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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:33 pm Post subject: Why? |
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1.) Assuming that the government LIHOP/MIHOP'ed the 9/11 attacks in order to create a premise for the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq...
Why did they use Saudi, Egyptian, Lebanese attackers? Why didn't they use Iraqi and Afghan hijackers? This makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to anyone else? If so, why?
2.) If the WTC towers were wired for demolition, why chance flying planes into them? Why not just set them off at night when there is little chance of the detonations being filmed or even witnessed by very many people and then blaming it on UBL?
Why did they need the planes?
3.) Flight 93...why wasn't it allowed to hit a target? This makes no sense as a LIHOP/MIHOP. Why divert and land the plane just to disappear the passengers? OR, why crash/shootdown/or fake the Shanksville crash? It seems to me that in a LIHOP/MIHOP scenario the plane should have reached it's target. Hence the hole in the field in Shanksville seems pretty senseless.
Why?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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blackcat
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Joined: 07 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds like we need an enquiry!!! |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: | | Sounds like we need an enquiry!!! |
Start an enquiry based on an a-priori assumption of MIHOP/LIHOP without the slightest shred of evidence?
Why not argue to have an independent enquiry into the reasons why government scientists created Bigfoot??
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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freddie
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Joined: 21 Feb 2006
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Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Start an enquiry based on an a-priori assumption of MIHOP/LIHOP without the slightest shred of evidence? |
Of course not! - Likewise they shouldn't have conducted an investigation based on the a-priori assumption of 19 arabs linked to and lead by OBL
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Why did they use Saudi, Egyptian, Lebanese attackers? Why didn't they use Iraqi and Afghan hijackers? This makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to anyone else? If so, why?
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Perhaps to emphasize the need for a wider war against Islam itself. Also, if they had used Iraqis with the intention of blaming Sadam, poeple would have immediately pointed out how BL and Sadam hate each other. Either way, the HOW of 911 is more important than the WHY, at least in terms of analysing the evidence.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
2.) If the WTC towers were wired for demolition, why chance flying planes into them? Why not just set them off at night when there is little chance of the detonations being filmed or even witnessed by very many people and then blaming it on UBL?
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Setting them off at night with no witnesses completely wastes the oportunity to shock the entire world in to action. And how on earth could they have made up the story that BL somehow wired the buildings for demolition?
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Why did they need the planes?
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This is about fear. The fear of terrorism, muslims, arabs, and the political power gained from that fear. The idea of hijackings and plane crashes are terrifying to a lot of people. Take 7/7. The fear factor was increased by attacking public transport.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
3.) Flight 93...why wasn't it allowed to hit a target? This makes no sense as a LIHOP/MIHOP. Why divert and land the plane just to disappear the passengers? OR, why crash/shootdown/or fake the Shanksville crash? It seems to me that in a LIHOP/MIHOP scenario the plane should have reached it's target. Hence the hole in the field in Shanksville seems pretty senseless.
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I myself am very confused about flight 93. At first i believed it was shot down by pilots disobeying orders but there seems a lot more to it than that. (though i certainly do not believe that it landed at any airport.)
That crash seen is very strange. I know you wont agree but i'm just telling you where i'm coming from. That hole in the ground does not seem like a plane crashed there at all. Also the phone calls supposedly made from that plane do not make sense whatsoever. Not only is it unlikely that phone calls could be made at that altitude, but the conversations were very odd indeed. Also, the second series of audio tapes played at the Musawi trial really are ridiculous. There is audio of a conversation between the passengers discussing using a food trolley to break through the cockpit door. We are told this was recorded using the inflight cockpit voice recorder, but there is a major problem with this, the cockpit voice recorder does not record audio from outside the cockpit.
Also, that flight, just like all the others that day, were made easier to hijack because the cockpit doors were unlocked. This goes completely against FAA regulations. And this happened on ALL the planes? Come on...
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Start an enquiry based on an a-priori assumption of MIHOP/LIHOP without the slightest shred of evidence?
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No evidence? You really have cherry picked the info around 911.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Why not argue to have an independent enquiry into the reasons why government scientists created Bigfoot??
-z |
For god sake JR. You start this topic with some great questions but you just cant help reducing your comments to this childish rubbish again. What the hell man???
WHY POST HERE???
As soon as you start writing that cr&p poeple instantly ignore any relevence your comments may have had previously. You just turn people off.
So i ask you, why are you here? Is it to try to 'educate' us truthers or not? If it is, you are failing miserably. If you are just here because you want to vent your anger and frustration against us, dont bother. You'll only wind yourself up more while wasting your and our time.
Please JR. Try and be civil.
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Mission911
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Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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[quote] WHY POST HERE???
I completely agree DeFecTor !
What is this guy's motives ? Please tell us all, if you want to be critical than apply constructive & intelligent arguments, otherwise don't bother !! |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| freddie wrote: | | Quote: | | Start an enquiry based on an a-priori assumption of MIHOP/LIHOP without the slightest shred of evidence? |
Of course not! - Likewise they shouldn't have conducted an investigation based on the a-priori assumption of 19 arabs linked to and lead by OBL |
How do you know they did that? Looks to me like they followed the evidence of 19 Arabs instead of some weird and hopelessly complicated conspiracy.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: |
Why did they use Saudi, Egyptian, Lebanese attackers? Why didn't they use Iraqi and Afghan hijackers? This makes no sense to me. Does it make sense to anyone else? If so, why?
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Perhaps to emphasize the need for a wider war against Islam itself. Also, if they had used Iraqis with the intention of blaming Sadam, poeple would have immediately pointed out how BL and Sadam hate each other. Either way, the HOW of 911 is more important than the WHY, at least in terms of analysing the evidence. |
Sorry but that still makes no sense. Why even implicate UBL when what you really want is dirt on Saddam? Not only that, but if you are so craven as to murder thousands in broad daylight on national tv and get away with it...why on earth would you balk at "finding" some WMD stockpiles in the desert of Iraq?? It simply doesn't make any sense. Like the old saying says: "A leopard can't change it's spots." A vast conspiracy exercising covert power won't stop after a sincle success...no matter how spectacular.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
2.) If the WTC towers were wired for demolition, why chance flying planes into them? Why not just set them off at night when there is little chance of the detonations being filmed or even witnessed by very many people and then blaming it on UBL?
