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scubadiver
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 Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: evidence pointing to Government complicity |
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1. Removal of steel from a crime scene is a federal offence. After all the Arab hijackers were criminal conspirators and did commit a crime - allegedly. Why hasn't Giuliani been charged with the illegal removal of evidence?
2. The claim that the black boxes were never found. They were found but mysteriously disappeared. The first thing that happens in an aircraft investigation is the search and analysis of black boxes. We all know WHAT happened but not WHY. Why has the FAA never produced a report on 9/11?
3. 15 exercise drills on 9/11 in the North East Defence Sector, removing planes from the NY and Washington to as far away as Iceland, Alaska and Canada.
4. Bush's extreme reluctance to hold a 9/11 Commission and gave far less money than was used in the Clinton impeachment. It only happened at the insistence of victims relatives.
5. Its interesting that Rumsfeld (or Cheney, cant remember which) admitted on the 10th that the Pentagon had misappropriated 3 trillion dollars. The 11th was obviously a good day for burying bad news. The part of the Pentagon that was attacked just happened to be used for military budgets, accountancy and book-keeping.
6. The Put Options - It turns out that the business that did the put options on Morgan Stanley, American Airlines and United Airlines used to be headed by "Buzzy" Krongard - No3 in the CIA. No one has ever claimed the profits.
7. Do you think that a devout Muslim would eat Pork, gamble and go to strip joints just before killing himself. Thats exactly what Mohammed Atta did. Most of the hijackers were associated with military addresses and US airforce bases and had been recognised by military personnel.
A last one... the date
September 11th 1941 - The ground breaking ceremony of the Pentagon.
September 11th 1973 - Allende is killed in a CIA backed coup in Chile
September 11th 1990 - George HW Bush outlines his "new world order".
September 11th 1998 - Kenneth Starr sent his report to Congress outlining his 11 charges of impeachment against Clinton.
Feel free to have a discussion!
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IronSnot
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 595
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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September 10th, overcast in much of the northeast US. Intermittent rain.
September 11th, beautiful day. |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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I am so happy with the lack of a response to this.
I thought we would have had to put up with more of a fight!
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: evidence pointing to Government complicity |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | 1. Removal of steel from a crime scene is a federal offence. After all the Arab hijackers were criminal conspirators and did commit a crime - allegedly. Why hasn't Giuliani been charged with the illegal removal of evidence? |
Maybe because it's not true? First, the steel wasn’t entirely cleared from the site until May 2002, that's 8 months.
Secondly, the recycling did not happen before investigators had the chance to look at the debris. Here’s Dr W. Gene Corley, head of the Building Performance Assessment Team, in his testimony to the House of Representatives:
| Quote: | "There has been some concern expressed by others that the work of the team has been hampered because debris was removed from the site and has subsequently been processed for recycling. This is not the case. The team has had full access to the scrap yards and to the site and has been able to obtain numerous samples. At this point there is no indication that having access to each piece of steel from the World Trade Center would make a significant difference to understanding the performance of the structures".
www.house.gov/science/hearings/full02/mar06/corley.htm |
So now you can change your mind...right? 
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2. The claim that the black boxes were never found. They were found but mysteriously disappeared. The first thing that happens in an aircraft investigation is the search and analysis of black boxes. We all know WHAT happened but not WHY. Why has the FAA never produced a report on 9/11? |
The Flight 93 flight data recorders were recovered. The Flight 77 black boxes were also removed from the Pentagon, but were too badly damaged to be used. The only boxes not to be recovered were from the World Trade Centre impacts, however that's also the most extreme situation (and if they were caught in the collapse then there's little chance of them surviving).
And were they expected to be found at the time? Well, not by everyone:
So it's not surprising really that they didn't survive. Hell it's surprising that engineers can design the things to survive most crashes in the first place! However, since we haven't yet learned how to build a black box recorder out of kryptonite...that means it's a conspiracy!!! Yeah, riiiight.
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3. 15 exercise drills on 9/11 in the North East Defence Sector, removing planes from the NY and Washington to as far away as Iceland, Alaska and Canada.
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No there weren't. An exageration is not evidence.
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4. Bush's extreme reluctance to hold a 9/11 Commission and gave far less money than was used in the Clinton impeachment. It only happened at the insistence of victims relatives. |
nor is "reluctance" evidence.
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5. Its interesting that Rumsfeld (or Cheney, cant remember which) admitted on the 10th that the Pentagon had misappropriated 3 trillion dollars. The 11th was obviously a good day for burying bad news. The part of the Pentagon that was attacked just happened to be used for military budgets, accountancy and book-keeping. |
I can't find any source...what is your source?
