Almighty and perfect God regret anything??? The obvious answer to a person who hasn't got his thinking clouded through religious doctrine, is thus:
"The Lord" (note, it does not say the "I AM") of Genesis 6:6 is not GOD!
Andrew. wrote:
Thoughts create the world
Just for a moment, imagine that you live in a magnificent ethereal world of indescribable beauty - a world consisting of subtle energies, where every thought you create instantly molds and shapes the immediate environment around you. Imagine a perfect world where your thoughts instantly create any reality you choose. Whatever your heart desires is suddenly made manifest before you. It is a glorious land overflowing with living light, a land where death, disease, and limitations are nonexistent.
Imagine yourself in an ideal world where everyone is free to explore and develop their creative pursuits and experience their unlimited potential. Does this sound like heaven?
To be precise this does not sound like heaven in a biblical sense.. the word translated as 'heaven' in the Old Testament means the sky - in the New Testament, it can mean being in a position of authority - hence we have the chosen "kings and priests" that go to 'heaven' - heaven being over people below. Get it? Similar are the "trees" in the parables - trees represent those in authority who stand high over people below them.
Andrew. wrote:
Just think what an immature or undisciplined being could and would do in this ideal thought-responsive world. Picture the chaos and destruction that a single primitive mind could create. One undisciplined mind would wreak complete havoc, destroying the perfection of the subtle environments and the privacy of all the inhabitants.
In a perfect world, the "immature and undisciplined" person would create havoc but then it wouldn't be a perfect world! Actually, you putting undisciplined with immature is unintentionally deceptive - we should not need much discipline but to be our true selves.
Andrew. wrote:
Now for a moment imagine what kind of educational environment would be the perfect training ground for this undisciplined mind. What kind of school would you create to educate this primitive state of consciousness? What kind of lessons would effectively train this disruptive mind to coexist in the thought-responsive heavenly dimensions?
Welcome to the slowed-down molecular training ground of consciousness. Welcome to the dense training ground of matter, where focused thoughts are required in order to create and prosper. Welcome to the ideal environment where the young and undisciplined mind can learn by trial and error without contaminating the pure realm of spirit. Welcome to your life.
This is one of the primary spiritual lessons we are here to learn. The unaware remain in the dense outer dimensions of the universe until they learn to exercise complete responsibility for their thoughts and actions. They then must learn to escape from the dense gravity field consisting of matter, form, and emotion. Eventually they recognize and break free from the illusions of form and to consciously pursue and experience their spiritual essence. One highly effective method of achieving this goal is self-initiated out-of-body exploration.
And I thought we were talking about theology. _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
Last edited by truthseeker john on Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:18 am; edited 10 times in total
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:43 pm Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
Yahweh translation to English is ''I AM''
That is no more correct than it would make me a person called Yahweh by me saying "I am" [whatever]. Yahweh has a meaning of an explosion of energy. It describes a build-up of pressure and the sudden release of that pressure. For instance, an orgasm was known as a Yahweh but they wouldn't dare tell you that in church! _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
That is no more correct than it would make me a person called Yahweh by me saying "I am" [whatever]. Yahweh has a meaning of an explosion of energy. It describes a build-up of pressure and the sudden release of that pressure. For instance, an orgasm was known as a Yahweh but they wouldn't dare tell you that in church!
Pagan Baal fertility
Baal-religion who erect phallic-pillarstones
So where did Easter come from? Easter comes from the word Ishtar, who was a Babylonian pagan fertility goddess of the Babylonian Mystery Religion of Sun-worship on Sundays; which is why it is celebrated with eggs, because eggs are a sign of fertility. Easter is a totally pagan festival that has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus; the Crucifixion, which was the Second-Passover; or serving God. JAH
Also reminds me of barack obama and his recent visit to Germany.
Stop listening to bible scholars if you want to understand the Hebrew Names of God. They are simply the blind leading the blind, as they know only the etymology of these words, not their underlying mystical meaning.
If you want to understand the true meaning of the Divine Names, which is mathematical, study the research articles at:
http://smphillips.8m.com/html/articles.html
It may take you six months to understand them adequately, but the effort will be worthwhile.
Stop listening to bible scholars if you want to understand the Hebrew Names of God. They are simply the blind leading the blind, as they know only the etymology of these words, not their underlying mystical meaning.
If you want to understand the true meaning of the Divine Names, which is mathematical, study the research articles at:
http://smphillips.8m.com/html/articles.html
It may take you six months to understand them adequately, but the effort will be worthwhile.
Dear Micpsi,
I don't think it wise to worship special shapes or numbers personally.Or any thing in what some term C space or matter.When your organic human body is born at first you have no consciousness the being [the real you] To talk about shapes, or physics is just humanising any understanding, and is not even Spiritual.
