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Has Shaylor Lost The Plot?
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away

Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: a What Really Happened Section?

IronSnot wrote:

Maybe you could set up a no-planers forum for the nuts?

I think what damages us to some degree in the eyes of those who are for the first time exploring what we are about through our forum, is the prominent discussion among us of what we think really happened. It is of course important to hold those discussions, but for such to leap out from the Recent Posts section at people who just surf into this website could well be off-putting.

For example, not long ago I was told by someone who works for Quaker Peace and Social Witness (who sponsored Milan Rai's book launch) that because he had read someone posting on our forum that there was no bomb in the bus in Tavistock Square, an assertion which conflicted with his experience of walking wounded from the bus explosion coming in to his office at Friends House for first aid, we couldn't possibly be taken seriously.

I therefore propose that, just as we have a critics corner whose recent posts are not listed on the home page, so should we have a What Really Happened section where people can thrash out their various theories.

I, for one, am not happy about being labelled a nutcase because someone else is arguing on the forum that no planes hit the WTC or that we are controlled by a race of reptilian extraterrestrials.

We're trying to conduct a political campaign here, not to shoot ourselves in the foot.

Noel

xmasdale
Angel - now passed away

Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject:

Dr Hemp wrote:

Maybe, but I doubt he reads this forum, in fact, I'm 100% sure of this, as he clearly had not heard much about 9/11 truth from his appearance on Heaven & Earth.

No! but he might occasionally Google his name just to find out what others are writing about him. He might also have friends who read this forum and send him what we write.

In any case we need right-wingers on our side in this country. If the movement in the States can have Alex Jones and Christopher Bollyn, why can't we have some too? They give credibility to the movement in some people's eyes, though not in mine.

Noel

Dr Hemp
Moderate Poster

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 197
Location: Totnes, Devon, UK

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject:

ian neal wrote:

Dr Hemp wrote:

Maybe, but I doubt he reads this forum, in fact, I'm 100% sure of this, as he clearly had not heard much about 9/11 truth from his appearance on Heaven & Earth.

I think you've got more chance of the moon being made of cheese than PH coming on board, but you never know - if he does I'll even review my personal opinion of him and unreservedly withdraw the "loathsome right-wing little sh*t" comment.

Probably that is true but it doesn't mean some junior researcher won't come here and then draw his attention to it and then PH will use it as he sees fit.

In that case I should like to point out that I am calling PH this in a personal capacity and not on behalf of the Truth Movement, which is a broad church of people from all sorts of view points, including possibly fans of PH. I hope this clarifies matters!
_________________
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley

Dr Hemp
Moderate Poster

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 197
Location: Totnes, Devon, UK

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject:

xmasdale wrote:

Dr Hemp wrote:

Maybe, but I doubt he reads this forum, in fact, I'm 100% sure of this, as he clearly had not heard much about 9/11 truth from his appearance on Heaven & Earth.

If PH does a google, he will eventually find much ruder stuff I have written about him in the past regarding his position on cannabis and this was long before I became involved with 9/11 truth.

PH is going to look at the evidence, so we'll see, if he comes on board I'll eat my hat and even change my opinion of him.

In the mean time, in a personal capacity, I stand by my comments! I've been aware of this man's views for some time and they are not compatible with mine, which he would be relieved about too. I'm not going to go around saying nice things about PH just in case I offend him; that would be hypocritical.

9/11 truth seekers seek the truth about 9/11 that doesn't mean we have to all agree on other issues, and the day I start agreeing with PH is the day the Earth is flat.

This is a web forum, which any member of the public can join and post views, so therefore, I don't see how anything I post on here can be construed as being a statement on behalf of the truth movement. I’m sure if the mods really have a problem with me calling PH a loathsome right-wing sh*t then they can remove the comments; it wouldn’t’ bother me in the least, it still wouldn’t change my opinion of PH.

Regards,

Chris.
_________________
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley

scar
Moderate Poster

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: a What Really Happened Section?

xmasdale wrote:

IronSnot wrote:

Maybe you could set up a no-planers forum for the nuts?

This is exactly what ive been wanting to suggest for a while now. Loose Change have this forum:
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?s=97e5cd6a5a2 5a546aa17701f15b5fcef&showforum=24
and i think something similar would be very positive.
NPT and other controversial theories can be thoroughly debated with no backlash from others who dont wish to be associated.
I really think this should happen. It seems the perfect solution.
_________________
Positive...energy...activates...constant...elevation. (Gravediggaz)

ian neal
Angel - now passed away

Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject:

Dr Hemp wrote:

This is a web forum, which any member of the public can join and post views, so therefore, I don't see how anything I post on here can be construed as being a statement on behalf of the truth movement. I’m sure if the mods really have a problem with me calling PH a loathsome right-wing sh*t then they can remove the comments; it wouldn’t’ bother me in the least, it still wouldn’t change my opinion of PH.
.