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Setting them off at night with no witnesses completely wastes the oportunity to shock the entire world in to action. And how on earth could they have made up the story that BL somehow wired the buildings for demolition?[/quote]
What? NYC waking to a great smoking hole where the WTC buildings were would somehow be less scary because it happened at night? You really think so? Why? Seems a win-win to me. They freak everyone out, get the Patriot Act signed into law, go to war....and guess what? No incriminating pics of "squibs" for the truthy few to glom onto. No visible pods on the not-767's...hell no 767's at all...blame it on a small convoy of explody Ryder trucks...it's cheaper and easier! Dust and darkness...perfect cover for a dirty deed.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Why did they need the planes?
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This is about fear. The fear of terrorism, muslims, arabs, and the political power gained from that fear. The idea of hijackings and plane crashes are terrifying to a lot of people. Take 7/7. The fear factor was increased by attacking public transport.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
3.) Flight 93...why wasn't it allowed to hit a target? This makes no sense as a LIHOP/MIHOP. Why divert and land the plane just to disappear the passengers? OR, why crash/shootdown/or fake the Shanksville crash? It seems to me that in a LIHOP/MIHOP scenario the plane should have reached it's target. Hence the hole in the field in Shanksville seems pretty senseless.
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I myself am very confused about flight 93. At first i believed it was shot down by pilots disobeying orders but there seems a lot more to it than that. (though i certainly do not believe that it landed at any airport.)
That crash seen is very strange. I know you wont agree but i'm just telling you where i'm coming from. That hole in the ground does not seem like a plane crashed there at all. Also the phone calls supposedly made from that plane do not make sense whatsoever. Not only is it unlikely that phone calls could be made at that altitude, but the conversations were very odd indeed. Also, the second series of audio tapes played at the Musawi trial really are ridiculous. There is audio of a conversation between the passengers discussing using a food trolley to break through the cockpit door. We are told this was recorded using the inflight cockpit voice recorder, but there is a major problem with this, the cockpit voice recorder does not record audio from outside the cockpit.
Also, that flight, just like all the others that day, were made easier to hijack because the cockpit doors were unlocked. This goes completely against FAA regulations. And this happened on ALL the planes? Come on...
[/quote]
Cockpit doors were not "hardened" till after 9/11. Also planes had never before been used by hijackers in that manner. Pre-9/11 you would cooperate with hijackers who claimed bombs. It's not that much of a reach that they gained access to the front office. Why is it you think it's more reasonable to posit drones, etc....the madcap CT's are far more silly in their wild conjectures. As for the phones calls...some were airfones which work regardless of altitude...besides, the fact that they made a big hole in mother earth would sort of speak to the fact that they were not always at high altitude.
I'm a private pilot. Back in 1995 I flew a friend of mine to a small airport near the Chesapeke Bay...on our way back he made and recv'd several calls. The only problem was that his call would bleed over onto the nav/com and feed into the speakers...annoying true...but impossible? Not nearly. We did this at a max altitude of 5,000ft AGL. Flight 93 could easily have flown for some time within range of cell towers. Also the aircraft's CVR picks up ambient noise...you can hear engine noises and alarms on CVR tapes. Why do you think an angry mob screaming and bashing the thin cockpit door with a drink cart would not be audible on the CVR??
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Start an enquiry based on an a-priori assumption of MIHOP/LIHOP without the slightest shred of evidence?
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No evidence? You really have cherry picked the info around 911.[/quote]
No. It's you folks that do that. You are basically doing what Bush did ala WMD. You are starting from a premise that "It is how I believe it to be!" then you go forth to prove it. This is what Bush did...no difference at all. But at least Bush learned something...even he will not tell you now that he thinks Saddam had WMD's.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Why not argue to have an independent enquiry into the reasons why government scientists created Bigfoot??
-z |
For god sake JR. You start this topic with some great questions but you just cant help reducing your comments to this childish rubbish again. What the hell man???
WHY POST HERE???
As soon as you start writing that cr&p poeple instantly ignore any relevence your comments may have had previously. You just turn people off. [/quote]
Because it's simply the best way to describe what you lot are doing. It's silly...it's no less silly than my bigfoot analogy. Starting an enquiry from the point that it's an inside job, let's prove it is exactly akin to saying bigfoot is an inside job, let's prove it....or a unicorn's horn is made of candy corn, let's prove it!! First you must have evidence that a unicorn, a bigfoot, or an inside job exists. There is none...and what's more...at some level you even know it. To say you are tilting at windmills would be a vast understatement!
| Quote: |
So i ask you, why are you here? Is it to try to 'educate' us truthers or not? If it is, you are failing miserably. If you are just here because you want to vent your anger and frustration against us, dont bother. You'll only wind yourself up more while wasting your and our time.
Please JR. Try and be civil. |
I believe in promoting critical thinking...and I'm amused at people who believe crazy things. Therefore I do this in order to help lurkers see your arguments in the light they deserve to be seen...and it's fun for me! Win-win. 
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Sorry but that still makes no sense. Why even implicate UBL when what you really want is dirt on Saddam? Not only that, but if you are so craven as to murder thousands in broad daylight on national tv and get away with it...why on earth would you balk at "finding" some WMD stockpiles in the desert of Iraq?? It simply doesn't make any sense. Like the old saying says: "A leopard can't change it's spots." A vast conspiracy exercising covert power won't stop after a sincle success...no matter how spectacular.
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Man, you really arent that bright are you? They went in to Iraq REGARDLESS of WMD's or Sadams connections to 911.
911 was designed to force the concept of international terrorism, terrorism without borders, in to the public mind. It had nothing to do with Sadam.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
What? NYC waking to a great smoking hole where the WTC buildings were would somehow be less scary because it happened at night? You really think so?
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Jesus, you REALLY arent that bright. OF COURSE it was scarier. I myself was utterly shocked, close to paralysis by the live tv events of 911. If you cant see how having a terror attack play live on tv is more terrifying than some pre-recorded footage then you might aswel forget trying to understand 911.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Cockpit doors were not "hardened" till after 9/11.
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Yet another example of the twisting of evidence to fit your story. It stated in the 911 commission report that all four planes had their cockpit doors unlocked contrary to FAA regulations.
I said nothing about 'hardened' doors.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Also planes had never before been used by hijackers in that manner. Pre-9/11 you would cooperate with hijackers who claimed bombs. It's not that much of a reach that they gained access to the front office.
