"The evacuation of European Jewry to the island of Madagascar was not a new concept. Henry Hamilton Beamish, Arnold Leese, Lord Moyne, and governments including the British, French, and Polish, had all contemplated the idea, as did the German scholar Paul de Lagarde. Nazi Germany seized upon it, and in May 1940, in his Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East, Heinrich Himmler declared: "I hope that the concept of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of a large emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.""
Christopher R. Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution (2004), 81.
Is it so difficult to imagine that a plan which had been considered off and on for decades by many governments would not be discussed by Zionists with the Nazi government in 1933? At a time when persecution of Jews was rising alarmingly, - and at the very least to help Jews escape? How could they agree to do it? By getting the French to co-operate perhaps or by beating them in war and forcing the issue. Daft question and typical of your style. I would like YOU to answer some of the many issues raised by that video but of course you will ignore them and cherry-pick like the one above. What about the impossibility of disposing of such large numbers of bodies as is claimed to have perished? The Red Cross reports from the time stating no such gassing was taking place? The memo from a senior officer stating any further propaganda relating to the gas chamber myth would result in charges being brought against the person saying so. Is that a forgery?
For the record - I believe Jews were targetted and systematically murdered by the Nazis in huge numbers. It is the "lamp shades from human skin" and "soap made from people" etc.etc. etc. that I find ridiculous, along with the methods and scale. It should all be allowed to be questioned!!! What I despise most of all is the demonisation of German people who are, after the Russians, the greatest victims of WW2 and Nazism.
As a reminder to what nasty things can happen to people who dare to ask questions about the "Holocaust" take a look at the video below. You might disagree with what they have to say but do they really deserve the vicious attacks because of their beliefs?
"The evacuation of European Jewry to the island of Madagascar was not a new concept. Henry Hamilton Beamish, Arnold Leese, Lord Moyne, and governments including the British, French, and Polish, had all contemplated the idea, as did the German scholar Paul de Lagarde. Nazi Germany seized upon it, and in May 1940, in his Reflections on the Treatment of Peoples of Alien Races in the East, Heinrich Himmler declared: "I hope that the concept of Jews will be completely extinguished through the possibility of a large emigration of all Jews to Africa or some other colony.""
Christopher R. Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution (2004), 81.
Is it so difficult to imagine that a plan which had been considered off and on for decades by many governments would not be discussed by Zionists with the Nazi government in 1933?
You can "imgaine" what you like - unfortunately history is not just what you "imagine". You give a quote from a book that clearly tells you the date and context of this plan - described by Browning as "fantastic" and thus show you are either mendacious or a retard thinking some irrelevant quote from someone who directly contradicts you from a book you either haven't actually read or are trying to cite mendaciously is somehow making some kind of point on our behalf.
Does it not occur to you that the 1940 Madagascar plan is very well documented and its place in the development and escalation of Nazi Jewish policy quite well understood, whereras your 1933 Madacasgar deal with Zionists is indeed nothing more than what you "imagine"?
I haven't got time to respond to your usual drivel to the extent I'd like, but I'm not going to be around for a bit
Quote:
At a time when persecution of Jews was rising alarmingly, - and at the very least to help Jews escape? How could they agree to do it? By getting the French to co-operate perhaps or by beating them in war and forcing the issue. Daft question and typical of your style.
What a lovely story. Maybe they were going to build a spaceship and send the Jews to the moon. Let's just ignore every bit of documented history, like in books we quote from, and make things up shall we? Such 'truthseekers' are we.
Quote:
I would like YOU to answer some of the many issues raised by that video but of course you will ignore them and cherry-pick like the one above. What about the impossibility of disposing of such large numbers of bodies as is claimed to have perished? The Red Cross reports from the time stating no such gassing was taking place? The memo from a senior officer stating any further propaganda relating to the gas chamber myth would result in charges being brought against the person saying so. Is that a forgery?
I haven't watched that stupid Nazi film for a while, so cannot remember what sh*te they're pitching here. Though I see no impossibility in the disposal of bodies (if memory serves, in that film don't they try to set fire to a telephone directory in hole and then conclude you can't burn bodies or something asinine like that?)
Incidentally, I didn't need to 'cherry pick' from the first section you initially posted - that anyone would think that 'history lesson' of disjointed factoids was 'some kind of plausible narrative concerning events is truly astonishing. I personally cannot understand how anybody can watch that first segment and not conclude they are watching crank material. I just honestly do not understand how anybody could take such material seriously. I do not get how thick you would have to be.
Quote:
For the record - I believe Jews were targetted and systematically murdered by the Nazis in huge numbers. It is the "lamp shades from human skin" and "soap made from people" etc.etc. etc. that I find ridiculous, along with the methods and scale. It should all be allowed to be questioned!!! What I despise most of all is the demonisation of German people who are, after the Russians, the greatest victims of WW2 and Nazism.
Lampshades are about Buchenwald. That stuff has nothing to do with the Holocaust as such, it's about something in popular consciousness. Indeed, the Nazis actually forbade messing about with bodies for a laugh in such a way. No Holocaust text I have ever read talks about lampshades. Even if it happened, it's about a small, localised incident.
Back in 1961, Hilberg classified soap as a 'rumour'. It's something else you just don't read about in the history books. It's part of popular consciousness, not the history of the Holocaust. Deniers play on people's popular ideas, then claim soap has been 'retracted' when it's never been part of the narrative (I'm sure there are exceptions - you get some bad stuff written, that's inevitable. And I've heard it's still got taught in some places, in Eastern Europe I think) . Some survivors do believe it happened - but it's what they heard, there aren't witnesses. In the context the idea arose in, it's intelligible why it's believed. You need to sit down and try to learn about history and how it works.
