08Dec1980: Would John Lennon have been a Truther? CIA murder

[Ravenmoon]

Working Class Hero - John Lennon

As soon as your born they make you feel small,
By giving you no time instead of it all,
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so turniping crazy you can't follow their rules,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years,
Then they expect you to pick a career,
When you can't really function you're so full of fear,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,
And you think you're so clever and classless and free,
But you're still turniping peasents as far as I can see,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
There's room at the top they are telling you still,
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks on the hill,
A working class hero is something to be.
A working class hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero well just follow me,
If you want to be a hero well just follow me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU

[GodSaveTheTeam]

Yes, it's a nice rewrite of ol' Zimmerman's Masters of War.

[rodin]

According to Alan Watt the NWO agenda is to destroy all existing religions (you know, the ones the elite gave us in the first place) and replace it with a scientific religion. One in which we will accept eugenics as being best for the species including population reduction, emasculation, cloning, GM humans etc. Of course, the elite bloodlines will not be affected - only the 'profane' - the 'commoners' - the 'goyim'.

Alan also noted that same things pop up in all countries simultaneously - as if the meme as somehow spontaneously erupted...

[scienceplease 2]

Almost because he was a Beatle, it is easy to miss John Lennon's contribution to the Peace Movement.

I guess I was too young when he was killed to really appreciate his political impact. It is very interesting to see what a powerful force John Lennon was and the impact he had on the US war in Vietnam.

Watch the documentary "US vs John Lennon" and see for yourself.

It has certainly transformed my view not only of John but also Yoko Ono.

http://freedocumentaries.org/int.php?filmID=206

My guess is that John Lennon would be a Truther.

[wildheart]

I absolutely agree, my friend. I never really appreciated him until I watched the Anthology docs back in '95 and then wanted to find out more about him and what he stood for. As a husband and father I believe he was flawed but as a human being who stood up to be counted for what was right and true he was the man.

You can find flaws with some of his work - I personally have a problem with the song 'Imagine' ... 'Imagine no possessions', written by a man whose wife had a 'specially refrigerated room in their Dakota apartment to house her furs but the broader picture I get is of a man who wanted change and wanted to encourage *us* to change. Yoko gets a bad press too which in my opinion is undeserved.

But I am here to be proved wrong !

Peace.

[scienceplease 2]

[scienceplease 2]

[wildheart]

[quote="scienceplease 2
But check this out from a John Lennon fan website:

http://www.john-lennon.net/whoauthorizedtheassassinationofjohnlennon.h tm

As radical and conspiratorial as anything you'd expect to find on a truther site![/quote]

*Very* interesting read, thanks. Definitely mind control, I'd say and, possibly, another gunman ?? Have you seen this ? http://www.jfkmontreal.com/john_lennon/video120980/JWL.htm

[scienceplease 2]

More discussion of John over at

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/dec/05/john-lennon-murder-anniver sary

The latest documentary focuses in on the day (and then sort of by-passes the murder) and of course ignores he big picture... interesting comments though...

[outsider]

[scienceplease 2]

[Andrew.]

There is some evidence scienceplease 2, I’ve heard of, that in his last published interview that he made, he hinted at Tavistock social engineering and that he had been a dupe of it.

I didn’t know if you were aware of it or not.

[Andrew.]

[fish5133]

I was out preaching on the streets of Liverpool last week on the evening of the anniversary of JLs murder and had to use his lyric about imagining there is no heaven. Ive not really looked at his words that much but do seem to think he had touched on the prophetic words of the Book of Revelation which point to a final one world order established albeit temporarily based on a false peace and requiring its subjects to worship the beast. As many of us may pass into eternity before we see the complete fulfillment of these prophecies its a useful marker to lay down for our descendants who may realise thay are reaching that point of history and may take a more serious look at the Scriptures and find out what to do.
Sadly or maybe thankfully (i dont know which) John Lennon no longer needs to imagine theres no heaven or hell.
Certainly his lyrics try to instill some utopian hope in at times a pretty hopelss world.. but for me and many its the words of Christ and the testimony that "he is not here- he has risen" that will be my strength and comfort as I slip into eternity..
Thats a good place for my Xmas message -- the most perfect gift was given for imperfect man and its not wrapped in glittering paper but strips of cloth amidst the sheep poo and cow dung!
Peace

[scienceplease 2]

[Andrew.]