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So you honestly think that some pasty hijackers could really overcome the entire flight crews of four separate airplanes, many of whome were ex-military, with f**king BOX CUTTERS??? 
And for them to do it so fast that none of the pilots could put out distress calls?
That, Jay Ref, is pathetic.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
As for the phones calls...some were airfones which work regardless of altitude...
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And of the others? Normal mobile phones working at the altitudes stated?
Again, pathetic.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
I'm a private pilot. Back in 1995 I flew a friend of mine to a small airport near the Chesapeke Bay...on our way back he made and recv'd several calls. The only problem was that his call would bleed over onto the nav/com and feed into the speakers...annoying true...but impossible? Not nearly. We did this at a max altitude of 5,000ft AGL. Flight 93 could easily have flown for some time within range of cell towers.
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And you expect THIS to be some kind of evidence???!!??
My god.
You are a complete hypocrite.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Also the aircraft's CVR picks up ambient noise...you can hear engine noises and alarms on CVR tapes. Why do you think an angry mob screaming and bashing the thin cockpit door with a drink cart would not be audible on the CVR??
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It was behind a locked door you moron.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
No. It's you folks that do that. You are basically doing what Bush did ala WMD. You are starting from a premise that "It is how I believe it to be!" then you go forth to prove it. This is what Bush did...no difference at all. But at least Bush learned something...even he will not tell you now that he thinks Saddam had WMD's.
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You've just described EXACTLY what the government did with the investigation in to BL. They startded with the premise that BL did it and went out from there. Thats why there is no evidence that BL did it. For crying out loud, on the MORNING of 911, the talking heads were already out saying it was BL whilst the government later claimed they had no idea the attacks were going to happen.
Rubbish.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Because it's simply the best way to describe what you lot are doing. It's silly...it's no less silly than my bigfoot analogy. Starting an enquiry from the point that it's an inside job, let's prove it is exactly akin to saying bigfoot is an inside job, let's prove it....or a unicorn's horn is made of candy corn, let's prove it!! First you must have evidence that a unicorn, a bigfoot, or an inside job exists. There is none...and what's more...at some level you even know it. To say you are tilting at windmills would be a vast understatement!
|
I've written before about how people are naturally inclined to view the idea of 'conspiracy theory' as inherently demeaning or imbarrasing, and view those who believe in them as "looking for something to believe in". Unfortunately those people, when faced with alternative theories about history, approach those theories with that natural prejudice already filtering what information they deem relevent or not. Their minds are already made up, regardless of what evidence is presented to them.
Your assertion that there "is no evidence" to what we say is a blatent lie that you will be forced to repeat over and over again in order to comply with the cognitive dissonance you exhibit.
Why dont you show us some evidence that BL did it?
You cant because it isnt there. And if you think you have some, youd better tell the FBI because they have admitted that they have none.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
I believe in promoting critical thinking
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So why are there a ton of posts in this forum in which we have challenged you to answer our points only to have you disappear from the topics?
To be honest, you seem scared to me. Terrified of being shown up to be the apologist to killers that you are. Every day people are waking up to whats going on in the world. We are uniting every day, and the flood is drowning out the voices of the morons like yourself who are determined to live alone and in the dark.
Enjoy it Jay Ref. Just dont forget that when you wake up one day living at last in a world free of the horrors that the killers you speak for have brought down on us, it will be US that have won that freedom, not you.
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Jay Ref, just so you know a little of what you're an apologist to;
http://www.coolpeopleyoushouldknow.com/iraq/deathtoll.html
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Again, your silence speaks volumes.
Coward.
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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TimmyG
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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JREF.
i know i'm wasting my breath here. but you are clearly blinded by your beliefs on this. you really don't make much sense.
imagine someone has been murdered on a street and a detective is investigating it. the detective draws up a list of suspects based on who had the motive to do it, who had the capability to do it, and cross examines witnesses and suspects to see if anyone is trying to cover something up.
now say another detective comes along and says 'hey. why would this suspect kill the guy this way, when he could have done it this way?'
would you expect the investigation on said suspect to be dropped and the evidence dismissed?
and ofcourse a daytime attack has more shock factor. i can't believe you would even suggest that it wouldn't... well i can as you are clearly quite dumb
i don't diss people for wanting to believe it was alkaeda. but when people disregard a serious investigation into an event which killed 3000 people and was used as the pretext for the invasion of iraq killing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, when there are so many glaringly obvious holes in the official story, as silly....
well that just fukcing p1sses me off
just get off this forum mate
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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Frustrating isnt it TimmyG?
I'm pretty sure thats what this prick wants. Us p1ssed off. Its all he can do as his arguement is ridiculous.
I really do wish this guy was serious about addressing these issues instead of just being a tw&t. Other critics have been extremely informative on 911 for me. Chipmunk Stew for example i would welcome here any time. He was capable of an adult debate on the issue. He also brought to my attention areas of my arguement that are weak and need revised.
This apologist however is hardly even worth replying to. I really dont know why i bother.
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"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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TimmyG
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Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: |
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i agree defector
JREF. theres no way on earth you can claim you promote critical thinking
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: |
Sorry but that still makes no sense. Why even implicate UBL when what you really want is dirt on Saddam? Not only that, but if you are so craven as to murder thousands in broad daylight on national tv and get away with it...why on earth would you balk at "finding" some WMD stockpiles in the desert of Iraq?? It simply doesn't make any sense. Like the old saying says: "A leopard can't change it's spots." A vast conspiracy exercising covert power won't stop after a sincle success...no matter how spectacular.
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Man, you really arent that bright are you? They went in to Iraq REGARDLESS of WMD's or Sadams connections to 911. |
So therefore you are saying the evil government just pretty much does as it wishes? Right, then they sure didn't ever need to go to the great length of murdering their own citizens!
| Quote: |
911 was designed to force the concept of international terrorism, terrorism without borders, in to the public mind. It had nothing to do with Sadam. |
They why do you lot keep saying that the government staged 9/11 using Saudis...(their ME allies whom they still expend energy defending)...as the patsies??? Your theories make no sense. You may think me not so bright...but you are actually insane.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
What? NYC waking to a great smoking hole where the WTC buildings were would somehow be less scary because it happened at night? You really think so?