Except for the Danzig institute where it appears experimental soap making did occur - not out of Jews specifically. This was the one instance that appeared at Nuremburg.
Why are you preoccupied with popular myths as opposed to what history actually says?
Quote:
As a reminder to what nasty things can happen to people who dare to ask questions about the "Holocaust" take a look at the video below. You might disagree with what they have to say but do they really deserve the vicious attacks because of their beliefs?
I don't personally think denial should be banned. I could say a lot about this area and how gullible people like you extrapolate all kinds of barmy ideas from it.
Hasty post, but like I said I'm not around for a bit and I wanted to make some kind of reply. I just can't believe you sit there "imagining" while quoting from a book that shows your "imagining" is wrong and thinking that "imagining" as opposed to, y'know, "evidence" is preferable. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
The thing is Ian you, dogsmilk, wakey and prole. Keep asserting there is no difference between Jewish and Zionism etc.
You continue to confirm my contempt for you not so much for your views which whilst they are largely contemptable you are free to have but you sheer ignorance and laziness. If you searched my name and zionism you would see I have written at length on the distinction and why it is critical to make this distinction but you are too lazy to do so.
You are repeatedly failing to do this most basic 'research'/checks before pressing the send button and your posts end up being the equivalent of spam clogging up this thread
Muppet.
I (and wakey and dogsmilk as well, though they can defend themselves) most certainly do make a clear distinction between the two. As I have demonstrated I used to take great care to explain these distinctions but these discussions are repetative that you and other defenders of Nick I feel no longer warrant the effort
Ah, the ad homina are flying fast, free and selectively unchecked, I note.
ian neal wrote:
Some great posts from dogsmilk, wakey and prole on this thread. Thanks
No thanks as I don't share your view of these 'great' posters. Any semiotician worthy of the name would clearly see in an instant that it's all smoke and mirrors - eg:
Dogsmilk wrote:
Now we know deniers dismiss any and all evidence for the Holocaust... ... ...
and the bottom line is all these posters are defending the indefensible; maintaining the Big Lie.
For what reason remains utterly obscure and frankly obscene, IMO.
Despite your very reasoned response at http://www.911forum.org.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=1286&highlight=zionis m - what has happened to your clarity in the meantime, despite mounting evidence of both Zionist & Thule complicity in most of the false flag events that have taken place just since WWII, ian? Despite their now blatant complicity in the destruction and takeover of America?
But back on topic, I'll ask you again, ian, without anticipating a reply of course:-
To your knowledge, has Nick Kollerstrom ever denied or condoned war crimes? _________________ "We will lead every revolution against us!" - attrib: Theodor Herzl
"Timely Demise to All Oppressors - at their Convenience!" - 'Interesting Times', Terry Pratchett
Last edited by Thermate911 on Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total
If it's 'over and out' then we can add communication breakdown to the list of obfuscations on this site. I'll answer your question anyway, in the hope that you might answer mine above, at some future time when you have come to realise that labelling people without full public inquiry is a no-no.
Quote:
What is it that is indefensible that we are supposedly defending, specifically?
Short answer: Jenin, Ramallah, Shatila, Sabra, Beirut, Cast Lead, Mavi Marmara, Sharon's claim that Israel owns America, the displacement of millions of Semites to carve a beach head for Zion, Rabbi's strident insistence that non-Jews are here merely to serve Jews, amongst many other deceptions and atrocities.
Quote:
What war crimes? All war crimes?
Yes: All war crimes but specifically the ones that are still being side-stepped or ignored to maintain the Big Lie.
The underlying problem with us Jews (yes, even part ones!) is that we are always right, even when it is patently obvious to everyone else that we're hopelessly wrong! It's the lack of moral compass born out of millennia of oppression - an oppression we bring upon ourselves owing to the 'Chosen Ones' concept we are cursed with.
Quote:
How can I answer such non-sensical questions?
I would have thought my query about NK was very straightforward. If you consider it nonsensical why did you label him as 'apologising for nazis'? This is nonsensical and counter-productive in terms of absolute truths, IMO. _________________ "We will lead every revolution against us!" - attrib: Theodor Herzl
"Timely Demise to All Oppressors - at their Convenience!" - 'Interesting Times', Terry Pratchett
What is it that is indefensible that we are supposedly defending, specifically?
Short answer: Jenin, Ramallah, Shatila, Sabra, Beirut, Cast Lead, Mavi Marmara, Sharon's claim that Israel owns America, the displacement of millions of Semites to carve a beach head for Zion, Rabbi's strident insistence that non-Jews are here merely to serve Jews, amongst many other deceptions and atrocities..
That's not specific but a long list, but easily answered. I have never defended Israeli crimes related to these places and you can't show me where I have, which means yet again you are lying.
Thermate911 wrote:
Quote:
What war crimes? All war crimes?
Yes: All war crimes.
His paper suggests denial of important elements of nazi war crimes
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 632 Location: London UK
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:52 am Post subject:
Quote:
and the bottom line is all these posters are defending the indefensible; maintaining the Big Lie.
Quote:
Short answer: Jenin, Ramallah, Shatila, Sabra, Beirut, Cast Lead, Mavi Marmara, Sharon's claim that Israel owns America, the displacement of millions of Semites to carve a beach head for Zion, Rabbi's strident insistence that non-Jews are here merely to serve Jews, amongst many other deceptions and atrocities.
Thermate How on earth have you managed to extrapolate any of the above from what has been written by 'all these posters'? Not one word has been written here by 'these posters' that defends the indefensible or maintains the Big Lie - whatever that means in your imagination.