The first Commandment is to worship God who is a Spirit being You are not supposed to worship or make graven images of a human organic computer, similar to the one that you are locked inside of, or even the spirit (Christ) that was within the body called Jesus, you are supposed to worship his Perfect Father the Supreme-Being, as Christ himself told you to do. God is not a human, He is a "Being of Light" (soul). Therefore His Son (Christ) is not a human either but was the soul (Being) that was inside the human body from the virgin-birth. God is Spirit (energy/Light) and you must worship Him in spirit (with your spirit - soul) in TRUTH and love Him, as He loves you. JAH.
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
Dear Micpsi,
I don't think it wise to worship special shapes or numbers personally.Or any thing in what some term C space or matter. When your organic human body is born at first you have no consciousness the being [the real you] To talk about shapes, or physics is just humanising any understanding, and is not even Spiritual.
1) So where does it say that we should worship numbers or shapes on that website?
2) Where do you get the idea that the speed of light, time or space, energy or matter, have nothing to do with the spiritual??
3) I don't understand the maths (can't be bothered to be more exact) on that website but I do know that the universe exists because of intelligent information - even as modern science is now uncovering. So where does all the information (and the maths) that make all things come from, if not from a magnificent Mind?
So yes, I do believe in God but the entity who flew around in "a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night" that the Hebrews followed, was not God. No, God is much bigger than any nationalistic god who murders whole nations for the sake of his chosen people.
Andrew. wrote:
The first Commandment is to worship God who is a Spirit being You are not supposed to worship or make graven images of a human organic computer, similar to the one that you are locked inside of, or even the spirit (Christ) that was within the body called Jesus, you are supposed to worship his Perfect Father the Supreme-Being, as Christ himself told you to do. God is not a human, He is a "Being of Light" (soul). Therefore His Son (Christ) is not a human either but was the soul (Being) that was inside the human body from the virgin-birth. God is Spirit (energy/Light) and you must worship Him in spirit (with your spirit - soul) in TRUTH and love Him, as He loves you. JAH.
There you go quoting religious doctrine which I add, is a confused mixture of some truth with some untruth. Most Christians say that God is within, yet they resort to what it says in religious books and follow doctrines which contradict themselves!
Religion brainwashes people into what they should think and feel, what they should do or not do. And because of that, many wars have been fought and millions and millions of people have been murdered in the name of religion. So religion with it's idea of a 'chosen people' is little better than what Hitler was doing with his idea of a superior race and we see examples in Zionism and in what the RC church was doing with it's biblical (but they decided what to include into the bible canon) "kings and priest" to rule the world (read NWO) for a thousand years - while in Revelation Jesus is depicted with a "rod of iron" to beat the nations into submission, else go to 'hell'!
That's like saying that God is love but if we do not obey everything he says we are going to be burnt forever! Would you even think of doing that to your own children? No? You must be better than the God you follow then, so how is that possible?
There's no real excuse pointing out the good things in religion, because the good of religion does not nullify the misery that religion has caused from time immemorial. Go to your Bible and see how YHWH was slaughtering whole nations including children and babies - are you about to tell me that it was GOD who did that?
Then what about the garden of Eden, how could your Perfect and Almighty God make the mistake of creating man whilst (as religion would tell us) knowing that man would 'sin' against God? Sounds like the 'Perfect' God is mentally ill and is punishing himself doesn't it?
Look at Genesis 6 where 'God' said that he had regretted making mankind, are you going to be telling me that an Almighty and Perfect God made such a mistake? No, that wasn't God, it was someone else, as can be clearly seen if we have eyes to see. Wake up!
How can the truth be the doublethink as seen in just the few examples above? It makes no sense to anyone who can think for themselves, then you might be saying to me that "the truth will make us free"!
Listen, doublethink cannot be the same as truth, so cannot set us free. If we want to go to the bible it even says there, that God is not a God of confusion. Look up the word doublethink if you're not sure know what it means. http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=doublethink
There's only one religion (if we want to call it that) and it means Love, not the many conflicts and divisions that we find in religion. If you claim to have God within, you should know that we shouldn't need a book of rules to tell us right from wrong when all we need is love. _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
John wrote:
1) So where does it say that we should worship numbers or shapes on that website?
For your Love the one and hate the other.
John wrote:
2) Where do you get the idea that the speed of light, time or space, energy or matter, have nothing to do with the spiritual??
It's from God, and you can marvel at it. But it is not Him, or spirit beings.
John wrote:
''If you claim to have God within, you should know that we shouldn't need a book of rules to tell us right from wrong when all we need is love.''