[Andrew.]

[outsider]

Seems this thread is going all over the place.

Bottom line to me is, John Lennon was a good guy, who spoke out about the wrongness of the Vietnam War. That he was a good guy is further heavily indicated, in that he was targetted by the Feds and CIA, and even had Reagan openly give a thinly veiled threat to his well-being; and that he was assassinated in an official hit, probably using a programmed 'Patsy' to take the blame.

I expect to see John Lennon when I get upstairs!!

[Andrew.]

[scienceplease 2]

[Andrew.]

[Andrew.]

Link


"Says Dr. John Coleman in his 'The Committee of 300'."

And he says John Lennon got wise to it, too.

[scienceplease 2]

[Andrew.]

[scienceplease 2]

[scienceplease 2]

Link


http://imaginepeacetower.com/

[scienceplease 2]

[Whitehall_Bin_Men]

PART I: LENNON’S MURDER
http://www.jfkmontreal.com/john_lennon/Chapter01A.htm

Chapter 1: The Crime Scene
The Dakota

John Lennon was shot and killed on December 8, 1980, at about 10:50 pm, as he and his wife Yoko Ono attempted to enter their apartment at the Dakota building on West 72nd Street in Manhattan across from Central Park West. Lennon and Ono were returning from a record plant when the shooting occurred. Ironically, Lennon had autographed a copy of his most recent album (Double Fantasy) for the accused assailant as Lennon and Ono left for the record plant at around 5:00 pm that evening.

In my research of the Lennon case, I quickly realized that details about the crime scene are sketchy at best. Clear unobstructed photographs of the Dakota's entrance are simply unavailable to the public. To remedy the situation, I traveled to Manhattan recently and personally photographed about 35 pictures of the Dakota with emphasis on the entrance, the area where Lennon was shot. I also obtained older photos of the Dakota from Roman Polanski's renowned 1968 movie, Rosemary's Baby, which was filmed at the Dakota. The information and crime scene photographs I obtained reveals quite a bit of new information about the murder.

The Dakota is an upscale older apartment/condominium complex with an entrance on West 72nd Street. The entrance, shown in Figure 1, is two stories high with a fancy archway overhead. Architecturally, the Dakota is a set of buildings covering an entire block, as shown in aerial photograph labeled Figure 2.

Figure 1: Entrance of the Dakota from W. 72nd Street



Figure 2: Aerial view of the Dakota


The elegant building complex has two security levels: a guard booth at the entrance (left), and a main lobby about 25-to-30 feet inside the front entrance (right). A doorman is stationed at the guard booth and keeps watch over the entrance. A desk clerk is stationed at the main lobby. Someone is on duty at both positions 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

A maintenance man (concierge) is frequently on duty as well, but it is unclear if that position is filled 24-by-7 like the others. The maintenance man is apparently stationed at a concierge stand in the main lobby, next to the front desk. I observed such a person assist the doorman unload luggage from an SUV temporarily parked in the entryway. The maintenance man then carried the luggage through a door which apparently leads to a service elevator.

A maintenance man (aka, elevator operator; aka, handyman) was reportedly on duty the night Lennon was killed. In fact, Lennon reportedly collapsed by the concierge stand after being shot.

There are seven critical locations in the entrance area: (1) the arched entrance; this is where Chapman reportedly stood when the shots were fired. (2) the courtyard gates; (3) the "entryway" which provides passage from the entrance to the courtyard gates, a distance of about 47 feet from the front entrance to the courtyard; (4) the doorman's booth (aka, the guard booth) on the outside of the entrance to the left; (5) a lobby on the right (not shown in picture) where Lennon collapsed after being shot; six stairs lead to the lobby; (6) a service elevator on the left, (not shown in picture); (7) a door on the left (not shown) which leads to the service elevator.

