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scubadiver Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 1850 Location: Currently Andover
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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TimmyG wrote: |
like it has been said several times now.. pnac are a think tank.
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Did you know that during his first term Bush had 20 PNAC members in his administration?
He said it himself. |
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TimmyG Validated Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 489 Location: Manchester
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Jay Ref wrote: | Graham wrote: | The PNAC simply knew about it. Didn't plan it themselves, just knew it was going to happen. Their plan is for AFTER "a new Pearl Harbor", not to create it. |
Yup,
The evil reclusive Jewish cabal of neocon criminal masterminds put together a perfectly choreographed conspiracy...only to be undone by publishing their evil plan on a public website.
Makes about as much sense as anything else you guys have said...
-z |
how is this reasonable debate? _________________ "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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Graham Moderate Poster
Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 350 Location: bucks
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Jay Ref wrote: | Graham wrote: | The PNAC simply knew about it. Didn't plan it themselves, just knew it was going to happen. Their plan is for AFTER "a new Pearl Harbor", not to create it. |
Yup,
The evil reclusive Jewish cabal of neocon criminal masterminds put together a perfectly choreographed conspiracy...only to be undone by publishing their evil plan on a public website.
Makes about as much sense as anything else you guys have said...
-z |
More sense than you matey.
Besides, not all of them are "Jews". |
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DeFecToR Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Jay Ref wrote: |
Yup,
The evil reclusive Jewish cabal of neocon criminal masterminds put together a perfectly choreographed conspiracy...only to be undone by publishing their evil plan on a public website.
Makes about as much sense as anything else you guys have said...
-z |
Why do you always post angry tirades with no arguement presented? Thats all you do is slur, insult and whine about the topic. If you dont like what we're discussing, then offer as convincing an arguement as you can or go away.
It looks to me like your whole game plan is just to insult people and turn the thread in to a mud-slinging match.
Grow up or get lost. _________________ "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Mark Gobell On Gardening Leave
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 4529
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: |
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"Transformation" and the PNAC Document "Rebuilding America's Defenses"
Referencing the 911myths web site to which I have been referred to by Jay Ref as being able to answer certain doubts that I have expressed.
Reading the 911myths interpretation of what it's author presents to the world as the context in which the word "transformation" has been used.
911myths states:
The odd word here seems to be "transformation".
What do they mean?
Let's look back to the beginning of the same chapter.
"To preserve American military preeminence in the coming decades, the Department of Defense must move more aggressively to experiment with new technologies and operational concepts, and seek to exploit the emerging revolution in military affairs. Information technologies,in particular, are becoming more prevalent and significant components of modern military systems. These information technologies are having the same kind of transforming effects on military affairs as they are having in the larger world. The effects of this military transformation will have profound implications for how wars are fought, what kinds of weapons will dominate the battlefield and, inevitably, which nations enjoy military preeminence".
So "transformation" refers to the process of introducing more information technologies into the military.
What does 9/11 have to do with that?
Nothing at all.
In fact, the attacks demonstrated that one of the PNAC's pet schemes, a global missile shield, is entirely useless when planes can become bombs.
Case closed ?
Well let's see.
Checking the PNAC Document - Rebuilding America's Defenses we find that the word "transformation" is used 108 times.
