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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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 Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
No. I don't recognize them at all. They both involve aircraft. Is there some other similarity you could point to?
Do you see any logistical problems with carrying this type of thing out in NYC and DC as opposed to over the ocean?
Do you see any problems convincing people to take part in something like this if it involved killing 3000 citizens as opposed to making painstaking efforts to avoid actual casualties?
This could hardly be more dissimilar to 9/11. |
You seriously disappoint me CS. I thought you were well read in 911. You've just made it clear that the first time you ever probably heard of Northwoods was when one of those shill websites attempted to 'debunk' it.
If YOU were well researched and actually LOOKED at Northwoods, you would notice that it also proposes launching a terror campaign in Miami as a pretext to invading Cuba.
Now, i am getting really fed up with you and Gravy on this issue. You both keep trying to deny the importance of this document by saying "Oh, i doesnt mirror 911 exactly so why bring it up?"
FOR THE LAST F**KING TIME. IT SHOWS THAT PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY ARE WILLING TO CARRY OUT FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS!!!!
UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!
IT IS NOT A PLAN TO CARRY OUT 911!!!!!
IT IS A PLAN TO CARRY OUT 911 STYLE FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS!!!!
_________________
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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What's your analysis?
Do you believe it to be genuine?
Do you recognise the differences between this alleged image of Osama and other commonly accepted genuine images of Osama?
Thanks |
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blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.ict.org.il/spotlight/det.cfm?id=688
| Quote: | October 10, 2001
Statements by Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants released by al-Jazeera satellite TV
Osama bin Laden issued a dramatic videotaped statement on Sunday praising the September 11 suicide-hijackers and claiming that "America is filled with fear." In keeping with his tradition of keeping an element of deniability to his activities, bin Laden did not directly claim responsibility for the Black Tuesday attacks.
"America has been filled with horror from north to south and east to west, and thanks be to God what America is tasting now is only a copy of what we have tasted. Our Islamic nation has been tasting the same for more 80 years," he said. "God has blessed a group of vanguard Muslims to destroy America ... and may God bless them and allot them a supreme place in heaven." America, he claimed, "will never dream of security" until "the infidels' armies leave the land of Muhammad."
The video was release two hours after the start of the military operation, but had obviously been filmed some time before. Al-Jazeera said the film was videotaped after September 11 but did not give a specific date. The Qatar-based independent TV network has frequently aired exclusive footage of bin Laden, prompting the United States to raise concerns about the station's coverage during a meeting with the emir of Qatar in Washington on Wednesday.
The video opened with a statement by al-Qaida spokesman, Sulaiman Abu Ghaith. "What happened in the United States is a natural reaction to the ignorant policy of the United States," said Abu Ghaith. "If it continues with this policy, the sons of Islam will not stop their struggle. The American people have to know that what is happening to them now is the result of their support of this policy. The war against Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden is a war on Islam."
Ayman Zawahri, bin Laden's second-in-command, and leader of Egypt's Islamic Jihad, appeared in the videotape and urged Muslims to take up arms against America. Zawahri, once tried in Egypt and jailed for three years for his part in the 1981 assassination of President Anwar Sadat, has been linked to some of the suspects in the September 11 attacks.
"People of America, your government is leading you into a losing battle," al-Zawahri said. "Remember that your government was defeated in Vietnam, fled in panic from Lebanon, rushed out of Somalia and was slapped across the face in Aden. Your government today is leading you into a losing war, where you will lose your sons and your money."
In keeping with his practice of keeping an element of deniability for his actions, bin Ladin praised the September 11 attacks, but stopped short of direclty claiming responsibility. "God has blessed a group of vanguard Muslims to destroy America ... and may God bless them and allot them a supreme place in heaven," he said.
Bin Ladin's statement, though ostensibly directed at Americans, was primarily aimed at Muslim populations in the countries upon which the U.S.-led coalition depends for logistic support. In the battle for the hearts and minds of Muslims worldwide, bin Laden linked his Jihad with the Palestinian conflict, saying, "I swear to God that America will never dream of security or see it before we live it and see it in Palestine, and not before the infidels' armies leave the land of Muhammad, peace be upon him," bin Laden declared.
Bin Laden has been criticized by many of his constituents for neglecting the Palestinian issue in favor of his primary goal of ousting U.S. forces from Saudi Arabia. |
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chipmunk stew
Moderate Poster
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
No. I don't recognize them at all. They both involve aircraft. Is there some other similarity you could point to?