It is possible to maintain that Israel is an apartheid illegal state, to support the Palestinians right to return and a one state solution without being a neo-Nazi and believing the filthy garbage spewed by yourself Andrew etc.
I know this for a fact because I do.
What I don't understand is how any of you neo-Nazis can possibly examine the events of 9/11 which I suppose this forum is really about (and in my case, 7/7) whilst holding such ahistorical and frankly fascist views. That's what disturbs me - because the views you hold are widely disseminated across the Internet and drown out saner reasoned ones. The very reason that Gosling should put a halt to this and ban the lot of you if he has any concern for truth and/or credibility. _________________ 'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
The thing is Ian you, dogsmilk, wakey and prole. Keep asserting there is no difference between Jewish and Zionism etc.
You continue to confirm my contempt for you not so much for your views which whilst they are largely contemptable you are free to have but you sheer ignorance and laziness. If you searched my name and zionism you would see I have written at length on the distinction and why it is critical to make this distinction but you are too lazy to do so.
You are repeatedly failing to do this most basic 'research'/checks before pressing the send button and your posts end up being the equivalent of spam clogging up this thread
Muppet.
I (and wakey and dogsmilk as well, though they can defend themselves) most certainly do make a clear distinction between the two. As I have demonstrated I used to take great care to explain these distinctions but these discussions are repetative that you and other defenders of Nick I feel no longer warrant the effort
Here for example, just hours ago.
Quote:
ian neal wrote:
Some great posts from dogsmilk, wakey and prole on this thread. Thanks
Like you (I strongly suspect) I also despair and tire of the inanity of the arguments put forward by Nick's assorted defenders not to mention the foul stench of anti-jewish bigotry that I sense. I can't quote it but I smell it.
I could write more but can't be arsed. Like I say it's tiring and despairing.
Over and most probably out for some considerable time
The thing is Ian you, dogsmilk, wakey and prole. Keep asserting there is no difference between Jewish and Zionism etc. Which makes you racist and very clearly because you keep making exceptions for all Jews which is ridiculous and also because it’s a ridiculous stance, it makes you oppressive of those Jews who don't share your ridiculous stance. And where have we seen that in history, the oppression of Jews that would not go along with the defence of Zionism etc? And further you’re falsely accusing people of racism *"anti-jewish bigotry", when it is you who are racist and oppressive. You dont know if I'm Jewish (my body) or not, or perhaps other posters. Which should make no difference if people are or not.
(edit) * If, Jewish is a race of people, then bigotry of that race is racism.
the attitudes, behaviour, or way of thinking of a bigot; prejudice; intolerance
obtuse or narrow-minded intolerance, especially of other races or religions.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigotry"
No I meant to say what I said i.e. the foul stench of anti-jewish bigotry and not the foul stench of anti-zionist bigotry. I do understand the difference
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 632 Location: London UK
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject:
Well what did you prove exactly by that Andrew? That you can't read or understand the written word? _________________ 'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
No I meant to say what I said i.e. the foul stench of anti-jewish bigotry and not the foul stench of anti-zionist bigotry. I do understand the difference
You have just done it again and that the link, you provided is more of the same. If you say anti-jewish you are making exceptions for all Jews, which is racist.
In that link, does Poseidon say all Jews?
Quote:
No. The real PTB are Jews, mostly secular, and any public claims of faith are probably phony. However, these PTB are just a tiny, crooked elite - a "mafia" - within the Jewish people. The Jewish people include the totally innocent Orthodox Jews such as Jews not Zionism
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
Seems to sum up my feelings about this thread fairly accurately.
I find your ultimate paragraph ("What I don't understand is how any of you neo-Nazis can possibly examine the events of 9/11 etc etc") most informative; I note I have now been 'upgraded' from crypto- to neo-nazi, despite being circumcised and despite everything I have expressed over the years to the contrary - but no, that wouldn't suit the fog of myth you are now attempting to convey, would it?
This is sooo giyus-speak... _________________ "We will lead every revolution against us!" - attrib: Theodor Herzl
"Timely Demise to All Oppressors - at their Convenience!" - 'Interesting Times', Terry Pratchett
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
Seems to sum up my feelings about this thread fairly accurately.
I find your ultimate paragraph ("What I don't understand is how any of you neo-Nazis can possibly examine the events of 9/11 etc etc") most informative; I note I have now been 'upgraded' from crypto- to neo-nazi, despite being circumcised and despite everything I have expressed over the years to the contrary - but no, that wouldn't suit the fog of myth you are now attempting to convey, would it?
This is sooo giyus-speak...
If you persistently promote neo-Nazi memes designed to exculpate National Socialism and seem fundamentally unable to grasp the astonishingly simple distinction between opposing the policies and actions of Israel and the promotion of the aforementioned ideas, it is really not surprising that people may make assumptions about your ideological stance.
People you interact with on the internet have no way of knowing whether you are part Jewish or not. I have zero Jew in me, yet many people online insist I am Jewish because I oppose anti-semitism.
Being part Jewish in no way precludes adherence to fascist ideology and, though unusual, even Nazi ideology. Frank Collin was half Jewish but nevertheless was a full blown neo-Nazi. Neo-Nazi Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel is probably part Jewish. There's nowt so queer as folk.
In essence, people will make assumptions about your beliefs based on the ideologies you promote, which may mean you are a dupe or an adherent - these assumptions will not be conclusively trumped by claims about your ethnic background.
Must get back to work. Seeya later. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
Last edited by Dogsmilk on Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Failed to distinquinsh between jews and zionists? No, that would be you lying again
Displayed anti-jewish bigotry myself? No, that would be you lying again
You really aren't that bright are you?
