The real reason why its kicked off in Isreal

Riaz Ahmed · Editor Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 123 Location: Bradford

It is claimed that everything started with the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers, but we need to go back at least to June 9th when Israel shelled a beach in Gaza killing eight Palestinians and injuring 32 civilians, including 13 children. The dead included seven members of one family. The Israeli government offered its
'deep regret', but this outrage was no accident. It was part of the process of
instigating a reaction so that what has happened since could unfold.

On June 13th ,an Israeli plane fired at a vehicle on a busy Gaza road and when civilians hurried to help the injured another missile was fired into the crowd. Eleven Palestinians died, including two medical staff and two children.

Come on, the Israeli government was saying - retaliate. We have the gun clocked, we're ready to go, and we just need you to give us the excuse to pull the trigger.

Please see the fotage believe of the attack .....be warned...very disturbing.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13593.htm

freddie · Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject:

I agree,

The funny thing was, I was making this exact point (about the start of this conflict not being the kidnapping, but rather the attack on the beach) to some friends on friday and not one of the 5 people I mentioned it to had heard of the event!

They all said that they never saw it on the telly news, and I don't have one so couldn't correct them - Surely the incident was covered on every evening news show, can anyone clear that up for me?

Riaz Ahmed · Editor Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 123 Location: Bradford

I must admit Freddie, I came across this from my research. I dont recall seeing this in the media at the time - well not main stream anyway.

Probably kept a lid on it.

Will, be interesting to see what replies we get here!

Riaz Ahmed · Editor Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 123 Location: Bradford

Freddie,

Jane · Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject:

Riaz Ahmed · Editor Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 123 Location: Bradford

I listen to G Galloway every weekend's. I really am a big fan of his. No matter what some people think of him , he is the voice for the oppressed as far as I am concerened!

freddie · Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject:

Riaz wrote:

gypsum · Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject:

freddie · Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject:

Cheers for clearing that up Gypsum - I'd seen that footage of the little girl left alone after her parents were killed; absolutely haunting. I'm going to look into this incident more, as I know it caused disgust amongst Arabs, and seemed to get little mainstream coverage.

gypsum · Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject:

Yes very little. Time and time again we see how the Israelis 'accidentally' hit civilians. Or UN peacekeepers. Or red cross convoys. When this is on the mainstream news it's short and the Israelis are not condemned for it. The usual...

scubadiver · Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject:

I certainly remember the attack on the civilians on the beach. I did hear it about it on the news. Since I now very rarely watch BBC, it must have been Ch4.

Jane · Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject:

Newspeak International · Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:58 pm Post subject:

That is a powerful site you linked to Jane.

I'll be sure to link it in posts on other sites.

N

insidejob

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/08/346767.html
Israel started it!
Anders Strindberg | 03.08.2006 15:32 | Anti-racism | London | World

Israel must accept blame for latest conflict with Hizbullah.

Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon

By Anders Strindberg

08/01/06 "Christian Science Monitor" -- -- NEW YORK – As pundits and policymakers scramble to explain events in Lebanon, their conclusions are virtually unanimous: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism.
Sadly, this is pure analytical nonsense. Hizbullah's capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12 was a direct result of Israel's silent but unrelenting aggression against Lebanon, which in turn is part of a six-decades long Arab-Israeli conflict.

SINCE ITS WITHDRAWAL OF OCCUPATION FORCES FROM SOUTHERN LEBANON IN MAY 2000, ISRAEL HAS VIOLATED THE UNITED NATIONS-MONITORED "BLUE LINE" ON AN ALMOST DAILY BASIS, ACCORDING TO UN REPORTS. HIZBULLAH'S MILITARY DOCTRINE, ARTICULATED IN THE EARLY 1990S, STATES THAT IT WILL FIRE KATYUSHA ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL ONLY IN RESPONSE TO ISRAELI ATTACKS ON LEBANESE CIVILIANS OR HIZBULLAH'S LEADERSHIP; THIS INDEED HAS BEEN THE PATTERN.

In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?