Do you see any logistical problems with carrying this type of thing out in NYC and DC as opposed to over the ocean?
Do you see any problems convincing people to take part in something like this if it involved killing 3000 citizens as opposed to making painstaking efforts to avoid actual casualties?
This could hardly be more dissimilar to 9/11. |
You seriously disappoint me CS. I thought you were well read in 911. You've just made it clear that the first time you ever probably heard of Northwoods was when one of those shill websites attempted to 'debunk' it.
If YOU were well researched and actually LOOKED at Northwoods, you would notice that it also proposes launching a terror campaign in Miami as a pretext to invading Cuba.
Now, i am getting really fed up with you and Gravy on this issue. You both keep trying to deny the importance of this document by saying "Oh, i doesnt mirror 911 exactly so why bring it up?"
FOR THE LAST F**KING TIME. IT SHOWS THAT PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY ARE WILLING TO CARRY OUT FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS!!!!
UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!
IT IS NOT A PLAN TO CARRY OUT 911!!!!!
IT IS A PLAN TO CARRY OUT 911 STYLE FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS!!!! |
It's not 9/11-style at all, though. Every suggestion takes pains to avoid casualties as much as possible. The furthest it goes in suggesting intentional casualties is "wounding" a Cuban refugee.
9/11 was an attack designed to inflict spectacular damage and kill large numbers of people.
The document proposed a "terror campaign", but based on the other suggestions, there's no reason to believe that this would have been anything more than staged kidnappings or hostage taking and perhaps blowing up some unoccupied buildings or vehicles.
Unless you have something substantial that links the Northwoods authors to 9/11, the document is irrelevant. |
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chipmunk stew
Moderate Poster
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ian neal wrote: |
What's your analysis?
Do you believe it to be genuine?
Do you recognise the differences between this alleged image of Osama and other commonly accepted genuine images of Osama?
Thanks |
I believe it to be genuine.
I recognize that some stills taken out of context look very different from other images of OBL. Do you recognize that many other stills look quite the same?
Also, the men shown with Bin Laden are seen with him elsewhere, and they also look quite the same. You're asking me to entertain the idea that the CIA (or whoever) was able to find several willing actors who looked, sounded, and acted, with amazing accuracy, like Osama and his fellows, preparing them and taping them and planting the tape within three months of 9/11. Think of the logistics involved. |
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jason67
Moderate Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 129
Location: SE London
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | | DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
No. I don't recognize them at all. They both involve aircraft. Is there some other similarity you could point to?
Do you see any logistical problems with carrying this type of thing out in NYC and DC as opposed to over the ocean?
Do you see any problems convincing people to take part in something like this if it involved killing 3000 citizens as opposed to making painstaking efforts to avoid actual casualties?
This could hardly be more dissimilar to 9/11. |
You seriously disappoint me CS. I thought you were well read in 911. You've just made it clear that the first time you ever probably heard of Northwoods was when one of those shill websites attempted to 'debunk' it.
If YOU were well researched and actually LOOKED at Northwoods, you would notice that it also proposes launching a terror campaign in Miami as a pretext to invading Cuba.
Now, i am getting really fed up with you and Gravy on this issue. You both keep trying to deny the importance of this document by saying "Oh, i doesnt mirror 911 exactly so why bring it up?"
FOR THE LAST F**KING TIME. IT SHOWS THAT PEOPLE IN THE MILITARY ARE WILLING TO CARRY OUT FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS!!!!
UNDERSTAND!!!!!!!
IT IS NOT A PLAN TO CARRY OUT 911!!!!!
IT IS A PLAN TO CARRY OUT 911 STYLE FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS!!!! |
It's not 9/11-style at all, though. Every suggestion takes pains to avoid casualties as much as possible. The furthest it goes in suggesting intentional casualties is "wounding" a Cuban refugee.
9/11 was an attack designed to inflict spectacular damage and kill large numbers of people.
The document proposed a "terror campaign", but based on the other suggestions, there's no reason to believe that this would have been anything more than staged kidnappings or hostage taking and perhaps blowing up some unoccupied buildings or vehicles.
Unless you have something substantial that links the Northwoods authors to 9/11, the document is irrelevant. |
I'm afraid that if you really believe that the sole purpose of 911 was to kill large numbers of people that you are badly mistaken.
If the '19 arabs' (who had for so long planned this event) had wanted to inflict maximum damage (which surely they did) then why fly 2 planes into wtc1 &wtc2 at that time in the morning? Couldn't they have waited another hour when the 2 buildings would be full?
