Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: BREXIT vote for Xenophobia
Many people are trying to make out that the Brexit vote was a rejection of the elite. But we have to ask why are English and Welsh people rejecting the rich and powerful by kicking poor Eastern Europeans in the groin. Also, why didn't Scotland or Northern Ireland vote Brexit.
The vote was far more to do with delusional ideas of the British Empire and British exceptionalism. There was a high degree of racism to the vote. In the 19th C, divided whites into different sub-races: Alpines, NOrdics, Aryans, Mediterreans, and this is what the Briexit vote was about.
It was very clear what English and Welsh people were saying: 'We think the UK is rich and we don't know that it is a major debtor country. The EU wants us to give our money away to Eastern Europeans, and people from the Middle East and Africa. They are our inferiors and the only thing that we should be doing is exploiting them."
Wolverhampton, Brickklin Street flats, 1961
‘Stafford, Cannock, Wolverhampton (pictured here in 1961). Different towns, same message: “There’s no decent work”; “the politicians don’t care about us”; “we’ve been forgotten”.’ Photograph: David Bagnall/Rex Shutterstock
Monday 27 June 2016 07.00 BST Last modified on Monday 27 June 2016 10.23 BST
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On 2 May this year, I set off to walk from Liverpool to London, a journey of 340 miles that would take me a month. I was walking in the footsteps of the People’s March for Jobs, a column of 300-odd unemployed men and women who, on the same day in 1981, exactly 35 years previously, had set off from the steps of St George’s Hall to walk to Trafalgar Square.
In the two years after Margaret Thatcher had been elected, unemployment had gone from 1 to 3 million, as her policies laid waste to Britain’s manufacturing base. In 1981, we saw Rupert Murdoch buy the Times and Sunday Times. We witnessed inner-city riots, unprecedented in their scale and violence, in Liverpool and London. The formation of the SDP split the left. The Tories lost their first assault on the coal miners, capitulating over the closure of 23 pits.
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My father, Pete Carter, was one of those who organised the original walk. My journey was an attempt to work out what had happened to Britain in the intervening years. What I saw and heard gave me an alarming sense of how the immense social changes wrought by Thatcherism are still having a profound effect on communities all over England. It also meant that when I awoke last Friday to the result of the EU referendum, I wasn’t remotely surprised.
Some of those charity shops had closed down. What does it say about a town when even the charity shops are struggling?
I left Liverpool the week of the Hillsborough inquest verdict, flowers and scarves still adorning lampposts. The inquest had finally vindicated the families of the 96 killed at the 1989 FA Cup semi-final, exposing the lies and cover-ups of the police, the media and the political class, who had spent over a quarter of a century traducing not only those fans, mostly working class, but also the city and its people. In fact, that demonising had found expression in 1981, too, when Geoffrey Howe suggested to Thatcher privately that, after the Toxteth riots, Liverpool should be subject to a “managed decline”.
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I walked through Widnes and Warrington, past huge out-of-town shopping centres and through the wastelands of industrial decay. In Salford, down streets where all the pubs were boarded up and local shops, if you could find them, had brick walls for windows and prison-like metal doors, I found an Airbnb. My host was selling her terraced house. I sat in her living room as the estate agent brought around potential buyers. They were all buy-to-let investors from the south of England, building property portfolios in the poverty, as if this was one giant fire sale.
“Is this a thing now?” I asked the agent.
“It is,” he replied.
Derelict houses in Salford
‘In Salford, down streets where all the pubs were boarded up and local shops, if you could find one, had brick walls for windows and prison-like metal doors, I found an AirBnB.’ Photograph: Don McPhee for the Guardian
On I walked. Through Stockport, Macclesfield, Congleton. The flag of St George flew, from flagpoles, from guttering. Leave posters were everywhere. I didn’t see a single one for remain.
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Just before Stoke-on-Trent, I passed the immense workings of the Chatterley Whitfield Colliery, closed down in the 1970s. The mine, one of Europe’s largest, had become a heritage centre and museum. In 1993 even that had shut.
In Hanley, I started asking people what they thought about the referendum and if they wouldn’t mind telling me how they’d be voting. There was little reticence. “Out,” they would say. “No question.”
“Why?” I’d ask.
“Immigration,” would come the response. “We want our country back.”
The Potteries museum opened in 1981, the year of the People’s March. There I read about Stoke’s industrial heritage, the ceramics, the coal mines, the steel industry, employing tens of thousands of people. All gone now.
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Stafford, Cannock, Wolverhampton. Different towns, same message: “There’s no decent work”; “the politicians don’t care about us”; “we’ve been forgotten”; “betrayed”; “there’s too many immigrants, and we can’t compete with the wages they’ll work for”. Nobody used the word humiliation, but that’s the sense I got.
In Wolverhampton, the Express and Star newspaper was reporting on the fury from Wolves fans at the football club’s new shirt sponsor. It was to be the Money Shop, a payday lender. In Walsall, where I went to college, I walked around a town centre unrecognisable from 30 years earlier. Everywhere there were betting shops, dozens of them, and right next door to every betting shop was a pawnbroker or payday lender. It was a ghoulish form of mutualism, or symbiosis, the “natural” market at its most efficient.
And there was another thing I noticed about all of these towns: the ubiquity of mobility scooters, and not all of them being driven by the elderly. Was this a manifestation of the established links between poverty and ill health?
I walked on. Birmingham glittered, a skyline of cranes and high streets of fashionable shops, a confidence, a bounce. But out of the city centre the familiar motifs returned: boarded up pubs and shuttered shops, leave posters in windows, and a proliferation of hand car washes. It began to make sense why these have blossomed in modern Britain: why invest in expensive automated machinery when labour can be sourced so cheaply.
Nuneaton, the home town of George Eliot and Ken Loach, had more charity shops in its high street than anywhere I’ve ever seen. And some of those charity shops had closed down. What does it say about a town when even the charity shops are struggling?
Vote leave campaigner
‘I started asking people if they wouldn’t mind telling me how they’d be voting. There was little reticence. “Out,” they would say. “Why?” I’d ask. “Immigration,” would come the response.’ Photograph: Matt Cardy/Getty Images
In Coventry, whose car industry is now mostly gone, there seemed to be a construction frenzy. These were mostly new buildings for the colleges and universities, competing not only for a bigger share of domestic students but also for the lucrative foreign student market. A friend doing an MA in the city told me that 90% of the students on his course were from overseas, and the majority of them Chinese.