Hizbullah's capture of the soldiers took place in the context of this ongoing conflict, which in turn is fundamentally shaped by realities in the Palestinian territories. To the vexation of Israel and its allies, Hizbullah - easily the most popular political movement in the Middle East - unflinchingly stands with the Palestinians.

Since June 25, when Palestinian fighters captured one Israeli soldier and demanded a prisoner exchange, Israel has killed more than 140 Palestinians. Like the Lebanese situation, that flare-up was detached from its wider context and was said to be "manufactured" by the enemies of Israel; more nonsense proffered in order to distract from the apparently unthinkable reality that it is the manner in which Israel was created, and the ideological premises that have sustained it for almost 60 years, that are the core of the entire Arab-Israeli conflict.

Once the Arabs had rejected the UN's right to give away their land and to force them to pay the price for European pogroms and the Holocaust, the creation of Israel in 1948 was made possible only by ethnic cleansing and annexation. This is historical fact and has been documented by Israeli historians, such as Benny Morris. Yet Israel continues to contend that it had nothing to do with the Palestinian exodus, and consequently has no moral duty to offer redress.

For six decades the Palestinian refugees have been refused their right to return home because they are of the wrong race. "Israel must remain a Jewish state," is an almost sacral mantra across the Western political spectrum. It means, in practice, that Israel is accorded the right to be an ethnocracy at the expense of the refugees and their descendants, now close to 5 million.

Is it not understandable that Israel's ethnic preoccupation profoundly offends not only Palestinians, but many of their Arab brethren? Yet rather than demanding that Israel acknowledge its foundational wrongs as a first step toward equality and coexistence, the Western world blithely insists that each and all must recognize Israel's right to exist at the Palestinians' expense.

Western discourse seems unable to accommodate a serious, as opposed to cosmetic concern for Palestinians' rights and liberties: The Palestinians are the Indians who refuse to live on the reservation; the Negroes who refuse to sit in the back of the bus.

By what moral right does anyone tell them to be realistic and get over themselves? That it is too much of a hassle to right the wrongs committed against them? That the front of the bus must remain ethnically pure? When they refuse to recognize their occupier and embrace their racial inferiority, when desperation and frustration causes them to turn to violence, and when neighbors and allies come to their aid - some for reasons of power politics, others out of idealism - we are astonished that they are all such fanatics and extremists.

The fundamental obstacle to understanding the Arab-Israeli conflict is that we have given up on asking what is right and wrong, instead asking what is "practical" and "realistic." Yet reality is that Israel is a profoundly racist state, the existence of which is buttressed by a seemingly endless succession of punitive measures, assassinations, and wars against its victims and their allies.

A realistic understanding of the conflict, therefore, is one that recognizes that the crux is not in this or that incident or policy, but in Israel's foundational and per- sistent refusal to recognize the humanity of its Palestinian victims. Neither Hizbullah nor Hamas are driven by a desire to "wipe out Jews," as is so often claimed, but by a fundamental sense of injustice that they will not allow to be forgotten.

These groups will continue to enjoy popular legitimacy because they fulfill the need for someone - anyone - to stand up for Arab rights. Israel cannot destroy this need by bombing power grids or rocket ramps. If Israel, like its former political ally South Africa, has the capacity to come to terms with principles of democracy and human rights and accept egalitarian multiracial coexistence within a single state for Jews and Arabs, then the foundation for resentment and resistance will have been removed. If Israel cannot bring itself to do so, then it will continue to be the vortex of regional violence.

Anders Strindberg, formerly a visiting professor at Damascus University, Syria, is a consultant on Middle East politics working with European government and law-enforcement agencies. He has also covered Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinian territories as a journalist since the late 1990s, primarily for European publications.

Copyright © 2006 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved
Anders Strindberg
e-mail: jackharper@shaw.ca

wepmob2000 · Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:17 am Post subject:

Hmm, here we are again, Israelis guilty for everything, Arabs bear no responsibility whatsoever. Perhaps Mossad,with the CIA and MI6 kidnapped the poor soldiers, so they could twist it around and blame Hezbollah.