The word "transformation" is used in the following contexts throught the PNAC document:
transformation of / to / as a process to enable:
.. Global Missile Defense System ("the prime directive for transformation")
.. US Military
.. Economies
.. War
.. Technologies
.. Information Technology
.. US Defense Department
.. Preparing for today's theatre wars
.. US Conventional Froces
.. Competetive forces within the US Military
.. Enduring Mission Requirements
.. US force posture in Korea
.. US Army transformation
.. US Army budget increases
.. US Air Force transformation
.. US Air Force budget increases
.. US Navy transformation
.. US Navy budget increases
.. US Marine Corps transformation
.. revolution in military affairs
.. Joint Strike Fighter is a roadblock to transformation
.. new space capabilities
.. will have profound implications for how wars are fought
.. US must lead transformation process
.. new opportunities for US adversaries
.. new challenges for US Military pre-eminence
.. Pentagon R&D budget
.. US National Security Strategy
.. US foward bases
.. domestic politics
.. industrial policy
.. new systems
.. new organisations
.. new operational concepts
.. space wars
.. cyberspace wars
.. Joint Vision 2010 & Joint Vision 2020
.. the bulk of US Armed Forces
.. transformation as an "enduring mission"
.. must be linked to strategic tasks to maintain US military dominance
.. revolutionary new capabilities
.. improved situational awareness and sharing of information
.. range and endurance of platforms and weapons
.. precision and miniaturisation
.. speed and stealth
.. automation and simulation
.. to prepare for changes in war,
.. to prepare for war in space,
.. to prepare for war in cyberspace,
.. to prepare for war using microbes,
.. to prepare for war using pocket robotics
.. to prepare for biological warfare
.. to prepare for biological warfare that may be useful as a political tool
.. these are merely a glimpse at the possibilities of transformation
.. establishment of transformation "laboratory" within the US Army
and finally the Pearl Harbor quotes:
"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor".
appears on page 63 in the chapter "Creating Tomorrows Dominant Force"
and again here,
"Absent a rigorous program of experimentation to investigate the nature of the revolution in military affairs as it applies to war at sea, the Navy might face a future Pearl Harbor – as unprepared for war in the post-carrier era as it was unprepared for war at the dawn of the carrier age."
appears on page 79 in the same chapter under the section "The Navy Returns to the Sea"
So, to summarise, the 911myths website present the word "transformation" as an "odd word" relating solely to "information technology".
Whereas the reality is the word "transformation" is used 108 times in the document and is the central tenet of the whole paper.
Information Technology anyone ?
Jay Ref - is your "critical thinking" process going to refer me to this site again ?
Cheers _________________ The Medium is the Massage - Marshall McLuhan. |
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TimmyG Validated Poster
Joined: 04 Apr 2006 Posts: 489 Location: Manchester
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: |
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good post.
from the myths website
Quote: | To preserve American military preeminence in the coming decades, |
which is the point of what we are saying here. the whole pnac report has makes a point of securing americas future as having the dominant military power on the planet. it goes on to say that a 'transformation' towards a stronger military (which is required to persue a more agressive foreign policy) is going to take a long time without an attack on america.
this is all i am saying. there are no 2 ways about this _________________ "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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DeFecToR Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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I find it completely insane that we are even debating this document. It is written there, as plain as can be.
I honestly think that the only reason these guys have tried to debunk it is because they've read the exact same nonsense on those two 911 debunk sites. If they had left it alone i think debunkers would be a lot less likely to offer an arguement.
And they say WE jump on flimsy sources and pass around the same bad info. _________________ "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Jay Ref Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 511
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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DeFecToR wrote: | I find it completely insane that we are even debating this document. It is written there, as plain as can be.
I honestly think that the only reason these guys have tried to debunk it is because they've read the exact same nonsense on those two 911 debunk sites. If they had left it alone i think debunkers would be a lot less likely to offer an arguement.
And they say WE jump on flimsy sources and pass around the same bad info. |
It's insane alright. PNAC is conspiring to murder massive numbers of American citizens, damage the economy, crash the stock market, all of which is *ahem* highly illegal....so let's post it on our PUBLIC WEBSITE
yeah...makes sense. Like I said before...the 9/11 myths site is a good reference for those with at least rudimentary reading comprehension skills. Don't blame Mark @ 911myths if your skills are not up to the task.
-z _________________ "Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Andrew Johnson Mighty Poster
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 1919 Location: Derbyshire
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Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Bolton Wanderers 2, Charlton Athletic 3
Queens Park Rangers 0, West Ham 2
"And now, Radio 4 will explode." _________________ Andrew
Ask the Tough Questions, Folks! |
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DeFecToR Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782
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Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Hey Jay Ref. I've given up on you pretty much completely. I think you are here to insult people and not to learn or take on board any new info we may present.
That said, i would very much like for you to actually put your money where your wide mouth is ANSWER THIS POST;
Mark Gobell wrote: | "Transformation" and the PNAC Document "Rebuilding America's Defenses"
Referencing the 911myths web site to which I have been referred to by Jay Ref as being able to answer certain doubts that I have expressed.