As I moved south, I thought that the economic picture might change, but in Rugby, Bedford, Luton the high streets all had the by now familiar composition: betting shops, fast-food outlets, tattoo parlours. And the answer to the question “in” or “out” never changed either. “We’ve been left behind,” a white, middle-aged man told me at a bus stop as I rested in Hemel Hempstead. “Those politicians don’t care about us. Immigration has ruined this country.”
I walked into central London, through Chiswick, past people sitting at pavement cafes, shops selling expensive furniture, estate agents offering two-bedroom flats for a million pounds. Through Hyde Park and on to Wellington Arch, with all the pomp and puffery of empire, and then Buckingham Palace, as tourists lapped up the pageantry. I was in, literally and spiritually, another country.
In 1935, a young Laurie Lee set off to walk across Spain, from north to south. In the book the adventure would eventually lead to, As I Walked Out One Midsummer Morning, Lee describes a country riven by inequality, of communities in grinding poverty, and an out-of-touch ruling elite. The fascists and the communists both laid claim to the discontents, the rhetoric becoming increasingly polarised. The narrative resonated across the European continent. By the time Lee got to Malaga, in the summer of 1936, the Spanish civil war had begun.
Mike Carter helping a student on his walk from Liverpool to London
A student by the gates of Downing Street approached Mike Carter and asked him if he could tell her who was pictured on her worksheet. It was Margaret Thatcher. Photograph: Mike Carter
I thought about Lee’s journey, about Europe in the 1930s and 40s, and thanked God for the 70 years of peace we’d had since. I walked up Whitehall. On 30 May 1981, Thatcher had refused to meet the marchers to accept their 250,000-strong petition. On 30 May 2016, I paused at Downing Street, all high fences and machine guns now, and spoke to one of the armed officers. He told me about the attacks on police pensions, about the terrible morale these days in the force.
A girl came up, spoke in faltering English. She was on a school trip from Belgium. She had a project to complete, she said. Could I help her? She held up a piece of A4 paper. “Can you tell me who this is, please?” On it was a photograph of Margaret Thatcher. _________________ --
'Suppression of truth, human spirit and the holy chord of justice never works long-term. Something the suppressors never get.' David Southwell
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com http://aanirfan.blogspot.com
Martin Van Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Martin Van Creveld: I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing."
Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: BREXIT vote for Xenophobia
insidejob wrote:
Many people are trying to make out that the Brexit vote was a rejection of the elite. But we have to ask why are English and Welsh people rejecting the rich and powerful by kicking poor Eastern Europeans in the groin. Also, why didn't Scotland or Northern Ireland vote Brexit.
The vote was far more to do with delusional ideas of the British Empire and British exceptionalism. There was a high degree of racism to the vote. In the 19th C, divided whites into different sub-races: Alpines, NOrdics, Aryans, Mediterreans, and this is what the Briexit vote was about.
It was very clear what English and Welsh people were saying: 'We think the UK is rich and we don't know that it is a major debtor country. The EU wants us to give our money away to Eastern Europeans, and people from the Middle East and Africa. They are our inferiors and the only thing that we should be doing is exploiting them."
Several things here to challenge methinks
How do you know what people were saying? Because the MSM said so? I can't think of anything where the views of 52% of the population can be summed up in one sentence
I think many leave voters did vote leave because of their rejection of the elite and its vision of an EU dictatorship. I did. So did the likes of George Galloway and many others opposed to the elite.
There is no evidence that N Irish and Scots are less racist than English and Welsh. Many Scots and N Irish would have been influenced by the impact of Brexit on Scottish Independence (since some believe an independent Scotland would be less viable outside the EU) and North / South trade, movement and relations on the island of Ireland. Why do you suppose Gibraltar voted remain. Not because its inhabitants are inherently less racist than the English.
There are of course racists who voted leave and institutional racism is still alive and kicking in British institutions but that does not mean 52% of ref voters are racist. People voted for many different reasons. It is a convenient meme of the elite to paint leavers as ignorant racist plebs. It helps stoke their strategy of tension to provoke conflict and division. The UK is a lot less racist than when I was growing up that's for sure and less racist than many other EU nations in my experience.
It is a complete mystery to me (apart from the fact that the general population is gullible and easily misled) that in educated, 'left of centre', progressive, internationalist circles, why the EU is widely viewed as progressive. It is not.
It is pro-war (see Russia, Syria and Ukraine for evidence)
Pro-poverty (see the CAP and trade tariffs against the world's poorest countries)
Pro neo-liberal, gangster capitalism (see the Troika's dealing with Greece and its TTIP negotiations)
and super undemocratic
All of which makes the EU institutionally racist and fascist.
The referendum was a hobson's choice but voting leave does not mean you're about jump into bed with Nigel and Boris.
Last edited by ian neal on Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
Just day after their mysterious annual meeting in Dresden, it appears The Bilderberg Group's gravest concern is Brexit. While everything from The Middle East to Donald Trump was on the agenda, the remarks this week from AXA CEO (and Chairman of The Bilderberg Group) Henri de Castries that there is an "extremely high" probability that the U.K. will vote to leave the European Union and investors will face “a true landscape of uncertainties," suggest the establishment is concerned.
As Bloomberg reports, neither the U.K. nor the EU region is prepared for negotiations that would follow a vote to leave on June 23, de Castries said at a conference in Paris...
“If they remain, the situation isn’t simple either, and this is underestimated by lots of people,” because the result will be interpreted differently by each side, he said.
De Castries, who is stepping down from France’s largest insurer at the start of September, became one of the few executives to speak out on the likelihood of a British vote to exit the EU. The Sun, Britain’s biggest-selling newspaper, backed a so-called Brexit on its front page on Tuesday. Several polls on Monday also put the “Leave” campaign ahead. The pound and European stocks plunged.
If the U.K. votes to leave the EU, any complacency in the subsequent negotiations could encourage some other countries to seek special treatment within the political bloc, threatening "to accelerate the unraveling of Europe," de Castries said.
Think that this is a "tempest in a teapot"? Think again. If the chairman of The Bilderberg Group is worried, then that means all of these entitites are 'worried' and preparing... _________________ --
'Suppression of truth, human spirit and the holy chord of justice never works long-term. Something the suppressors never get.' David Southwell
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com http://aanirfan.blogspot.com
Martin Van Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Martin Van Creveld: I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Futxf1U2f8 _________________ --
'Suppression of truth, human spirit and the holy chord of justice never works long-term. Something the suppressors never get.' David Southwell
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com http://aanirfan.blogspot.com
Martin Van Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Martin Van Creveld: I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing."
