Israel's ulterior motives to wage war in Lebanon...

[ian neal]

wepmob

Do you support the united call to reopen 9/11 and the statement on the front page? If not, you should be posting in the critics corner. Those that find it stimulating to engage with you can do so there. If you do support the campaign I have a few questions.

Thanks

Ian

[wepmob2000]

Ian
No I do not support the campaign at all, however there is nothing wrong in encouraging some debate, after all this is supposedly a 'forum' and not a diatribe?

[wepmob2000]

Ian,

Sorry yes I do support the campaign, please ask me the questions......

[Garcon Warrior]

wepmob2000 wrote:

Boy, some people here would get a nasty surprise if they knew what the average Joe down the pub thought. For example my boss, a business leader in this town no less, his reaction to the crisis is 'bomb the whole f**king lot of them, nuke em'. He is far from alone.

Now I guess at a decent sized pub you would get maybe 50 average joe's with the reaction of 'bomb the whole f**king lot of them, nuke em'.

So I guess the other 59 million people who did not go to the pub by default supported the non killing of women, men and children and dare I say it wanted peace.

[wepmob2000]

No, they couldn't all fit in the pub

To pretend that this is anything more than the concern of a minority of middle class worthies is ridiculous.

The majority of people in this country care not one jot what happens in the middle east, and like it or not there is a frightening amount of anti-semitic sentiment these days, something not helped by the blatant propaganda pushed as "fact" on these pages!

[Mark Gobell]

Hi Webmop2000

Thanks for your post and a belated welcome to the forum.

I only started posting here a couple of weeks ago but my initiation was, unlike yours, smooth and easy because I suspect like many others out there I have been following the 9/11 issue for quite some time without actively taking part in the debate.

Also, as I do not dissent from the central theme here that the events of 9/11 are not as they are presented by the official story or the official conspiracy theory as many call it, I didn't meet with the same resistance as you did.

Well done for presenting your views thus far though.

In fact, if it wasn't for the posts from a few dissenting individuals I probably wouldn't have started to post myself. It was their completely opposite views that enticed me in the first place.

That "debate", if you can call it that, became so farcical that the very moderate moderators on here suggested, invited opinion on and then created a special place for critics of our views to express dissent and debate their views. This was only, I suspect because of the nature of those individuals and the way that one or two of them conducted themselves.

The result was the Critics Corner forum where even the most virulent opposition to our ideas has a voice.

Until I became motivated by some of their posts, I hadn't seen much of a reason to post anything, just to agree with other people. I can inform myself by reading and checking facts as much as I can, on my own. God knows there is wealth of information out there.

I don't kid myself either that I have anything much to contribute to the debate. I have no new evidence to present or any startling revelation to reveal but it's an interesting experience and at least provides an opportunity to express yourself.

That said, there are a number of people on here who have availed themselves of a raft of information about 9/11 and related issues and that is a blessing and a fantastic resource to have when one needs educating on a particular issue.

I think that with very few exceptions anyone should be made welcome and allowed to voice their view, challenge those held by others in a calm rational manner.

Given that our goal requires the need to inform as many people as we can about 9/11 it is crazy to turn people off however unintentional.

As a good salesman knows: a satisfied customer may tell one or two other people whereas a dissatisfied customer will tell many more.

As a newbie here myself, I'm interested to know what attracted you in ?

Cheers

[wepmob2000]

Hi Mark

Thanks once again for a good post.

I feel critics corner is perhaps as self defeating as a 'forum' where dissent is disallowed or discouraged. It is disingenuous to want be in a forum where all opinions agree and there is in fact no debate.

Posts where the Western powers and Israel are described as aggressors are primarily responsible for drawing me in to the forum, it was more of an interest in the current crisis than 9/11 which piqued my interest.

I have grown tired of uneven coverage of this crisis in the media, and felt a desire to voice my own concerns, preferably in the most virulently anti-Israeli/Western forum I could find.

Googling a search based on various invective lead me here!

I already have and will continue to learn something from this forum, and will no doubt continue to be a source of dissent!

[Mark Gobell]

Webmop2000

I agree with your views about Critics Corner and have already said as much before. It was however, a compromise response to a testing problem.

Take a look yourself and see what you think.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=2838

I would be interested to hear your view on this thread or any other that you find over there for that matter.

It's a shame really, because I think these chaps have intelligence and can articulate an argument very well, should they choose. It is that challenge that I initially responded to but after spending some time exercising patience, politeness and respect in the face of continual obfuscation, insults and ridiculous rhetoric I ditched my early optimism and refrained from further attempts at reason.

The moderators have always said that the idea of Critics Corner will be reviewed in the light of experience. It is certainly preferable IMO than an outright ban as is the strategy of many other forums.

You will certainly find a lot of people on here to argue with regarding who the aggressors are in the current conflicts. That's not to say that everyone shares the same view. We have disagreements and opposing views about 9/11 too.

As far as the media is concerned I find it fascinating that we are both tired of what we see as bias in the media.

Yet we hold completely opposing views about what that bias is. We do therefore agree on something, whilst disagreeing on our perception of what that bias may be.

