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fish5133
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 Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:23 pm Post subject: Liverpool 'Christians' insult Muslim guest's faith |
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| Quote: | The Christian owners of a hotel are being prosecuted for a crime because they defended their faith and criticised Islam in a debate with a Muslim guest.
Police arrested Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang, who run the Bounty House Hotel in Liverpool, after a Muslim woman complained that she was offended by comments made on 20 March.
According to newspaper reports, the debate involved discussion of whether Jesus was the Son of God or just a minor prophet of Islam.
Newspapers also report that the debate included comments that Mohammed was a warlord and Muslim dress for women was a form of bondage.
However, the facts of the case are disputed.
The pair are now being prosecuted for a “religiously aggravated” public order offence. A criminal trial is set for 8 and 9 December at Liverpool Magistrates’ Court.
A major client of the couple’s hotel has ceased referring guests because of the allegations. This has led to a 80 per cent drop in the hotel’s income, leaving the couple in financial difficulty.
The Christian Institute is funding the Vogelenzangs’ legal defence. Its spokesman, Mike Judge, said: “We believe there are significant free speech and religious liberty issues at stake.”
The couple’s lawyer, David Whiting, said: “Ben and Sharon do not accept they were threatening, abusive or insulting.
“They are committed Christians and it is the defence’s contention that they have every right to defend their religious beliefs and explain those beliefs to others who do not hold similar views.”
The couple were arrested and charged in July under Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 and Section 31 (1) (c) and (5) of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.
If convicted the couple face a maximum fine of £5,000 and a criminal record.
Lawyers have expressed growing concern at the way public order offences are being used to limit free speech. The laws were introduced to deal with yobbish disorder in the streets, not limit robust debate.
Neil Addison, a criminal barrister and author of a legal textbook on harassment law, said: “The purpose of the Public Order Act is to prevent disorder, but I’m very concerned that the police are using it merely because someone is offended.
“It should be used where there is violence, yobbish behaviour or gratuitous personal abuse. It should never be used where there has been a personal conversation or debate with views firmly expressed.
“If someone is in a discussion and they don’t like what they are hearing, they can walk away.”
He added that the police had a legal duty under the Human Rights Act to defend free speech “and I think they are forgetting that”.
A police spokesman said: “Merseyside Police can confirm that Benjamin Vogelenzang and Sharon Vogelenzang, both of Fazakerley, were charged with a religiously-aggravated public order offence on 29 July 2009. This follows an incident on 20 March 2009.” |
http://www.christian.org.uk/news/christians-face-trial-for-criticising -islam/?e210909
Interesting to see how far this will go. But dont like the way its portrayed as religous discrimination against "christians . Its a free speech issue irrespective of any faiths involved and nothing to do with Christians persecuted for their beliefs.
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TonyGosling
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TonyGosling
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fish5133
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| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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It appears there was another guest who witnessed what went on. I did originally wonder why the Police decided to take the matter further
A trusted close source to the couple have told us that they have been receiving death threats which have been recorded and handed over to the police.
The Christian Institute who are supporting the couple are certainly getting some media coverage and closing ranks. I did email them complaining about the spin they were putting on the story and at least in their last circular to the churches they seemed to correct it to "criticising Islam" rather than "sharing their faith"
The couples barrister seems to be clutching at straws with his comment
| Quote: | | "The couple's barrister, Hugh Tomlinson QC, accused her of putting on the hijab that morning with the intention of making a statement." |
I am starting to get the feeling that a combination of scouse humour and a dutchman might not be that PC
| Quote: | Mr Vogelenzang, 53, began laughing at her and making fun of it, the court heard.
'He asked me if I was a murderer, if I was a terrorist,' |
I suppose if they had wanted to offend her they could have served her bacon for breakfast
Think the only winners will be the tabloids and the lawyers.
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"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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TonyGosling
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Yes it's a free speech issue and the police should stay out of it. Hoteliers should be free to be rude to their guests and guests free to be rude to hoteliers. There was never any question of the police prosecuting Basil Fawlty for being rude to his guests.