Reading the 911myths interpretation of what it's author presents to the world as the context in which the word "transformation" has been used.
911myths states:
The odd word here seems to be "transformation".
What do they mean?
Let's look back to the beginning of the same chapter.
"To preserve American military preeminence in the coming decades, the Department of Defense must move more aggressively to experiment with new technologies and operational concepts, and seek to exploit the emerging revolution in military affairs. Information technologies,in particular, are becoming more prevalent and significant components of modern military systems. These information technologies are having the same kind of transforming effects on military affairs as they are having in the larger world. The effects of this military transformation will have profound implications for how wars are fought, what kinds of weapons will dominate the battlefield and, inevitably, which nations enjoy military preeminence".
So "transformation" refers to the process of introducing more information technologies into the military.
What does 9/11 have to do with that?
Nothing at all.
In fact, the attacks demonstrated that one of the PNAC's pet schemes, a global missile shield, is entirely useless when planes can become bombs.
Case closed ?
Well let's see.
Checking the PNAC Document - Rebuilding America's Defenses we find that the word "transformation" is used 108 times.
The word "transformation" is used in the following contexts throught the PNAC document:
transformation of / to / as a process to enable:
.. Global Missile Defense System ("the prime directive for transformation")
.. US Military
.. Economies
.. War
.. Technologies
.. Information Technology
.. US Defense Department
.. Preparing for today's theatre wars
.. US Conventional Froces
.. Competetive forces within the US Military
.. Enduring Mission Requirements
.. US force posture in Korea
.. US Army transformation
.. US Army budget increases
.. US Air Force transformation
.. US Air Force budget increases
.. US Navy transformation
.. US Navy budget increases
.. US Marine Corps transformation
.. revolution in military affairs
.. Joint Strike Fighter is a roadblock to transformation
.. new space capabilities
.. will have profound implications for how wars are fought
.. US must lead transformation process
.. new opportunities for US adversaries
.. new challenges for US Military pre-eminence
.. Pentagon R&D budget
.. US National Security Strategy
.. US foward bases
.. domestic politics
.. industrial policy
.. new systems
.. new organisations
.. new operational concepts
.. space wars
.. cyberspace wars
.. Joint Vision 2010 & Joint Vision 2020
.. the bulk of US Armed Forces
.. transformation as an "enduring mission"
.. must be linked to strategic tasks to maintain US military dominance
.. revolutionary new capabilities
.. improved situational awareness and sharing of information
.. range and endurance of platforms and weapons
.. precision and miniaturisation
.. speed and stealth
.. automation and simulation
.. to prepare for changes in war,
.. to prepare for war in space,
.. to prepare for war in cyberspace,
.. to prepare for war using microbes,
.. to prepare for war using pocket robotics
.. to prepare for biological warfare
.. to prepare for biological warfare that may be useful as a political tool
.. these are merely a glimpse at the possibilities of transformation
.. establishment of transformation "laboratory" within the US Army
and finally the Pearl Harbor quotes:
"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor".
appears on page 63 in the chapter "Creating Tomorrows Dominant Force"
and again here,
"Absent a rigorous program of experimentation to investigate the nature of the revolution in military affairs as it applies to war at sea, the Navy might face a future Pearl Harbor – as unprepared for war in the post-carrier era as it was unprepared for war at the dawn of the carrier age."
appears on page 79 in the same chapter under the section "The Navy Returns to the Sea"
So, to summarise, the 911myths website present the word "transformation" as an "odd word" relating solely to "information technology".
Whereas the reality is the word "transformation" is used 108 times in the document and is the central tenet of the whole paper.
Information Technology anyone ?
Jay Ref - is your "critical thinking" process going to refer me to this site again ?
Cheers |
You see???
You did it again. You were argued in to a corner and you couldnt reply with any kind of solid info to back up your claims so you rambled a bit and then bailed off the topic.
This really is starting to get boring.
So, last chance to make yourself seem at all like you possess any humility and actually answer the above post.
If you cant, admit it. Be a man for once and actually live up to all the bold claims you make about your own desire for truth. _________________ "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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scubadiver Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 1850 Location: Currently Andover
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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Do I owe you an apology? I don't know
The seeming use of threatening language in the "Jay Ref" thread gave me the impression that you were on the same side as him but now that you have posted the above I'm not so sure.
