Us and Them

[prole art threat]

I have attempted to create similar threads along this line but they appear to have sunk without trace.

We need to look more deeply at 'denial' and 'comfort zones'. People just keep backing off. What is the difference between them and us? It's obviously nothing to do with the fact that all of them havent researched it, some have, yet still cant see what we are saying. What is the matter here?

Are we more evolved than these lame ducks or something? And how long do we have to wait for this bunch of retards to wake up and pull their fooking socks up? They have some great psychological need to cling on to bs.

Ive spent over a year bashing my head against brick walls and although I have had some successes, the majority are just so drippy and complacent. It has made me see the human race in a totally different light. It feels like I am living in a sci-fi movie and it is frustating the hell out of me.

I mean how can anyone look at the following collapses and not see 'controlled demolitions' http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3249714675910247150

Those towers crumble like sandcastles, for christ's sake.


As far as I can see, they all need a good hiding for nonchalently putting this planet in such a precarious position. This isnt a game and these sheep need to understand this, because when it does all come out they are all going to be pulled out of their comfort zones screaming.

My patience is drying with these ba ba ba ba ba barbara annes.

[chek]

Hi Prole Art,
It is frustrating and it takes time. Like you I find it hard to believe that intelligent people can't see it straight away, but that's because nobody has a clue about the scale involved. It's beyond everyday experience which is where the majority of folks live their lives.

Looked at objectively, 911 is like the plot of a movie, except there was no James Bond to avert catastrophe in the nick of time.

Most people would sooner have a nervous breakdown than imagine there are people in the world who would do those things, let alone that their own governments are involved.

I find that it's best not to be pushy at all, and that people will ask you some things a piece at a time (like I'm some sort of walking 911 know-everything encyclopaedia) a question here and a few days later another and so on.

It's a big step for some to make, so be patient is my best advice.

[ishaar]

re denial, I have been thinking about this a while now, why is it, on discovering what is really going down here, some people can take it on board without difficulty, they freeze for a moment, then... '*...unbelievable...' then a string of questions, from that moment on their on the case, others have realised but don't like to talk, or even think about it much, 'too depressing' they say, but they are changed and they know. Then others kinda know intuitively but can't accept it consciously, they set about searching to prove their intuition wrong, these are often the people who visit this site just to name call and post links to false evidence, they need as many people as possble to agree with them in order to win the fight against their own intuition and common sense. I'm often visited by someone who, if I let them, would sit there all day arguing that the government line on 9 11 is true, this is someone who has never believed a word spoken by any government, a practising activist for years yet somehow he believes the government now. I think the combination of the actual 'terrorist' events along with unprecedented media control and possibly new methods of propaganda has been succesfull in enslaving the minds of many. Many don't understand why a discussion of 9 11 is important, 'it was a long time ago' they haven't joined the dots, a process that many here seem to take for granted. Without joining the dots you don't see the picture.

Maybe it would be interesting to know what the members' initial reaction to the 9 11 event actually was, maybe that was a factor playing a part in our response to all that has happened since.

[suspecta]

Great thread. I'd love to talk about this.

My first reactions to 9-11 - on the day.

1 Total shock and horror
2 5 minutes later thinking 'oh no, what will the US do now? Bomb the Middle East in revenge...
3 Then watching all the coverage and feeling the old reality slipping away. Imagining it'll be Muslim terrorists.
4 Finding out it was Bin Laden. Feeling absolute terror of him. Afraid to look at planes in the sky

few days later -

On hearing about fundamentalist Muslims wanting to bomb us into an Islamic Caliphate, feeling absolutely terrified and also very angry with them. Unable to sleep, shaking all night.

This carried on for weeks, lessening daily but with an increasing sense of dread at what Bush might do next. Then Bush bombed Afghanistan. Terrible feelings of dread and fear, and angry at US overreaction.

Looked at images of Bin Laden and thinking he didn't look evil.

Then, one day on the internet, around January 2002, read that the war on Afghanistan had been planned before 9-11.

Began to question first that, then everything else.

Suspecta

[Mark Gobell]

Suspecta - thank you for pinching me back into reality.

I started to reply to Proles question earlier with ideas about the psychology of denial, propaganda, group think, herd identity etc., but abandoned it because I couldn't do it justice in a post.

I first heard about 9/11 at work and nervously laughed it off.

I then saw the TV down the pub and stared in disbelief.

I was dumbfounded.

The whole thing seemed unreal.

I tried to work out my rationale. I tried to justify it.

I did not see a problem with any of it then.

I swallowed the complete event. Whole.

The planes did seem unreal. Everyone talked about that.

But I forgot about that.

We all talked about what would happen. That furnished our minds with the expected outcome.

I had my doubts soon after.

The rhetoric seemed too rehearsed and too repetitive.

I remember pub debates about Iraq where we had to choose a side.

I stumbled across Jimmy Walter on the web and then woke up.