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Jesus, you REALLY arent that bright. OF COURSE it was scarier. I myself was utterly shocked, close to paralysis by the live tv events of 911. If you cant see how having a terror attack play live on tv is more terrifying than some pre-recorded footage then you might aswel forget trying to understand 911.[/quote]
It's also far easier to get caught red handed. The attacks would have served their scary purpose even if reported after the fact instead of live tv. To say you'd not be as scared of terrorists who killed at night instead of by day is once again...insane.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Cockpit doors were not "hardened" till after 9/11.
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Yet another example of the twisting of evidence to fit your story. It stated in the 911 commission report that all four planes had their cockpit doors unlocked contrary to FAA regulations.
I said nothing about 'hardened' doors. [/quote]
Even worse...with the doors unsecured it's even easier for unauthorised persons to gain access...and even easier for the CVR to pick up voices and noises from beyond the cockpit. You're tearing holes in your own pet theory now.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Also planes had never before been used by hijackers in that manner. Pre-9/11 you would cooperate with hijackers who claimed bombs. It's not that much of a reach that they gained access to the front office.
|
So you honestly think that some pasty hijackers could really overcome the entire flight crews of four separate airplanes, many of whome were ex-military, with f**king BOX CUTTERS???
And for them to do it so fast that none of the pilots could put out distress calls?
That, Jay Ref, is pathetic.[/quote]
Well, I never said they were pasty... Besides "The entire flight crew" was unarmed, caught by surprise, and made up mostly of women. The pilots are more concerned with flying the plane you know? They don't usually need to look over their shoulders for knife wielding assailants. But even if these guys could:
- set the auto pilot,
- unstrap their seatbelts,
- get up out of the cramped space they're sitting in,
- take a step forward to give themselves a bit of fighting room
- and then beat back a group of razor knife waving nut cases
- and... OBTW..... put out a distress call and set 7700 on their transponder.
(and even if the big tough pilots were able to pull a successful "Custer's last stand" what would they do when the pretty flight attendant has a knife to her throat?? What would they do when these nuts say they'll set off their bomb??)
yeah...and you wonder about my intelligence. At least I'm actually a pilot of some kind. I know how much you have to concentrate on flying a plane...What expertise do you have besides looking up CT films on the net?
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
As for the phones calls...some were airfones which work regardless of altitude...
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And of the others? Normal mobile phones working at the altitudes stated?
Again, pathetic. |
How do you know the altitudes for each specific call? You simply have no idea what you are talking about.
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
I'm a private pilot. Back in 1995 I flew a friend of mine to a small airport near the Chesapeke Bay...on our way back he made and recv'd several calls. The only problem was that his call would bleed over onto the nav/com and feed into the speakers...annoying true...but impossible? Not nearly. We did this at a max altitude of 5,000ft AGL. Flight 93 could easily have flown for some time within range of cell towers.
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And you expect THIS to be some kind of evidence???!!??
My god.
You are a complete hypocrite. |
Call me names as you wish...but yes it is actual evidence. I've done it. I'd be willing to swear to it in court...I'd be willing to duplicate it in flight...I'd bet anyone else could easily duplicate it in flight. Invoking your god or calling me names won't affect the efficacy of my evidence.
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Also the aircraft's CVR picks up ambient noise...you can hear engine noises and alarms on CVR tapes. Why do you think an angry mob screaming and bashing the thin cockpit door with a drink cart would not be audible on the CVR??
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It was behind a locked door you moron. |
Now I'll refer you back to the post of mine where I said the cockpit doors were not yet hardened. Screaming and banging in a mass fight for life on one side of a thin cockpit door...easily picked up by a CVR which can discern engine noises from far, far beyond the cockpit doors. Besides, you guys don't believe the CVR tapes from flight 93 right? I mean that's what this is all about right? So why even complain that CVRs are not available from the other flights??? You'd only try and say they were faked as well.
Which brings up another why. Why bother faking one CVR when you could have produced 4 fake CVRs to bolster the conspiracy???
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
No. It's you folks that do that. You are basically doing what Bush did ala WMD. You are starting from a premise that "It is how I believe it to be!" then you go forth to prove it. This is what Bush did...no difference at all. But at least Bush learned something...even he will not tell you now that he thinks Saddam had WMD's.
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You've just described EXACTLY what the government did with the investigation in to BL. They startded with the premise that BL did it and went out from there. Thats why there is no evidence that BL did it. For crying out loud, on the MORNING of 911, the talking heads were already out saying it was BL whilst the government later claimed they had no idea the attacks were going to happen.
Rubbish. |
Well who do you think would be a cheir suspect after the first WTC bombing...and the African embassy bombings...and the navy ship in Oman....etc...etc...?? Sometimes the first suspect actually is the culprit...or do you really believe that OJ is "still looking for the real killer"??? The real killer must be a golfer...
Who would your first suspect have been for 9/11? Santa Claus?
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Because it's simply the best way to describe what you lot are doing. It's silly...it's no less silly than my bigfoot analogy. Starting an enquiry from the point that it's an inside job, let's prove it is exactly akin to saying bigfoot is an inside job, let's prove it....or a unicorn's horn is made of candy corn, let's prove it!! First you must have evidence that a unicorn, a bigfoot, or an inside job exists. There is none...and what's more...at some level you even know it. To say you are tilting at windmills would be a vast understatement!
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I've written before about how people are naturally inclined to view the idea of 'conspiracy theory' as inherently demeaning or imbarrasing, and view those who believe in them as "looking for something to believe in". Unfortunately those people, when faced with alternative theories about history, approach those theories with that natural prejudice already filtering what information they deem relevent or not. Their minds are already made up, regardless of what evidence is presented to them.
Your assertion that there "is no evidence" to what we say is a blatent lie that you will be forced to repeat over and over again in order to comply with the cognitive dissonance you exhibit.
Why dont you show us some evidence that BL did it? |
Well he did admit that he did it! Or do you not believe him? Oh wait, he's working for the CIA/FBI/NWO/Reptiles/Joos...riiight!
Your theories are unfalsifiable...as such they are evidence of nothing but your own paranoid imagination. You're like John Nash without the math skills.
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You cant because it isnt there. And if you think you have some, youd better tell the FBI because they have admitted that they have none. |
Another lie. A lie easily disproved...just call your local FBI office and ask 'em. Here's a hint...they handle crimes...not acts of war. You might want to call the Pentagon and ask for their evidence dumbass
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
I believe in promoting critical thinking
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So why are there a ton of posts in this forum in which we have challenged you to answer our points only to have you disappear from the topics? |
I have a life.
| Quote: |
To be honest, you seem scared to me. Terrified of being shown up to be the apologist to killers that you are. Every day people are waking up to whats going on in the world. We are uniting every day, and the flood is drowning out the voices of the morons like yourself who are determined to live alone and in the dark. |
You wouldn't know honesty if it jumped up and bit you.