"Failed to distinquinsh between jews and zionists?"
Yes by your statement you have and do fail to distinguish between Jews and Zionists etc.
Quote:
ian neal wrote:
Some great posts from dogsmilk, wakey and prole on this thread. Thanks
Like you (I strongly suspect) I also despair and tire of the inanity of the arguments put forward by Nick's assorted defenders not to mention the foul stench of anti-jewish bigotry that I sense. I can't quote it but I smell it.
I could write more but can't be arsed. Like I say it's tiring and despairing.
Over and most probably out for some considerable time
The thing is Ian you, dogsmilk, wakey and prole. Keep asserting there is no difference between Jewish and Zionism etc. Which makes you racist and very clearly because you keep making exceptions for all Jews which is ridiculous and also because it’s a ridiculous stance, it makes you oppressive of those Jews who don't share your ridiculous stance. And where have we seen that in history, the oppression of Jews that would not go along with the defence of Zionism etc? And further you’re falsely accusing people of racism *"anti-jewish bigotry", when it is you who are racist and oppressive. You dont know if I'm Jewish (my body) or not, or perhaps other posters. Which should make no difference if people are or not.
(edit) * If, Jewish is a race of people, then bigotry of that race is racism.
the attitudes, behaviour, or way of thinking of a bigot; prejudice; intolerance
obtuse or narrow-minded intolerance, especially of other races or religions.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigotry"
And where have we seen that in history, the oppression of Jews that would not go along with the defence of Zionism
Andrew, explain to me how the persecution of Rhine Jews in 1096 had anything to do with a defence of Zionism _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
"The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both Sides" No f*****ng chance!!! Those people who ask questions have got forked tails and are in league with the devil!!!
Quote:
The Holocaust: Let's Hear Both Sides
By Mark Weber
Everyone has heard that the Nazi regime systematically killed some six million Jews in Europe during World War II, most of them in gas chambers. We’re told this repeatedly on television, in motion pictures, in books, and in newspaper and magazine articles. Holocaust education courses are obligatory in many schools. Holocaust remembrance ceremonies are held annually across the country. Every large American city has at least one Holocaust museum. In Washington, DC, the official US Holocaust Memorial Museum attracts hundreds of thousands of visitors each year.
Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story
But not everyone accepts the familiar Holocaust story. Skeptics include Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, Roger Garaudy and Prof. Robert Faurisson in France, and best-selling British historian David Irving.
These “revisionist” writers do not “deny the Holocaust.” They acknowledge the catastrophe suffered by Europe’s Jews during World War II. They do not dispute that large numbers of Jews were cruelly uprooted from their homes, forced into overcrowded ghettos or deported to concentration camps. They acknowledge that many hundreds of thousands of European Jews died or were killed, often under horrendous circumstances.
At the same time, revisionist scholars cite impressive but often ignored evidence to support their view that there was no German program to exterminate Europe's Jews, that numerous claims of mass killings in “gas chambers” are false, and that the figure of six million Jewish wartime dead is an exaggeration.
Many Holocaust Claims Abandoned
Since World War II the Holocaust story has changed quite a lot. Many extermination claims that were once widely accepted have been quietly dropped.
For example, it was authoritatively claimed for years that Jews were killed in gas chambers at Dachau, Buchenwald and other concentration camps in Germany proper. That part of the extermination story proved so untenable that it was abandoned many years ago. No serious historian now supports the once supposedly proven story of “extermination camps” in the territory of the pre-1938 German Reich. Even famed “Nazi hunter” Simon Wiesenthal acknowledged that “there were no extermination camps on German soil.” [1]
Prominent Holocaust historians now claim that large numbers of Jews were gassed at just six camps in what is now Poland: Auschwitz, Majdanek, Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno and Belzec. However, the evidence presented for gassings at these six camps is not qualitatively different than the now-discredited “evidence” for alleged “gassings” at camps in Germany proper.
At the great Nuremberg trial of 1945-1946 and during the decades following the end of World War II, Auschwitz (especially Auschwitz-Birkenau) and Majdanek (Lublin) were regarded as the most important “death camps.” The victorious Allied powers charged at Nuremberg that the Germans had killed four million at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at Majdanek. Today, no serious historian accepts either of these fantastic figures. [2]
In addition, striking evidence has become available in recent years that cannot be reconciled with the allegations of mass extermination at these camps. For example, detailed aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of Auschwitz-Birkenau on random days in 1944 -- during the height of the alleged extermination period there -- show no trace of piles of corpses, smoking crematory chimneys or masses of Jews awaiting death, all of which have been alleged and which would have been clearly visible if the extermination claims about the camp had been true.
The postwar “confession” of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss, which has often been cited as a key piece of evidence for the Holocaust story, is now known to be a false statement that was obtained by torture. [3]
Other Absurd Holocaust Claims
At one time it was seriously claimed that the Germans manufactured soap from Jewish corpses, [4] and that they systematically exterminated Jews with steam and electricity.
US officials charged at Nuremberg that the Germans had killed Jews at Treblinka, not in gas chambers, as is now claimed, but by steaming them to death in “steam chambers.” [5]
American newspapers, citing a Soviet eyewitness report from the just-liberated Auschwitz camp, told readers in 1945 that the methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and] then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields." [6]
These and many similarly bizarre Holocaust stories have been quietly abandoned over the years.
Disease Claimed Many Inmates
Everyone is familiar with the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates found in concentration camps such as Bergen-Belsen and Nordhausen when they were liberated by British and American forces in the final weeks of the war in Europe. Many people accept these photos as proof of “the Holocaust.”