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Brexit-caused losses of the world’s 400 richest people amounted to an eye- watering $USD127.4 billion in a single day, Bloomberg estimates. Rich Britons have lost a “mere” $5.5 billion, according to reports.
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Stock markets from Tokyo to London collapsed on Friday as Britons voted to leave the European Union and David Cameron announced plans to resign as prime minister. The British pound suffered its...
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The Brexit vote has sent European markets into the steepest decline since 2008. The pound plummeted to a record low, not seen since Margaret Thatcher was prime minister some 30 years ago.
The Bloomberg Billionaires Index says billionaires lost 3.2 percent of their total net worth, now estimated at $3.9 trillion.
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The worst losses among European billionaires were suffered by Amancio Ortega, Europe’s richest person, who hemorrhaged $6 billion. Many other mega rich individuals took a massive hit, including Bill Gates and Amazon magnate Jeff Bezos, who lost over $1 billion each.
Britain’s wealthiest person Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor dropped more than $1 billion. However, for the UK’s wealthiest Brexit was surprisingly less devastating than for others in the billionaire class. Altogether, Britain’s 15 richest people lost “only” $5.5 billion.
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British co-founder of stockbroker Hargreaves Lansdown, Peter Hargreaves, lost the most, seeing his fortune shrink by 19 percent to US$2.9 billion.
In a major irony, Hargreaves was the largest donor to the Leave campaign, donating £3.2 million, according to the UK's Electoral Commission.
Hargreaves has shown no regret, and says he is ready to work with the British government to shape the nation’s economic future once the country stops being an EU member state.
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“I have enormous experience of business, enormous experience of negotiation, enormous experience of economics, and I'm one of Britain's most successful businessmen,” Hargreaves said. “If they don't involve me, they're crazy.”
Richard Branson, a vocal advocate of the UK staying with the EU, has made peace with the decision of the majority, stressing that the British people’s “determination, resolve and sense of what is right” would be necessary “over the testing months and years to come.”
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The richest person in South Africa, Christo Wiese, who has vast investments in the UK economy, believes the current crisis doesn’t mean the end of the EU.
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 18335 Location: St. Pauls, Bristol, England
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:28 am Post subject:
I am not just pro-EU, I am an euro-federalist. But we have a referendum result, and it is not being respected. Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty should, in respect to the verdict of the people, be invoked in weeks not months. For the Conservative Party to view its leadership election as taking priority disrespects both the British people and the rest of the EU, who are kept in uncertainty.
There is a strong strand of belief among the political class that Boris Johnson has no intention of taking the UK out of the EU. His aim was to see off Cameron and install himself in No. 10, after which he will discover that leaving the EU is proving far too dangerous and call for a second referendum. I suspect that this credits Johnson with a Machiavellian genius he is far from possessing, though as a prediction of future events it is in with a chance. (Personally I am hoping for Theresa May, the reaction to whose elevation will speed up Scottish Independence).
The United Kingdom’s democracy is far from perfect. The massive anachronism of the House of Lords, the vast executive powers based on Crown prerogative, the blatant unfairness of the first past the post system, the lack of a pluralist media… I could go on and on. Referenda are a rare bolt-on to what is already a mess.
The demonstrable public contempt of the public for the political class has been mirrored these last few days by the demonstrable contempt of the political class for the public. This has been obvious in the response to the Brexit vote, and in the Labour parliamentary party’s move against Corbyn. Both are evidence that the political class feel that they should not be directed by a wider public. Alastair Campbell in discussing Brexit effectively dismissed the public as stupid and gullible.
I am not just pro-EU, I am an euro-federalist. But we have a referendum result, and it is not being respected. Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty should, in respect to the verdict of the people, be invoked in weeks not months. For the Conservative Party to view its leadership election as taking priority disrespects both the British people and the rest of the EU, who are kept in uncertainty.
The voters should be obeyed with facility. When there is a general election, the incumbent PM moves out in the early hours of the morning. There is no sign of haste to obey the public here. It is not a good attitude.
However, opinion can change. The truth is that by the time leaving the EU becomes effective in a bit over two years, over 1 million of the electorate will have died and over 800,000 new people will have come on to the electoral roll. If the margin of victory had been 5 or 6 million that would not have been relevant. But as it is the churnaround will be greater than the majority. That is not perhaps in itself sufficient argunent for a second referendum, but if the opinion polls show firm evidence of a switch in public opinion during the next 24 months, it could become important.
The question of when a second referendum on a subject might be held is a fraught one. But however the idea of further public ballots might be described, it is not undemocratic. Which leads me on to Indyref2 in Scotland. The idea is being mooted that Nicola Sturgeon may be able to secure some deal for Scotland with the EU, whereby Scotland is still part of the UK outside the EU but retains its EU privileges.
I have been puzzling over this one. I have a strong background in the subject, having been for four years First Secretary (Political and Economic) in the British Embassy in Warsaw with the specific responsibility for Poland’s EU accession. I cannot for the life of me think of any really substantive such arrangements that could work without Scottish Independence. If Scotland remains in the Union and the UK leaves the EU, there is nothing Scotland can gain by way of special relationship which is other than window dressing.
Besides which, even if a unique bargain could be struck and some special status obtained, it is indisputable that this would still constitute a “material change”. In respect for the mandate on which the SNP were very specifically elected, if the UK leaves the EU, that must still trigger a referendum on full independence.
Indyref2 must now be a given.
The Labour crisis is a result of that party’s lack of internal democracy. In the SNP, every MP and MSP must seek reselection as the candidate for every election. Sitting MSPs and MPS can be and are regularly deposed by party members without fuss.
In the Labour Party, the system has been designed to put in MPs for life. Members have no right to challenge them. An extraordinary number of the right wing MPs were parachuted in from HQ and have no connection whatsoever to the northern constituencies they represent. It is fascinating that two thirds of the Shadow Cabinet members who resigned yesterday ostensibly over Corbyn’s insufficient EU enthusiasm, represent constituencies which voted for Brexit. This might call into some doubt their own campaigning effectiveness.