[suspecta]

I've only managed to truly wake up 2 people in all this time, and I mean truly wake up, not just prod a bit. Both are now obsessed with the whole thing, but in both cases it took me 4 years to wake them up! They both thought for ages that I'd fallen into some sort of conspiracy theory trap.

What woke them both up?

One of them saw a 9-11 video and it completely convinced her.

The other finally did what I asked, which was start reading stuff on the net and GIVE IT TIME. The other night this friend said: 'well I did what you suggested and spent three hours on the net the other night reading all about the physics of the twin tower collapses. And I now have no shadow of a doubt that they were brought down by controlled explosions.'

There was somebody else in the car listening to all this and who just couldn't take it in. This person kept saying things like: 'but how can you believe they could be so evil? To do that to their own people? It's impossible!' But by the end of the journey this person was half-convinced himself although unable to see what he could do about it. Perhaps he went home and told his wife and another ball started rolling.... I hope so.

So thinking about it, people do need to be willing to give it plenty of time. They need to spend several hours sifting through it all, watching a video, or reading reams and reams on the net. It needs a big consciousness shift and it's scary because it turns everything upside down.

I also think it's more likely to happen to certain sorts of people, although I can't quite put my finger on who. I guess it's less likely to happen to people who tend towards political apathy, or 'authoritarian-type' thinking. It probably helps if you're already predisposed to be suspicious of officialdom.

But in the end what you want is for the person to have a true 'road to Damascus'-type revelation, where they wake up and go 'holy *! This is terrible! I've got to DO something about it!' I so wish it could happen more often.

Perhaps if everybody here could list what finally did it for them we can start to build up a picture of the best wake-up calls. The planned war on Afghanistan did it for me because at the time it was portrayed as a direct reaction to 9-11. Finding out it had been planned before 9-11 raised disturbing questions about 9-11. Then I found out about PNAC and everything began to fit into place in the most horrifying and disturbing way of all.

Suspecta

[ishaar]

I saw the event on someones computer in an office in Hanover Square where I worked at the time, 5 of us stood there to watch the second plane hit, there was a shocked silence for a few seconds, then everyone looked at each other, 3 or 4 seconds without words followed by a few expletives and attempts at figuring out what was going on. Once we heard the official line, there were comments like, ...well it was only a matter of time.... a david and goliath type scenario. Personally I saw Bin Laden and the crew as freedom fighters, backed by a rich family and with connections in high places, striking a blow for the long oppressed people of the east. It was terrible to see all the death and misery in NY, at the same time You can't forget all the death and misery suffered by innocents in the east as a result of wars and UK, US foreign policy...

The ensuing wash of media, I couldn't watch it, it's the style of presentation, a sudden assumption that we are all in agreement about something, I've always found that too spooky. I remember as far back as the gulf war, I would watch occaisionally but the only person who seemed not to have been taken by the body snatchers was John Pilger, but even watching him was strange because he would be part of a panel of babbling heads, they would shut up when he spoke but then ignore him and continue the innane babble, they weren't just on different pages, they weren't in the same book, they weren't on the same planet, yet they were observing the same events

Anyway, 9 11, it all seemed to make sense at first, or did it? Were we an audience to an enormouse David Copperfield type event? Cause that what it feels like, continued hypnosis, with the occaisional 'trip' word delivered through the media, and repeat magic tricks to keep us in wonder, or in this case terror. Personally I didn't feel terrorised when I thought it was terrorists behind the events. When I finally realised the lie, when the state of hypnosis shattered by a 40 hour internet research session, ('eye witness' being the brick that shattered the mirror) and government complicity became obvious, thats when it got scary. Seeing Bush and Blair, hearing their words describing the 'terrorist', talking about 'evil' and knowing they were actually describing themselves. Seeing everyone go about their daily lives believing the lie, responding to the trip words of the media, waiting for the next magic trick. I started asking a few people I knew if they were suspicious about 9 11 and found some already knew but didn't talk about it, others said they were worried about me, thought I'd been working too hard, that kinda thing, I think the Northwood documents are important because it blows the myth that governments aren't capable of this kind of duplicity.
I started phoning the BBC and other agencies, I kinda knew what the responses would be but I was having a problem dealing with the indignation I felt and I expressed this very succinctly many times over a month or so, then I got a bit paranoid, interpreted that as a survival mechanism and shut up for a while.
It was good to find this site, I've not interacted with many of you, hardly at all really, but i appreciate you all and what you stand for. We don't know whats round the next corner, but I for one appreciate each every passing day right now more than I ever have. I'm optimistic, at the same time nothing is predictable, the conjourer is still on the stage, but I don't hear much applause these days.

This is post 9 11 land, we are one audience looking at one screen, seeing two entirely different movies.

[coconut]

I saw the planes hit on TV when I came home from school at lunch. I was 13 at the time (18 now). I was a bit amazed but I didn't think much of it after that.

A couple of years later we were shown the Naudet brothers' documentary in school - not one word of dissent against the official story.

I feel kind of pathetic now. I only left school in 2005, had I even woken up then I would have been able to bring it up in school and maybe wake a few others up as well.