The point being is that 911 and the Northwoods documents are related because of the outcome, we now have our "terror campaign" |
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blackcat
Validated Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 2376
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | looked, sounded, and acted, with amazing accuracy, like Osama and his fellows |
"with amazing accuracy"!!! You're having a larfff aintcha!! 
I like the bit where he mentions expecting or hoping the jet fuel would melt the steel and cause the upper part to collapse. What a guy - why its almost like he is trying to explain how the tower collapsed isn't it?!!!! Funny the official report said something similar. |
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Leiff
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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chipmunk stew wrote:
'You're asking me to entertain the idea that the CIA (or whoever) was able to find several willing actors who looked, sounded, and acted, with amazing accuracy, like Osama and his fellows, preparing them and taping them and planting the tape within three months of 9/11. Think of the logistics involved.'
The perpetrators of 9/11 could have been preparing the bin Laden video prior to 9/11. |
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jason67
Moderate Poster
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 129
Location: SE London
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: | | Quote: | | looked, sounded, and acted, with amazing accuracy, like Osama and his fellows |
"with amazing accuracy"!!! You're having a larfff aintcha!!
I like the bit where he mentions expecting or hoping the jet fuel would melt the steel and cause the upper part to collapse. What a guy - why its almost like he is trying to explain how the tower collapsed isn't it?!!!! Funny the official report said something similar. |
Oh yes! What a guy OBL is! |
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freddie
Moderate Poster
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 202
Location: London
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Leiff's point is perfectly valid, however I would like to question the very reasoning you employed here;
Chipmunk wrote:
| Quote: | | within three months of 9/11. Think of the logistics involved.' |
I don't get your logic on this one. By your estimations, faking a video tape takes how many man hours? - and also, think about your reasoning here - The US had moved thousands of troops and vehicles to the area in less time; think of the logistics involved!
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
It's not 9/11-style at all, though.
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You still dont get it. I BELIEVE that 911 was a false falg operation to fascilitate war. Understand?
Northwoods was a flase flag operation designed to fascilitate war. Notice the similarity now? The similarity is not in the operational NATURE of the plan, but the INTENT of the plan.
Jeez. 
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
Every suggestion takes pains to avoid casualties as much as possible. The furthest it goes in suggesting intentional casualties is "wounding" a Cuban refugee.
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IT WAS TO START A WAR!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT NORMALLY HAPPENS IN WARS???!!!!?!?!?
Bloody hell man! I thought you were smart.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
The document proposed a "terror campaign", but based on the other suggestions, there's no reason to believe that this would have been anything more than staged kidnappings or hostage taking and perhaps blowing up some unoccupied buildings or vehicles.
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Listen man. I like debating stuff with you. I do. I think you are generally OK. But when you start unnecessarily minimising the nature of a STAGED TERROR CAMPAIGN without any justification to do so, i kind of get pi**ed off. The word that IMMEDIATELY springs to mind is 'apologist'.
You seems to think that the military causing TERROR on its own people is no big thing and that really is quite wrong. I think you need to get a grip on yourself and admit that faking terror on your own people is about the worst thing anyone in a position of power could do.
Besides, look at the track record of the CIA and American military in general. Any number of lives can and would be expended if needed to acomplish a task
COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
Unless you have something substantial that links the Northwoods authors to 9/11, the document is irrelevant. |
I really didnt want to have to use this word but i think you have blinded yourself to the state of the world.
This statement by you is an example of someone having a cold hard fact presented to them that doesnt fit with their thinking so they dismiss it out of hand.
If this document was signed "Much regards. Osama Bin Laden", you'd be shoving it down our throats.
I really am concidering not responding to your posts because i'm starting to think that you arent capable of critical thinking after all.
_________________
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Mark Gobell
On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 4529
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Critical Thinking
Maybe some of us have become accomplices of their suggestion that these "critical thinkers" actually employ critical thinking in their posts.
I certainly admit to intially assuming that their claim to apply critical thinking would manifest itself as the ability to critically think about all aspects of an argument.
However, I now contend that the evidence does not support this assumption.
I would argue that the evidence shown by their posts proves that the only critical thinking that these people seem to be applying is against our argument that all is not well with the official story of 9/11.
If you have the patience and tenacity to engage them then I am sure that the process can only benefit us because it will force us to further examine and refine our ideas.
Also, the manner of the posts, attitude, disrespect, dogmatism, insults, refusal to answer salient points are clearly on view for all to see and for those readers to form their own opinions as to the veracity of their claim to be students of the school of "critical thinking".