Everybody knows that the Labour parliamentary party is well to the right of both the membership and the trade unions, and has been itching to get rid of Corbyn from day one. For those who have constantly stabbed him in the back for a year to criticise his effectiveness in fighting their opponents is ridiculous.
For England and Wales, Corbyn represents the only challenge to the neo-liberal values of the political class, which has succeeded in capturing an important institution. Corbyn represents a chance that democracy may have meaning, in the sense of actually presenting alternative views and policies to the electorate. The establishment is now in the end game of removing this “threat” to ensure that the next general election again just gives the English and Welsh a choice of which colour of Tory you want.
Those who see the Labour Party as just a career path (90% of its MPs and employees) really don’t care what it stands for as long as it gets into power. Power means money. Ask Tony Blair.
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: EU referendum spin
Ian Neal
I think many leave voters did vote leave because of their rejection of the elite and its vision of an EU dictatorship. I did. So did the likes of George Galloway and many others opposed to the elite.
This is a position for people who want to delude themselves.
If it was an anti-elite vote, why did we not hear Greece mentioned once during the campaign? In fact, in media programmes, Lexit simply was not an issue for the vast majority of Leave voters. I'd say that I did not hear anyone non-political person argue that the EU or ECB could push greedy capitalist policies on us.
I believe if you asked Leave voters they would talk about dictatorship and wanting their country back because the EU is foistering immigration from Eastern Europe on us. Immigration (but not whites from France, Germany, Australia, N. America) was the key issue. For many, it is today spilling over to black immigrants.
The majority of black people in the UK or Eastern Europeans believe that xenophobia and racism is on the rise. From India to the US, people abroad are saying 'xenophobia'. But perhaps, their views don't matter!
After a campaign scarred by bigotry, it’s become OK to be racist in Britain
Aditya Chakrabortty
And as for eastern Europeans and Muslims, while researching this article, a university lecturer told me quite casually: “I’m now scared to tell a taxi driver that I’m Polish.” At Tell Mama, the organisation that monitors hate crimes against Muslims, director Fiyaz Mughal recounted how the “chatter” from small violent far-right extremist groups had risen and risen during the campaign.
“I’m not racist. I don’t want to offend you,” a cafe worker kept telling me, plainly not caring whether she did. I tried it again in Dorset the weekend before the ballot, with a couple clutching Vote Leave signs. The woman detailed her daughter’s difficulty in getting housing in London, the groping on public transport, a cooking fire in the flat below with five eastern European men. She shook with anger. “I just want my country back.”
I abhor racism and I don't trivialise it. Many people (including some remainers) are concerned over immigration and wish to see UK regain control over immigration policy. This is not a racist position. But it suits the elite to talk up and associate leavers with xenophobia, 'populist' politics, little islander/englander, insular mentality and I just don't buy it. I don't buy that that description fits 52% of the UK population.
The England football team has a hooligan problem. This is undeniable. But that is not the same as saying all English fans are hooligans. Do you see the comparison?
Your comment also assumes that it is possible to understand the reasons why people voted on the basis of what has been presented in the MSM. So you are right the LEXIT case (the arguments for exit from a 'left-wing' perspective ... anti-war, anti neo-liberal, gangster capitalism, anti-NWO) got naff all coverage in MSM. I didn't see much coverage on the EU's role in perpetuating the 9/11 myth in MSM either. No surprise there but none of this tells us why people voted the way they voted.
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:59 am Post subject:
Ian
Quote:
immigration and wish to see UK regain control over immigration policy.
Yes. They wanted to control immigration to stop poor whites and blacks coming into the country.
What's the correlation between living and working with migrants and black people and experiencing being displaced in work, depressed wages and voting Leave? None. Thurrock - few migrants, votes Leave and UKIP. Sunderland - few migrants, votes Leave. Lambeth - full of migrants, votes Remain.
Ian,
Yes, the EU is an elite plot but why were so many Tories against it? Leave was supported by Rupert Murdoch, the Express, Daily Telegraph. Have the owners of these papers become tribunes of progressive politics and the people? The reality is the Tories see it as too social democratic and insifficiently Anglo-American. Part of the City of London didn't want its banking regulations.
if you have evidence that a big proportion of the Leave voters were motivated by progressive democracy, I'd like to see it. Personally, I think you'll find more among the Remain voters.
As I say above there is no evidence (that I know of) on the reasons why people voted one way or the other. Anti-immigrant bigotry will be the reason some people voted leave but what percentage of leave voters are racists is anyone's guess. Whatever the percentage it is too many but you will never convince me if you are a non racist you should have voted remain because to vote leave is the equivalent of joining the KKK
PLus in my opinion there are also voices amongst pro-remain MPs and MSM talking up the issue in order to (1) promote remain/EU as some non-racist Utopia and (2) demonise leave. I notice so-called anti-racist progressives in the remain camp have naff all to say about the EU endorsing a bunch of Ukraine fascists.
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:45 pm Post subject: No progressive move
I've given what I think is the best explanation. Voters overestimate the strength of the UK economy. They are told its the 5th biggest. They think immigrants are unfairly taking Brit's money, the EU facilitates this and they want it to stop: they want their country back. Kicking poor people from Eastern Europe becomes a victory for the working-class.
Leave is backed by Conrad Black, Rupert Murdoch, the Express, The Telegraph, Marine Le Pen, Geert Wilders and I'm supposed to think this is a democratic, pro-working-class progressive movement.
If Portugal, Greece, Spain and Italy were also leaving and citing the EU as a neo-liberal project then that would be different. From what I can see, the UK leaving does nothing to overturn neo-liberalism. Leave has reinforced the right in UK politics and if we don't engage in a massive campaign, we'll get TTIP shoved down our throats.
It is all more subtle/complex than that in my eyes. Voters (on either side) cannot ALL be characterised and summed up in a single sentence. I acknowledge that there are racists amongst leave voters (and a few in the remain camp too no doubt). I acknowledge there are unsavory actors on the leave side. I could write a similar list of reactionary a**eholes on the remain side too: blair, mandleson, cameron, obama, etc, etc...
The leavers = racists meme reminds of the MSM's portrayal of the 9/11 truth movement as a crazy and/or anti-semitic cult. THEY say this and THEY say that as if we all think and say the same.
I completely agree a number of these attacks will be false if not most of them. Because the establishment and mainstream media didn't get their way they will do all they can to make it look like leavers are racist, bigots and all these other labels the left sided people use when they lose an argument.