Don't you even know that it matters not how many morons "believe" your BS?? If I convince a billion people that a horse is actually a dog it's not simply going to give up and start barking! What would it matter that 5 billion 'tards think 2+2=5?? Would it suddenly become true??
| Quote: |
Enjoy it Jay Ref. Just dont forget that when you wake up one day living at last in a world free of the horrors that the killers you speak for have brought down on us, it will be US that have won that freedom, not you. |
What freedom do you guys believe in anyway? Let's examine the evidence:
- Guilty until proven innocent.
- Freedom of speech as long as it's limited to a little corner.
What other "freedoms" do you hold dear? Freedom to hate Jews...erm sorry...I mean "Zionists"  Freedom to have witch...erm I mean conspirator hunts...??? Do tell....
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | Please JR. Try and be civil. |
| DeFecToR wrote: | | Man, you really arent that bright are you? |
| DeFecToR wrote: | | Jesus, you REALLY arent that bright. |
| DeFecToR wrote: | | You are a complete hypocrite. |
| DeFecToR wrote: | | It was behind a locked door you moron. |
| DeFecToR wrote: | Again, your silence speaks volumes.
Coward. |
...and your posts speak volumes...
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | JREF.
i know i'm wasting my breath here. but you are clearly blinded by your beliefs on this. you really don't make much sense.
imagine someone has been murdered on a street and a detective is investigating it. the detective draws up a list of suspects based on who had the motive to do it, who had the capability to do it, and cross examines witnesses and suspects to see if anyone is trying to cover something up.
now say another detective comes along and says 'hey. why would this suspect kill the guy this way, when he could have done it this way?'
would you expect the investigation on said suspect to be dropped and the evidence dismissed?
and ofcourse a daytime attack has more shock factor. i can't believe you would even suggest that it wouldn't... well i can as you are clearly quite dumb
i don't diss people for wanting to believe it was alkaeda. but when people disregard a serious investigation into an event which killed 3000 people and was used as the pretext for the invasion of iraq killing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE, when there are so many glaringly obvious holes in the official story, as silly....
well that just fukcing p1sses me off
just get off this forum mate |
It's for the education of young credulous people such as yourself that I do what I do. Your post lets me know my target audience is on board.
Thanks,
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | Frustrating isnt it TimmyG?
I'm pretty sure thats what this prick wants. Us p1ssed off. Its all he can do as his arguement is ridiculous.
I really do wish this guy was serious about addressing these issues instead of just being a tw&t. Other critics have been extremely informative on 911 for me. Chipmunk Stew for example i would welcome here any time. He was capable of an adult debate on the issue. He also brought to my attention areas of my arguement that are weak and need revised.
This apologist however is hardly even worth replying to. I really dont know why i bother. |
chipmunk has more patience than I do. He and I are however in full and complete agreement. If Chipmunk clued you in to the weakness of your theory then you should look for a theory that actually works instead of just "revising" your CT.
The creators of Loose Change are promising a "final cut"...what they mean is that they've changed it 3 times. I clearly doubt the "Final Cut" won't be reworked yet again when more silliness is pointed out.
How many times has the 9/11 comission report been debunked and reworked?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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scar
Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | The creators of Loose Change are promising a "final cut"...what they mean is that they've changed it 3 times. |
They are trying to get to the truth, unlike you, they have an open mind in their quest to unearth it. They accept that everyone makes mistakes, unlike you. There is a lot of nonsense out there and much planted disinformation. But you know that as you are helping to plant it.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | How many times has the 9/11 comission report been debunked and reworked? |
Mwahahahah. new sig.
Its been endlessly debunked. Reworked?
No need to rework it when they arent trying to get to the truth (see above). Its there to cover the tracks of the real criminals also it has many like you believing every word as fact.
I really shouldnt be feeding you, mr troll.
_________________
Positive...energy...activates...constant...elevation. (Gravediggaz) |
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TimmyG
Validated Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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JREF WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Why have you joined a forum purely to attack the majority of the posters on it?!! Most of your posts only detail your strange opinions on how we think. and don't have much do with the theories being discussed. its clear your hatred for us is the most important reason for you being here
everybody on here has their own theory for what happened. most people admit they don't know exactly what happened. most of us agree that some element of the US goverment aided and/or organised the attacks. all of us (apart from the critics) think there is ample evidence to warrant a new investigation.
so when you mouth of about 'us wacky CTs' being really stupid because there are some mistakes in loose change, you look like someone with the mentality of a fukcing inbred racist who won't speak to asian people because you saw one do a bad thing once.
we are all invdividuals who want a new independent investigation into 9/11.
you are the only person on this board who i have been insultive to. as you are the only person who is acting like a complete moron
WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM US?! do you want us to believe in the official story is that it?
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act"
Last edited by TimmyG on Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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For an apologist to killers you actually are quite funny.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
So therefore you are saying the evil government just pretty much does as it wishes? Right, then they sure didn't ever need to go to the great length of murdering their own citizens!
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Wow.
Dumb.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
It's also far easier to get caught red handed. The attacks would have served their scary purpose even if reported after the fact instead of live tv. To say you'd not be as scared of terrorists who killed at night instead of by day is once again...insane.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Even worse...with the doors unsecured it's even easier for unauthorised persons to gain access...and even easier for the CVR to pick up voices and noises from beyond the cockpit. You're tearing holes in your own pet theory now.
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Brilliant. So there is crystal clear audio of the people OUTSIDE the locked cockpit door planning how to get in to the cockpit, but the scray terrorists IN the cockpit are.... what...? Whispering the whole time?
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well, I never said they were pasty... Besides "The entire flight crew" was unarmed, caught by surprise, and made up mostly of women. The pilots are more concerned with flying the plane you know? They don't usually need to look over their shoulders for knife wielding assailants.
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Maybe you in your shopping cart with wings would be more interested in continuing to fly while people are getting sliced to bits around you but out here in the real world those pilots would have fought to the death.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
(and even if the big tough pilots were able to pull a successful "Custer's last stand" what would they do when the pretty flight attendant has a knife to her throat?? What would they do when these nuts say they'll set off their bomb??)
