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DeFecToR
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 Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:07 am Post subject: CENTCOM Sergeant Details Traitorous Stand Down Orders |
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http://infowars.net/articles/September2006/260906Chavez.htm
Dont want to, but i have to ask;
How are you guys going to rubbish this possible 'whistle-blower'?
One of your central arguements is that if something this big was true then why aren't there people coming out? Well, if this guy is for real then he certainly would be considered a whistle-blower.
I know already you guys will rubbish this man, seeing as how you already have all the answers, but it should be fun to see from what angle you come from.
You've already proven to me that no matter who 'comes out' you wont accept what they say, but lurkers may not know that yet, so....
On with the bashing....
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:52 am Post subject: Re: CENTCOM Sergeant Details Traitorous Stand Down Orders |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | http://infowars.net/articles/September2006/260906Chavez.htm
Dont want to, but i have to ask;
How are you guys going to rubbish this possible 'whistle-blower'?
One of your central arguements is that if something this big was true then why aren't there people coming out? Well, if this guy is for real then he certainly would be considered a whistle-blower.
I know already you guys will rubbish this man, seeing as how you already have all the answers, but it should be fun to see from what angle you come from.
You've already proven to me that no matter who 'comes out' you wont accept what they say, but lurkers may not know that yet, so....
On with the bashing.... |
Certainly not. This wants looking at. |
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telecasterisation
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: |
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It initially appears to be on the lines of 'I saw Bigfoot when out hunting'.
The basic concept is interesting but consists of overheard conversations and top secret documents read whilst open. Can any of it be proven? If the answer is no, then it carries no weight especially as it is being championed by Alex Jones.
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Andrew Johnson
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John White
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| telecasterisation wrote: | It initially appears to be on the lines of 'I saw Bigfoot when out hunting'.
The basic concept is interesting but consists of overheard conversations and top secret documents read whilst open. Can any of it be proven? If the answer is no, then it carries no weight especially as it is being championed by Alex Jones. |
This man can credibly be placed where he said he was when he said he was. This then gives his testimony more than passing credibility as deserving serious answers. This is just the sort of situation where a new enquirey could put people under oath and establish what happened.
If it could be corroborated that the failure to intercept was explained as resulting from a "stand down order" to the soldiers in the room, then a key pillar of plausable deniability is effectively dynamited
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chipmunk stew
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utopiated
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Ooooh what a vast range of useful links.
We all know 911 is a vertiable [white] rabbit hole... but how can what he is saying aid the orthodox line??
I like and appreciate all angles being looked at with a fine tooth comb but it can get a tad OTT.
Most of all we/I go on how people come accross. Now I know LJ mentioned 'psy-ops' in his interview on AJ show [this was an interesting aside that pricked my ears up] but he comes accross pretty genuine. Sometimes no amount of CoIntelPro type training will *cover-up* an account someone is giving.
Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney and Rice are prime examples of this - sooooo easy to spot the fact they are blatenty deceiving the public and [mediated] MSM.
<EDIT> -=-=
You include a James Randi link - ROTFL 
Randi and his associated "researchers" a CFI-West are the biggest jokers on the planet. It took them 3 years to FAIL to replicate Billy Meier images after a challenge was put forward on Coast-to-Coast radio.
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| utopiated wrote: | | Most of all we/I go on how people come accross. |
Making you the easiest type of sucker.
| Quote: | You include a James Randi link - ROTFL
Randi and his associated "researchers" a CFI-West are the biggest jokers on the planet. It took them 3 years to FAIL to replicate Billy Meier images after a challenge was put forward on Coast-to-Coast radio. |
This Billy Meier? http://www.billymeier.com/
These images?
And Randi is the joke?
(BTW, the link is to a discussion in the forum, which is public. The people who post there are no more affiliated with JREF than I am with The British 9/11 Truth Campaign) |
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ComfortablyNumb
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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I'm affraid Chavez's discharge papers are definitely doctored in section 14.
The first part that states //4WKS// is exactly the same to the pixel to the following 14WKS except the number 1 has been 'squezzed' in between the // and the 4. You can see where the final forward slash is broken along with the 4 to give you a white pixel block surrounding the 1 that's been added over the top.
I doubt that 4WKS would be exactly the same if repeated on a typewritter. The impression speed and weight and the paper fibres would make fractional differences IMHO.
Sorry to spoil the party.
