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Justin
9/11 Truth Organiser
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 500
Location: Cumbria / Yorkshire Dales
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 Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: Mustn't be rude to Jay Ref............ |
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| Quote: | Justin,
If you look very carefully you will see that I started this thread as a way to get a few simple "why" questions answered. (BTW all these questions actually are directly related to the 9/11 CT)
If you feel that you have questions to be addressed then by all means start your own thread instead of attempting to derail mine. It's rude, and I know you don't want to be rude... |
Okay Jay Ref, new thread started so please now ANSWER my questions. Thank you.
| Quote: | Justin wrote:
Well, Jay Ref, we agree on something at last I'm pleased to say. But it is this mindset that is currently having an extremely unhealthy influence on American policy in the Middle East - and it is this neocon zionist (both Christian and Jewish) mindset that was behind PNAC. When you look at the major players in the American administration both before and after 9/11, they are nearly all active or benign supporters of neocon zionists - doesn't that worry you as an American? The body bags coming back from Iraq to America will be as to nothing compared to a conflict with Iran. What are you doing, as a loyal American, about preventing this hideous warmongering mindset from prevailing? We are doing our bit to wake the British public up about the hundreds of inconsistencies there are with the official 9/11 story and how false flag operations can be used effectively to carry out hidden agendas by powerful minorities. Now you are saying we are wrong in all of this as you believe the official story of 9/11 is true - everyone of the hundreds of inconsistencies and incredible coincidences are easily explained. Am I correct in assuming this? If I am correct and you trust your President, his cabinet, his wealthy backers and his 'spiritual' advisors, this means you, as a patriotic American support what is going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the War on Terror. Correct? Well, in which case, you are not exactly helping to find a cure to stop humanity being sucked into the Armageddon that these nutters and supporters of your President are so looking forward to.
Quote by Jay Ref::
| Quote: | People get sucked into this nonsense...enough people get sucked in and it goes from cult to "movement"...politicians can't afford to be seen as against the "movement" if it has attracted enough voters....once you get to really massive numbers of the deluded the movement becomes a mainstream "religion".
I don't doubt that humanity will eventually kill itself off...and I don't doubt that it'll meet some idiot's idea of prophecy...religion will be the death of humanity unless we can find a cure. |
I guess what I'm saying is....if America is made up of people like you then God help us!!!! |
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Justin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 500
Location: Cumbria / Yorkshire Dales
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm waiting Jay Ref.......................................
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin wrote: | Jay Ref wrote:
| Quote: |
Justin wrote:
Well, Jay Ref, we agree on something at last I'm pleased to say. But it is this mindset that is currently having an extremely unhealthy influence on American policy in the Middle East - and it is this neocon zionist (both Christian and Jewish) mindset that was behind PNAC. When you look at the major players in the American administration both before and after 9/11, they are nearly all active or benign supporters of neocon zionists - doesn't that worry you as an American? The body bags coming back from Iraq to America will be as to nothing compared to a conflict with Iran. What are you doing, as a loyal American, about preventing this hideous warmongering mindset from prevailing? We are doing our bit to wake the British public up about the hundreds of inconsistencies there are with the official 9/11 story and how false flag operations can be used effectively to carry out hidden agendas by powerful minorities. Now you are saying we are wrong in all of this as you believe the official story of 9/11 is true - everyone of the hundreds of inconsistencies and incredible coincidences are easily explained. Am I correct in assuming this? If I am correct and you trust your President, his cabinet, his wealthy backers and his 'spiritual' advisors, this means you, as a patriotic American support what is going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the War on Terror. Correct? Well, in which case, you are not exactly helping to find a cure to stop humanity being sucked into the Armageddon that these nutters and supporters of your President are so looking forward to.
Quote:
People get sucked into this nonsense...enough people get sucked in and it goes from cult to "movement"...politicians can't afford to be seen as against the "movement" if it has attracted enough voters....once you get to really massive numbers of the deluded the movement becomes a mainstream "religion".
I don't doubt that humanity will eventually kill itself off...and I don't doubt that it'll meet some idiot's idea of prophecy...religion will be the death of humanity unless we can find a cure.
I guess what I'm saying is....if America is made up of people like you then God help us!!!!
So...because politicians pander to religious idiots it makes the CT true? what kind of twisted logic is that? If you think the US or Britain (which BTW has a system of government which balances power between Judicial, Legislative, and Executive) is somehow more overrun with religious nuts than say Iran is???