NYPD Police Report

Appendix D contains the official NYPD Police Report of John Lennon's murder, dated December 9, 1980. Surprisingly, I had no trouble obtaining it. I simply mailed a certified letter to the NYPD requesting the report and within a month a copy was in my possession. Unfortunately, the report's astonishing lack of detail was disappointing to say the least. There is no precise description of the crime itself, no narrative of where Lennon was standing when he was shot, no explanation of where Chapman was standing when he fired, no sketches, no names of witnesses, nothing of any consequence. Had Chapman not pled guilty months later, the prosecutors would have had little evidence to build a case against him. At a minimum, one would think the police report would contain names of witnesses. The report barely indicates that a crime occurred at all. Here is a summary of the rudimentary information found in the report:


John Lennon was the victim.

Mark David Chapman was the perpetrator.

Chapman was carrying $2,201.76 when he was arrested.

The crime location was 1 West 72 St. (the Dakota) at the archway entrance.

The weapon used was a ".38 caliber snub nose."

The crime occurred on December 8, 1980 at 10:50 PM.

The arresting officer was Stephen Spiro assisted by patrolman Peter Cullen, both of the 20th Precinct.


The following are excerpts from the report which describe the crime in extremely general terms.



...the victim was shot with the described weapon by the named suspect causing the victim's demise. ...


P.O. Stephen Spiro...of the 20th Precinct responded to the scene of occurrence and arrested the perpetrator who was identified as Mark D. Chapman. ... The Perp was arraigned ... on 12/9, he was remanded, no bail. This case is closed pending final court disposition.




That is essentially all the information of substance provided in the NYPD police report. (see Appendix D) The rest is bureaucratic paperwork, a whitewash. That's putting it mildly.

NYC Medical Examiner refuses to release autopsy report

On July 1, 2003, I sent a letter to the New York City Medical Examiner's Office requesting a copy of John Lennon's autopsy report. I was referred to the Medical Examiner's Office by the NYPD after making a similar request from them. Subsequently, I received a letter, dated July 18, 2003, from Ellen Borakove, Director of Public Affairs at the Office of Chief Medical Examiner, Charles S. Hirsch, MD. The following is the contents of Ms. Borakove's letter:



Dear Mr. [Astucia:]

We are in receipt of your recent letter requesting a copy of the autopsy report for Mr. John Lennon. Please be advised that our records are not open for public inspection. However, our records could be released with the written authorization of the next of kin. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Ellen Borakove, Director, Public Affairs




In other words, Ms. Borakove is advising me to contact Yoko Ono and get permission to see John's autopsy report, something Borakove obviously knows will lead nowhere. Being the widow of John Lennon, Yoko is a constantly inundated with letters and requests from all sorts of people and will likely not respond to a stranger, particularly someone asking questions about a painful, traumatic experience she would prefer to forget.

Why is John Lennon's autopsy report being suppressed? Since when did autopsy reports become closed for public inspection? I do not doubt the truthfulness of Ms. Borakove's statement, but when did this sort of information become off limits to the public? It seems odd that the autopsy report of a celebrity living in America--or anyone living in America, for that matter--would be denied to any American citizen who requests it. Who is being protected? Certainly not the deceased.

Besides being denied access to the autopsy report, I sent three additional requests to Lieutenant Michael Pascucci, at the NYPD Legal Bureau, for other items related to the crime. All three requests were refused. The requested items were as follows: (a) the personal notes of Officer Peter Cullen, (b) the personal notes of Officer Stephen Spiro, and (c) crime scene photographs. As previously stated, Cullen and Spiro were the arresting officers of murder suspect Mark David Chapman. The reason given by Lieutenant Pascucci for refusing to release copies of Cullen's and Spiro's personal notes was "unwarranted invasion of privacy." It's interesting that excerpts from Officer Spiro's personal notes were published in British author Fenton Bresler's book, Who Killed John Lennon? I'm not criticizing the British, but why does a British author have free access to American police records which are denied to an American author?