Last edited by ComfortablyNumb on Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:19 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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ComfortablyNumb
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| utopiated wrote: | | Randi and his associated "researchers" a CFI-West are the biggest jokers on the planet. It took them 3 years to FAIL to replicate Billy Meier images after a challenge was put forward on Coast-to-Coast radio. |
Billy Meier was a fraud. Some of his models were found on his property. Although it was very clever for a one armed man to do all this! |
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telecasterisation
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This man can credibly be placed where he said he was when he said he was. This then gives his testimony more than passing credibility as deserving serious answers. This is just the sort of situation where a new enquirey could put people under oath and establish what happened. |
Being placed somewhere does not in any way give any credence to a claim - 'I can prove I worked at Area 51' - proves I whizzed around Venus on my evenings off utilising back engineered alien technology?
When has being under oath made the slightest difference to what people say?
This man has come from nowhere and has supplied bits of paper as proof of his status. How many people have fake but genuine looking passports/papers?
All I am saying, I am not doubting what he claims - but it is all word of mouth and without something more substantial, it fans the fire and not much else - not withstanding the fact the validity of his credentials are under question.
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utopiated
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: | | utopiated wrote: | | Randi and his associated "researchers" a CFI-West are the biggest jokers on the planet. It took them 3 years to FAIL to replicate Billy Meier images after a challenge was put forward on Coast-to-Coast radio. |
Billy Meier was a fraud. Some of his models were found on his property. Although it was very clever for a one armed man to do all this! |
heheh... discussed all this at length elsewhere and I'm not going off topic [although you seem to be allowed to to do for David Icke related issues on this forum... ideas that are *at least* as "way out" as the Meier case IMO]
To answer your point [which to be fair a lot of ppl bring up] though:
Wendelle Stevens is known as a very straight, erudite and non-prankster like researcher. He was involved in bringing over the models for image comparison between the actual shots taken by Meier. A lot of work in the late 80s went into demonstrating the photos were not fake and not created in photoshop [in the 70s!] by a one armed broke farmer. The models were left in BMs garage after this - and Meiers wife then went a bit insane and lied in court bringing up the model issues and many other untrue items... as happens between humans who are annoyed with each other sometimes.
As I said - James Randi claims he can dupe any "paranormal" phenomena - well he and his organisation failed on this one. Give Meier the Randi $1 Million reward. He needs it. For someone who has had 16 logged assasination attempts and so much unpaid and unwanted attention over 3 decades he is still broke. Where is his incentive to defraud?
Anyway - the case needs as much research as 9/11 - it really is that big when you take the time to look. The images you used are the ones everyone uses when there are far better plus cinefilm.
The images are a distraction - there is validated witness data going back to the 1950s/60s in india where Meier also had documented UFO encounters [one witness was the female Thai UN rep] and I think if you went and asked in Meier's Swiss village you'd find dozens of people who accept having seen craft for years - this is not even an issue for them anymore. Has he paid off the whole area in free organically farmed veg?? Maybe.
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utopiated
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| telecasterisation wrote: |
All I am saying, I am not doubting what he claims - but it is all word of mouth and without something more substantial, it fans the fire and not much else - not withstanding the fact the validity of his credentials are under question. |
Sure... fair points. However we live in a age of endless digital/CGI simulation - there really is no 'authentication' - who's line on real authentic whistleblowers are you going to use? A military paper? Some other 9/11 researchers testimony to his credentials?
I am not [as chimpmonk implied by editing my response] suggesting we take anything a face value but I know one thing that has diverted us away from more fruitful areas and that is this fixation to "dis-info agents". At a certain point it goes beyond this judgement... the key thing should be:
"What is this witness/researcher telling me and how does the new information fit into both my and the wider collective current model?"
...because if we focus for hours on deciding who is a 'dis-info' agent we're not only wasting our time but doing *just* what Dick Cheney et al want us to do as they sit in the bunker congratulating themselves.
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Last edited by utopiated on Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When has being under oath made the slightest difference to what people say? |
It got Archer jailed for lying under oath. Never heard of perjury? Do you not wonder why Bush refused to testify to the 9/11 Commission under oath? There are harsh penalties for being caught lying under oath which do not apply otherwise. That is why they HAVE the oath in courts. |
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ComfortablyNumb
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you saying you take everything at face value? |
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| utopiated wrote: | | The images you used are the ones everyone uses when there are far better plus cinefilm. |
They're merely the first ones I found...displayed prominently on his website.
He's a clever illusionist, I'll give you that. But don't tell me you believe that David Copperfield literally and in actual fact made the Statue of Liberty disappear. |
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telecasterisation
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He's a clever illusionist, I'll give you that. But don't tell me you believe that David Copperfield literally and in actual fact made the Statue of Liberty disappear. |
Why not? I know a couple of pilots who supposedly made two very large skyscrapers disappear in just a few seconds.