Or is it a case of "I disagree with what you are saying but I will defend your right to say it"? But without the evidence to back himself up?
hmmm...
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DeFecToR Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782
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Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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scubadiver wrote: | Do I owe you an apology? I don't know
The seeming use of threatening language in the "Jay Ref" thread gave me the impression that you were on the same side as him but now that you have posted the above I'm not so sure.
Or is it a case of "I disagree with what you are saying but I will defend your right to say it"? But without the evidence to back himself up?
hmmm...
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ARE YOU FUKCING SERIOUS??
I wrote in that post that he had a prison tattoo and he was my prison bitch. If you took that seriously you need help friend!!
There was a little bit of sarchasm mixed in there i think.
Jay Ref is a tw&t. _________________ "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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scubadiver Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 1850 Location: Currently Andover
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: |
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DeFecToR wrote: |
ARE YOU FUKCING SERIOUS??
I wrote in that post that he had a prison tattoo and he was my prison bitch. If you took that seriously you need help friend!!
There was a little bit of sarchasm mixed in there i think.
Jay Ref is a tw&t. |
I can see the funny side now.
Maybe I do need help
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DeFecToR Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: |
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No problem man. We're all wafting through so much s**t right now that it can be hard to tell up from down.
Was this forum always like this? I'm pretty new here and its been non stop madness since i arrived. It was only a couple of days after joining that that whole Jon Ronson thing started and this bag of OCTers showed up soon after. _________________ "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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scubadiver Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 1850 Location: Currently Andover
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Since Jay Ref and Johnny Pixels arrived it has got increasingly tense. |
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Johnny Pixels Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 932 Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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scubadiver wrote: | Since Jay Ref and Johnny Pixels arrived it has got increasingly tense. |
Heaven forbid you should have to back up your claims with evidence. That is tense. What do you plan on doing with all your claims? Using them in some kind of legal challenge? You'll have to make sure they stand up to lawyers, and they're a whole load more picky than I am. They won't let anything get past that isn't backed by a mountain of verifiable evidence. And don't forget, they've got the entire international scientific community to back them up. You got any experts that'll trump them? |
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Jay Ref Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 511
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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Johnny Pixels wrote: | scubadiver wrote: | Since Jay Ref and Johnny Pixels arrived it has got increasingly tense. |
Heaven forbid you should have to back up your claims with evidence. That is tense. What do you plan on doing with all your claims? Using them in some kind of legal challenge? You'll have to make sure they stand up to lawyers, and they're a whole load more picky than I am. They won't let anything get past that isn't backed by a mountain of verifiable evidence. And don't forget, they've got the entire international scientific community to back them up. You got any experts that'll trump them? |
Well they do have "Dr. Jones" and Jim "beat'em to death with a suitcase" Fetzer. So I guess the answer is: No.
-z _________________ "Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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DeFecToR Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Round and round the merry-go-round.
We have posted plenty. You both just have your heads up each others arses and are unable to think with all the peanuts in your ears.
Why dont you post some evidence that BL did it?
We'll all disagree with it and then we can start over again.
Round and round we go.
"You're an idiot"
"No, you're an idiot"
"YOU're an idiot"
"YOU ARE an idiot"
Though to be fair, you are an idiot Jay Ref.
"Ner ner. I'm telling my mummy. You an your ad homs. Ner ner." _________________ "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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Leiff Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 509
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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If the 9/11 truth movement is such a hopeless cause who's claims are nothing but rubbish, why do Johnny Pixels and Jay Ref (and their controllers) feel the need to come here and debunk us?
Is this some kind of charitable act - donating their precious time and considerable effort - to save us from our delusions?
You are too kind! |
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scubadiver Validated Poster
Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 1850 Location: Currently Andover
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Leiff wrote: | If the 9/11 truth movement is such a hopeless cause who's claims are nothing but rubbish, why do Johnny Pixels and Jay Ref (and their controllers) feel the need to come here and debunk us?
Is this some kind of charitable act - donating their precious time and considerable effort - to save us from our delusions?