You do know that the Robertsons and Hagees of Iran actually wield all of the power??? You know that right? And yet to your warped mind somehow the US, Britain, and Israel are the axis of evil?
This is why the rest of us non-troothers think you guys are nucking futs.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
Jay Ref, if you look very carefully at what I have written here, you will see some questions I have asked. Come on old boy, why don't you even attempt to answer them? |
Q: When you look at the major players in the American administration both before and after 9/11, they are nearly all active or benign supporters of neocon zionists - doesn't that worry you as an American?
A: Loaded question...it presupposes that I agree with the premise. I don't. The question is therefore meaningless.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------
Q: What are you doing, as a loyal American, about preventing this hideous warmongering mindset from prevailing?
A: Loaded question...it presupposes that I agree that "hideous warmongering" is going on and that I should be doing something about it.
I don't agree. The question is therefore nonsense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------
Statement: Now you are saying we are wrong in all of this as you believe the official story of 9/11 is true - everyone of the hundreds of inconsistencies and incredible coincidences are easily explained. Am I correct in assuming this?
Q: Am I correct in assuming this?
A: The first part of your statement is true...the second part is again loaded. Since I have not seen any "hundreds of inconsistencies and incredible coincidences" the second part of your statement becomes meaningless again. So you are half correct. You've made a statement of half-truth. Congratulations as this is the closest I've seen you get to reality. Perhaps we should call it the 9/11 Half Truth Movement...you know...in the interests of accuracy?? Hey, I'm just asking questions....
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------
Q: If I am correct and you trust your President, his cabinet, his wealthy backers and his 'spiritual' advisors, this means you, as a patriotic American support what is going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the War on Terror. Correct?
A: A loaded question full of half-truth! How creative! You've just made a strawman...whup up on him all you like but he's not me. I never once said I trusted all those people although I do support the fledgling democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq. I admit, those blue fingered people voting freely for the first time in their lives and turning out in massive numbers even when threatened with death and dismemberment made me realise just how important our basic freedoms are.
All else in your question was just more nonsense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------
Statement: Well, in which case, you are not exactly helping to find a cure to stop humanity being sucked into the Armageddon that these nutters and supporters of your President are so looking forward to.
A: That's a statement of your opinion and you are welcome to it. In my opinion Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the tyranical governments of Iran, North Korea, and Syria are the actual danger. Our open government with seperations of church/state...and seperations of power...as well as built in protections of basic freedoms and respect for human rights is far less dangerous than governments run by Mullahs, or strongmen, or terrorists. Free societies allow dissent, even celebrate dissent. The governments you give a free pass to quash dissent and jail or murder dissenters. Is that really an improvement over the "free world"?? If so, why?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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gypsum
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Loaded question...
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That really is your answer to most things, isn't it? Are you trying to be funny? Or is that a loaded question too? |
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Jay Ref
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Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| gypsum wrote: | | Quote: | Loaded question...
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That really is your answer to most things, isn't it? Are you trying to be funny? Or is that a loaded question too? |
Please google "logical fallacies" and educate yourself.
Logic is the tool for discerning truth.
Illogic is not good for anything useful at all.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Jay Ref
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Well Justin,
You gonna come back...
or did those answers take care of your issues?
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Serge
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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JR, what does sand taste like?
Sorry, but it strikes me that anyone who cannot answer any question without having to retort to nonsensical ridicule of questions put forth, has their head buried so deep in sand, there is no hope of ever digging free whilst under the delusion of 'politicians speak only the truth'.
Your responses are typically 'See no Evil, hear no Evil, speak no Evil' when it comes to US Gov. Whenever anyone dares to take on any arena of US authority, the Americans clam up and go quiet. I have even be told you cannot win against any US authority if complaints are made about them. Why do they think and say that? yet they are easy to defeat.
Why? what are you afraid of? 
And why is it your replies appear to be a common element of US style defensive ridicule?.
Your style of answering questions by avoidance is exactly the same as 25 others I debate the same issues as you are avoiding to answer. I know what they call this style of avoidance. Its called 'brainwashed'.
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | Our open government with seperations of church/state...and seperations of power...as well as built in protections of basic freedoms and respect for human rights
-z |
Wow...
You've really been keeping up with things havent you?
You do realise that most 'lurkers' who visit here, those who are undecided on 911, will read that madness and judge everything else you say as equally ignorant of basic facts.