But it's chilling the way this is stirred up by the Mail's report and sold as discrimination against Christians. Confirms my belief that the PTB have a policy of stirring up religious hatred and my suspicion that the mysterious death of Keith, who was building bridges between the various faiths around issues of the truth about terrorism, was connected with this policy. |
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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The allegations of death threats are disturbing. I'm reminded of allegations by Rachel North that she had received death threats from truth campaigners. She never came up with any evidence of these though we offered to look in to it for her.
So either the death threat story is an invention or someone is making them in order to pour more petrol on the fire. |
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fish5133
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| xmasdale wrote: | The allegations of death threats are disturbing. I'm reminded of allegations by Rachel North that she had received death threats from truth campaigners. She never came up with any evidence of these though we offered to look in to it for her.
So either the death threat story is an invention or someone is making them in order to pour more petrol on the fire. |
I will check again my source of the "death threats" story but I dont have any reason to believe they are false. What may be in question is who made them, but ive no problem in thinking they could well have been from muslim extremists.
No winners except Free speech, lawyers and tabloids
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"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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Frank Freedom
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| Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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I have no problem with the idea this story is made up and brought to the courts to affect public opinion,and there were no death threats from any genuine muslim.
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fish5133
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Frank Freedom wrote: | | I have no problem with the idea this story is made up and brought to the courts to affect public opinion,and there were no death threats from any genuine muslim. |
The death threats story was not brought to the courts to affect public opinion (as far as I know) but please do correct me .
To death threats you can also add hate mail. I have every reason to believe they are not a story. As to whether they have been made by "genuine" muslims is debateable or people just trying to stir racial tension.
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JO911B.
"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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Frank Freedom
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| fish5133 wrote: | | Frank Freedom wrote: | | I have no problem with the idea this story is made up and brought to the courts to affect public opinion,and there were no death threats from any genuine muslim. |
The death threats story was not brought to the courts to affect public opinion (as far as I know) but please do correct me .
To death threats you can also add hate mail. I have every reason to believe they are not a story. As to whether they have been made by "genuine" muslims is debateable or people just trying to stir racial tension. |
People trying to stir public opinion sounds right to me.Who would do that do you think?
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fish5133
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:36 am Post subject: |
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Frank freedom wrote
| Quote: | | Who would do that do you think? |
well we can all think of 3 letters. then again weve seen the reactions of certain muslims when they feel their faith has been slighted.
What surprised me was the lack of info i could find on muslim/islamic websites about the whole affair. I wonder if they thought it was wiser not to back a white woman convert to Islam.
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JO911B.
"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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TonyGosling
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John White
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TonyGosling wrote: | Death threats turns a boring incident into something news worthy.
This is part of perpetuating the dunderheaded myth that Muslims want to kill anyone who 'offends' them.
This racist couple should be punished for inciting racial hatred. |
I wouldn't want to say that punishment was always the best option. Even people doing the best to live by their faith can struggle at times, let inner doubt and insecurity get the better of them and rail against other faiths based on a subconscious perception of them as threats
If either party were really as good a Christian or Muslim as they might consider themselves to be, forgiveness would seem a better option than the Police
Not to say sometimes prosecutions aren't necessary, but this particular situation seems more like a breakfast argument on a day that wasn't starting well than a serious case of religious intolerance, hatred or persecution
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GodSaveTheTeam
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:56 am Post subject: |
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For me this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.
So what if someone is "offended"? It's their own problem.
As long as no actual physical harm is done then why dont people just ignore these kinds of ill thought through comments?
Whatever happened to "sticks and stones...." etc.
It's stuff you learn in the schoolyard.
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xmasdale
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| Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Can't help feeling that a bit of that famous Scouse humour should be brought to bear on this one. These hoteliers seem to have behaved like Basil Faulty  |
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TonyGosling
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