You are too kind! |
You should have started this as a new thread! |
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Jay Ref Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 511
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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DeFecToR wrote: | Round and round the merry-go-round.
We have posted plenty. You both just have your heads up each others arses and are unable to think with all the peanuts in your ears.
Why dont you post some evidence that BL did it? |
The 9/11 commission report is chock full of evidence of UBL's involvement.
- There's the money trail from Atta to Binalshib, to KSM.
- There's the video "last will and testaments" of the "martyrs".
- There's the confession of Moussaui
- Al Qaeda confirms Moussaui's membership.
- There's the fact that Al Qaeda previously called for jihad and accepted responsibility for previous terrorist attacks against American interests as part of the jihad.
- There's the continuing threats of more attacks by AQ.
- Then there's also the video where UBL admits it himself.
I'm sure there's more but that's just off the top of my head. I am quite sure you are aware of all of the above...you just would rather "believe" the dogma of your silly cult.
It doesn't matter...my presence here is not about you...it's about allowing you to show your true colours to the lurkers who may come here with actual concerns about 9/11. Once they see your responses to me they will see what you folks are about.
Quote: |
We'll all disagree with it and then we can start over again.
Round and round we go.
"You're an idiot"
"No, you're an idiot"
"YOU're an idiot"
"YOU ARE an idiot"
Though to be fair, you are an idiot Jay Ref.
"Ner ner. I'm telling my mummy. You an your ad homs. Ner ner." |
Don't like it? Then quit it.
-z _________________ "Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Johnny Pixels Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006 Posts: 932 Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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Leiff wrote: | If the 9/11 truth movement is such a hopeless cause who's claims are nothing but rubbish, why do Johnny Pixels and Jay Ref (and their controllers) feel the need to come here and debunk us?
Is this some kind of charitable act - donating their precious time and considerable effort - to save us from our delusions?
You are too kind! |
Because there are people who lurk here, and guest who never post. If we were to leave your poor quality theories alone, then they may assume that they are true.
So a big hello to all lurkers and guests and people just passing through. |
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scar Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006 Posts: 724 Location: Brighton
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: Those on the fence... |
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Jay Ref wrote: | It doesn't matter...my presence here is not about you... |
Its been quite obvious the entire time... Goad people here into responses that suit your agenda of suppressing the truth.
The problem you face Jay Ref is that honest lurkers will find the truth, your disinfo tactics not withstanding. How many wake up to the official story everyday? None.
This clip explains why most here dont bother to respond to you and also why you are here (desperate attempt to fool those on the fence to climb back down). _________________ Positive...energy...activates...constant...elevation. (Gravediggaz) |
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DeFecToR Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 782
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Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Jay Ref wrote: |
[*]There's the money trail from Atta to Binalshib, to KSM.
[*]There's the video "last will and testaments" of the "martyrs".
[*]There's the confession of Moussaui
[*]Al Qaeda confirms Moussaui's membership.
[*]There's the fact that Al Qaeda previously called for jihad and accepted responsibility for previous terrorist attacks against American interests as part of the jihad.
[*]There's the continuing threats of more attacks by AQ.
[*]Then there's also the video where UBL admits it himself.
[/list]
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None of which i find the slightest bit convincing.
Keep trying though apologist.
Jay Ref wrote: |
It doesn't matter...my presence here is not about you...it's about allowing you to show your true colours to the lurkers who may come here with actual concerns about 9/11. Once they see your responses to me they will see what you folks are about.
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Er. You may wish to read over some of your own posts. You come accross as an angry troll. You are doing us ALL the favours friend.
Perhaps if you were polite in your debunking you may have some effect on people other than making then want to puke.
Jay Ref wrote: |
Don't like it? Then quit it.
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Not at all! Like i said before, you are more funny to me now than you were. You're still an apologist to nazi killers, baby-rapists, drug dealers, human trafficers, war profiteers and tw&ts, but you are a lot funnier than before. Its because i see you as one of those crazy deranged monkeys that you drive past at the zoo; kind of annoying as it rips off your wing mirror but you still want to feed it.
Oh no my little Jay Lord, i intend to be the one who gets that last post in on the day you die. _________________ "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
-William James |
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