I voted leave and would a second time as did many people I know, I don't care who knows it I'm proud of how I voted but hold nothing against anybody who voted differently.
What I don't understand is why the media are trying to make this all about immigration this was about the 4th reason to me and most people I have spoken with.
Why did I want to leave
1. Sovereignty, unelected people setting our laws, tell me what light bulbs to use what vacuum cleaner I can by what shape my fruit & vegetables should be etc etc
2. Trade, I don't believe the EU is good for trade sure we export about 40% of our exports there but this is getting less every year. Yes there are 500 million people but what about the other 7 billion in the rest of the world? The EU blocks trade for years India has wanted a trade agreement as have the south American block both blocked. So what if we don't get an agreement we revert to WTO rules and tariffs are applied however this goes both ways and due to the fact the EU send twice what we send to them who will it hurt most? 1 in 5 cars built in Germany come to the UK.
3. The money we send, sure we get half back but are told what we must do with and given a sign saying funded by the EU. It's not funded by them it's our money to start with! On top of that if our economy does well we get fined and have to pay more, why should we be propping up weak economies while cutting our services and people are using bloody food banks.
4. The EU has assist stripped the UK, EU grant & loans have moved many companies out of the UK thousands of jobs lost, have this made the other countries better or just made production cheaper? Well I haven't seen proof of any countries standard of living rising so it must be cheaper production so why is my van not cheaper to buy, my chocolate cheaper after all it now costs less to make these things all of which goes to the elites and there banker mates.
Getting to immigration not once has anybody said stop all immigration what we need is control. How can we plan hospitals, schools and other services if we have no control? I now have a 3 week wait to see a GP!
Anybody should be able to come to Britain as long as they have skills we need, have a job and can support themselves without top up benefits or the need of social housing that the people here already need, and most of all fit in and abide by uk laws. It should also not make a difference where they are from why should somebody from France be allowed and not somebody more suitable from India be banned.
The press can stir all the nonsense they like and throw all the labels they like I don't care I've been called a lot worse lol but this needs to stop before it causes something they can't take back.
We are out that is the end of it, I'm glad but now it's time to stop the silly nonsense and work on making the best of it together. _________________ --
'Suppression of truth, human spirit and the holy chord of justice never works long-term. Something the suppressors never get.' David Southwell
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com http://aanirfan.blogspot.com
Martin Van Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Martin Van Creveld: I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing."
What I take as a positive from this is how utterly unacceptable racism is to the vast majority of British people today amongst both remain and leavers. We have a way to go still and should never be complacent but we have moved so far from the days when the Black and White minsterals and Mind your language were considered normal family viewing a mere 30-40 years ago.
You are right to be concerned with any rise is racist incidents but it is wrong to repeat lazy stereotypes that promote leave = racist. This is their divide and rule game. The powers that be (the same powers that gave us and continues to give us slavery, empire and endless racist wars) love to divide us, to polarise opinions, to ratchet up the tension and violence because we are so much easier to control when we are divided and full of hate. We need to promote tolerance and acceptance across these divides and this includes between leavers and remainers. To understand that good reasons could be found to vote either way.
It’s Time for the Elites to Rise Up Against the Ignorant Masses
The Brexit has laid bare the political schism of our time. It’s not about the left vs. the right; it’s about the sane vs. the mindlessly angry.
BY JAMES TRAUBJUNE 28, 2016
It’s Time for the Elites to Rise Up Against the Ignorant Masses
I was born in 1954, and until now I would have said that the late 1960s was the greatest period of political convulsion I have lived through. Yet for all that the Vietnam War and the civil rights struggle changed American culture and reshaped political parties, in retrospect those wild storms look like the normal oscillations of a relatively stable political system. The present moment is different. Today’s citizen revolt — in the United States, Britain, and Europe — may upend politics as nothing else has in my lifetime.
In the late 1960s, elites were in disarray, as they are now — but back then they were fleeing from kids rebelling against their parents’ world; now the elites are fleeing from the parents.In the late 1960s, elites were in disarray, as they are now — but back then they were fleeing from kids rebelling against their parents’ world; now the elites are fleeing from the parents. Extremism has gone mainstream. One of the most brazen features of the Brexit vote was the utter repudiation of the bankers and economists and Western heads of state who warned voters against the dangers of a split with the European Union. British Prime Minister David Cameron thought that voters would defer to the near-universal opinion of experts; that only shows how utterly he misjudged his own people.
Obama's Noble Lie
History will judge the Obama administration's style in advancing the nuclear deal to be as checkered as the deal itself.
Promoted By
Both the Conservative and the Labour parties in Britain are now in crisis. The British have had their day of reckoning; the American one looms. If Donald Trump loses, and loses badly (forgive me my reckless optimism, but I believe he will) the Republican Party may endure a historic split between its know-nothing base and its K Street/Chamber of Commerce leadership class. The Socialist government of France may face a similar fiasco in national elections next spring: Polls indicate that President François Hollande would not even make it to the final round of voting. Right-wing parties all over Europe are clamoring for an exit vote of their own.
Yes, it’s possible that all the political pieces will fly up into the air and settle down more or less where they were before, but the Brexit vote shows that shocking change isn’t very shocking anymore. Where, then, could those pieces end up? Europe is already pointing in one direction. In much of Europe, far-right nativist parties lead in the polls. So far, none has mustered a majority, though last month Norbert Hofer, the leader of Austria’s far-right Freedom Party, which traffics in Nazi symbolism, came within a hair of winning election as president. Mainstream parties of the left and right may increasingly combine forces to keep out the nationalists. This has already happened in Sweden, where a right-of-center party serves as the minority partner to the left-of-center government. If the Socialists in France do in fact lose the first round, they will almost certainly support the conservative Republicans against the far-right National Front.
Perhaps these informal coalitions can survive until the fever breaks. But the imperative of cohabitation could also lead to genuine realignment. That is, chunks of parties from the left and right of center could break away to form a different kind of center, defending pragmatism, meliorism, technical knowledge, and effective governance against the ideological forces gathering on both sides. It’s not hard to imagine the Republican Party in the United States — and perhaps the British Conservatives should Brexit go terribly wrong — losing control of the angry, nationalist rank and file and reconstituting themselves as the kind of Main Street, pro-business parties they were a generation ago, before their ideological zeal led them into a blind alley. That may be their only alternative to irrelevance.