Chris

You are right of course. Sorry. Whatever was I thinking, of course he's a loathesome right-wing * of the first order. We shouldn't take ourselves too seriously and I'm guilty of that here. I am of course expressing my views and not that of the campaign Laughing

Quote:

I am anything but a pacifist and regularly attack the foolish reductions in our military strength made by Labour and Tory governments. I believe in strong armed forces to deter war. If war begins, I believe that such wars can only be won by the most ruthless violence directed against the forces and resources of the enemy.

Charming, but we do agree about some things

Quote:

I do not think there has ever been any such organisation as Al Qaeda, which is at most an ideology (see Jason Burke's illuminating book on the subject). Muslim militants confuse the issue by adopting the name 'Al Qaeda' on various websites for various groupings in various places, but this is in a long tradition of people adopting the names their enemies have given them. There is no bearded Bond Movie villain sitting in a cave controlling all Islamic terrorism like a vast spider's web.

Source,

No doubt more pearls of wisdom exist out in cyberspace

Jane
Moderate Poster

Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 312
Location: Otley, West Yorks, England

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Quote:
I am anything but a pacifist and regularly attack the foolish reductions in our military strength made by Labour and Tory governments. I believe in strong armed forces to deter war. If war begins, I believe that such wars can only be won by the most ruthless violence directed against the forces and resources of the enemy.

I'm maybe too tired and should get to bed - maybe I've missed the whole point - but at a guess I would say I don't want to be part of any discussion group with members that hold views like this!

Is this some kind of joke I've missed!

"Bedtime" NOW!
_________________
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

http://www.wytruth.org.uk/

utopiated
Validated Poster

Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 645
Location: UK Midlands

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: Re: ANYONE CASTING ASPERSIONS.

Abandoned Ego wrote:

Anyone casting aspersions on either David or Annies commitment to this cause obviously wasnt at the gathering this weekend.

I think that tells me as much as I need to know about his critics really.

Summed up perfectly and my thoughts exactly.

If David S. is 'on the make' - he'd be having the odd long exotic holiday and/or break from all this stuff. He looked exausted to me so i guess that says it all.

Shock of shocks... standing up against deceit and corruption has never been a historically lucrative area. I can give you a list of 'broke' heretics who have done more for the evolution of human collective consciousness than the so called financial 'philanthropists'.

davID
==
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away

Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:02 am Post subject:

Jane wrote:

Quote:

You can do better than that, Jane. I don't share his views about armaments either, but I recognise his right to express them. I feel sure that if we are to bring together all those who doubt the official conspiracy theory, propounded by the US government and the mainstream media, into an effective campaign to get the truth known, the criminals brought to justice and the War on Terror ended, we must form a broad alliance with people who hold a wide variety of views on other topics.

Whenever I feel repulsed by someone else's views, I try to remember that some of our supporters believe that when a priest blesses bread and wine it actually transmutes into the the flesh and blood of a first century Jewish teacher. And yet, I do not leave this forum on grounds that it tolerates posts from Catholics. Wink

Noel

lostpomme
Minor Poster

Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 94

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 12:18 am Post subject:

Quote:

NPT and other controversial theories can be thoroughly debated with no backlash from others who dont wish to be associated.
I really think this should happen. It seems the perfect solution.

Dead right Scar. Ive gone on about this elsewhere but it's worth mentioning again. We need to be acutely aware of the first impresions of visitors. I've heard from a few that have checked the site over briefly and been scared off by extreme views.
We already have a mountain of evidence. It makes no sense to argue a controversial subject like the NPT when it could do more harm than good. We want the truth, but we want results too.
_________________
War is when the government tells you who the bad guy is. Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.

Jane
Moderate Poster

Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 312
Location: Otley, West Yorks, England

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Yes, on the whole I think this would be the best idea. There are so many people now who are beginning to show a real interest - where they to look on here and the first thing they find is "no planes" theory they will wonder whatever next? There were no towers in the first place?!! It was a false memory implanted in our minds on that famous day!

Still, a lot of newcomers might be equally "scared off" by some of my insane ramblings.....!
_________________
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

http://www.wytruth.org.uk/

waking life
Minor Poster

Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 32

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject:

I have no problem with people believing that no planes were used, but the real problem is when these people feel the need to push this theory as thought their life depended on it. It becomes an easy way out for people to then ridicule any alternative to the official conspiracy theory, which is an understandable reaction. Why influential people like Reynolds and Shayler feel the need to promote the theory is very strange to say the least...

ian neal
Angel - now passed away

Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject:

Jane wrote:

Quote:

Hi Jane

Yes indeedy. You did miss the point, but don't worry about it.

Quick recap

Peter Hitchins appears on Heaven and Earth show where DRG and David S gave a good account of themselves

Chris calls Peter Hitchins is a loathsome ring wing *

There is the vaguest possibility that Peter Hitchins might take up DS on his offer to debate tthe evidence, so I suggested that maybe we shouldn't deliberately alienate him by calling him a loathsome right wing *

To which Chris replied

On reflection, I realised I was being is ridiculous, we can't endlessly pussyfoot around. If we can't call someone who says

Quote:

a loathsome ring wing *, then what can we say.

I hope this clears this up.