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So...they....er....LET themselves be killed? Is that what you're saying moron? THATS GOOD. Keep it up.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
yeah...and you wonder about my intelligence.
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Dont need to wonder anymore. You're thick as two short planks.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
How do you know the altitudes for each specific call? You simply have no idea what you are talking about.
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"LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU LA LA LA MUSLIMS ARE EVIL LA LA LA "
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Call me names as you wish...but yes it is actual evidence. I've done it. I'd be willing to swear to it in court...I'd be willing to duplicate it in flight...I'd bet anyone else could easily duplicate it in flight. Invoking your god or calling me names won't affect the efficacy of my evidence.
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Man, that is the best yet.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Which brings up another why. Why bother faking one CVR when you could have produced 4 fake CVRs to bolster the conspiracy???
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Jesus. Total moron.
Let...me...spell...it...out...for...you. I'll go slow and wont use any big words okay?
The ONE CVR they preduced has quite easily been shown to be fake. Producing another three would make things a little too obvious no?
Understand that?
Of coures not.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well who do you think would be a cheir suspect after the first WTC bombing...and the African embassy bombings...and the navy ship in Oman....etc...etc...??
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HA HA
Yeh thats GREAT detective work there spodo. Start with a conclusion and work backwards.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Who would your first suspect have been for 9/11? Santa Claus?
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Jee, er, maybe looking at the evidence first would be a swell idea.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well he did admit that he did it!
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Oh really? He did did he? Funny that as there are statements by him saying that he didnt do it.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Oh wait, he's working for the CIA/FBI/NWO/Reptiles/Joos...riiight!
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Real sophisticated. I bet you're a hit with the ladies.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Another lie. A lie easily disproved...just call your local FBI office and ask 'em. Here's a hint...they handle crimes...not acts of war. You might want to call the Pentagon and ask for their evidence dumbass
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http://www.teamliberty.net/id267.html
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Eat those words dipshit...ha ha.
Lets see if you actually read these links, coward.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
I have a life.
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HAAAA
Fantastic stuff.
You have a life do you?
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Therefore I do this in order to help lurkers see your arguments in the light they deserve to be seen...and it's fun for me!
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Doesnt sound it. 
Besides, that is a pathetic excuse for running away from arguements you cant win.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
What freedom do you guys believe in anyway? Let's examine the evidence:
[list][*]Guilty until proven innocent.
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Er, you might want to read through what you post.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well who do you think would be a cheir suspect after the first WTC bombing...and the African embassy bombings...and the navy ship in Oman....etc...etc...??
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That sounds like guilty until proven innocent right there.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
[*]Freedom of speech as long as it's limited to a little corner.
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Kind of like the 'free speech zones' people like us have to put up with then eh? It really is great to know that our freedoms are being destroyed every day while apologists like you skulk around the internet spreading retarded apologist garbage.
Give yourself a pat on the back. Cheney thanks you for your service.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
What other "freedoms" do you hold dear? Freedom to hate Jews...erm sorry...I mean "Zionists"
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I am Jewish you f**king apologist.
If this is the only way you think you can score points; by accusing people of hating Jews then you really are a sad, lonely desparate person.
Actually, i'm glad you wrote that because you've shown yourself to be the complete prick that you are.
_________________
"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | | JREF WHAT DO YOU WANT? |
Timmy...are you a "Spice Girl"??
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Why have you joined a forum purely to attack the majority of the posters on it?!! |
It is not my intention to attack anyone personally...though I do defend myself when attacked. I have not "attacked the majority of the posters" I have merely "attacked" the CT by asking questions which point up the absurdities of the CT.
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Most of your posts only detail your strange opinions on how we think. and don't have much do with the theories being discussed. its clear your hatred for us is the most important reason for you being here |
You have as much evidence for my "feelings" as you do for the various CT's....none. Please refrain from telling me what I'm doing here...I think I know my motives far better than do you.
BTW, what do my feelings matter? We're not discussing how you or I feel about each other personally. We're here discussing 9/11. I'm here to see your evidence for the CT. All I see is evidence of a political bias against Bush and a religious bias against Jews. The CT seems to be a contrived vehicle for advancing these biases.
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everybody on here has their own theory for what happened. most people admit they don't know exactly what happened. most of us agree that some element of the US goverment aided and/or organised the attacks. all of us (apart from the critics) think there is ample evidence to warrant a new investigation. |
What questions would a new investigation address? Would the answers be likely to satisfy a majority of "truthers"??
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so when you mouth of about 'us wacky CTs' being really stupid because there are some mistakes in loose change, you look like someone with the mentality of a fukcing inbred racist who won't speak to asian people because you saw one do a bad thing once. |
It's not the mistakes in Loose Change that are so bad....it's the MIHOP "mistakes". AKA the on-purpose lies. Go watch LC2E again and pause the movie when it shows Newsweek "headlines"...look in the upper left corner of the picture of the headline. Why does it say "Blog This"??
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we are all invdividuals who want a new independent investigation into 9/11.
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No you don't. You are a bunch of joiners who have glomed onto a "movement". You don't like me much because I'm objectively showing you how and why your movement is doomed to a static future. A movement can't go anywhere unless it has a real agenda backed by real concerns and real evidence. The trooth movement is a fantasy based on a myth.
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you are the only person on this board who i have been insultive to. as you are the only person who is acting like a complete moron |
Why not run along then and play with the nice kids in that wonderland of fantasy? Why come to this little corner of reality if you don't like facing reality?
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WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM US?! do you want us to believe in the official story is that it? |
No. I want you to show me the evidence that proves me wrong about my acceptance of the OS. When you do I will change my mind. I have before and I will again when solid evidence and good logical reasoning are shown to me. That's what critical thinking is BTW...
