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Barker
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 27 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:17 pm Post subject: Collective Guilt |
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Collective guilt has been used by authority figures probably since the dawn of social order. It is a method of social control by which authority figures test allegiance to them.
A classic example in our culture is the story of Adam and Eve, in which Eve by eating the apple, has an insight into a higher level of consciousness which 'God' does not want her or Adam to have.
My view is that this story was told by Moses so that the Hebrew people would experience guilt and fear for disobeying the law of that Moses had written for them |
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fish5133
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Disagree. There was no apple.
The story is to show the beginnings of the universal fallen nature of man through temptation by the serpent ( using mind gate, ear gate and eye gate in Bunyans Holy War language) and disobedience to his/her creator .
Should we not have guilt if we steal or murder?
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"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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TonyGosling
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Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
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Barker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Disagree. There was no apple |
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No actual apple, the story is a metaphor: the apple represents the temptation
| Quote: | | The story is to show the beginnings of the universal fallen nature of man |
I think we are starting to diverge here
| Quote: | | through temptation by the serpent |
The serpent, the rampant cobra was a symbol for enlightenment in Egyptian hieroglyphics, which is why you see the serpent head emerging from the brow of the statues of the Pharoahs. It also represented the 'serpent power', the kundalini in ancient Hindu yoga
Some quotes from Genesis:
Genesis 1 v27:
'So God created man in his own image
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them'.
Verse 29
'Then God said I will give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree with fruit that hath seed in it. they will be yours for food'
Later God changes his mind;
Chapter 2 verse 15
God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden and commanded the man: You are free to eat of any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, in the middle of the Garden for when you eat of it, you will surely die.
Chapter 3
The serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals, and said to the woman 'Did God really say that you must not eat from any tree in the garden?'
The woman replied:
‘God did say that we must not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden and must not touch it or we will die.’
The serpent replied ‘you will surely not die, because God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing Good and Evil'.
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it, and gave some to her husband who was with her, and their eyes were opened.”
So the serpent told the truth and showed up God to be a liar.
[Verse 22]
And God said “The man has now become like one of us [a god?] he must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat , and live for ever”
Adam and Eve were banished from the garden of Eden
So if God created man in his own image, he did not want man to be as clever as he was
- A jealous God |
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fish5133
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:13 am Post subject: |
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Still cant find any apple in Genesis.(actual or metaphor) Its myth that the fruit of the tree was an apple could have been anything.
| Quote: | | So the serpent told the truth and showed up God to be a liar. |
The serpent lied because God did not say ,as the serpent suggests,
'Did God really say that you must not eat from any tree in the garden?'
The prohibition was on a specific tree (real or metaphor)
| Quote: | | So if God created man in his own image, he did not want man to be as clever as he was |
Quite possible and maybe for good reason. There is obviously a lot going on in the spiritual realm that may not be beneficial . It may also have been a test of obedience which raises the question if Adam and Eve were created perfect could they be disobedient. This then touches on the whole area of free will.
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JO911B.
"for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of the darkness of this world, against wicked spirits in high places " Eph.6 v 12 |
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Barker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Still can't find any apple in Genesis.(actual or metaphor) Its myth that the fruit of the tree was an apple could have been anything. |
I agree, it does not specify apple, but says 'fruit' three times. So what kind of fruit could it be that opens the eyes of Adam and Eve? Could it have been a psychoactive, mind expanding substance which gave them this insight? These were widely available in the Middle East 2000 BC.
Rastafarians believe that this refers to the cannabis plant, and that the fruit refers to the buds. It may not look like a fruit, but eating it gives an altered state of consciousness. The cannabis sativa plant grows as big as a small tree.
[When the woman saw the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and desirable for attaining wisdom she took some and ate it]
| Quote: | | Did God really say that you must not eat from any tree in the garden?' |
The serpent is asking a question. I understand this as meaning the serpent is asking 'Is there any tree in the garden which God says you cannot eat?
Eve then specifies which tree: the one that is in the middle of the garden.
Last edited by Barker on Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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scienceplease 2
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Joined: 06 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Calling a deer, a horse...