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6. The Put Options - It turns out that the business that did the put options on Morgan Stanley, American Airlines and United Airlines used to be headed by "Buzzy" Krongard - No3 in the CIA. No one has ever claimed the profits. |
Again, source?
The link? It seems A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard (executive director at the CIA) was Vice Chairman of Banker's Trust-AB Brown up until 1998, when he left. We might have thought the link expired at that point, but apparently we're supposed to believe it was still significant. Why, though? If, let's say, Government conspirators wanted to engage in a perfectly legal transaction to purchase put options in United and American Airlines, then why would it matter which bank they used? Especially if you're assuming they had enough power to block any investigation?
Presumably the explanation would be that people at this bank would be willing to help the CIA profit from the deaths of thousands of American citizens. Uh-huh. Is there any evidence for this, though? None whatsoever, and it seems unlikely as now Bankers Trust was part of another company. It was acquired by Deutche Bank in 1999.[/quote]
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7. Do you think that a devout Muslim would eat Pork, gamble and go to strip joints just before killing himself. Thats exactly what Mohammed Atta did. Most of the hijackers were associated with military addresses and US airforce bases and had been recognised by military personnel. |
Your proof that he infact did all that? Are you sure? If so list sources so I can check them. Most of the info I could find on this were merely instances of mistaken identity.
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A last one... the date
September 11th 1941 - The ground breaking ceremony of the Pentagon.
September 11th 1973 - Allende is killed in a CIA backed coup in Chile
September 11th 1990 - George HW Bush outlines his "new world order".
September 11th 1998 - Kenneth Starr sent his report to Congress outlining his 11 charges of impeachment against Clinton.
Feel free to have a discussion!
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Absurd data mining.
September 11, 1921: Fatty Arbuckle arrested!!
I guess poor Fatty knew too much about the cabal's plans eh?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Leiff
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I can help with no.5, it was Rumsfeld and $2.3 trillion.
Click the CBS news link on the left for a video report.
http://www.whereisthemoney.org/ |
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Brainster
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Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Leiff wrote: | I can help with no.5, it was Rumsfeld and $2.3 trillion.
Click the CBS news link on the left for a video report.
http://www.whereisthemoney.org/ |
This is absolutely true, but of course, why was Rumsfeld announcing it? Was it part of some deep dark plot? Was he announcing it so that it would get buried in the next day's news? If that was the case, didn't it fail because CBS did this report on it years later? Wouldn't it have been easier not to announce it?
$2.3 trillion is a lot more than the annual budget of the Pentagon and Rumsfeld had been Secretary of Defense at that point for less than a year. Doesn't this indicate that the vast majority of the missing $2.3 trillion came under prior administrations? |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Doesn't this indicate that the vast majority of the missing $2.3 trillion came under prior administrations? |
A little research will tell you it was in the 4 year period period 1998-2001. This at a time when a man not even a fully committed American was at the helm in the Pentagon, having as he does, dual nationality. Guess the other nationality? The fact that CBS covered it (as well as many others) is hardly a sign of any great openness or honesty. Its pretty difficult to keep a lid on such an enormous theft. Getting something done about it is another thing of course and with all the damage to the records and personnel at the Pentagon on 9/11 will perhaps prove impossible. This sum of money is so scandalously huge it should be front page on all media regularly but has been relegated to insignificance by the mainstream media. I wonder why! And isn't it amazing that a source, so very easy to find, could not be found by Jay Ref to respond to this particular point. I wonder why!
Rabbi Steals $2.3 Trillion!
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4448
Better not mention this one. Anti Semitic stuff. Keep quiet and just let him get away with it. Its only $8,000 for every man, woman and child in the USA. |
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scubadiver
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: | | Quote: | | Doesn't this indicate that the vast majority of the missing $2.3 trillion came under prior administrations? |
A little research will tell you it was in the 4 year period period 1998-2001. This at a time when a man not even a fully committed American was at the helm in the Pentagon, having as he does, dual nationality. Guess the other nationality? The fact that CBS covered it (as well as many others) is hardly a sign of any great openness or honesty. Its pretty difficult to keep a lid on such an enormous theft. Getting something done about it is another thing of course and with all the damage to the records and personnel at the Pentagon on 9/11 will perhaps prove impossible. This sum of money is so scandalously huge it should be front page on all media regularly but has been relegated to insignificance by the mainstream media. I wonder why! And isn't it amazing that a source, so very easy to find, could not be found by Jay Ref to respond to this particular point. I wonder why! |
Perhaps because I'm honest and do not claim to know everything, or have time to research every dumb thing you idiots come up with? Maybe that's the reason?