You/we, don't know right from wrong by His standards. And your putting yourself above him, which is one reason your here.
All we need is Love, God is Love. But you have to overcome your bodies selfishness and the D/evil that is within all of us. Which can only be done by your/our own free will to learn to be good or remain bad. You/we have already had thousands of years to choose.
All of your questions are explained in the little book, bitter in the stomach and sweet in the mouth ''Revelations'' ie hard to take in and digest but easy to read.
Look at all the excuses in your/our thoughts we come up with to not read it let alone digest it.
Joined: 02 Oct 2006 Posts: 577 Location: Yorkshire
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:42 am Post subject:
Link David Ike on religion _________________ "Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish." - Euripides
"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." - Albert Einstein
"To find yourself, think for yourself" - Socrates
Last edited by truthseeker john on Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:35 am; edited 1 time in total
You/we, don't know right from wrong by His standards.
That's a peculiar assertion on your part.
Does it follow from this that you do not believe in divine judgment or any kind of afterlife? For surely if man has no concept of God's standards, judgment would be abitrary and meaningless. I would choose not to believe in such a god and observe a humanistic morality.
Are you aware of Plato's famous Euthyphro dialogue?
Andrew. wrote:
God is love
Another peculiar assertion, if you think about it. Why would god be love? Is that just your idea of what god is? In which case, why should I believe in an idea you have? My idea might be that there is no god. I feel there is evidence for this. Would you like to try my idea? I think it is at least as valid as yours, by any standards.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject:
Well,
It's either 'God' or 'gods'.
Since God is a supreme being how can there be loads of them?
All seems pretty obvious to me that anyone talking about loads of gods is some kind of bullshitter.
He's hardly going to create and run the world by committee.
You/we, don't know right from wrong by His standards.
That's a peculiar assertion on your part.
Does it follow from this that you do not believe in divine judgment or any kind of afterlife? For surely if man has no concept of God's standards, judgment would be abitrary and meaningless. I would choose not to believe in such a god and observe a humanistic morality.
Are you aware of Plato's famous Euthyphro dialogue?
Andrew. wrote:
God is love
Another peculiar assertion, if you think about it. Why would god be love? Is that just your idea of what god is? In which case, why should I believe in an idea you have? My idea might be that there is no god. I feel there is evidence for this. Would you like to try my idea? I think it is at least as valid as yours, by any standards.
jomper wrote:
"I would choose not to believe in such a god and observe a humanistic morality."
What is your morality on people who murder, should we let them continue.?
jomper wrote:
"Are you aware of Plato's famous Euthyphro dialogue?"
Its part of the set curriculum to study philosophers isn’t it even though they never agree on anything, and I don’t see much truth in what they have said. Not forgetting a deception can be 99% truth.
jomper wrote:
I think it is at least as valid as yours, by any standards.
Free will is very important jomper.
"Which can only be done by your/our own free will to learn to be good or remain bad. You/we have already had thousands of years to choose."
Thomas
6:1 Jesus said: If the flesh has come into existence because of the spirit, it is a marvel; but if the spirit has come into existence because of the body, it is a marvel of marvels (impossible). But I marvel at how this great wealth (the spirit) has made its home in this poverty (the body).
"The Matrix Decoded. Do you wan't to know what TheMatrix is? Learn it, and The Way how to get out, back in to The Real World, by reading these explanations ..."
You/we, don't know right from wrong by His standards.
As I said, that's a peculiar assertion on your part.
Does it follow from your comment that you do not believe in divine judgment or any kind of afterlife? For surely if man has no concept of God's standards, judgment would be abitrary and meaningless.
I'll return to your questions if you are able to answer this initial question first.
You/we, don't know right from wrong by His standards.
As I said, that's a peculiar assertion on your part.
Does it follow from your comment that you do not believe in divine judgment or any kind of afterlife? For surely if man has no concept of God's standards, judgment would be abitrary and meaningless.
I'll return to your questions if you are able to answer this initial question first.
Jomper wrote:
"Does it follow from your comment that you do not believe in divine judgment or any kind of afterlife?"
No it does not follow Jomper.
Jomper wrote:
For surely if man has no concept of God's standards, judgment would be abitrary and meaningless.
It takes free will to learn Jomper.
But His HIS Laws, Statutes and JUDGEMENTS, Economic Policy, Agricultural Policy etc, that we have free will to learn in this world are not too hard to understand. Not forgetting they are in harmony Spiritually.
God's PERFECT Laws are called "The Laws of LIBERTY" because they are designed to leave people perfectly free to do whatever they like, providing that they keep HIS Laws.