Annie
9/11 Truth Organiser

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 830
Location: London

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject:

Bicnarok wrote:

[
I wasn´t aware of her relationship to him, im not a mind reader and she didn´t add "Shaylors woman" to her name, plus it doesn´t really matter.
The point is this. If you are in the public eye, well know, etc.. you CAN make money out of the situation. Simple as that!!

Plus someone close to him isn´t going to go against him are they.

You switch your brain on!! I wasn´t accusing anyone just mentioning the possibility and the possibility is there, waffle and bring in his cousin twice removed for all care. Doesn´t mean a thing.

Hi Bicnarok

No probs, it's a valid supposition, but just to set the record straight for you and others who don't know the story....

Dave and I met in MI5, and left together in 1996 to blow the whistle on the spies' crimes and misdemeanors. This includes, amongst many other illegalities, funding Islamic extremist terrorists with known links to Bin laden to carry out an illegal assassination attempt against Col Gaddafi of Libya in 1996, in which innocent people died. For this, Dave has been to prison twice, and I, his brother, his best friends, a student supporter, and various journalists have been arrested, and in some cases prosecuted.

And yes, minor "celebrity" does usually lead to an acquisition of wealth. You only have to look at the lives of various inhabitants of the Big Brother house, or women who have slept with footballers to realise that's the case.

But it doesn't work like that if you're a whistleblower, especially when you take on the intelligence services and the British establishment.

One, we didn't go into it for money, but have still been accused of this. Two, Dave has been injuncted and blacklisted, so couldn't make a living as a journalist even if he wanted to, despite the fact that he started out editing an award-winning student newspaper, and worked for The Sunday Times before joining MI5. Three, he hasn't written loads of books, as MI5 has threatened publishers. Four, I finally wrote an account of what we had been through to set the record straight but, although it is one of only four books written by former UK spooks, it was blacklisted by the British MSM and has been buried.

So the last 9 years have been a seriously hand-to-mouth existence.

Do you know any rich footballers, before I get too old..........

Regards

Annie
_________________
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing - Edmund Burke.
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem Americanam appellant - Tacitus Redactus.

Jane
Moderate Poster

Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 312
Location: Otley, West Yorks, England

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:06 am Post subject:

Quote:

Bicnarok wrote:

I wasn´t aware of her relationship to him, im not a mind reader and she didn´t add "Shaylors woman" to her name, plus it doesn´t really matter.
The point is this. If you are in the public eye, well know, etc.. you CAN make money out of the situation. Simple as that!!

There are a lot of what I can't help but think of as "male assumptions"! here Bicnarok (although this is not really a fair term to use on this board, as most of the males I've met in 9/11 are very gentle and caring - I'm having dinner with quite a few of them in this area in Bradford tonight!) - but nevertheless, what you say and the way you say it represents a certain way of thinking that has tended to predominate in this society until now (I hope to see things soon start to change!) and which has caused a lot of alienation, pain, division and suffering between its inhabitents, including those who make these "assumptions" themselves -

Firstly, Annie is not "Shaylor's woman" she is a person in her own right. Why not call David "Annie's man"?!! I was about to say would you like to be called someone's man? (I'm assuming you are a man!) but really this has a different connertation - you may not get what I mean!). In describing Annie as "Shaylor's woman" to me it makes her sound like his possession - as if she has very little significance apart from defining her in regards to her relationship to him.

Secondly, you say "You can make money out of the situation. Simple as that" Again, this reminds me of the values of this society which I can't help but feel have largely been defined by a certain type of "agressive male" thinking!

Don't assume that "making money" is the thing that motivates most people! It is unfortunately the thing that motivates a lot of people but there are others who think very differently!

For some reason the words you chose to use here make me think of a great big billboard by the roadside with a (female) model in a swimsuit, advertising some way of "making money" by doing something empty and shallow - "grab that cash and make a stash"

There is more to being a human being then this and it is time people were liberated from this way of thinking - including the ones who think like this - them more then ever really!
_________________
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

http://www.wytruth.org.uk/

Jane
Moderate Poster

Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 312
Location: Otley, West Yorks, England

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:25 am Post subject:

Quote:

Hi Jane

Yes indeedy. You did miss the point, but don't worry about it.

Yes, thanks Ian - I thought I might have done!

See the response I have just made above as to how I feel about this way of seeing things (I believe in strong armed forces to deter war. If war begins, I believe that such wars can only be won by the most ruthless violence directed against the forces and resources of the enemy.)

How can we term this way of seeing things other then “male assumptions” or as I usually modify “aggressive male” assumptions? I wouldn’t like this description (ie “male” assumptions) if I was a male and there are obviously a lot of good and positive things about “males” and the way they see things – some that females sometimes lack and balance the whole thing in a positive way –

What term can we use that won’t be offensive to anyone? I want to say a “sick” way of seeing things – but this will no doubt be misconstrued by many as I believe it was when Martin Luther King refered to his “sick brothers and sisters” – I don’t think he meant “sick” here as we would talk about a “sick” joke – for example making “fun” about a disability – I think he meant literally “sick” – not whole, in need of healing, loving, caring –

Unfortunately this “sick” way of defining things has tended to predominate in the Western world until now – time for it to be “healed” and “made whole”!
_________________
Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

http://www.wytruth.org.uk/

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