In the meantime your post illuminates another tragic lack in the CTer mentality. "Its pretty difficult to keep a lid on such an enormous theft." Ahhh...but it's perfectly possible to blow up WTC 1, 2, 7 and The Pentagon in broad daylight and on live tv via controlled demolition, drones, and cruise missiles while stealing 7,000 truck loads of gold...all while standing down NORAD, planting airplane parts, sneaking passengers off planes and into limbo... and concocting fake Saudi terrorists in order to justify an attack on Iraq????
But covering up a budget shortfall at the Pentagon that the current administration could easily lay on the previous administration? Well that's just unreasonable!!! SHEESH! Our Reptilian/Jewish/NWO overlords are all powerful and yet strangely retarded at the same time....
Nice how the anti-semites and paranoid nutters have flocked around the CT cause. Very soon my efforts at instructing lurkers on the virtues of logic will be redundant. You guys are swiftly becoming parodies of yourselves.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="scubadiver"]I have done my best to counter at least some of the arguments here with internet sites:
Black boxes:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/black_box.html
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=2177
And if a black box didn't survive, then why should a passport which happens to incriminate one of the alleged suspects. | Quote: |
Perhaps it's because the passport was found prior to the collapse...while the black boxes were buried in the collapse...a pile that stayed burning for 3 months....maybe that's why?
Also, aircraft seats and even rubber life vests survived and were found blocks away....they too are more fragile than the blackbox...and prove that a thing like a passport could survive.
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All debunked already.... :yawn:
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Perhaps because I'm honest and do not claim to know everything, or have time to research every dumb thing you idiots come up with? Maybe that's the reason?
-z |
If you don't have time to do the research, why do you assume what we have researched is dumb?
Shot yourself in the foot maybe? |
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Jay Ref
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Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: |
Perhaps because I'm honest and do not claim to know everything, or have time to research every dumb thing you idiots come up with? Maybe that's the reason?
-z |
If you don't have time to do the research, why do you assume what we have researched is dumb? |
Because it is a very safe and logical assumption based on my experience with you folks. You are as a group; irrational, illogical, and impervious to knowledge or facts which don't support your prejudged "truth".
Not exactly stellar qualities to be looked for in researchers.
| Quote: |
Shot yourself in the foot maybe? |
How so? I'm not the one busily accusing people I don't know of the greatest mass murder in history without benefit of evidence...that's a job for you CTards.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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andyb
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Jay, thanks for all your input I really think by avoiding questions you are promtoing us brillaintly. Also by saying that you haven't even researched things as 'based on your experience we are irrational and illogical' There are certain arguments of that are irrational and illogical and you focus on these and throw insults at those who don't hold your beliefs.
Also, none of us here KNOW the truth, we are simply campaigning for an independent inquiry so we can learn the Truth. We may hypothesize around events but none of us here know the Truth or claim to do so.(Apart from you that is!)
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"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King |
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Jay Ref
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Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| andyb wrote: | Jay, thanks for all your input I really think by avoiding questions you are promtoing us brillaintly. Also by saying that you haven't even researched things as 'based on your experience we are irrational and illogical' There are certain arguments of that are irrational and illogical and you focus on these and throw insults at those who don't hold your beliefs.
Also, none of us here KNOW the truth, we are simply campaigning for an independent inquiry so we can learn the Truth. We may hypothesize around events but none of us here know the Truth or claim to do so.(Apart from you that is!) |
But you don't even know...can't even agree on what an "independent enquiry" would look like!! Who would pay for it? Who would be involved?
What would you investigate? Let me guess and you tell me if I'm right?
- How the demolition charges were smuggled into the WTC.
- How the passengers were removed and where they are now.
- How the WTC gold was stolen.
- How the drones were made and by whom.
- How the media has been subverted.
- Why Larry Silverstein was allowed to give the order to blow up WTC7.
- Who told NORAD to stand down.
I know there's more...but don't you think this would be a great start to an independent enquiry??
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | Because it is a very safe and logical assumption based on my experience with you folks. You are as a group; irrational, illogical, and impervious to knowledge or facts which don't support your prejudged "truth".
Not exactly stellar qualities to be looked for in researchers.
-z |
Everything that campaigners have researched are facts. Each fact maybe small but, collectively, it amounts to something very big.
What facts are you referring to? Curious. |
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Jay Ref
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Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | Because it is a very safe and logical assumption based on my experience with you folks. You are as a group; irrational, illogical, and impervious to knowledge or facts which don't support your prejudged "truth".