Keep it up. You're doing us all a favour. Next you'll be telling us that Abu Grahib was an "isolated incident", and Sadam had WMD's.
Let me guess...Israel attacked Lebanon in self defense and George Bush is a conservative? The Bilderberg group is a non-existant fantasy and you have a sex life?
D.U is good for you.
Free speach zones are an example of the freedoms we are fighting for.
There are no permanent bases in Iraq.
Aspartame is good for children and Mexican border is FIRMLY closed.
Zzzzzzzz......
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | Free speach zones are an example of the freedoms we are fighting for. |
Wow...
You've really been keeping up with things havent you?
They call them "Critics' Corners" these days. |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
Wow...
You've really been keeping up with things havent you?
They call them "Critics' Corners" these days. |
The fact that you can even compare the critics corner to the erosion of the rights and freedoms of ALL of us...well, it really does let everyone how much you value these things.
Pathetic Chipmunk, utterly pathetic.
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
Wow...
You've really been keeping up with things havent you?
They call them "Critics' Corners" these days. |
The fact that you can even compare the critics corner to the erosion of the rights and freedoms of ALL of us...well, it really does let everyone how much you value these things.
Pathetic Chipmunk, utterly pathetic. |
Oh sorry, it's ok because the critics corner only hides away people you don't like.
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Johnny Pixels wrote: |
Pathetic Chipmunk, utterly pathetic. |
Oh sorry, it's ok because the critics corner only hides away people you don't like.[/quote]
This really lets me know how narrow-minded you are, that you could even begin to compare these things. For a start, any given website or forum does NOT allow for free speech. You cannot go anywhere you want and do what ever you want in it. The behaviour of participants in any given forum is monitored by its owner/moderator and as such, usage is discretionary. You know that. If you are refused to say what you like on a website you can, by its nature go somewhere else. This is completely different the fukcing right to protest your government.
If you write something in another section of this forum, it gets moved here. Simple. YOU DONT GET ARRESTED AND PUT ON SOME BLOODY LIST because of it.
The right to free speech is a freedom that belongs to ALL OF US. It has now been seriously limited. And its people like you who are standing by letting it happen.
Typical that you could draw comparisons between forum moderation and our right to protest ours governments.
Again, pathetic point scoring.
You should be ashamed.
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | Johnny Pixels wrote: |
Pathetic Chipmunk, utterly pathetic. |
Oh sorry, it's ok because the critics corner only hides away people you don't like. |
This really lets me know how narrow-minded you are, that you could even begin to compare these things. For a start, any given website or forum does NOT allow for free speech. You cannot go anywhere you want and do what ever you want in it. The behaviour of participants in any given forum is monitored by its owner/moderator and as such, usage is discretionary. You know that. If you are refused to say what you like on a website you can, by its nature go somewhere else. This is completely different the fukcing right to protest your government.
If you write something in another section of this forum, it gets moved here. Simple. YOU DONT GET ARRESTED AND PUT ON SOME BLOODY LIST because of it.
The right to free speech is a freedom that belongs to ALL OF US. It has now been seriously limited. And its people like you who are standing by letting it happen.
Typical that you could draw comparisons between forum moderation and our right to protest ours governments.
Again, pathetic point scoring.
You should be ashamed.[/quote]
How exactly has freedom of speech been limited?
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I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | Johnny Pixels wrote: | | DeFecToR wrote: |
Pathetic Chipmunk, utterly pathetic. |
Oh sorry, it's ok because the critics corner only hides away people you don't like. |
This really lets me know how narrow-minded you are, that you could even begin to compare these things. For a start, any given website or forum does NOT allow for free speech. You cannot go anywhere you want and do what ever you want in it. The behaviour of participants in any given forum is monitored by its owner/moderator and as such, usage is discretionary. You know that. If you are refused to say what you like on a website you can, by its nature go somewhere else. This is completely different the fukcing right to protest your government.
If you write something in another section of this forum, it gets moved here. Simple. YOU DONT GET ARRESTED AND PUT ON SOME BLOODY LIST because of it.
The right to free speech is a freedom that belongs to ALL OF US. It has now been seriously limited. And its people like you who are standing by letting it happen.
Typical that you could draw comparisons between forum moderation and our right to protest ours governments.
Again, pathetic point scoring.
You should be ashamed. |
How, exactly, have your free speech rights to protest your government been violated? Are they knocking on your door, demanding that you stop posting on this forum?