Please do not think for one second of Lebanon as a sovereign state, instead a good part of it is a kind of Hezbollah homeland. Israeli 'incursions' are no more than reconnaissance into the Hezbollah state.

Hezbollah is the mere puppet of Iran and Syria, any explanation for Arab aggression must lie at their feet ultimately.

ian neal · Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:46 am Post subject:

Now personally I think all war is a crime, but to the extent that people like to make laws about these things, Israel's actions over the past 2 weeks are war crimes. Pure and simple. The US and UK in shipping bombs to Israel at this time is actively aiding Israel in these war crimes and share the guilt.

That others are all guilty of targetting civilians and so also guilty of war crimes, does make Israel's guilt less.

wepmob2000, please read

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=15356&highlight=#153 56

insidejob · Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: Arabs to blame?

It is easy to say the Hizbollah want to destroy Israel but what is the evidence that Hizbollah was created in order to bring about the destruction of Israel?

It is easy to say that they want to destroy Israel, but by what method do Hizbollah, Hamas, PLO, Iran and Syria plan to bring about the destruction Israel?

I would argue that most people who say these things frankly do not know what they are talking about.

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html
Associated Press
HEZBOLLAH CAPTURES 2 ISRAELI SOLDIERS
By JOSEPH PANOSSIAN , 07.12.2006, 05:41 AM

The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday ACROSS THE BORDER IN SOUTHERN LEBANON, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.

The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.

The Israeli military would not confirm the report.

Mona Baker
Director of Centre for Translation and Intercultural Studies
UMIST. PO Box 88, Manchester M60 1QD
e-mail: mona.baker@umist.ac.uk
phone: +44/0 161 200 3081
fax: +44/0 161 200 3099

ZIONISM IN THEIR OWN WORDS

'If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.'
-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

'This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.'
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

'We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

'[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.'
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

'(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.'
-- Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers, New York Times April 1, 1988

'If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force....'
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

'It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.'
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

'Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them.'
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

'Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.'
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online

Jane · Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:52 pm Post subject: To wepmob2000

Quote from wepmob2000

wepmob2000 · Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:15 am Post subject: Re: To wepmob2000

My comments in Red - Wepmob

[quote="Jane"]Quote from wepmob2000

DeFecToR · Moderate Poster Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782

Just to give a little perspective on how Israel has historically viewed the concept of international law;

http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.ht m

Mark Gobell · On Gardening Leave Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 4529

Hi Webmop2000

Regarding your questions about UK folk not demonstrating about these other "terrorist" outrages.

Just for the record I have never been on a demo in my life, have you ?

If you have then why haven't you attended / started a demo about the things you describe ?

If you haven't then why didn't you attend / start a demo yourself about events that trouble you ?

Maybe the answer to your questions can be found in the answers you have to these questions.

Also, the events you mention presuppose that people care about what is happening in the world which most obviously don't.

Among the constituent of people that do care, contextually say the folk posting here for example, your question presupposes that they would agree with the version of events provided by the mainstream media which I would argue they do not.

There is a growing body of evidence that many of these so called "terrorist" outrages are not in fact perpetrated by the traditional suspects.

Is it reasonable to expect a group of people who suspect state sponsored complicity in these outrages to organise themselves and demopnstrate against patsies ?

It would make sense for them to demonstrate against state sponsored terrorism if that is what they suspect would it not ?

Hence, in this context your questions still stand.

Why wasn't there a mass mobilisation in the UK say against IRA attrocities for example ?

Do you agree that it is entirely logical that people should resist and demonstrate against the actions of their own governments ?

I would wager that all of us here including you agree on one thing. The majority of people are more concerned about events on say Big Brother than they are about a "terrorist" outrage, even in London.

So why do you think that is ?

wepmob2000 · Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject:

Hi Mark

Thankyou again for an intelligent, interesting and courteous post, quite unlike Dogs post in the other thread.

It seems to me the following is true....