In fact, these dead and dying inmates were unfortunate victims of disease and malnutrition brought on by the complete collapse of Germany in the final months of the war. Had there in fact been a comprehensive extermination program, far fewer Jews would have been found by Allied forces at the end of the war. [7]
In the face of the advancing Soviet forces, large numbers of Jews were evacuated during the final months of the war from eastern camps and ghettos to the remaining camps in western Germany. These camps quickly became terribly overcrowded, which severely hampered efforts to prevent the spread of epidemics. Furthermore, the breakdown of the German transportation system made it impossible to supply adequate food and medicine to the camps.
Unreliable Testimony
Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called “survivor testimony” to support the standard extermination story. But such “evidence” is notoriously unreliable, and very few survivors claim to have witnessed extermination killings.
The archives director of Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center has confirmed that most of the 20,000 testimonies of Jewish survivors on file there are “unreliable.” Many survivors, wanting “to be part of history,” apparently let their imaginations run away with them, said director Shmuel Krakowski. [8] Professor Arno Mayer of Princeton University has written: "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable... there is no denying the many contradictions, ambiguities and errors in the existing sources." [9]
Captured German Documents
At the end of World War II the Allies confiscated a tremendous quantity of German documents dealing with Germany's wartime Jewish policy, which was sometimes referred to as the “final solution.” But not a single document has been found that even refers to an extermination program. To the contrary, the documents show that Germany’s “final solution” policy was one of emigration and deportation, not extermination.
One of the most important of these is the confidential German Foreign Office memorandum of August 21, 1942. [10] “The present war gives Germany the opportunity and also the duty of solving the Jewish problem in Europe,” the document notes. The policy “to promote the evacuation of the Jews in closest cooperation with the agencies of the Reichsführer SS [Heinrich Himmler] is still in force.” The memo noted that “the number of Jews deported in this way to the East did not suffice to cover the labor needs there.”
The memorandum quotes Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop as saying that “at the end of this war, all Jews would have to leave Europe. This was an unalterable decision of the Führer [Hitler] and also the only way to master this problem, as only a global and comprehensive solution could be applied and individual measures would not help very much.”
The memorandum concludes by stating that the “deportations [of Jews to the East] are a further step on the way of the total solution... The deportation to the [Polish] General Government is a temporary measure. The Jews will be moved on further to the occupied [Soviet] eastern territories as soon as the technical conditions for it are given.”
Hitler and the 'Final Solution'
There is no documentary evidence that Adolf Hitler ever gave an order to exterminate the Jews. Instead, the record shows that the German leader wanted the Jews to leave Europe, by emigration if possible and by deportation if necessary. A confidential document found after the war in the files of the Reich Ministry of Justice records his thinking. In the spring of 1942, State Secretary Schlegelberger noted in a memorandum that Hitler’s Chief of Chancellery, Dr. Hans Lammers, had informed him that “the Führer [Hitler] has repeatedly declared to him [Lammers] that he wants to see the solution of the Jewish problem postponed until after the war is over.” [11]
And on July 24, 1942, Hitler emphasized to close colleagues his determination to remove all Jews from Europe after the war: “The Jews are interested in Europe for economic reasons, but Europe must reject them, if only out of self interest, because the Jews are racially tougher. After this war is over, I will rigorously hold to the view...that the Jews will have to leave and emigrate to Madagascar or some other Jewish national state.” [12]
Himmler's SS and the Camps
Jews were an important part of Germany's wartime labor force, and it was in Germany's interest to keep them alive.
On Dec. 28, 1942, the head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive to every concentration camp, including Auschwitz, sharply criticizing the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordering that “camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps.” Furthermore, it ordered: “The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit improvement recommendations to the camp commandants... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are improved as much as possible.”
Finally, the directive stressed that “The Reichsführer SS [Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced.” [13]
Six Million
The incessantly repeated claim of six million Jewish wartime dead is an exaggeration. A leading newspaper of neutral Switzerland, the daily Baseler Nachrichten, carefully estimated in June 1946 that no more than 1.5 million European Jews could have perished under German rule during the war. [14] In fact, millions of Jews “survived” German rule during World War II, including many who were interned in Auschwitz and other “extermination” camps. [15]
One-Sided 'Holocaustomania'
Even though World War II ended more than 60 years ago, there has been no let up in the stream of Holocaust-themed films, “Holocaust remembrance” ceremonies, and Holocaust education courses.
Britain’s chief rabbi, Immanuel Jakobovits, aptly described the Holocaust campaign as “an entire industry, with handsome profits for writers, researchers, film-makers, monument builders, museum planners and even politicians.” He added that some rabbis and theologians are “partners in this big business.” [16]
For many Jews, the Holocaust is virtually a new religion. Rabbi Michael Goldberg writes of “the Holocaust cult” with “its own tenets of faith, rites and shrines.” [17] In this campaign – which Jewish-American historian Alfred Lilienthal calls “Holocaustomania” -- Jews are portrayed as completely blameless victims, and non-Jews as morally retrograde beings who might quickly turn into murderous Nazis.
For many Jews, a key lesson of the Holocaust story is that non-Jews are to some degree always suspect. If a people as cultured and as educated as the Germans could turn on the Jews, so the thinking goes, then surely no non-Jewish nation can ever be completely trusted.
Non-Jewish victims are not deemed worthy of the same concern. For example, there are no American memorials, study centers or annual obser vances for the victims of Soviet dictator Stalin, who vastly outnumber Hitler’s victims, or for the tens of millions of victims of Chinese Communist dictator Mao Zedong.
Holocaust Hatemongering
The Holocaust story is sometimes used to promote hatred and hostility, particularly against the German people as a whole, eastern Europeans, and the leadership of the Roman Catholic church.