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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TimmyG
Validated Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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mr Jref.
first of what is 'the CT'? conspiracy theory or conspiracy theorist? if you are saying 'conspiracy theory' which theory do you mean exactly. there are several.
most of your posts seem to equate all of us with people who wear tinfoil hats and believe in shapeshifting repitles, aliens you've even brought santa claus and other fictional characters into your assessment of us.
pretty pathetic
There is evidence that WTC7 was demolished.
there is evidence that Cheney ordered flight 77 not to be shot down.
there is evidence that there were explosives in the twin towers (eye witness reports of secondary explosions, squibs on video)
there is evidence that mamoud amhed funded atta
there is evidence that the government is trying to stop media outlets from presenting this evidence to the public
i don't know what your definition of evidence is.
| Quote: | | You don't like me much because I'm objectively showing you how and why your movement is doomed to a static future. A movement can't go anywhere unless it has a real agenda backed by real concerns and real evidence |
i'm completely speechless at your complete misunderstanding of the world that surrounds you
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | For an apologist to killers you actually are quite funny.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
So therefore you are saying the evil government just pretty much does as it wishes? Right, then they sure didn't ever need to go to the great length of murdering their own citizens!
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Wow.
Dumb. |
Why? What is so wrong with your argument that you must run to your beloved logical fallacies? You know, when people sling ad-homs it means they've lost the debate....
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
It's also far easier to get caught red handed. The attacks would have served their scary purpose even if reported after the fact instead of live tv. To say you'd not be as scared of terrorists who killed at night instead of by day is once again...insane.
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Why not say why I'm wrong instead of posting a smiley? Are you really that out of ideas already? Amazing! See? I told you this was fun. You folks are so bereft of reason that you've become a parody of yourselves!
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Even worse...with the doors unsecured it's even easier for unauthorised persons to gain access...and even easier for the CVR to pick up voices and noises from beyond the cockpit. You're tearing holes in your own pet theory now.
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Brilliant. So there is crystal clear audio of the people OUTSIDE the locked cockpit door planning how to get in to the cockpit, but the scray terrorists IN the cockpit are.... what...? Whispering the whole time?
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Have you even listened to the tape? Doesn't sound like you have.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well, I never said they were pasty... Besides "The entire flight crew" was unarmed, caught by surprise, and made up mostly of women. The pilots are more concerned with flying the plane you know? They don't usually need to look over their shoulders for knife wielding assailants.
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Maybe you in your shopping cart with wings would be more interested in continuing to fly while people are getting sliced to bits around you but out here in the real world those pilots would have fought to the death. |
If you were a pilot you'd know that the most important lesson a pilot learns is to "keep flying the plane no matter what!" Ernest Gann once landed a plane in near zero visibility that also just happened to be on fire! He didn't freak out and try to put out the fire...he concentrated on flying and landing the plane regardless of the fire. This is typical of what pilots are trained to do.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
(and even if the big tough pilots were able to pull a successful "Custer's last stand" what would they do when the pretty flight attendant has a knife to her throat?? What would they do when these nuts say they'll set off their bomb??)
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So...they....er....LET themselves be killed? Is that what you're saying moron? THATS GOOD. Keep it up. |
If I walked up behind you while you were posting on this board and sliced your stupid throat,..then gloated that you "Let yourself be killed" ...I'd be a great big a-hole. So tell me again why you aren't? Victims are called victims for a reason.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
yeah...and you wonder about my intelligence.
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Dont need to wonder anymore. You're thick as two short planks. |
More ad-hominum?
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
How do you know the altitudes for each specific call? You simply have no idea what you are talking about.
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"LA LA LA I CANT HEAR YOU LA LA LA MUSLIMS ARE EVIL LA LA LA " |
You might want to start taking your meds again....
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Call me names as you wish...but yes it is actual evidence. I've done it. I'd be willing to swear to it in court...I'd be willing to duplicate it in flight...I'd bet anyone else could easily duplicate it in flight. Invoking your god or calling me names won't affect the efficacy of my evidence.
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Man, that is the best yet. |
The emptiness of your arguments in favor of your theory is astounding. Once again I am struck by the notion that you are not dumb, just insane.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Which brings up another why. Why bother faking one CVR when you could have produced 4 fake CVRs to bolster the conspiracy???
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Jesus. Total moron.
Let...me...spell...it...out...for...you. I'll go slow and wont use any big words okay?
The ONE CVR they preduced has quite easily been shown to be fake. Producing another three would make things a little too obvious no?
Understand that?
Of coures not. |
How has it been shown to be a fake? Every attempt you've made to show that it's fake has been out-argued. You have resorted to ad-hominum over and over again after asking me to be "civil".
Honestly, at this point, if you told me the sky was blue I'd go outside and check.
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well who do you think would be a cheir suspect after the first WTC bombing...and the African embassy bombings...and the navy ship in Oman....etc...etc...??
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HA HA
Yeh thats GREAT detective work there spodo. Start with a conclusion and work backwards. |
No...you have an initial suspect in this case is all. Coordinated terrorist attack against western/American interests? Look for the guy who said that killing Americans is a "duty"....the guy who has done it all before. Like I said, who would you have suspected?
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Who would your first suspect have been for 9/11? Santa Claus?
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Jee, er, maybe looking at the evidence first would be a swell idea. |
...and the evidence points to a massive government conspiracy??? Show it to me then!
| Quote: |
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well he did admit that he did it!
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Oh really? He did did he? Funny that as there are statements by him saying that he didnt do it.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Oh wait, he's working for the CIA/FBI/NWO/Reptiles/Joos...riiight!
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Real sophisticated. I bet you're a hit with the ladies.
| Jay Ref wrote: |
Another lie. A lie easily disproved...just call your local FBI office and ask 'em. Here's a hint...they handle crimes...not acts of war. You might want to call the Pentagon and ask for their evidence dumbass
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http://www.teamliberty.net/id267.html
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm
Eat those words dipshit...ha ha.
Lets see if you actually read these links, coward. |
All your answers are at http://www.911myths.com/index.html That is if your ego is not too closely entwined with the CT so that evidence against it is akin to you losing face. If you've allied your ego to the CT then you must believe at all costs! This is where I think you've gone...there's no coming back unless you can admit to yourself that you may be wrong.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
I have a life.
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HAAAA
Fantastic stuff.
You have a life do you? |
Yep. I fly planes. I play poker tourneys.
I have this great job in the Penatgon where they pay me to make monkeys out of idiots on the internet...oops! I wasn't supposed to say that! 
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Therefore I do this in order to help lurkers see your arguments in the light they deserve to be seen...and it's fun for me!
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Doesnt sound it.
Besides, that is a pathetic excuse for running away from arguements you cant win. |
Ad-hominum attacks are the very epitome of pathetic.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
What freedom do you guys believe in anyway? Let's examine the evidence:
[list][*]Guilty until proven innocent.