We could argue about every nuance of this until the cows come home I suspect.

I distrust the media. Period.

I have always had a problem with paid opinion formers.

The danger with this is that everything you hear can become suspicious and doubted. It is an easy trap to fall into, and a point well made several times by said detractors; that mindset can facilitate a polarised view that percieves everything only within a given framework.

I would argue that this dilemna exists for us all, whatever out view.

For example advocates of a 9/11 conspiracy are criticised for seeing events in that framework only, whereas they would argue exactly the same for those that accept the conventional, orthodox view of the world.

The short form would be: we're all conspiracy loons and you lot are all brainwashed.

Two opposing camps. Which many suspect is the goal. One group are demonised and the other left alone. Which group is demonised depends upon who is setting the agenda.

Nobody likes to be called either and nobody can be absolutely correct all of the time, we all have to do is retain an open mind, however difficult that maybe.

I have though journeyed some way in my understanding of world events not solely as a result of my interest in 9/11, but this issue has certainly accelerated my awakening.

Originally I came from an orthodox background based on the reports I received from the media about pretty much everything.

I grew tired a long while ago about how most events are presented to us. I stopped buying newspapers years ago. I reasoned that I should not subsidise the very vehicle that spins and shapes my reality.

If I choose to watch the "news" now, I hear what they are not saying.

My view is formed largely as a response to, rather than an acceptance of their repeated messages.

This stuff, I conclude is not targetted at me anymore. It's meant for some other audience.

I would say that in my experience of the media since 9/11 things have changed dramatically. That's not to say that they were not changing before that event, they probably were but 9/11 has provided an intense focus.

9/11 was the biggest terrorist attack ever in recent history.

We have been told who done it and why. Case closed.

Wars have been launched in Afghanistan, Iraq and who knows where next in the name of the War on Terror.

I call it the War of Terror.

Not because I have special sympathy for Arabs or Muslims because I do not.

I accept that there are Arab and Muslim terrorists. I also accept that there are American, British and Israeli terrorists.

That's where 9/11 has led me. Not by some blind passive acceptance of some conspiracy theory, but by reading and understanding a different view from that which I was being fed by the media.

In fact it was the media's constant repetition of the "narrative" that encouraged me to find out more.

What would I have done without the internet. This vast libarary without shelves.

Probably accepted the official story as so many do and gone shopping.

Sincerely webmop I would like to here your views on 9/11 if you feel inclined.

I do not mean to be condescending, but would willingly provide a link to a summary of a petition to congress about 9/11 if you would like to read it.

Cheers

[Dog]

Mark Gobell. You are nauseus and sanctimonious in equal measure. This is not a purile exercise in name calling; this is a fact. That you are even wasting more than a moment's breath on a cretin such as wetdick2000 is testament to that. A 9/11 "newbie" you may be. That DOES NOT excuse limp-wristed negotiation with subversion. I am not a "newbie". In your parlance, I suppose I'm an "oldbie".

Expletives like wetdick have no business here and ought not to be shown a single ounce of gravitas within these pages. I have huge admiration for the team of moderators herein that they have created a space (Critics' Corner) for those so inclined. Personally, I would singularly "pull" the IP's of these idiots and use every tool available to ensure they don't re-appear. All credit to Ian Neal for having a cooler head.

Now is not the time for either nicety or grace.

I need not remind you that the mid-term elections are just a few short weeks away and the pressure on the PNAC loons to up the ante has never been greater. The roasting given by Hilary Clinton to Donald Rumsfeld in today's Senate Hearing offers no parralel example.

In addition and prior to those elections, falls the fifth anniverary of 9/11.

Talk about a pancake theory. 'You want maple syrup with that?

A grey and ashened Blair continues to buckle under the weight of his own cabinet.

Abizad FINALLY acknowledges the inevitability of civil war in Iraq.

And despite the propoganda, America's proxy army has proven impotent against a much smaller and laughably less well-equipped foe.

And you know why?

'Course you do, fellas.

It's about heart.

[wepmob2000]

Hi Mark

Thankyou yet again for a thoughtful and intelligent post, which deserves a full reply for which I haven't the time at the moment, but will do so tomorrow.

For now I would like to reply to Dog's post

[gypsum]

[wepmob2000]

Hmmm, well theres certainly a link of some kind between Iran and the current crisis, heres quite a good web-link....

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.117/pub_detail.asp

and heres an interesting, well known, but irrefutable quote........

"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world..... As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map,"

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad,

The association is no less circumstantial than the theories linking the USA with some kind of masterplan to gain hegemony in the middle east

[gypsum]

Yeah well the man sure likes to speak his mind. He's honest with the people.
The link you provided is about Iran supplying weapons to the people it supports. Since you obviously think this is a bad thing, then do you also think that it is a bad thing that America gives weapons to Israel?