The well-known Jewish writer, Elie Wiesel, is a former Auschwitz inmate who served as chairman of the official US Holocaust Memorial Council. He received the 1986 Nobel Peace Prize. This dedicated Zionist wrote in his book, Legends of Our Time: “Every Jew, somewhere in his being, should set apart a zone of hate -- healthy, virile hate -- for what the German personifies and for what persists in the German.” [18]
Who Benefits?
The Holocaust remembrance campaign is crucially important to the interests of Israel, which owes its existence to massive annual subsidies from American taxpayers. It serves to justify enormous US support for Israel, and to excuse otherwise inexcusable Israeli policies.
Paula E. Hyman, a professor of modern Jewish history at Yale University, has observed: “With regard to Israel, the Holocaust may be used to forestall political criticism and suppress debate; it reinforces the sense of Jews as an eternally beleaguered people who can rely for their defense only upon themselves. The invocation of the suffering endured by the Jews under the Nazis often takes the place of rational argument, and is expected to convince doubters of the legitimacy of current Israeli government policy.” [19]
Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish scholar who teaches at DePaul University in Chicago, writes in his book, The Holocaust Industry, that “invoking The Holocaust” is “a ploy to delegitimize all criticism of Jews.” He adds: “By conferring total blamelessness on Jews, the Holocaust dogma immunizes Israel and American Jewry from legitimate censure... Organized American Jewry has exploited the Nazi holocaust to deflect criticism of Israel’s and its own morally indefensible policies.” He writes of the brazen “shakedown” of Germany, Switzerland and other countries by Israel and organized Jewry “to extort billions of dollars.” [20]
Another reason that the Holocaust story has proven so durable is that the governments of the major powers have a vested interest in maintaining it. The victorious powers of the Second World War -- the United States, Russia and Britain -- have a stake in portraying the defeated Hitler regime as negatively as possible. The more evil and satanic that regime is made to appear, the more easily can the Allied cause – and the means that were used in pursuit of it – be made to seem justified, or even noble.
Conclusion
In many countries, skepticism of Holocaust claims is suppressed or even prohibited.
In the United States , teachers have been dismissed for expressing heretical views on this issue. In Canada, the United States and France, thugs have brutally attacked Holocaust skeptics. One was even killed for his views. [21]
In a few countries, including France and Germany, “Holocaust denial” is a crime. Many individuals have been imprisoned, heavily fined or forced into exile for expressing doubt about aspects of the official Holocaust story.
In spite of restrictive “Holocaust denial” laws, public censure, intimidation, relentless “Holocaust remembrance” campaigns, and even physical attacks, an informed skepticism about the standard Holocaust story has been growing steadily around the world.
This is a healthy trend. Every chapter of history, including the World War II treatment of Europe’s Jews, should be open to objective, critical study. Unfettered debate and informed skepticism about history -- even “official” history -- is essential in a free, open, and mature society.
I have clearly shown that I do make the clear distinction.
So when I say "..... the foul stench of anti-jewish bigotry that I sense" I am deliberately saying anti-jewish and not anti-zionist
Show us where because I can't see it here and now or on the link you provided.
And this is still going on by the responses made.
"And we have Ian,prole, Dogsmilk, also hounding other Jews after it has been clearly explained.
Where have we seen that in history, the oppression of Jews that would not go along with the defence of Zionism etc?"
(edit)
Quote:
The thing is Ian you, dogsmilk, wakey and prole. Keep asserting there is no difference between Jewish and Zionism etc. Which makes you racist and very clearly because you keep making exceptions for all Jews which is ridiculous and also because it’s a ridiculous stance, it makes you oppressive of those Jews who don't share your ridiculous stance. And where have we seen that in history, the oppression of Jews that would not go along with the defence of Zionism etc? And further you’re falsely accusing people of racism *"anti-jewish bigotry", when it is you who are racist and oppressive. You dont know if I'm Jewish (my body) or not, or perhaps other posters. Which should make no difference if people are or not.
(edit) * If, Jewish is a race of people, then bigotry of that race is racism.
the attitudes, behaviour, or way of thinking of a bigot; prejudice; intolerance
obtuse or narrow-minded intolerance, especially of other races or religions. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bigotry"
Last edited by Andrew. on Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
Those devious Nazis put every stone back EXACTLY where they found them!!!
Quote:
Treblinka Ground Radar Examination Finds No Trace of Mass Graves
A DETAILED forensic examination of the site of the wartime Treblinka camp, using sophisticated electronic ground radar, has found no evidence of mass graves there.
Ground penetrasting radar scannerFor six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.
According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), for example, "a total of 870,000 people" were killed and buried at Treblinka between July 1942 and April 1943. Then, between April and July 1943, the hundreds of thousands of corpses were allegedly dug up and burned in batches of 2,000 or 2,500 on large grids made of railway ties.
Krege's team used an $80,000 Ground Penetration Radar (GPR) device, which sends out vertical radar signals that are visible on a computer monitor. GPR detects any large-scale disturbances in the soil structure to a normal effective depth of four or five meters, and sometimes up to ten meters. (GPR devices are routinely used around the world by geologists, archeologists, and police.) In its Treblinka investigation, Krege's team also carried out visual soil inspections, and used an auger to take numerous soil core samples.
The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed. In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.
"From these scans we could clearly identify the largely undisturbed horizontal stratigraphic layering, better known as horizons, of the soil under the camp site," says the 30-year old Krege, who lives in Canberra. "We know from scans of grave sites, and other sites with known soil disturbances, such as quarries, when this natural layering is massively disrupted or missing altogether." Because normal geological processes are very slow acting, disruption of the soil structure would have been detectable even after 60 years, Krege noted.