The issue, at bottom, is globalization. Brexit, Trump, the National Front, and so on show that political elites have misjudged the depth of the anger at global forces and thus the demand that someone, somehow, restore the status quo ante. It may seem strange that the reaction has come today rather than immediately after the economic crisis of 2008, but the ebbing of the crisis has led to a new sense of stagnation. With prospects of flat growth in Europe and minimal income growth in the United States, voters are rebelling against their dismal long-term prospects. And globalization means culture as well as economics: Older people whose familiar world is vanishing beneath a welter of foreign tongues and multicultural celebrations are waving their fists at cosmopolitan elites. I was recently in Poland, where a far-right party appealing to nationalism and tradition has gained power despite years of undeniable prosperity under a centrist regime. Supporters use the same words again and again to explain their vote: “values and tradition.” They voted for Polishness against the modernity of Western Europe.
Perhaps politics will realign itself around the axis of globalization, with the fist-shakers on one side and the pragmatists on the other. The nationalists would win the loyalty of working-class and middle-class whites who see themselves as the defenders of sovereignty. The reformed center would include the beneficiaries of globalization and the poor and non-white and marginal citizens who recognize that the celebration of national identity excludes them.
Of course, mainstream parties of both the left and the right are trying to reach the angry nationalists. Sometimes this takes the form of gross truckling, as when Nicolas Sarkozy, who is seeking to regain France’s presidency, denounces the “tyranny of minorities” and invokes the “forever France” of an all-white past. From the left, Hillary Clinton has jettisoned her free-trade past to appeal to union members and others who want to protect national borders against the global market. But left and right disagree so deeply about how best to cushion the effects of globalization, and how to deal with the vast influx of refugees and migrants, that even the threat of extremism may not be enough to bring them to make common cause.
The schism we see opening before us is not just about policies, but about reality.The schism we see opening before us is not just about policies, but about reality. The Brexit forces won because cynical leaders were prepared to cater to voters’ paranoia, lying to them about the dangers of immigration and the costs of membership in the EU. Some of those leaders have already begun to admit that they were lying. Donald Trump has, of course, set a new standard for disingenuousness and catering to voters’ fears, whether over immigration or foreign trade or anything else he can think of. The Republican Party, already rife with science-deniers and economic reality-deniers, has thrown itself into the embrace of a man who fabricates realities that ignorant people like to inhabit.
9:15 AM - 29 Jun 2016
Top US diplomat & Skull & Bones member John Kerry says Brexit may not happen.
US Secretary of State John Kerry said that Britain's vote to leave the European Union might never be implemented and that London is in no hurry to go. Speaking one day after talks with Prime Minister... _________________ --
'Suppression of truth, human spirit and the holy chord of justice never works long-term. Something the suppressors never get.' David Southwell
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com http://aanirfan.blogspot.com
Martin Van Creveld: Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother."
Martin Van Creveld: I'll quote Henry Kissinger: "In campaigns like this the antiterror forces lose, because they don't win, and the rebels win by not losing."
Joined: 27 Jun 2016 Posts: 2 Location: Kilburn, London
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:11 pm Post subject:
I am a leave voter, Im currently studying at 46 and I am an embedded social/political artist in NW London.
I knew I was voting out some time ago, I slightly toyed with the idea of remain. Waying up the financial help to students from overseas and EU money that comes into the Uk as opposed to what goes out. On the whole, I decided to listen to the trade unions, the arguments about the wave of fascists rise across Europe and selling off and chopping up off our services, land, the cost of housing and the selling off social housing.. Finally, the makeup of the EU and the fact that the appointed can dictate and overide any of its members laws. That to me does not scream democracy.
I have since friday had my sis in law insinuate that I am a racist, xenophobe, Britain has always been racist anyway attidue at me.... I was merely replying that a few Leave voters I knew who work in the nearby market, one is Black british and one is Arab, and another Kurdish... apparently I shouldn't mention colour to her, whilst she addresses everyone who's leave as racist... when I pointed out her own statement was a kind of oxymoron she became very angry.
Now, yes I am English, my fella is Black British, born in St Lucia, and my sis in law is too but born here. He is also a Leave voter. He has a zero hours contract with an agency that serve a west london council and he drives disabled kids to school and provides transport for community cnetres too, he is a PSV (bus) driver, at weekends he often works for London Transport as a Rail replacement driver... Now he has said to me, most of his colleagues at both jobs are Leave voters, whether black, white or asian or arab, they are 90% leave voters. It isnt possible for it to be a racist vote.
Its more of a workers vote and like Jeremy Corbyn has said, he understands why the disenfranchised communities voted out, unlike Sky news or the BBC which would rather use words akin to 'Poorer less educated people from the working class areas voted out' (not a direct quote) as that is what I have been hearing. _________________ Create and engage
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:20 pm Post subject: Delusional Leave vote
Quote:
Now, yes I am English, my fella is Black British, born in St Lucia, and my sis in law is too but born here. He is also a Leave voter. He has a zero hours contract with an agency....
Can we please stop being delusional? Can we please tell some truth? You may have voted because of hostility to neo-liberalism and what happened to Greece but if you think that's why most Leavers voted, you're delusional.
To suggest that the main reason people voted Leave was some kind of revolt against the rich and powerful is total baloney. The idea that the vote was not about immigration is baloney. People are not angry with exploitative employers, they are angry with migrants and say so repeatedliy. But guess what? They don't say that about white US migrants. And guess what? In 2009 (when I did the research), the biggest group of long stay migrants was who? Returning Brits. But does The Sun tell their readers that?
Do you really think that Iain Duncan Smith, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage wants some kind of working-class revolution against the rich? Really?
What was the typical reaction to seeing Syrians and other refugees coming to Europe? Were the Leave voters saying 'we must help them' or 'keep them the f*** out of our country! And, 'Merkel is mad for taking on those Muslims'. But were it not for Middle Eastern refugees, we'd still be in the EU.
Most black people voted Remain. That is one of the main reason London was Remain. There are Sun-reading black people who feel that Eastern Europeans were taking their job but they would have no evidence to support this. They don't know what they are talking about.
I've been unemployed since summer 2014. I am professionally trained, well-educated, experienced and black. I've already taken two employers to court for racial discrimination in recruitment and will do so again. Why? Because I face race discrimination. A higher proportion of black people than whites are in low wages, are in temporary and insecure jobs and are in zero hour contracts. Do you know why? They are black!