But it was in January of this year that I came across a document which talked about PNAC and their "Rebuilding America's Defenses". I was horrified. A little more digging that night brought me to Chris Morganti's site, 911physics.co.nr and it completely woke me up. Before then, I had been vehemently opposed to the Iraq war and the "war on terror". I knew a lot of things weren't right. When I discovered Chris' site and learned about 9/11, I could see everything related to it in front of me, it all suddenly made sense. It was like a puzzle, the pieces of which magically fit together for me at that moment.

So I'm now a "member" of the Irish 9/11 truth movement. So far I have woken a few people up but have received opposition from others.

Waking up to the truth of 9/11 is a different experience for everyone. A lot of people will dismiss it out of hand, others will be sceptical but might give it a chance, others will accept that the WTC was brought down with CD but that al-Qaeda did it () and some will stop and think "...that makes perfect sense". I experienced the latter and was woken up in about five minutes. Lucky me, eh?

[marky 54]

i have come to the conclusion that some people are to stuborn to understand why we have concerns regarding 9/11. some of the critics here are still saying the same thing they have always said even when showing them stuff that proves differant. if you show them video's of people saying they heard explosions , they were mistaken in the confusion. if you show one where you actually hear the explosion/s it was masonary falling on cars. if you show the video of the fireman saying theres a bomb in the building they go away and start picking fault with other posts and never answer. best thing to do is to try and make people aware who dont even know about the fact there could be a cover-up. some of the critics here seem to be on a mission to prove there goverment would never do that because they carnt accept it as reality. it would be to shocking for them. they rely on popular mechianc's or goverment run places for evidence. like your not gonna lie about evidence if your covering up. its like believing in aliens to them, but what they dont realise is theres an history of 9/11's(not as big) to get public support for wars. so unanswered questions need to be answered and taken seriously.

[chek]

I remember the day it happened getting home in the evening and my (now ex) wife in a state of panic and telling me 'they're blowing up the world'.
I reassured her that bad as it looked, it was a symbolic attack rather than a major one. I'm a cold war kid - anything less than nuclear attack, we shrug off.

But after a day or two I could not understand how air defences had not worked. It was when I read a Gore Vidal essay in early 2003 I realised I wasn't the only one thinking along those lines. And since then the pieces of the puzzle multiplied until the inside job solution remained the only one.

But in the area I live, (Northern Ireland) I don't know of any other 911 Truthers locally. It's an uphill struggle against ignorance in one of the most conservative, ignorant and bigoted places in the world outside Israel.

[xmasdale]

[DeFecToR]

Denial?

What about OUR 'denial'?

I created a post;
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=4055

In which i invited people to watch and comment on a new Dutch 911 documentary. I found it hard to wacth myself, but i felt some of its 'debunking' information is important, at least, to someone who ACTUALLY IS looking for FACTS.

Guess what....

It sank like a fukcing stone without ONE SINGLE REPLY.

This is something i am getting fed up with.

On the one hand there are the critics. Blind to the facts that oppose their opinions. And on the other hand, there are members of the truth movement who are absolutely unwilling to examine the weaker elements of their arguement.

Its p1ssing me right off.

I cringe every time i hear one of the 'leaders' of our movement repeat bad facts that have been shown to be false long ago.

[prole art threat]

[chek]

[ishaar]

DeFecToR wrote:
Denial?

[xmasdale]

[marky 54]

the link leads me to another post, can you explain or link what debunking you mean please prole art threat, im intrested to know so i can see what you mean and so i can rule out things that might have explanations. truth means truth no matter what it proves, so this sounds important.

[marky 54]

bah dammit the above post is meant for defactor, not prole art threat. sorry for the mix up.

[DeFecToR]

[DeFecToR]

[DeFecToR]

I forgot.
There was also an experiment carried out where an amature pilot with about the same skill level as Hani Hanjour attempted to fly a plane in to the Pentagon using exactly the same flight path that Hanjour is thought to have used. He did it three times and threes time he successfully hit the Pentagon. This showed without doubt that the plane could have performed those manouvers and that Hanjour could have done it.
Despite this, i do still very much doubt the official story of what happened at the pentagon.

[DeFecToR]

[chek]

[DeFecToR]

Yeh man. I really am starting to take another thought for Kevin Ryan's (i think it was his) theory about the TT being taken down by a mazor device, with thermite being used to cut specific areas of the TT. Its a very interesting theory but unfortunately it is very difficult to prove one way or the other.

[Sam Danner]

You know I stand behind you %100 percent. These Dumnass Americans and yes I said that are sooooooooo Stupid. Forget the Damn Pentagon. I could talk about the Towers falling straight down into there own Foot prints for Hours. It is just so plain to see. WTC 7 alone just by itself ought to be enough to wake us up. But no. Americans sit back in there recliners and drink a Couple more. Who in the Hell ever heard of Steel and Concrete 110 stories Buldings Falling Straight down and I mean Straight down at near Free fall?????

[chek]