While his initial investigation suggests that there were never any mass graves at the Treblinka camp site, Krege believes that further work is still called for.
"Historians say that the bodies were exhumed and cremated towards the end of the Treblinka camp's use in 1943, but we found no indication that any mass graves ever existed," he says. "Personally, I don't think there was an extermination camp there at all."
Krege is preparing a detailed report on his Treblinka investigation. He says that he would welcome the formation, possibly under United Nations auspices, of an international team of neutral, qualified specialists, to carry out similar investigations at the sites of all the wartime German camps.
Krege and his team are associated with, and funded by, the Adelaide Institute, a south Australia revisionist "think tank." Its director, Dr. Fredrick Toben, was jailed in Germany for seven months in 1999 for disputing Holocaust extermination claims.
I learn everyday. But it is not everyday that I am surprised. I could not imagine that Hitler allowed Jews in German army.
I just read a post in a forum that seems to be suggesting that. Could it be true? And if true, what are the implications of that in our understanding of the Holocaust.
Below is the post by a man named Eire from Ireland.
“The subject of German soldiers of Jewish descent in the Wehrmacht will lead to new perspectives on this portion of 20th century German military history.”
–Helmut Schmidt, Former Chancellor of Germany
The Untold Story of Nazi Racial Laws and Men of Jewish Descent in the German Military
Hitler’s Jewish Army
Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers
“the actual number was much higher than previously thought–perhaps as many as 150,000 men, including decorated veterans and high-ranking officers, even generals and admirals”
-http://www.bryanrigg.com/hitlers_jewish_soldiers.htm
Hitler’s Jewish Army
“Not every victim was a Jew but every Jew was a victim.” –Elie Wiesel speaking of World War Two.
“If there were Jews in (Hitler’s) armed forces...who served knowing what was going on and made no attempt to save (lives), well then that is unacceptable and dishonorable.” –Rabbi Marvin Hier, director of the Simon Wiesenthal Institute.
Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval.
Cambridge University researcher Bryan Rigg has traced the Jewish ancestry of more than 1,200 of Hitler’s soldiers, including two field marshals and fifteen generals (two full generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major generals), “men commanding up to 100,000 troops.”
In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross.
One of these Jewish veterans is today an 82 year old resident of northern Germany, an observant Jew who served as a captain and practiced his religion within the Wehrmacht throughout the war.
One of the Jewish field marshals was Erhard Milch, deputy to Luftwaffe Chief Hermann Goering. Rumors of Milch’s Jewish identity circulated widely in Germany in the 1930s.
In one of the famous anecdotes of the time, Goering falsified Milch’s birth record and when met with protests about having a Jew in the Nazi high command, Goering replied, ``I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan.'’
Rigg’s research also shed light on stories surrounding the rescue by German soldiers of the Lubavitcher grand rabbi of that time, who was in Warsaw when the war broke out in 1939.
Joseph Isaac Schneerson was spirited to safety after an appeal to Germany from the United States. Schneerson was assisted by a German officer Rigg has identified as the highly decorated Maj. Ernst Bloch, whose father was a Jew.
Jews also served in the Nazi police and security forces as ghetto police (Ordnungdienst) and concentration camp guards (kapos).
So what happens to the claim that Hitler sought to exterminate all Jews, when he allowed some of them to join in his struggle against Bolshevism and International finance capitalism?
Sources:
William D. Montalbano, “The Jews in Hitler’s Military,” Los Angeles Times, Dec. 24, 1996.
Tom Tugend, “Grad student uncovers Jews who fought for Adolf Hitler,” Jewish Telegraph Agency, Dec. 26, 1996.
Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators.
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 632 Location: London UK
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:45 pm Post subject:
Thermate911 wrote:
Prole wrote:
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
Seems to sum up my feelings about this thread fairly accurately.
I find your ultimate paragraph ("What I don't understand is how any of you neo-Nazis can possibly examine the events of 9/11 etc etc") most informative; I note I have now been 'upgraded' from crypto- to neo-nazi, despite being circumcised and despite everything I have expressed over the years to the contrary - but no, that wouldn't suit the fog of myth you are now attempting to convey, would it?
This is sooo giyus-speak...
I judge what you write here - and your accusations of denying the Big Lie etc. Noted that you left out an important part of the quote: The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest,but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Can I remind you what you originally - and falsely - stated:
Quote:
and the bottom line is all these posters are defending the indefensible; maintaining the Big Lie.
Now I don't know what Big Lie you refer to but I think I can hazard a guess and that guess would be pretty accurate.
Then you wrote
Quote:
Short answer: Jenin, Ramallah, Shatila, Sabra, Beirut, Cast Lead, Mavi Marmara, Sharon's claim that Israel owns America, the displacement of millions of Semites to carve a beach head for Zion, Rabbi's strident insistence that non-Jews are here merely to serve Jews, amongst many other deceptions and atrocities.
What a disgusting accusation to make - as if not believing the Zionist cabal fantasy version of world politics requires a support of the massacre of Palestinians. Quoting one Israeli rabbi's rabid statement reminds me of the selective quoting in main stream and propaganda circles of Muslims to justify terms such as Islamofascism. _________________ 'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
Last edited by Prole on Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Thousands of men of Jewish descent and hundreds of what the Nazis called ‘full Jews’ served in the German military with Adolf Hitler’s knowledge and approval.
Cambridge University researcher Bryan Rigg has traced the Jewish ancestry of more than 1,200 of Hitler’s soldiers, including two field marshals and fifteen generals (two full generals, eight lieutenant generals, five major generals), “men commanding up to 100,000 troops.”