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Er, you might want to read through what you post. |
Why? You do believe Bush/NWO/Bilderbergers/Joos/etc are guilty don't you? You have zero evidence, but that doesn't stop you accusing Cheney et al of mass murder. So...guilty until proven innocent is exactly how your type operates! this is objective and evidence based.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
Well who do you think would be a cheir suspect after the first WTC bombing...and the African embassy bombings...and the navy ship in Oman....etc...etc...??
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That sounds like guilty until proven innocent right there. |
No, it sounds like you have a suspect. Now you can eliminate the suspects that the evidence does not fit.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
[*]Freedom of speech as long as it's limited to a little corner.
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Kind of like the 'free speech zones' people like us have to put up with then eh? It really is great to know that our freedoms are being destroyed every day while apologists like you skulk around the internet spreading retarded apologist garbage.
Give yourself a pat on the back. Cheney thanks you for your service. |
So you have now shown us all your political bias and that your CT is crafted to implicate your political opponents. The fact that you'd give a free pass to the perpetrators of the greatest mass murder in American history so long as you can make political points off those murders makes a person such as you repugnant to most thinking people. This is why DemocraticUnderground, Soros, WaPo, NYT etc have distanced themselves from you lot. They'd love to make political points against the Republicans too...they just balk at pissing on the graves of the honored dead is all. You have no such qualms.
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
What other "freedoms" do you hold dear? Freedom to hate Jews...erm sorry...I mean "Zionists"
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I am Jewish you f**king apologist.
If this is the only way you think you can score points; by accusing people of hating Jews then you really are a sad, lonely desparate person.
Actually, i'm glad you wrote that because you've shown yourself to be the complete prick that you are.
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More ad-hom is a great way to finish. Stick with what works for you man.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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As the gorgeous one would say "Sirs, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability."
You have to have stamina to keep this one going |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TimmyG wrote: | mr Jref.
first of what is 'the CT'? conspiracy theory or conspiracy theorist? if you are saying 'conspiracy theory' which theory do you mean exactly. there are several.
most of your posts seem to equate all of us with people who wear tinfoil hats and believe in shapeshifting repitles, aliens you've even brought santa claus and other fictional characters into your assessment of us.
pretty pathetic |
That's because Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Nessie all have something in common with the great conspiracy. Can you guess what it is?
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There is evidence that WTC7 was demolished. |
There is evidence that WTC7 collapsed. There is no evidence it was "demolished" on purpose. If you have evidence please bring it.
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there is evidence that Cheney ordered flight 77 not to be shot down. |
Show it.
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there is evidence that there were explosives in the twin towers (eye witness reports of secondary explosions, squibs on video) |
No there isn't. There were explosions...there is no evidence of "explosives". Ejecta from vents in the tower machine rooms after the collapse began is not evidence of anything other than higher air pressure inside the building than outside it.
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there is evidence that mamoud amhed funded atta |
Let's see it...(if it's the same nonsense spewed elsewhere don't bother...it's been debunked)
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there is evidence that the government is trying to stop media outlets from presenting this evidence to the public |
Really? Show it. Ask yourself why this website still exists as well...
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i don't know what your definition of evidence is. |
Something objectively verifiable. Castro's health problems are evidence that he's a sick old man. They are not evidence that Bushco poisoned him. Just looking for "Who benefits?" doesn't prove anything except that they benefited. If your dad dies and leaves you a pile of money it doesn't mean you killed him.
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| Quote: | | You don't like me much because I'm objectively showing you how and why your movement is doomed to a static future. A movement can't go anywhere unless it has a real agenda backed by real concerns and real evidence |
i'm completely speechless at your complete misunderstanding of the world that surrounds you |
Ditto. My world is real. Yours isn't.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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andyb
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: SW London
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: |
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there is evidence that mamoud amhed funded atta |
Let's see it...(if it's the same nonsense spewed elsewhere don't bother...it's been debunked)
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Jay I've trawled through your myths site and can't find any debunking of this. Can you please debunk it for me.
_________________
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| andyb wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: |
| Quote: |
there is evidence that mamoud amhed funded atta |
Let's see it...(if it's the same nonsense spewed elsewhere don't bother...it's been debunked)
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Jay I've trawled through your myths site and can't find any debunking of this. Can you please debunk it for me. |
From Wikipedia re: Mahmoud Ahmad
| Quote: | | In early October 2001, Indian intelligence alleged that Mahmoud had ordered Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida. This was later proved to be a fabrication by Indian intelligence in an attempt to sabotage cooperation between the ISI and US intelligence agencies. |
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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andyb
Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: SW London
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | andyb wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: |
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there is evidence that mamoud amhed funded atta |
Let's see it...(if it's the same nonsense spewed elsewhere don't bother...it's been debunked)
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Jay I've trawled through your myths site and can't find any debunking of this. Can you please debunk it for me. |
From Wikipedia re: Mahmoud Ahmad
| Quote: | | In early October 2001, Indian intelligence alleged that Mahmoud had ordered Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida. This was later proved to be a fabrication by Indian intelligence in an attempt to sabotage cooperation between the ISI and US intelligence agencies. |
-z |
Oh wickipedia, it must be true. Come on Jay, a man of your self proclaimed intelligence can do better than that, surely?
_________________
"We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.” Martin Luther King |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| andyb wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | andyb wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: |
| Quote: |
there is evidence that mamoud amhed funded atta |
Let's see it...(if it's the same nonsense spewed elsewhere don't bother...it's been debunked)
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Jay I've trawled through your myths site and can't find any debunking of this. Can you please debunk it for me. |
From Wikipedia re: Mahmoud Ahmad
| Quote: | | In early October 2001, Indian intelligence alleged that Mahmoud had ordered Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh - the convicted mastermind of the kidnapping and killing of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl - to wire US$100,000 from Dubai to one of 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta's two bank accounts in Florida. This was later proved to be a fabrication by Indian intelligence in an attempt to sabotage cooperation between the ISI and US intelligence agencies. |
-z |
Oh wickipedia, it must be true. Come on Jay, a man of your self proclaimed intelligence can do better than that, surely? |
Why not tell me why it's not true? Tell me why information provided by a rival intelligence agency should be believed.
Fact is, anything single-sourced is suspect. The story about Mahmoud Ahmad is single-sourced and has no independent confirmation! After 5 years...no independent confirmation...that should ring a little bell on your BS detector.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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