Name one law passed by the Council of Minister that has had a negative impact on the lives of the millions in the UK? If you can do you really think that Leavers would be able to? They are clueless about who makes decisions in the EU and before the referendum, they weren't that bothered. Do you really think they took an interest in the outcome of Council of Ministers meetings? No! They were clueless about them.
The idea that 3 million Eastern Europeans has depressed the wages and displaced the jobs of 17- plus million Leave voters, including all the pensioners who voted Leave, is utter garbage. The reality is as the proportion of older people grows, the UK well need more migrants!
If you have evidence that Eastern European migration is depressing wages, please let see it.
The official Remain and Leave campaigns and the right wing media ramped up racism against migrants and dragged the debate to the right.
But the majority of working class people are not racists—including working class people who voted Leave in large numbers.
Many who supported Remain, including left wingers and liberals, argue the result was fuelled by racism over immigration.
But the idea that Leave was a racist vote by the “white working class” doesn’t add up.
The three towns outside of London where the “White British” population is not a majority produced Leave votes.
So in Luton 45 percent of the population is “White British”—it voted Leave by 56.5 percent on a 66.2 percent turnout.
Similarly in Slough 34.52 percent of the population is “White British”—people there also voted Leave by 54 percent on a 62.1 percent turnout.
Meanwhile in Leicester 45 percent of the population is “White British” and 48.9 percent voted for Leave on a 65 percent turnout.
People in London backed Remain more strongly, but Leave still had strong support among many working class people in the capital.
Multicultural
In Newham people voted Leave by 47 percent on a 59.2 percent turnout. The east London borough is one of the poorest and most multicultural in London, with only 17 percent of the population being “White British”.
That’s not to deny that racism is a real problem or that immigration was an important issue for many people, particularly Leave supporters.
But a rightward shift is not inevitable and polling shows a contradictory picture.
For instance, a poll by Lord Ashcroft showed that 81 percent of people who thought multiculturalism was a “force for ill” voted Leave. But only 14 percent of people who voted Leave thought multiculturalism was a force for ill.
Many working class people voted Leave to give the establishment a kicking, while many also accept some reactionary ideas around immigration. That’s partly because there wasn’t anyone high profile putting an anti-racist argument on immigration to them.
Immigration
One Ipsos Mori poll found that, when asked in the abstract, 42 percent of people said immigration had a negative impact on Britain.
But some 51 percent of the total, and 47 percent of Remain supporters, said immigration had no impact on them personally.
Those saying immigration had no impact on them personally was even higher among Leave supporters at 52 percent.
This resilience is significant considering the racist assault from the right wing media—and it shows racist ideas are not fixed.
But challenging them means uniting working class people against the Tories and racist scapegoating—not abandoning large numbers of workers to the racists.
‘What happens now depends on whether we fight back together’
Many racists will feel more confident because of the Leave vote. The racist Ukip party’s leader Nigel Farage, and those even further to the right, wrongly think that the majority of people now support them.
Farage ramps up racism
Farage ramps up racism (Pic: Michael Vadon/Flickr)
There have been reports of racist harassment in the aftermath of the result.
The Metropolitan Police said that racist graffiti was left on the Polish Social and Cultural Centre in Hammersmith, west London, last Sunday.
The Cambridge News reported that laminated cards reading “Leave the EU—no more Polish vermin” were being distributed.
Every anti-racist must stand in solidarity with migrants against such attacks.
Scared
Jacek Szymanski, a Polish worker in north London, told Socialist Worker, “Many migrants are scared, but that’s because they’re not given the full picture.
“The official Remain and Leave campaigns were racist, but I don’t think the 17 million people who voted Leave are all racists and xenophobes.”
Racism against migrants, which produced these attacks, was built through years of scapegoating by the Tories and Labour.
Labour produced a mug during the last election pledging “controls on immigration”. During the EU campaign Remain supporters, including Labour shadow cabinet members, came out against the free movement of labour.
A Remain vote would have allowed through David Cameron’s racist EU deal, which would have restricted migrants’ right to claim benefits.
Jacek Szymanski
Jacek Szymanski
As Jacek said, “His plan was for migrants not to be able to have benefits—how is that not racist?”
Now Remain-supporting Unite union general secretary Len McCluskey and leftist journalist Paul Mason have joined calls to restrict EU immigration. This is not the way to combat the right.
Interests
Adrian Williams, a British Filipino in London, told Socialist Worker, “I voted Leave because the EU is not working in the interests of people in Britain.
“The Leave vote is bigger than immigration and it’s bigger than racism.”
The EU is not a guarantor of migrants’ rights or a bulwark against racism. Adrian added, “The next president of the EU is the Slovak prime minister Robert Fico, who said he doesn’t want Muslims in his country.”
Leaving the EU doesn’t mean migrants will be deported. Adrian said, “The NHS is filled with Filipino workers who are from outside the European Union.”
Jacek said, “More attacks on our rights would have come no matter what the result—what happens now depends on whether we fight back together.” _________________ Create and engage
Areas with significant numbers of ethnic minorities tended to vote Remain, except the West Midlands. Multicultural London voted Remain, apart from Barking and Dagenham, which has a high proportion of white working-class sympathetic to the BNP. Areas with low numbers of migrants and BMEs such as Sunderland voted Leave.
It is clearly the case that the new Conservative leaders will feel they must deliver on cutting immigration numbers to satisfy Leave voters.
Quote:
Brexit was fueled by irrational xenophobia, not real economic grievances
Now some pundits are suggesting that the real lesson of Brexit is that ordinary Britons are bearing an unacceptable economic cost from immigration, and that elites should heed that lesson and think about restricting immigration to other Western countries to prevent a similar populist backlash.
There’s just one problem: This narrative isn’t actually true. Data shows that Britain wasn’t suffering harmful economic effects from too many new migrants.
What Britain was suffering from too much of, however, was xenophobia — fear and hatred of immigrants. Bigotry on the basis of national origin...
...In other words, he tested the exact argument the pro-Leave camp is making: that people who voted to leave made a rational decision based on the real economic effects they’ve suffered from the rise in immigration. If that were the case, you’d expect places that have gotten poorer in the past decade (when mass migration took off) would have been the places that voted most heavily to leave the EU.