[Abandoned Ego]

[alwun]

Hi Mark

Just a word in support of your posting. I did not find your writing sanctimonious or nauseous. I admire your tendency to reach out and offer the olive branch at every turn. Dog would do well to be aware that many of the people who are trying to bring the 911 affair into the public mind are also hoping for a world which will be less violent and aggressive. Aggression in the mind is a short step from violence in the flesh. I hope to share the planet with peaceful and loving people. Good luck.

cheers Al..

[Mark Gobell]

Let's take a closer look at what Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said.

You won't find this in the mainstream media.

But this is what he actually said, and in context.

Compare his actual words and their context to the examples of what was portrayed in the msm.

I repeat, I have no special sympathy for Muslims or Iran, just an interest in the truth.

Discuss:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

[gypsum]

Mark, thanks very much for the link...I've been looking for a proper translation or video of his actual speech for ages!! Thanks again

[sonic]

Mark.

Thanks from me to.

Peace,

Sonic

[wepmob2000]

Gypsum,

Apologies for the slow reply, have been somewhat preoccupied.

Gypsum said.....

There you go again, bringing Iran into it. I'm still interested in finding out what it is that you think that Iran has done wrong. I'm guessing you overlooked it last time I asked you.

I don't recall actively criticising Iran, merely pointing out theres more than one side involved in this conflict, and most likely more than one proxy army. heres that link again, providing some evidence that Iran is a major supplier of arms to Hezbollah. The Katyushas and ASM's weren't supplied to improve civic amenities its safe to say. They're not particularly defensive weapons either, SAM's and ATGW's would have been more use given Israeli military disposition, as Israel found out the hard way in 1973. I have more if you like?

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.117/pub_detail.asp

In turn it makes you wonder if Iran itself is a proxy of China, again not saying this is in any way wrong, but its an intriguing possibility.

Could it be that the incumbant superpower and the emerging superpower are fighting by proxy to control the oil?

If the mess in the Middle-East is part of a U.S. led masterplan, its not very masterful?

Maybe when the cards are revealed it will be China that has the best hand?

[wepmob2000]

Hi Mark Gobell

I did say I would reply with regards to my take on the events of 9/11, although other priorities have precluded me from doing so until now.

Let me state from the outset I am a former member of HM Armed Forces, and am currently a reservist, hence liable to be recalled if the need should arise. Due to my heritage I also lean toward Zionist tendancies.

Whilst I disagree with much of what is mooted here, its the most intelligent such forum I have found (with the odd exception) and at least does not banish polite dissenters. People who need the kind of sop to their ego's that total unamity would provide are.... well kind of sad.

A seeker of truth should be just that, no matter how unpalatable it may appear to be.

I am sceptical of the events surrounding 9/11 for a number of reasons, no matter what my opinions of the intended outcome.

I dispute the wilder conspiracy theories on the basis that the more complex a plan is, the likelier it is to unravel. From a technical perspective some theories, such as holographic aircraft or computer controlled airliners would be almost impossible to achieve, or at least very difficult. The more variables that are introduced, the more there is to go wrong, the bigger a plot is, the more likely it is to be uncovered and the perpetrators exposed.

Having said this, the attack on the Pentagon is technically very interesting, being more difficult than the WTC attack by an order of magnitude. This is something I can believe was a result of an attack by other than an aircraft and is worth examing in huge detail.

However 9/11 was a very convenient event with regard to percieved U.S foreign policy objectives. If the U.S.A wants dominance over the middle east then something huge had to occur to legitimize aggressive planning. Also this happened to deflect attention away from GWB's inert presidency and the very legitimacy of his administration.

Osama Bin Laden was that means. It is difficult to believe the FBI/CIA didn't have a very clear idea of the Al-Qaeda plot. It is easy to believe the plot was allowed to proceed. In terms of deniability this makes more sense than a hugely complex conspiracy.

Having said that, there may have been a stupidly large plot. The ineptitude with which the U.S.A has dealt with subsequent events is almost unbelievable. Two of the most appallingly mishandled military campaigns in history do little to increase confidence in the competence of the Bush administration.

I have yet to see convincing evidence of these wild theories however. More likely the U.S government was at least aware of or even complicit in Al-Qaeda's plans, possibly via various nefarious connections. Possibly they provide funding for Al-Qaeda, almost certainly they are happy to see Al-Qaeda continue to exist.

It does surprise me however, given the administrations current unpopularity, that more attacks have not occurred.

There you have it in a (brief) nutshell.

[gypsum]

[wepmob2000]

Gypsum,

For some reason I can't view the video, but I assume its the footage of an experiment several years, whereby NASA flew a Boeing 720 (I think) into the desert floor to test a new type of avgas (correct me if I'm wrong, it was a long time ago, and I was only a kid at the time). Point taken, although if I recall correctly it did veer off course somewhat, and the aircraft itself required months of preparation for drone conversion, in a hanger, with dozens of NASA specialists working on it.

It lends support to my contention of no 'big' conspiracy as the chances of this being uncovered would be accordingly greater (even providing for subsequent miniturisation of control technology).

If there is anything good to be said about this situation, at least the USA is supplying Israel with PGM's, so the IDFAF does not have to rely on its reserves of 'dumb' bombs.

[gypsum]

[wepmob2000]