Copies of all referenced letters between Ellen Borakove, Lieutenant Michael Pascucci, and myself are shown in Exhibits M through T (in Appendix E).

Chapman’s Gun

Fenton Bresler described in great detail—in his book, Who Killed John Lennon? (1989)—how Chapman purchased—on October 27, 1980—a .38 Special revolver from J&S Enterprises Ltd, a gun shop in midtown Honolulu. Bresler even provided the weapon’s serial number, 577570, and implied that the stated weapon was used by Chapman to murder John Lennon about six weeks later on December 8, 1980.15 The NYPD’s police report indicates that a ".38 cal snub nose" was the weapon found at the crime scene; however, the serial number is not shown in the report. Consequently, it is unclear if the serial number of the .38 revolver purchased by Chapman on October 27, 1980 matches the weapon found by the NYPD at the crime scene on December 8, 1980.

Tracing the murder weapon is convoluted because Chapman made two trips to New York City: one from October 29, 1980 through November 10, 1980; another on December 6, 1980. On the first trip, there is little doubt that Chapman carried the .38 revolver, serial # 577570, as Bresler described. In fact, Bresler gave a detailed account of how Chapman brought the gun with him to NYC on October 29th but forgot to bring bullets, and subsequently flew to Atlanta to get hollow-point bullets from his cop friend, Dana Reeves (aka, Gene Scott). The reason for the Atlanta trip was because NYC forbade the purchase of ammunition by persons not living in the state of New York.

Although Bresler presents several interesting facts, his discussion about the murder weapon itself is confusing. For example, Bresler gives Dana Reeves a pseudonym, Gene Scott. This is an unnecessary layer of confusion since Reeves’s identity was revealed by Jim Gaines in an article, "Descent Into Madness," published in People Magazine on June 22, 1981. I have analyzed Chapters 13 and 14 of Bresler’s book quite a bit and he covers so much ground that is impossible to determine if the gun Chapman purchased on October 27, 1980 is the same one found by the NYPD at the crime scene on December 8, 1980. Bresler even introduces the possibility that Chapman threw the gun and the bullets into the ocean after returning to Honolulu from his first trip to New York. I will address that later. For now, let’s focus on matching the serial number of the purchased gun to the weapon found at the crime scene.

On August 26, 2003, I phoned the NYPD switchboard (646-610-5000, listed on website) and asked to speak with Lieutenant Michael Pascucci of the Legal Bureau. I do not know Mr. Pascucci personally, but I have exchanged several letters with him regarding requests for various documents related to the Lennon case, including the police report. Mr. Pascucci was out to lunch when I phoned, but I spoke with a colleague and asked if I could obtain the serial number of the weapon found at the crime scene. I specifically asked if it would be possible to get the serial number quickly without going through a lot of red tape. Unfortunately, my fast-track request was denied, but I was advised to submit an official request with the FOIL Unit [Freedom of Information Legal Unit]. I am continuing my research in this area and will publish the serial number of the weapon found at the crime scene when it is in my possession; however, it could time for the NYPD to respond, should they choose to release the serial number at all. In the meantime, I shall proceed without it.

There is a strong possibility that the .38 revolver Chapman purchased on October 27, 1980 is NOT the same .38 revolver found at the crime scene on December 8, 1980. There is also a possibility that if the serial numbers match, that the gun was brought to the crime scene by someone other than Chapman. In both scenarios, I suspect the gun was planted, that Chapman was unarmed on the night of the murder, and the notion that he was carrying a gun was a hypnotic suggestion planted in his mind. Think about it. If a second gunman killed Lennon, the planners wouldn’t want Chapman to carry a loaded weapon to the crime scene. He might start firing wildly, possibly shooting the second gunman or doorman Jose Perdomo. Chapman’s role was to be the patsy, not the shooter.