There have ALWAYS been laws putting limits on street protests. People have ALWAYS gotten arrested during these protests for surpassing these limits.
Try speaking out against the government in any of the countries you folks paint as victims of the evil zionists and you'll never be heard from again. |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Jesus Christs guys. Google 'free speech zones'.
Over here we have 60 year old men being dragged out of conferences for shouting. Guys wearing peace t-shirts being arrested.
If you are seen filming police on the street in London you are told to stop filming. If you refuse you will be arrested. There a 4 million cctv cameras watching Londoners every move but we cant film our 'masters'?
What about the Patriot act? The FBI can break in to your house, take what they want and leave what they want and not tell you for 6 months.
And you ask me what freedoms we are loosing?
Jesus you guys need to watch the news.
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DeFecToR
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, listen. I'm being nice here and i'm not going to get all pissy.
Would you like me to post some news stories that have helped give me the opinion that i have?
Seriously, i dont mind. I just dont want to spend ages getting stuff if you're not going to read it. Either way is cool by me.
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | Jesus Christs guys. Google 'free speech zones'.
Over here we have 60 year old men being dragged out of conferences for shouting. |
Wasn't that the Labour Party conference? That's not a public event, that's a Labour Party event.
| Quote: | Guys wearing peace t-shirts being arrested.
If you are seen filming police on the street in London you are told to stop filming. If you refuse you will be arrested. There a 4 million cctv cameras watching Londoners every move but we cant film our 'masters'? |
That depends what you are filming. There may well be privacy or security issues. CCTV cameras are a security measure. I'd much rather have them around than not. I'd also like to point out that in the realm of information collection, the people that object are the only ones that stand out. Having had the boring job of collecting car number plates for a day, I recorded maybe 2000 plates, but I only remember one single person, and that was the lady that complained and wanted to know why we collecting number plates, what it was being for, whether she was being traced. Seriously, there's so much information out there innocent people blur into the background.
| Quote: | What about the Patriot act? The FBI can break in to your house, take what they want and leave what they want and not tell you for 6 months.
And you ask me what freedoms we are loosing?
Jesus you guys need to watch the news. |
Please can you point me towards the section of the Patriot Act which allows this?
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I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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scubadiver
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Location: Currently Andover
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I would like to point at that the 80yr old taken out by the bouncer is a Labour party member.
Evicted for protesting. |
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Johnny Pixels
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| scubadiver wrote: | I would like to point at that the 80yr old taken out by the bouncer is a Labour party member.
Evicted for protesting. |
If the labour party were evicting people from the House of Commons for protesting, then I'd be worried. If they want to chuck out an old man from their conference, that's their business.
And:
"Walter Wolfgang, the heckler ejected from last year's Labour conference, has been elected to the party's ruling National Executive Committee (NEC)"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5243220.stm
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | Jesus Christs guys. Google 'free speech zones'.
Over here we have 60 year old men being dragged out of conferences for shouting. Guys wearing peace t-shirts being arrested.
If you are seen filming police on the street in London you are told to stop filming. If you refuse you will be arrested. There a 4 million cctv cameras watching Londoners every move but we cant film our 'masters'?
What about the Patriot act? The FBI can break in to your house, take what they want and leave what they want and not tell you for 6 months.
And you ask me what freedoms we are loosing?
Jesus you guys need to watch the news. |
You're expanding your scope (also known as moving the goalposts). The Patriot Act rolls back certain privacy protections and civil liberties, and I'm not a big fan of it, but it doesn't place any limits on free speech.
I'd ask you to take a historical glance at the ebbs and flows of civil liberties under liberal governments. You and I can say and publish essentially anything we want, and we can distribute it freely--all without the threat of prosecution for our views (although there's always the threat of persecution by our peers--free speech cuts both ways).
This is no McCarthy era. The FCC has become an impotent relic. We are awash in critical opinions and blistering attacks on those in power. Every form of expression (save those that harm others or exploit children in the making) has an outlet that is tolerated, however grudgingly, by our "totalitarian" governments. A college professor who expressed sympathy for the 9/11 terrorists and vilified the victims of the WTC felt the full wrath of free speech from others and permanently damaged his career, but no official action was taken against him.
The Patriot Act is a not-unexpected backlash against a weak system deemed too liberal to be of much use against potential terrorists. It has a lot of problems and it won't withstand the test of time.