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I completely challenge the official version of events - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC -I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC |
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: | I'm affraid Chavez's discharge papers are definitely doctored in section 14.
The first part that states //4WKS// is exactly the same to the pixel to the following 14WKS except the number 1 has been 'squezzed' in between the // and the 4. You can see where the final forward slash is broken along with the 4 to give you a white pixel block surrounding the 1 that's been added over the top.
I doubt that 4WKS would be exactly the same if repeated on a typewritter. The impression speed and weight and the paper fibres would make fractional differences IMHO.
Sorry to spoil the party. |
Thanks for pointing this out, CN. Turns out much of the document is a forgery. And a poorly executed one at that.
See discussion: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64837 |
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Jay Ref
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: CENTCOM Sergeant Details Traitorous Stand Down Orders |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | http://infowars.net/articles/September2006/260906Chavez.htm
Dont want to, but i have to ask;
How are you guys going to rubbish this possible 'whistle-blower'?
One of your central arguements is that if something this big was true then why aren't there people coming out? Well, if this guy is for real then he certainly would be considered a whistle-blower.
I know already you guys will rubbish this man, seeing as how you already have all the answers, but it should be fun to see from what angle you come from.
You've already proven to me that no matter who 'comes out' you wont accept what they say, but lurkers may not know that yet, so....
On with the bashing.... |
It seems it's pretty easy to "rubbish" this guy simply because there is evidence that he has rubbished-up this fake story himself.
Here's something I found on a CT site where they have now labelled him a "disinfo agent"!  funny that, it seems every time one of you CTers comes up with evidence that is proven false you scream "disinfo" and suddenly the fakery you earlier championed is no longer your fault.
You lot have stacked the deck so that the truth movement is never wrong! Religions are set up in exactly the same way. Welcome to the cult.
| Quote: | Now that Mr. Chavez has answered some softball questions put forward by his conspiracy theorist friends, how about he answer some real questions:
1. Why does his DD-214 list no foreign service, despite his claim to an 8 month tour in Afghanistan?
2. Why does his DD-214 omit many ribbons that he should have automatically (not merit based requiring his commander to submit them) based on his service, including 1 NDSM, an NCO Professional Development ribbon, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal and a NATO medal?
3. Why does his DD-214 list a 14 week Special Forces Q course, despite the fact that the course is considerably longer, and makes no mention of SFAS or Airborne training, both prerequisites, and does not list a Special Forces MOS?
4. Why, even though he claims expertise with explosives does he claim that thermite, an incendiary, is an explosive and a component of C-4?
5. Why does he suggest that Afghan soldiers could not have flown the hijacked planes, despite the fact that nobody has ever claimed they did?
6. Why does he claim to have spoken with a "good buddy" Lieutenent General, who was a former commander of the Army Corp of Engineers at CENTCOM in 2001, when the only 3 star assigned to CENTCOM at that time was Lieutenent General Michael P. DeLong, a Marine?
6. Why does he claim he flew in an uparmored C5 into Kabul on September 25th (or September 26th his story changes) 2001, when Kabul was securely in Taliban hands until it was liberated by the Northern Alliance on November 13th, 2001?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1114/p1s1-wosc.html
7. Why does he claim to have pulled "roving guard" on an oil pipeline in 2001-2002, despite the fact that this pipeline is still in the planning stages 5 years later?
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2006/2006-04-17-05.asp
8. Why does he repeatedly claim that he received a Chapter 13 separation discharge to enter school, when a Chapter 13 is a discharge for "unsatisfactory performance"?
http://www.usapa.army.mil/pdffiles/r635_200.pdf
9. What type of shoulder fired weapon causes could cause the type of damage seen at the Pentagon, as he mentioned in a radio interview this morning?
10. Why does he repeatedly claim that Dick Cheney was appointed head of NORAD in 2001, when the commander of NORAD at that time was actually Air Force General Ralph Eberhart?
Answer those questions, and I will start to take you seriously |
http://www.911blogger.com/node/3202
Aparently this guy is not only a poseur...he's a really stupid one.
-z
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TK0001
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| telecasterisation wrote: | | Quote: | | He's a clever illusionist, I'll give you that. But don't tell me you believe that David Copperfield literally and in actual fact made the Statue of Liberty disappear. |
Why not? I know a couple of pilots who supposedly made two very large skyscrapers disappear in just a few seconds. |
This is so horribly inappropriate I don't even know how to react. Hopefully I'm interpreting this the wrong way, but I have to ask - are you making light of the towers falling? I'll hold back my utter disgust until you have a chance to explain yourself...