But that’s not what Bell found. In fact, he found no correlation at all between areas where wages have fallen since 2002 and the share of votes for Leave in the referendum:
Interesting data but it can be interpreted different ways
So for example when Bell finds no correlation at all between areas where wages have fallen since 2002 and the share of votes for Leave in the referendum, this can be interpreted that Leave voters were not voting on this issue
Or the graph showing the gradual decline since the 1960s of the % of people who believe there are too many immigrants (admittedly from a shockingly high 80+% to an only slightly less depressing 50% in 2014). So whilst this shows opposition to immigration pre-dated mass EU immigration, it also shows that it is falling over time.
Then from the same links we have this ....
What were the reasons for voting Brexit? They were as follows:
“Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was ‘the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving ‘offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.’ Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice ‘about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.’”
Lord Ashcroft, “How the United Kingdom voted on Thursday… and Why,” Lord Ashcroft Polls, 24 June, 2016.
So whilst a third of leavers gave UK control of immigration as the main reason, 2/3s voted for another main reason.
I'm not denying that the rise in racist incidents since the vote is deeply concerning and I accept that this is the result of the referendum. What I am saying is the ALL Brexiteers = Racists meme is bs and being deliberately promoted by the remain campaign IMO.
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:32 pm Post subject: Immigration, immigration, immigration
Quote:
“Nearly half (49%) of leave voters said the biggest single reason for wanting to leave the EU was ‘the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’. One third (33%) said the main reason was that leaving ‘offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders.’ Just over one in eight (13%) said remaining would mean having no choice ‘about how the EU expanded its membership or its powers in the years ahead.’”
In other words, the issues were
1. immigration
2. immigration
3. Turkish immigration.
Sorry, this is still delusional. Is anyone seriously arguing that Leave voters studied decisions of the Council of Ministers and objected to any? Most Leave voters know zip about EU decision making. THe Sun told them that Commissioners made the decisions, so that's what they believed.
Do you really think that Leave voters identified Council of Ministers' decisions that the UK did not support and were upset about them? Really?
What is the number one decision of the Council of Ministers that Leave voters objected to? Exactly?
If they understood anything about the EU and its regulations, which they were generally clueless about, they would have known that the big issue is not EU membership but access to the Single Market. They're going to slowly find out the difference and when they work out they can't get rid of free movement of labour without paying extremely big bucks, they are going to get angry and feel very, very stupid.
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:42 am Post subject: Sovereignty
Ian
Quote:
No based on that poll the issues can be shortened to
sovereignty
UK control of immigration
opposition to 'ever closer union' and the European superstate
Still wondering what decision taken by the Council of Ministers best exemplifies Leavers objection to EU influence on UK sovereignty? (You can say you don't know.)
Leavers would have to do research to find out those decisions taken by the EU Council/of Ministers that the UK voted against. Because they don't know. Most couldn't be bothered to do the research.
When Cameron was negotiating changes in UK-EU powers, he was repeatedly asked what powers did he think should be transferred from the EU to the UK. He didn't seem to know. If you asked the same question of Leavers, they would be equally clueless (apart from talking about immigration and granted, some would talk about fisheries and agriculture).
Gove's decision to stand is a clear indication that Leavers didn't know what they were doing.
I would argue that the EU has a drip-drip approach of incrementally taking on more and more power and trappings of a state/federalist superstate as it has evolved from a six nation club to manage coal and steel to the EC to the EEC to the EU. At each step, many of the nation states have (and continue to be) denied a referendum. The decisions are made by parliaments not the people and when a referendum delivers the 'wrong answer', the EU has a history of pushing for a revote. I would say the following developments have seriously undermined national sovereignty of EU nations or will do in the near future
Single, currency, single economic framework and the establishment of the ECB (just look at how the troika ran roughshod over Greek popular opinion)
Plans for an EU army
EU setting up its own foreign policy and embassies (... see the EU policy on Ukraine as an example of the EU warmongering)
Engaging in secretive, undemocratic TTIP negotiations which if approved will completely undermine national sovereignty
The European Court of Justice enforces EU law and in so doing over rule national laws
Insisting our bananas are straight (joke)
All of which is compounded by the lack of power and effective structures for the EU parliament (the block system which equates to party system in the UK just doesn't work) and the unaccountable way EU commissioners and the president are selected (not elected).
As an EU supporter you may like or dislike the single market, qualified majority voting and the Lisbon Treaty. But whether you like or dislike these developments, there is no denying that they clearly undermine national sovereignty.
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: Sovereignty
insidejob wrote:
When Cameron was negotiating changes in UK-EU powers, he was repeatedly asked what powers did he think should be transferred from the EU to the UK. He didn't seem to know.
May be the reason 'he didn't know' is because he didn't really want EU reform and it was all about managing the threat of UKIP and the Tory b****** (as major famously called them. Because the UK is out of the Euro, he had no reason to make the Euro an issue even though it is the biggest thing undermining national sovereignty. Plus Cameron has no problem with the EU's war mongering (because he's one himself) or with the EU negotiating TTIP in private and promoting corporate gangsterism (cos that's what the tories want and do). So unlike me, he didn't really want to reform the EU.
If you want to know what changes I would make, they are very similar to the changes Corbyn called for (see link). The difference is JC needed to keep to Labour party policy and keep a bunch of blairite turncoats on side (if only temporarily). Therefore he argued it was best to stay in the EU and lobby for EU reform, whereas I have zero faith that the EU is capable of these type of reforms.
The other obvious point is that both sides were broad campaigns with unlikely alliances on both sides: blair, cameron and corbyn for remain; farage, johnson, frank field and george galloway for leave. So is it any wonder both sides failed to communicate or agree to a unified platform and hence why cameron and johnson fudged things and kept to sound bites and slogans in order to appeal to as many people as possible
Joined: 14 Dec 2005 Posts: 475 Location: North London
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: EU and Brexit
Ian,
Quote:
If you want to know what changes I would make, they are very similar to the changes Corbyn called for (see link). The difference is JC needed to keep to Labour party policy and keep a bunch of blairite turncoats on side (if only temporarily). Therefore he argued it was best to stay in the EU and lobby for EU reform, whereas I have zero faith that the EU is capable of these type of reforms.
Change will come when the people of Europe see common cause with the people of Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy. Currently, we have the right-wing loony, Michael Gove, who, other than Nigel Farage, is the most likely politician to give the Leavers what they asked for.
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