This myth of the coming Police State in the West is utterly absurd. It's perpetuated by people who apparently have no perspective. Or maybe they're just blinded by their agenda. |
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
You're expanding your scope (also known as moving the goalposts).
I was giving examples of the recent attacks on our freedoms.
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
The Patriot Act rolls back certain privacy protections and civil liberties, and I'm not a big fan of it, but it doesn't place any limits on free speech. |
It kind of does. At least the Patriot act 2 does if i remember correctly. If you are detained under terrorism laws it is forbidden for you to tell anyone other than one member of your family about your detention. If that family member notifies anyone else, including the press, it would result in a jail term. I definately remeber hearing this. I'm looking for confirmation but i havent found it just yet.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
I'd ask you to take a historical glance at the ebbs and flows of civil liberties under liberal governments. You and I can say and publish essentially anything we want, and we can distribute it freely--all without the threat of prosecution for our views (although there's always the threat of persecution by our peers--free speech cuts both ways). |
Er, David Irving. I know thats not where i live but it is a worrying event non the less.
As for "ebbs and flows", that is slightly misleading. Traditionally, war time has required a 'tightening up' of freedoms enjoyed in peace time. However, those new restrictions tend to remain in place once the conflict ends leaving a new benchmark for what we consider freedom.
You are from America right Chipmunk? I hope you're not one of these guys who goes on about how important your constitution is and how you all need to fight for it because i hate to say, it no longer exists.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
This is no McCarthy era. The FCC has become an impotent relic. We are awash in critical opinions and blistering attacks on those in power. Every form of expression (save those that harm others or exploit children in the making) has an outlet that is tolerated, however grudgingly, by our "totalitarian" governments. |
Er, not from where i'm standing.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
A college professor who expressed sympathy for the 9/11 terrorists and vilified the victims of the WTC felt the full wrath of free speech from others and permanently damaged his career, but no official action was taken against him. |
Who exactly are you refering to?
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
The Patriot Act is a not-unexpected backlash against a weak system deemed too liberal to be of much use against potential terrorists. It has a lot of problems and it won't withstand the test of time. |
Oh really? I guess we'll see...
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
This myth of the coming Police State in the West is utterly absurd. It's perpetuated by people who apparently have no perspective. Or maybe they're just blinded by their agenda. |
Typical. Funny that you didnt respond to my offer to post some news stories.
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DeFecToR
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
The Patriot Act rolls back certain privacy protections and civil liberties, and I'm not a big fan of it, but it doesn't place any limits on free speech. |
It kind of does. At least the Patriot act 2 does if i remember correctly. If you are detained under terrorism laws it is forbidden for you to tell anyone other than one member of your family about your detention. If that family member notifies anyone else, including the press, it would result in a jail term. I definately remeber hearing this. I'm looking for confirmation but i havent found it just yet. |
The draft legislation included a provision like that. Patriot Act 2 was never signed into law. The original act was renewed in 2006, adding 27 civil liberties safeguards to the original law:
http://judiciary.house.gov/Printshop.aspx?Section=232
I'm a member of the ACLU, and I'm proud of the work they've done regarding the Patriot Act:
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/patriot/25654prs20060524.html
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/nationalsecurityletters/25997prs20060626. html
| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
I'd ask you to take a historical glance at the ebbs and flows of civil liberties under liberal governments. You and I can say and publish essentially anything we want, and we can distribute it freely--all without the threat of prosecution for our views (although there's always the threat of persecution by our peers--free speech cuts both ways). |
Er, David Irving. I know thats not where i live but it is a worrying event non the less. |
I agree. I think Irving is scum. Nevertheless, his arrest was wrong. On the other hand, he knew he was barred from entering Austria, he knew they would arrest him, and he re-entered the country anyway. Pretty stupid of him.
| DeFecToR wrote: | | As for "ebbs and flows", that is slightly misleading. Traditionally, war time has required a 'tightening up' of freedoms enjoyed in peace time. However, those new restrictions tend to remain in place once the conflict ends leaving a new benchmark for what we consider freedom. |
What specific freedoms have we lost permanently in, say, the last 50 years?
| DeFecToR wrote: | | You are from America right Chipmunk? I hope you're not one of these guys who goes on about how important your constitution is and how you all need to fight for it because i hate to say, it no longer exists. |
Hyperbolic BS. Bush has been overreaching and thanks to their shared party affiliation, the branch designed to keep him in line is only now beginning to fulfill its part of the constitutional bargain, now that the President is so unpopular and there's an election on the horizon. Thankfully, the courts have held the reins back on the lot of them for the most part. The Constitution is doing just fine, thank you very much.
| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
This is no McCarthy era. The FCC has become an impotent relic. We are awash in critical opinions and blistering attacks on those in power. Every form of expression (save those that harm others or exploit children in the making) has an outlet that is tolerated, however grudgingly, by our "totalitarian" governments. |
Er, not from where i'm standing. |
What forms of expression are you barred from performing or denied access to? Aside from snuff films, child/coerced porn, and deliberate incitement to violence, anything else I can think of is freely available and the people producing them free to live their lives. Am I missing something?
| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
A college professor who expressed sympathy for the 9/11 terrorists and vilified the victims of the WTC felt the full wrath of free speech from others and permanently damaged his career, but no official action was taken against him. |
Who exactly are you refering to? |
Ward Churchill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill
| DeFecToR wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: |
The Patriot Act is a not-unexpected backlash against a weak system deemed too liberal to be of much use against potential terrorists. It has a lot of problems and it won't withstand the test of time. |
Oh really? I guess we'll see...
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
This myth of the coming Police State in the West is utterly absurd. It's perpetuated by people who apparently have no perspective. Or maybe they're just blinded by their agenda. |
Typical. Funny that you didnt respond to my offer to post some news stories. |
Be my guest. Do me a favor, though, and summarize what restricted freedom each story represents. Anecdotes about people who provoke a reaction in order to make a point about how oppressed they are I find extremely tedious. |
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DeFecToR
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DeFecToR
Moderate Poster
Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
I agree. I think Irving is scum. Nevertheless, his arrest was wrong. On the other hand, he knew he was barred from entering Austria, he knew they would arrest him, and he re-entered the country anyway. Pretty stupid of him. |
Indeed. Though i was far more disgusted by the application of 'law' against him than i was by what he said.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
What specific freedoms have we lost permanently in, say, the last 50 years?
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The right to peaceful protest for one.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
Hyperbolic BS. Bush has been overreaching and thanks to their shared party affiliation, the branch designed to keep him in line is only now beginning to fulfill its part of the constitutional bargain, now that the President is so unpopular and there's an election on the horizon. Thankfully, the courts have held the reins back on the lot of them for the most part. The Constitution is doing just fine, thank you very much. |
Sorry, I was in a rush writing that. I meant your Bill of Rights.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
What forms of expression are you barred from performing or denied access to? Aside from snuff films, child/coerced porn, and deliberate incitement to violence, anything else I can think of is freely available and the people producing them free to live their lives. Am I missing something?
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Wires crossed. I see what you mean now about 'forms of expression'.
I was going to answer the obvious and say; standing in front of parliament with a megaphone and a tent.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
Be my guest. Do me a favor, though, and summarize what restricted freedom each story represents. |
Sorry, posted that beofre reading your response. They're all pretty self-explanatory. The last one you wont like though..tee hee 
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DeFecToR
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DeFecToR
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Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 782
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.infowars.com/articles/terror/olbermann_exposes_nexus_politi cs_terror.htm
Seriously. I'd like to know what you think. This kind of politicizing/exagerating of terror makes me pretty angry. Does it make you angry?
Who'd have thought it eh? The use of terror as a poitical tool!
Should make you wonder just how 'real' the terror threat really is.
Did you ever watch that video i sent you Chipmunk? Power of Nightmares part 3?
Seemed kind of fitting what was mentioned in it no? Al Qaeda not reeeealy sort of...existing and such. Fabricating and exagerating the 'enemy' to justify the expanse of political power.
Hmmm. Should give you pause for thought.
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I confess that I was hasty in my assessment of "our" rights. It would appear that your rights are being trod upon more than mine. What concerned me the most about the first story you linked to was the woman who got put on a watch list after her comments on the radio, and also that those protesting peacefully were prosecuted while their assaulters were not. The Children's Index article is also disturbing. I don't know enough about British power-sharing structures to comment on the third article, but it strikes me as a Chicken Little piece. I've seen the AlterNet piece before, and it's nothing more than hysteria. |
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | http://www.infowars.com/articles/terror/olbermann_exposes_nexus_politi cs_terror.htm
Seriously. I'd like to know what you think. This kind of politicizing/exagerating of terror makes me pretty angry. Does it make you angry?