The majority of people simply do not care either way, and general political apathy is at an all time low. Even students appear less interested than they once were, perhaps because they have to now struggle as never before to make ends meet, and thus are preoccupied. Maybe people feel protest is useless and pointless, so why bother. What does voter apathy in recent elections mean in all this? Does it indicate a happy or a resigned acceptance of the status quo? Perhaps it indicates a complete lack of interest in anything other than the latest big brother events or X-factor voting. My personal experience suggests the last possibility.

I too have never demonstrated in my life, mainly because the nature of such demos has never impelled me to do so. With many events I remain resolutely unsure as to where the truth lies.

The fact that so many historical events still remain in a quagmire of argument and counter-argument, does not inspire hope that the truth about 9/11 or other pertinent recent events should be any different.

Perhaps the best thing to do is examine all available evidence, and then in all likelihood remain unconvinced and unsure.

My main beef is that there seems to be a dedicated anti US/Western/ Israeli movement, and that this is reflected in 'popular' protest. DeFecTors post below is a reasonable example of this. No one disputes what he has said.

However it is strange for seekers of truth to so readily disregard one version of events and glibly accept another. There are I assure everyone similar lists of Hezbollah atrocities against the USA to be found. Along with similarly pro-Israeli articles. None of this is necessarily reliable.

It seems to me that many of the posters here seek the truth only so long as it is couched in terms with which they agree. A truth that is acceptable to them, and that proves there is a U.S led worldwide conspiracy.

What if the truth turned out to be an Islamic conspiracy against the West and its values, with the long term aim of worldwide hegemony?

Why is this possibility so easily disregarded?

The truth probably lies somewhere in between these two extremes, while poor Mr Average Joe in Basrah or Birmingham suffers because of the eternal conflict.

By all means people should demonstrate constantly, I particularly admire the way this attitude is firmly entrenched in French society.

However the demonstrations as I see them at the moment are merely another form of extremism, as unerringly biased as the hawks in the White House, with an equally unquestioning acceptance of 'facts' as they see fit, as those they say are brainwashed by state propaganda.......

wepmob2000 · Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject:

Further to what I have just said, let us see what happens in this afternoons demo.

I for one would be impressed if placards carried slogans like 'Stop all fighting, all side must talk' and things in a similar vein.

Most likely placards will bear slogans like 'Stop Israeli aggression now' and 'USA and UK are the Axis of Evil'.

This too is the language of extremism, why is one persons viewpoint of the truth correct and anothers wrong?

Possibly effigies of Blair and Bush will be burnt, but this is 'acceptable'.

If some Zionists appear, they are 'right wing bullies and thugs' (which they probably are), but they speak only the same language of intolerance.

The sad fact is, if 100 humans from all around the wold were placed in a room, 98 would get along just fine, probably talking about the football or whatever. The two extremists on the sidelines would attempt to polarise the people, and eventually a fight might break out.

Mooter · Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject:

IMHO, the reason people here comment predominantly against Israel, UK & US is that there is already overwhelming bias against the Palestinians and other such groups in the mainstream media. Yeah, so Hizbollah probably aren't the nicest bunch of guys in the world but in this case they are being used in order to get Iran and Syria to join in (simplistic I know but rest assured I have done much reading into this). The real reason behind this (IMO) can be found here:

Full article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO200 60726&articleId=2824

Useful map illustrating my point:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/images/middleastmap.jpg

paul wright · Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject:

Mark Gobell · On Gardening Leave Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 4529

Hi webmop

I for one, think a constructive dialogue is more likely to achieve something than emotive mud slinging and tantrums. So your contribution to this is much appreciated. Thank you.

You have a better chance of helping me to understand your views and vice versa.

As a footnote to your very welcome response on my behalf, your quote from Pastor Niemoller should be the agenda of everyone. Well said indeed. Just goes to show what a sense of fair play and respect can achieve eh.

At the "risk" of being nauseating or sanctimonious, I commend Webmop's quote to one and all. Globally.

"This is my truth, tell me yours"

Anything else is just so called adults behaving like ignorant and spiteful children in the playground, only in bigger bodies.