If there is any evidence contained in the "critical thinkers" posts that proves they are applying critical thinking to the official story of 9/11 then I have yet to see it.
Until I do see any evidence that they are applying thier self proclaimed faculties of critical thinking to both sides of the argument I will continue to challenge said claim as an unsupportable lie.
Supported by the growing body of evidence contained in their posts within this forum.
If I am correct in my assertion that critical thinking is not being applied then the only question remaining to be proved is what is their motive ?
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The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
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chipmunk stew
Moderate Poster
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
It's not 9/11-style at all, though.
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You still dont get it. I BELIEVE that 911 was a false falg operation to fascilitate war. Understand?
Northwoods was a flase flag operation designed to fascilitate war. Notice the similarity now? The similarity is not in the operational NATURE of the plan, but the INTENT of the plan.
Jeez. |
I understand perfectly. The document becomes relevant only after you adopt the belief that 9/11 was a false flag op.
It's not evidence. It's ad hoc reasoning. |
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kbo234
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Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 2017
Location: Croydon, Surrey
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | | It's not evidence. It's ad hoc reasoning. |
Actually it is evidence. It is evidence that US military planners are quite capable of submitting plans that kill innocents in order to create the political climate they desire.
It is no news at all though really. It has happened so many times all over the world. False Flag terrorism is a well-established part of international governments' (of many nations) operations. Northwoods, like the attack on US destroyers in the Gulf Of Tonking only demonstrates that the US is quite capable of creating this kind of stuff.
When Kenneth Haig put large vats of concentrated acid into his garage in Guildford, this was not particularly remarkable. When the gold teeth of missing women turned up in those vats, their installation told everyone that his crimes were very calculated indeed. Call that ad hoc reasoning if you like.
It might not be the best parallel to draw, but it'll do. |
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scubadiver
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
Unless you have something substantial that links the Northwoods authors to 9/11, the document is irrelevant. |
That is getting a bit desperate don't you think? The US, as well as other countries, have a history of creating pretexts for their own ends.
World War 2 was started by of a false flag operation?
Hitler got people to dress German soldiers up in Polish uniforms and have them shot near a radio station near the Polish border to create a pretext for invasion.
Or the Gulf of Tonkin incident that escalated Vietnam?
The bombing of Bologna station in 1980/1 was an inside job.
The Sharm El Sheikh bombing last year was suspected of being carried out by Intelligence operatives?
The Madrid bombing suspects were agents working for the Spanish bomb squad.
The alleged mastermind of the London bombing was a double agent working for MI6. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
Unless you have something substantial that links the Northwoods authors to 9/11, the document is irrelevant. |
That is getting a bit desperate don't you think? The US, as well as other countries, have a history of creating pretexts for their own ends. |
But that is not proof that 9/11 was a "pretext". The simple existence of an abortive "Northwoods" does not prove anything about 9/11 at all. It's once again another example of faulty logic. It's a kind of post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. By this logic it would be safe to assume that since most Catholic people die soon after they are read their last rites; that therefore Catholic priests are running around killing people with magic words!
| Quote: |
World War 2 was started by of a false flag operation?
Hitler got people to dress German soldiers up in Polish uniforms and have them shot near a radio station near the Polish border to create a pretext for invasion.
Or the Gulf of Tonkin incident that escalated Vietnam?
The bombing of Bologna station in 1980/1 was an inside job.
The Sharm El Sheikh bombing last year was suspected of being carried out by Intelligence operatives?
The Madrid bombing suspects were agents working for the Spanish bomb squad.
The alleged mastermind of the London bombing was a double agent working for MI6. |
All either unsubstantiated BS,...or half-truth. Either way none of the above has anything to do with the events of 9/11. If so please offer the evidence.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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chipmunk stew
Moderate Poster
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| kbo234 wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: | | It's not evidence. It's ad hoc reasoning. |
Actually it is evidence. It is evidence that US military planners are quite capable of submitting plans that kill innocents in order to create the political climate they desire.
It is no news at all though really. |
It's no news, I agree. It's also not evidence. It offers absolutely nothing to the question of whether or not 9/11, specifically, was a false flag op.
It may inspire people to ask whether or not 9/11 was a false flag op, but that's it.
It helps to answer the question: "Under certain circumstances, would they do it?"
It does nothing to answer the question: "In this specific situation, did they do it?"
Again, it's only AFTER concluding that 9/11 was an Inside Job that Northwoods bears any significance whatsoever to 9/11. |
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scubadiver
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1850
Location: Currently Andover
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