Last edited by TK0001 on Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DaveyJ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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id say thats pretty conclusive really
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DeFecToR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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I thought he might be on the level but some of what he said is quite clearly *.
He's not from JRef is he. 
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ComfortablyNumb wrote: | I'm affraid Chavez's discharge papers are definitely doctored in section 14.
The first part that states //4WKS// is exactly the same to the pixel to the following 14WKS except the number 1 has been 'squezzed' in between the // and the 4. You can see where the final forward slash is broken along with the 4 to give you a white pixel block surrounding the 1 that's been added over the top.
I doubt that 4WKS would be exactly the same if repeated on a typewritter. The impression speed and weight and the paper fibres would make fractional differences IMHO.
Sorry to spoil the party. |
ComfortablyNumb, good call. And you have really set them off sleuthing at the JREF forum
More forgeries and innacuracies than you can count ..
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=6483 |
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Jay Ref
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: | I thought he might be on the level but some of what he said is quite clearly *.
He's not from JRef is he. |
So now you're gonna "rubbish" him too??
Hillarious! Maybe he's a dis-info agent eh? BWAHAHAHAHAH!
Better luck next time...hey,keep yer pecker up,... ya still have Danny Jowenko!
-z
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DeFecToR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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lol.
Geez Jay Lord. You really needed that eh?
Hey man, i've no problem admitting when something is nonsense. I haven't got the slightest clue about verifying his army record, so i leave that up to others. I was suspicious about some of what he said but obviously was hoping he was for real.
At least i wont be scurrying off when i'm proven wrong eh Jay Boy?
Eh hem...Israeli dancers anyone?
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chek
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | DeFecToR wrote: | I thought he might be on the level but some of what he said is quite clearly *.
He's not from JRef is he. |
So now you're gonna "rubbish" him too??
Hillarious! Maybe he's a dis-info agent eh? BWAHAHAHAHAH!
Better luck next time...hey,keep yer pecker up,... ya still have Danny Jowenko!
-z |
My oh my, quite the little self-congratulatory party, eh?
You win some, you lose some. 2 days ago nobody heard of this guy, and whatever his motives, 2 days from now he'll be forgotten.
Judging by the jubilation over here at the moment anybody would think a major plank of the 911 cover-up trail had just disintegrated.
You wish. |
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DaveyJ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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oh i dont know, i would describe this guy as a Major Plank
gedit
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chek
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| DaveyJ wrote: | oh i dont know, i would describe this guy as a Major Plank
gedit |
I get the general idea |
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chipmunk stew
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: | | DaveyJ wrote: | oh i dont know, i would describe this guy as a Major Plank
gedit |
I get the general idea |
There's probably a colonel of truth to it. |
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Jay Ref
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| DeFecToR wrote: |
lol.
Geez Jay Lord. You really needed that eh? |
No, you really needed him...and you still do. Re-read the title you picked for this thread. It's hyperbole, inflamatory, sensational....and it all turned to nonsense in a couple hours. You still need your whistleblower so you can use that thread title don't you? You have displayed your credulous double standard for the world to see. But don't despair, it's not just you. The entire troof movement needed this guy to be real so badly that not a damned one of them looked critically at his credentials.
This from a bunch of people who pride themselves on "not being fooled" by NIST, The 9/11 Comission, or the mass media. Funny that one guy with a crudely forged DD214 can accomplish so much against such a tough minded bunch of truthy skeptics eh?
| Quote: |
Hey man, i've no problem admitting when something is nonsense. |
When you admit the troof movement is nonsense I'll believe you.
| Quote: |
I haven't got the slightest clue about verifying his army record, so i leave that up to others. I was suspicious about some of what he said but obviously was hoping he was for real. |
Yeah the thread title says it all doesn't it? Why don't you get Ian to delete or edit this thing as he usually does when actual truth gets a little too embarrassing?
so you didn't know about his Army record? Why didn't you investigate? Ask questions? Check with someone who could verify it? Is it because you're only a skeptic when it suits your pre-judged conclusions? Here's a hint; that's not skepticism.
| Quote: |
At least i wont be scurrying off when i'm proven wrong eh Jay Boy?
Eh hem...Israeli dancers anyone? |
when have you ever "proven" a damned thing?
-z
PS: I like you DeFecToR...you're like the son I never had. You're a smart guy...so when are you gonna wise up?
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"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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