Not exactly stellar qualities to be looked for in researchers.
-z |
Everything that campaigners have researched are facts. Each fact maybe small but, collectively, it amounts to something very big.
What facts are you referring to? Curious. |
"Connecting the dots?" No it doesn't amount to anything big. They are finding things that support the CT while ignoring stuff that doesn't. It's called data mining. Counting the hits and ignoring the misses....that's how psychics claim accuracy. They rely on people to only remember the hits and forget the misses. It's why they talk so fast...more chances of hits...
Opening an investigation from the premise that we know what happened and will only look for evidence which supports the initial assumption is not the way scientists or criminal investigators do research. They may hold hunches or initial assumptions...but in the end they always follow the evidence...ALL of the evidence.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | scubadiver wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | Because it is a very safe and logical assumption based on my experience with you folks. You are as a group; irrational, illogical, and impervious to knowledge or facts which don't support your prejudged "truth".
Not exactly stellar qualities to be looked for in researchers.
-z |
Everything that campaigners have researched are facts. Each fact maybe small but, collectively, it amounts to something very big.
What facts are you referring to? Curious. |
"Connecting the dots?" No it doesn't amount to anything big. They are finding things that support the CT while ignoring stuff that doesn't. It's called data mining. Counting the hits and ignoring the misses....that's how psychics claim accuracy. They rely on people to only remember the hits and forget the misses. It's why they talk so fast...more chances of hits...
Opening an investigation from the premise that we know what happened and will only look for evidence which supports the initial assumption is not the way scientists or criminal investigators do research. They may hold hunches or initial assumptions...but in the end they always follow the evidence...ALL of the evidence.
-z |
I do agree on your 2nd paragraph entirely.
Having said that, I took 9/11 for granted that it was OBL who did it. I even said so to a friend in the stadium bar prior to a match on 9/11 (Reading were playing West Ham). I accepted it and didn't think much of it.
But I had watched Fahrenheit 9/11. It isn't a bad documentary but it did introduce me to the reasons why Iraq was invaded. Then, as time went on, I grew more sceptical.
Maybe you would like to start of my new thread on this particular forum by stating what facts you propose support the Government's assertions?
There seems to be a deathly silence among your group on this question. |
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alwun
Moderate Poster
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 282
Location: london
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: the missing link |
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Scubadiver poses a simple clear question – ‘what facts are you referring to?’
In reply Mr. J Ref’s opening gambit is typically a completely un-referenced non-grammatical, non-sequitur. "Connecting the dots?", he states, although he advises us that this is a question by including a question mark. He continues “No it doesn't amount to anything big. They are finding things that support the CT while ignoring stuff that doesn't.” This, he assures us, is nothing less than “data mining”. Data mining, Mr. J Ref maintains, is simply “Counting the hits and ignoring the misses…”
In support of this claim Mr. J Ref reminds us that “that's how psychics claim accuracy.” To help us assimilate this gem he flourishes his inside knowledge with the following statement. “They rely on people to only remember the hits and forget the misses.” He summarises triumphantly with the indisputably well-researched ‘fact’ – “ It's why they talk so fast...more chances of hits..”. Having clarified the dot connections, he moves on to more substantial material. He now cautions us that “Opening an investigation from the premise that we know what happened and will only look for evidence which supports the initial assumption is not the way scientists or criminal investigators do research.” We, however, are still waiting for an answer to scubadiver’s question. Will it come? Not yet. We are left with the following cliffhanger. “They may hold hunches or initial assumptions...but in the end they always follow the evidence...ALL of the evidence.” All of those words, and no straight answer. Taken as a whole, Mr. J Ref’s writings are completely bereft of cohesion, and in fact border on the incoherent. Note that he makes no attempt to answer the question, but instead tells us all we ever need to know about ‘psychics’ and their professional secrets.
Cheers Al |
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scubadiver
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Cheers Al,
couldn't have put it clearer myself!
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alwun
Moderate Poster
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 282
Location: london
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:02 am Post subject: Mr Jref replies |
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It was my pleasure. I may take the writings of Jref as a case study. I should say here that I know by now that I will not be engaging in any further debate with Jerf, as you probably noted. I will, however offer my dispassionate appreciation and understanding of his texts, perhaps in another thread, sometime. His texts are truly incredible, a gift, wondrous to behold.
cheers Al. |
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scubadiver
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Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:17 am Post subject: |
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A case study of what I may ask?
"How to create a pointless argument look good"?
He would make a great politician!! |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:32 am Post subject: |
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Hey JRef notice something on the ceiling? Better give those eyes a rest or you'll get dizzy. 
_________________
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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