In approximately 20 cases, Jewish soldiers in the Nazi army were awarded Germany’s highest military honor, the Knight’s Cross.
Rigg explicitly states no full Jews served in the military and if any did they'd blagged their ancestry.
Rigg is quite clear about their precarious position - the article tactically omits all this material
People who manage to drag their lazy arses away from soundbite bullsh*t articles on the net, know full well part Jewish mischlinge served in the military and policies surrounding them.
Anyone can take the time to read about the complexities of Nazi policies - quite fascinating considering the range of dilemmas and contradictions encountered when trying to isolate and remove a group of people well assimilated with the rest of the population.
Instead, people like you and item8 would prefer to read sad old pro-Nazi propaganda (Pastemaster8 surely knows the (moribund) IHR was another Willis Carto operation, now run by ex-National Vanguard Mark Weber who has, ironically, now sacked off denial as a lost cause) in tabloid articles on the net, it never occurring to you to find out what the f*ck you're talking about. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 Posts: 632 Location: London UK
Posted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject:
Andrew. wrote:
Quote:
Now I don't know what Big Lie you refer to
Then ask, before you run off with your nonsence that you do.
Quote:
the Zionist cabal fantasy version of world politics requires a support of the massacre of Palestinians. Quoting one Israeli rabbi's rabid statement
At least you admit to this, but how about else where ? (edit) by location prole?
I thought you were an imbecile but I realise now you are a devious imbecile:
Quote:
as if not believing the Zionist cabal fantasy version of world politics requires a support of the massacre of Palestinians.
_________________ 'The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought'. JFK
And where have we seen that in history, the oppression of Jews that would not go along with the defence of Zionism
Andrew, explain to me how the persecution of Rhine Jews in 1096 had anything to do with a defence of Zionism
"The first Jewish communities of significant size came to England with William the Conqueror in 1066. On the conquest of England, William instituted a feudal system in the country, whereby all estates formally belonged to The Crown; the king then appointed lords over these vast estates, but they were subject to duties and obligations (financial and military) to the king."
"The First Crusade was a military expedition from 1096 to 1099"
Those devious Nazis put every stone back EXACTLY where they found them!!!
Quote:
Treblinka Ground Radar Examination Finds No Trace of Mass Graves
A DETAILED forensic examination of the site of the wartime Treblinka camp, using sophisticated electronic ground radar, has found no evidence of mass graves there.
Ground penetrasting radar scannerFor six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.
According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), for example, "a total of 870,000 people" were killed and buried at Treblinka between July 1942 and April 1943. Then, between April and July 1943, the hundreds of thousands of corpses were allegedly dug up and burned in batches of 2,000 or 2,500 on large grids made of railway ties.
Krege's team used an $80,000 Ground Penetration Radar (GPR) device, which sends out vertical radar signals that are visible on a computer monitor. GPR detects any large-scale disturbances in the soil structure to a normal effective depth of four or five meters, and sometimes up to ten meters. (GPR devices are routinely used around the world by geologists, archeologists, and police.) In its Treblinka investigation, Krege's team also carried out visual soil inspections, and used an auger to take numerous soil core samples.
The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed. In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.
"From these scans we could clearly identify the largely undisturbed horizontal stratigraphic layering, better known as horizons, of the soil under the camp site," says the 30-year old Krege, who lives in Canberra. "We know from scans of grave sites, and other sites with known soil disturbances, such as quarries, when this natural layering is massively disrupted or missing altogether." Because normal geological processes are very slow acting, disruption of the soil structure would have been detectable even after 60 years, Krege noted.
While his initial investigation suggests that there were never any mass graves at the Treblinka camp site, Krege believes that further work is still called for.
"Historians say that the bodies were exhumed and cremated towards the end of the Treblinka camp's use in 1943, but we found no indication that any mass graves ever existed," he says. "Personally, I don't think there was an extermination camp there at all."
Krege is preparing a detailed report on his Treblinka investigation. He says that he would welcome the formation, possibly under United Nations auspices, of an international team of neutral, qualified specialists, to carry out similar investigations at the sites of all the wartime German camps.
Krege and his team are associated with, and funded by, the Adelaide Institute, a south Australia revisionist "think tank." Its director, Dr. Fredrick Toben, was jailed in Germany for seven months in 1999 for disputing Holocaust extermination claims.
This is a ridiculous fraud - Krege has in over ten years failed to release his earth-shattering report or any kind of data for scrutiny.
The one GPR image he released was looked at by an actual GPR expert who said it was not properly processed and looked like he didn't know what he was doing. Though a bunch of 'things' were discernible that could indeed be mass graves.
A Polish investigation after the war found copious human remains.
Holocaust deniers have generally abandoned Krege these days as they're forced to concede he's simply failed to deliver any kind of evidence for his claims.
Captain Copy And Paste Unable To String An Argument Together For Himself apparently didn't get the memo.
I can see how chek felt. Your tactic is to spam a thread with endless articles it would take hours to dissect. We already know you are incapable of thinking for yourself, being some kind of tabloid net article paste bot. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
And where have we seen that in history, the oppression of Jews that would not go along with the defence of Zionism
Andrew, explain to me how the persecution of Rhine Jews in 1096 had anything to do with a defence of Zionism
"The first Jewish communities of significant size came to England with William the Conqueror in 1066. On the conquest of England, William instituted a feudal system in the country, whereby all estates formally belonged to The Crown; the king then appointed lords over these vast estates, but they were subject to duties and obligations (financial and military) to the king."
"The First Crusade was a military expedition from 1096 to 1099"
That does not answer the question Andrew.
Am I the only one who feels like they've wandered into some kind of lobotomy ward? _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
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