A smarter approach would be to send Chapman to NYC on a prior visit carrying the murder weapon, and plant a hypnotic obsession in his mind to kill Lennon. The planners had no intention of killing Lennon during Chapman’s first visit to New York. The objective was to create a real image in Chapman’s mind that he carried a gun to NYC while he struggled to resist an obsession to murder Lennon. Chapman admitting fighting the obsession and ultimately won during the first visit and did not harm Lennon. On the second trip to NYC, Chapman would be unarmed, but through the use of hypnosis/mind control, Chapman would confuse the second trip to NYC with the first. Hence, he would confuse his real memory of being armed during his first trip to NYC with his second trip where he was unarmed.

Let’s review the stated scenario again because it’s complicated. During Chapman’s first trip to NYC from Honolulu—from October 29, 1980 through November 10, 1980—he brought with him a gun similar to the murder weapon found at the crime scene on December 8, 1980, but he forgot to bring bullets. Because of NYC’s strict gun control laws, Chapman flew to Atlanta—from November 7 through November 9, 1980—where he obtained bullets from his cop friend, Dana Reeves. Keep in mind, this all occurred during Chapman’s first trip to NYC which ended on November 10, 1980 when Chapman returned to Honolulu. But Lennon wasn’t killed until a month later, two days after Chapman arrived in NYC a second time on December 6, 1980.

The question is this: Did Chapman bring with him to NYC on December 6, 1980 the same gun he brought with him on October 29, 1980, the same gun he purchased from J&S Enterprises in Honolulu on October 27, 1980? (serial # 577570) In addition, did Chapman bring with him to NYC on December 6, 1980 the same hollow-point bullets he obtained from Dana Reeves (aka, Gene Scott) in Atlanta during his trip there from November 7 through November 9, 1980? Bresler does not make this clear at all. Instead he confuses things by introducing several side issues which are interesting but divert attention from the murder weapon found at the crime scene. Bresler jumps back and forth between Chapman’s first and second trips, getting into all sorts of minutia, and completely loses track of the alleged murder weapon. Again, did Chapman carry the same gun on both trips? Did he carry the same bullets on the second trip that he acquired from Dana Reeves on the first trip?

Adding to the confusion, Bresler introduces a major anomaly by citing the following excerpt from Albert Goldman’s book, The Lives of John Lennon:



By late November Mark was telling Gloria [his wife] that it was time he grew up. He was a married man now and ought to be able to support a family. What he needed to do first, however, was to go off by himself for a while, to think things over. He had decided to return to New York. She needn’t fear that he would do anything wrong. He had thrown the gun and the bullets into the ocean.16




Run that by me again? Chapman threw the gun and the bullets in the ocean? That is probably the most profound bit of information in Bresler’s entire book, yet Bresler leaves it unchallenged. Remember, Bresler is quoting Goldman. It was Goldman who asserted that Chapman threw the .38 revolver—serial number 577570—in the ocean, along with the hollow-point bullets acquired from Dana Reeves (aka, Gene Scott). Did this event happen or not?

Bresler makes no attempt to directly refute Goldman’s bombshell assertion. Instead, Bresler criticizes Goldman for making several mistakes of lesser magnitude. True, many of Goldman’s conclusions about Lennon’s personal life—and other facts—are dubious. But since Bresler was criticizing Goldman anyway, he should have challenged Goldman’s revelation that Chapman threw the original gun and bullets into the ocean. How could Bresler let an assertion of that magnitude go unchallenged? Yet that is precisely what he did.