As for the Arabs and the Jews, to quote from one of my fav songs:

Arabs and the Jews boy
Too much for me
They get me confused boy
Puts me off to sleep

An historic conflict between Muslims and Jews, born thousands of years ago, standing alone as the quintessential testament to the human hunger for hate.

Based on what exactly ?

Religion ?

Belief systems, codified in books and mysticism and perpetuated in it's name.

My religion is better than yours. My prophet is THE prophet. Your people are dogs, blah blah blah.

Children raised and nurtured to hate each other to feed the fire eternally.

Is there a political solution to this ?

Anyone asleep yet ?

Was any of us ever really awake ?

For me, there is no doubt that living in Britain under Blair is preferable to living under any Muslim or Jewish theocracy or a brutal dictatorship anywhere in the world.

The events of 9/11 however have revealed the master plan.

USA global preeminence. Period.

Not my words. Their words, exactly.

The plans were there to be seen, one year before 9/11 and they were there before, if we only looked. We didn't look though, we had no reason to look.

The old traditional enemy had been brought to it's knees. WW3 - The Cold War was over. All our fears were gone. The bogey man was taken out, we rejoiced and had a party, then all went back to sleep again.

The Soviet experiment had failed. Their war floundered in the poppy fields of Afghanistan. Uncle Sam fed the Mujahadeen not on apple pie but a diet of extreme Islam. They created the monster the world has now been told to hate.

It remains to be seen just where Israel fits in with this plan. A useful, expendable pawn or the driving force ?

As they have constantly repeated, 9/11 has changed everything.

The monstrous events of 9/11 caught the left out whilst giving a green light to the right.

Those poor oppressed Muslim hijackers were forced to such extreme acts through American oppression. Usama's final straw was the US presence in Mecca. Bingo. 9/11.

Pictures of Muslims rejoicing as the towers fell were burned into our brains.

The left run for cover. The right, exonerated. Lets nuke em !

9/11 was the quaintly termed "Neocons" ace in the hole. By playing it they have showed their hand.

The Neocons plan for global hegemony now reveals itself as the three card trick it always was.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria.

Will it be a full house of horrors ?

Iran ?

Saudi ?

In the meantime, we sit here and moan while Blair's Britain is moving deliberately into a police state.

As a consequence of those poor oppressed cocaine snorting Muslims sneaking invisibly through airport ticket barriers, taking their unallocated seats and then hijacking those planes, evading a billion dollar air defence and crashing their weapons of choice into Manhattan, I can now be locked up for 28 days without trial. They wanted 90 but hey 28 is a start.

Whilst I am locked up I have no right to know what it is I am supposed to have done. I could be rendered extraordinarily to another country for interrogation. Even torture is outsourced these days. Thanks George, Tony.

I can be "interviewed" by police for reading Vanity Fair in public and have those subversive magazines confiscated as evidence of "politically motivated material". NKVD ? STASI ? KGB ? Nah, just good old British bobbies just doing Blair's job.

Madrid got their 9/11 911 days after 9/11

We got our 9/11 in London on 7/7.

Bali have had their's twice.

Mumbai too ?

Each time we cry stop, foul play and are told it's Global Jihad.

Global Jihad ? The Organisation of Al Qaeeda in Europe ? Was it Osama ? No. I mean yes. No. Yes. Oh we don't know. Go back to sleep. Stop asking questions.

It just is OK. Get used to it.

It's going to happen again.
It's going to happen again.
It's going to happen again.

Be scared, be very, very scared, there's a good boy.

They hate our freedoms you know. They hate us so much they want to kill us all.

Who are we talking about here ?

As Blair said to a Labour Party conference just after 9-11:

"This is a moment to seize. The kaleidoscope has been shaken. The pieces are in a flux. Soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us reorder this world around us."

Who is he talking to exactly ?

Newspeak International · Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject:

Excellent post Mark,I'm sure it reflects the views of most posters on this site, and why we bother to care now.

	9/11, 7/7, Covid-1984 & the War on Freedom Forum Index -> General	All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1