Who'd have thought it eh? The use of terror as a poitical tool!
Should make you wonder just how 'real' the terror threat really is.
Did you ever watch that video i sent you Chipmunk? Power of Nightmares part 3?
Seemed kind of fitting what was mentioned in it no? Al Qaeda not reeeealy sort of...existing and such. Fabricating and exagerating the 'enemy' to justify the expanse of political power.
Hmmm. Should give you pause for thought. |
If true, it angers me, yes. It simply doesn't surprise me. I do find it amusing, though, that at the beginning of the program he paraphrases the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but then basically says that in this case it's not a fallacy. And I think the connection to the Ned Lamont campaign is utterly ridiculous.
I did watch PoN3, and it only confirmed what always seemed obvious to me--that al-Qaeda is not a strict heirarchy but rather a loose collective.
I wouldn't go so far as the BBC program or Michael Moore do to minimize the threat that al-Qaeda and other groups represent, though. There have been enough attacks and enough declarations of intent that I have no doubts about how real the terror threat really is. But I've always taken official characterizations of that threat with a grain of salt, and I've never paid much heed to "terror alert" levels. |
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DeFecToR
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: |
I confess that I was hasty in my assessment of "our" rights. It would appear that your rights are being trod upon more than mine. What concerned me the most about the first story you linked to was the woman who got put on a watch list after her comments on the radio, and also that those protesting peacefully were prosecuted while their assaulters were not. The Children's Index article is also disturbing. I don't know enough about British power-sharing structures to comment on the third article, but it strikes me as a Chicken Little piece. I've seen the AlterNet piece before, and it's nothing more than hysteria. |
I really should point out that those links were just stuff i russled up in a couple of minutes. There is a considerable amount more that i have collected from a while back. I think i might start a new thread with some examples.
| chipmunk stew wrote: | | If true, it angers me, yes. It simply doesn't surprise me. I do find it amusing, though, that at the beginning of the program he paraphrases the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but then basically says that in this case it's not a fallacy. |
He he. Yeh. Was a bit i-have-to-cover-my-arse-here-first.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
And I think the connection to the Ned Lamont campaign is utterly ridiculous. |
I'm not too sure. You're maybe right. But i do know there have been quite a few more of these bogus 'alerts' other than those that featured on the Olbermann Piece. I've had the impression for quite a while that the 'alert' has become a mainstay of both US and UK public relations.
CHRIST I'M WATCHING ONE NOW!!!
According to ITN (urgh!) this latest terror alert is a "sign of our times" and that we should now accept living in a "CLIMATE OF FEAR!!!!"
God it makes me sick.
Some poor girl freaked out on a plane and they all freaked out themselves thinking she was for blowing the thing up.
Apparently the authorities first claimed she was carrying banned items on the plane aswell as fundamentalist literature. That has now been confirmed as incorrect. Nevertheless, she has been placed under arrest for disturbing the peace.
When will this nonsense end?
Now they are saying that the 'mastermind' behind the liquid bomb plot is STILL AT LARGE!!!
ohmygodohmygodohmygod
They confirmed again that this has all come from one Pakistani source.
Utterly ridiculous.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
I did watch PoN3, and it only confirmed what always seemed obvious to me--that al-Qaeda is not a strict heirarchy but rather a loose collective. |
Oh yes, very easy to redifine as necessary, and very hard to confirm it even exists. Truth is, anyone now who is connected to the Mujahedeen, Hezbulah or any other arab terror group can now quite comforably be labelled "Linked To Al Qaeda".
Whats more, any 'cell' who gets stitched up for some attack can be labelled "Inspired by Al Qaeda" should there be no connections to BL or the middle-east.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
I wouldn't go so far as the BBC program or Michael Moore do to minimize the threat that al-Qaeda and other groups represent, though.
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I used to highly value Michael Moore's work. That is, until i found out what a BS artist he is.
He plays in to the left/right stage performance, and is willing to politicize anything in order to become the darling of the 'left'.
Have a read of this;
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html
I dont know your position on guns but this guy is an outright lier. He's not just 'wrong'. He's actually lying.
| chipmunk stew wrote: |
There have been enough attacks and enough declarations of intent that I have no doubts about how real the terror threat really is.
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What attacks exactly? Every single one of 'Al Qaeda's' attacks have had some very questionable elements. I know there have been plenty of attacks atributed to them but theres a little more to it than that.
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-William James |
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