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China's first emperor Qin Shihuang died in 209 BC. Shortly after his death, a treacherous eunuch named Zhao Gao enticed Huhai, the emperor's youngest son, to kill his oldest brother, the successor to the throne, and helped him to become emperor. Later the young emperor killed all his remaining 12 brothers and ten sisters on the suggestion of Zhao Gao in order to consolidate his position. After that, Zhao Gao, through intrigue, killed the prime minister and took over his post.
The young emperor Huhai was a muddle-headed and incompetent ruler. Zhao Gao could do whatever he liked. He became so ambitious that he finally plotted to usurp the throne. But he was afraid that the other court officials wouldn/t obey him. To test whether or not they were loyal to him, Zhao Gao presented a stag to the young emperor one day and deliberately said it was a horse.
"Are you kidding?" the young emperor laughed. "You're calling a stag a horse!"
Zhao Gao insisted that it was a horse. He then asked the other officials' opinion. He said, in a threatening tone, "I said it was a horse. What would you say?"
Some officials kept silent because they were afraid of being persecuted by Zhao Gao. Some said yes just to flatter him. "Yes, your Highness, it's a horse". "It's nothing but a horse." But there were upright officials who spoke the truth. In the end, none of these officials could escape persecution by Zhao Gao.
This story was later condensed into the idiom Zhǐ Lù Wéi Mǎ 指鹿为马 . Point at a deer and call it a horse. It is to describe someone who confuses right and wrong by misrepresenting something deliberately. |
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Barker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The story is to show the beginnings of the universal fallen nature of man through temptation by the serpent ( using mind gate, ear gate and eye gate in Bunyans Holy War language) and disobedience to his/her creator .
Should we not have guilt if we steal or murder? |
Suppose I don't accept all this fallen nature philosophy, and suppose we are here on earth to seek enlightenment. Then we become responsible for our own actions. If I steal or murder then I expect to accept the consequences.
To me that is quite different to being told that a story written in a book 3-4 thousand years ago should make me irretrievably guilty for something I personally had nothing to do with. |
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Barker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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To go back top the original title of the thread 'collective guilt' - am I supposed to feel guilty about the deaths of jewish civilans during the war?
The country I live in, fought against Germany from the beginning to the end and suffered many civilian deaths in the process. The Jews were a dominant cultural force in Germany for 300 years. I don't see that I need have any guilt on that score, regardless of how many h****st programmes and articles I am exposed to. |
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Frank Freedom
Mind Gamer
Joined: 01 Feb 2009
Posts: 413
Location: South Essex
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| Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Barker wrote: | To go back top the original title of the thread 'collective guilt' - am I supposed to feel guilty about the deaths of jewish civilans during the war?
The country I live in, fought against Germany from the beginning to the end and suffered many civilian deaths in the process. The Jews were a dominant cultural force in Germany for 300 years. I don't see that I need have any guilt on that score, regardless of how many h****st programmes and articles I am exposed to. |
We are labelled anti-semites for that view,and terrorist sympathisers for the plight of Palestinians.How odd?
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Barker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
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I feel sympathy for people who lost family members during ‘the war’ or for that matter who have lost family members in any war. This does not mean that I need to feel guilt about that suffering or for those deaths. I feel compassion for the suffering that has been caused.
This raises issues around the difference between Judaism and other religious traditions. My view is that our purpose in life is to seek enlightenment. It is up to each individual to discover for themselves what enlightenment means to them.
For many, enlightenment means a state of happiness, unburdening one’s attachment to guilt, regret, anger, desire for revenge, and fear.
Is there any guidance for this in the Old Testament? may be but I have not been able to find it.
Then there is the question of an afterlife. Judaism does not seem to accept the possibility of an afterlife, whereas as most other faiths do seem to accept the possibility of an existence beyond death. and part of the goal is to achieve a tranquility in our present life which will ensure a comfortable passage to the afterlife.
Afterlife -- what does it mean? Maybe best described as mind without a body,
The the vibrations created during our life on earth continuing and reverberating in the universe. If I like to have those thoughts, I cannot find a place for feeling guilty for events that happened before I was born. |
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Andrew.
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Joined: 27 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Which is why Rabbi Wise said that, "some call it Judaism, I call it Marxism." |
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