They are not OPPRESSIVE like man-made laws which selfish men made-up to suit themselves and their own greedy desires and to force others into submission and slavery to themselves and their home-made rules.
God's Laws are also The Laws of TRUE justice, not man's distorted opinions of what is justice to them. Each man's idea of justice is only what seems just to himself and as men are unjust themselves, so is their idea of justice. So therefore there can NEVER be TRUE justice under man's rule. Only God is impartial, unbiased and just and therefore His Justice, IS JUSTICE.
Under God's Laws everyone is equal and His Justice can NOT be bought, bent, spun, twisted or ignored.
His Laws guarantee freedom from OPPRESSION by selfish powerful people.
"The strong will oppress the weak. The rich will oppress the poor. The clever will oppress the not so clever and there will be continual struggle for survival, leading to crime, violence, war and eventually total annihilation - Armageddon. How can there possibly NOT be?
On the other hand; as Jesus demonstrated when he gave his life voluntarily for the benefit of everyone else; if you take exactly the same hundred people of whom you are one and everybody, including you, now puts everyone else first, before their "Self", then each individual, including you, wins ninety-nine times, because each individual has ninety-nine other people putting them first.
However, it will not work unless every single person does it, because one bad apple RUINS the whole barrel.
To explain even more clearly still, in terms that everyone should be able to understand, if they want to understand, one human family can amass an absolute fortune, under selfish, fraudulent, illegal laws; in the space of two hundred Earth years; and, in so doing, make millions of other people POOR and miserable."
I said I would reply to your questions and so I will briefly do so.
Andrew. wrote:
What is your morality on people who murder, should we let them continue.?
Of course not. You are surely aware that humanistic morals take as their starting point the dignity of life. I reject the assumption that the only source for higher morals is a superhuman being. My position is morality emerges from humanity and exists to serve humanity. I would furthermore challenge a theist's use of words like "law" and judgment" if they are identified with a concept of god on the basis that they are anthropomorphic, revealing their origin in common human concerns.
Andrew. wrote:
jomper wrote:
Are you aware of Plato's famous Euthyphro dialogue?"
Its part of the set curriculum to study philosophers isn’t it even though they never agree on anything, and I don’t see much truth in what they have said. Not forgetting a deception can be 99% truth.
I take it from this that you are not aware or interested in one of the most famous early dialogues of one the greatest of the ancient philosophers on the subject of god.
Although you apparently don't understand it, you nevertheless claim to find no truth in it. This is despite the fact that Plato's thought provides the intellectual context and substance to almost all post-Enlightenment Christian theology.
You further assert that philosophers do not agree - this is not true, although of course there are differing schools of thought through the history of philosophy. There are many opposed schools of thought in theology too, as theology - like philosophy - is a human activity.
To say "deception is 99% truth" in response to an aspect of Plato's thought you apparently don't wish to investigate is inadequate.
I looked at your discourse on The Matrix. Much as I think that film is brilliant, using its transcript in conjunction with passages from the bible to illustrate your conception of god seems to me bizarre and in practice it is, I'm afraid, incoherent.
"Plato's approach has been used as an assault on the coherence of Christianity. 20th century British philosopher and atheist, Bertrand Russell, formulated the problem this way in his polemic against the faith, Why I Am Not a Christian:
If you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, you are then in this situation: Is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for God Himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that God is good. If you are going to say, as theologians do, that God is good, you must then say that right and wrong have some meaning which is independent of God's fiat, because God's fiats are good and not good independently of the mere fact that he made them. If you are going to say that, you will then have to say that it is not only through God that right and wrong came into being, but that they are in their essence logically anterior to God.[3]
The Problem
Russell's version is an attempt to show an internal flaw in the Christian's notion of God and goodness. Is a thing right simply because God declares it so, or does God say it is good because He recognizes a moral code superior even to Him?
This problem presents a dilemma because one is forced to choose between two options, both ultimately hostile to Christian theism. The believer is caught between a rock and a hard place.
On the one hand, God reigns and His Law is supreme. As the ultimate Sovereign, He establishes the moral rules of the universe. His commands are absolute. We must obey."
Andrew, the logic this "Stand to Reason" site applies to its analysis of Euthypro is shocking.
For example:
"The awareness of morality leads to God much as the awareness of falling apples leads to gravity. Our moral intuitions recognize the effect, but what is the adequate cause? If God does not exist, then moral terms are actually incoherent and our moral intuitions are nonsense."
What rubbish: an appeal to a higher power as the foundation of morality - the first thing humanist ethics recognises as untenable - as if it were as self-evident as gravity. Outrageous.
And yet even after a whole page of such arbitrary argument, we do get the admission:
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to learn to be good or remain bad. You/we have already had thousands of years to choose."