Bresler then fixated on the logistics of Chapman’s second trip to NYC. Most accounts claim Chapman flew from Honolulu to NYC on December 6, 1980, stopping in Chicago only to change planes. Bresler claims, however, that Chapman left Honolulu around December 2nd, visited his grandmother in Chicago for three days, then took a flight from Chicago to NYC on December 6, 1980. I have no reason to challenge Bresler’s version of events, but it seems to be somewhat trivial. Bresler acts as though this a major discovery. There’s nothing wrong with clarifying Chapman’s itinerary, but Bresler devoted several pages to it while ignoring Goldman’s more important assertion that Chapman threw his gun and bullets in the ocean while in Honolulu.

It would seem that Bresler could easily resolve the anomaly by interviewing Chapman directly. Bresler gets around this by claiming he requested an interview with Chapman but Chapman refused. Obviously that’s an excellent excuse; however, Bresler may have maneuvered events to discourage Chapman from granting him an interview. Anyone who has read Bresler’s book knows that Chapman is depicted with great empathy, but Bresler also interjects a recurring theme that Chapman has repressed homosexual tendencies. The gay theme is completely gratuitous as far as I can determine. Chapman’s sexual preference has no bearing on his guilt of innocence; it’s just something Bresler interjected for no apparent reason. Think about it. If you were Chapman, would you grant an interview to someone who called you queer? Chapman has never acknowledged being gay or bisexual. He led a heterosexual life. I don’t mean to seem anti-gay, but in reality, most straight men are extremely offended when someone suggests—in a serious manner—that they are gay. By implying Chapman was gay, Bresler virtually guaranteed Chapman would deny his request for an interview, thereby leaving critical issues unresolved, like whether Chapman threw his gun and bullets in the ocean as Goldman claims.

To summarize events related to the alleged murder weapon, here is a timeline of Chapman’s purchase of the .38 revolver in Honolulu and his subsequent trips to NYC:


October 27, 1980—Chapman purchases a .38 Special revolver for $169 from J&S Enterprises Ltd, a gun shop in midtown Honolulu. There is no waiting period. The transaction is completed within an hour. The serial number of the weapon is # 577570.17

October 29, 1980—Chapman flies to Newark, NJ from Honolulu. He has a one-way ticket.18

November 7, 1980—Chapman flies from NYC to Atlanta to get bullets for his gun because he forgot to purchase bullets before leaving Honolulu and was unable to buy them in NYC; local gun laws prevented out-of-state residents from purchasing ammunition there. The reason Chapman goes to Atlanta is to see his cop friend, Dana Reeves (aka, Gene Scott), who gives him hollow-point bullets.19

November 9, 1980—Chapman flies back to NYC and checks into the Hotel Olcott at 27 West 72nd St., less than 200 yards from the Dakota.20

November 10, 1980—Chapman flies back to Honolulu because Dakota doorman Jose Perdomo told him John and Yoko were "out of town."21

At some point after November 10th, while in Honolulu, Chapman reportedly throws his gun and bullets into the ocean. This assertion was made by Albert Goldman in his book, The Lives of John Lennon. The assertion was mentioned casually by Fenton Bresler in his book, Who Killed John Lennon? but was unchallenged by Bresler.22

December 6, 1980—Chapman flies to NYC. Two days later, Lennon is shot dead at the Dakota. Chapman is arrested for the murder and subsequently receives a 20-year sentence. The NYPD finds a .38 revolver at the crime scene, but the police report does not specify the weapon’s serial number. Consequently, it is unknown if the .38 revolver found by police at the crime scene matches the serial number (577570) of .38 revolver Chapman purchased on October 27, 1980 from J&S Enterprises Ltd, a gun shop in midtown Honolulu. This is the gun that Chapman reportedly threw in the ocean, along with the hollow-point bullets he got from Dana Reeves (aka, Gene Scott).

http://www.jfkmontreal.com/john_lennon/Chapter01A.htm

[Whitehall_Bin_Men]

killed Monday 8th December 1980 - Would John Lennon have been a Truther?

NEW - Lennon's true assassin may have been a hit man supplied by Jewish mobster, Morris Levy

[outsider]

US v John Lennon:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-us-vs-john-lennon/

(Full-length video documentary)