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stateofgrace
Moderate Poster
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:53 am Post subject: |
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I no longer post here. I find this forum dreadfully biased and intolerant of any alternative to already preconceived notions.
You have already determined your conclusion so I will not debate it, nor will I contest it.
You have also determined that members of JREF are shills and US Government supporters. This is incorrect.
Here is a post from, a well educated, non partisan member of this forum.
| Quote: | “Well this is supposed to be my 1,000th post, so here it goes...
9/11 - Press for the Truth
-------------------------
I just finished watching this documentary. It is a 9/11 film that follows the paths of the "Jersey Girls" as well as "independent researcher" Paul Thompson.
This film has been touted by almost all of the "9/11 Truth" movement as the "undebunkable" documentary for them, and that it is the ultimate film to represent their stance. Well if that is the case, than all I can say is that 90% of the people who claim to be a part of that "9/11 Truth" movement, are lying. Why do I say this. Not because the film is "debunkable", it maybe, but I do not have all the knowledge to debunk it myself. No, the reason I say they are lying is very simple. 90% of the people who we encounter at the various CT websites, the "Scholars" the "LTW Followers" the "Truth Trolls" push enormous amounts of conjecture, heresay, speculation, and downright wrong "evidence" that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the points made in this film. So any "truther" who says that this film is the best representation of what they "are about" is likely lying.
This movie does not, IN ANY WAY, make mention of, debate over, or even recognize, arguments concerning the "Controlled Demolition" or the "Missile into the Pentagon" or the "No Hijackers", or any of the hundreds of "Truth" conjectures/theories about 9/11. If you are about to watch the film expecting to find ANY of this in it, do not waste your time.
This film, I believe, is one of the more honest films, in terms of what really needs to be asked about 9/11. It begs questions on what role did "Pakistan" play in 9/11 funding. I do not claim to know, but I think that the american people are entitled to a well researched answer. It asks the questions concerning "What did the USG know about an impending attack on the US prior to 9/11" and I believe this is a question that should be answered. I believe, to a large degree, it has...if you know where to look for the info.
What this film does not do, is it does not implicate the USG in an "inside job", it does not say "Bush did it" it does not go into PNAC or any of the rediculous things we have been forced to debunk to keep the air clear in cyberspace.
I am still a full fledged debunker, don't get me wrong. I still believe the towers were brought down by Al-Qaeda Hijackers, in cohorts with OBL. I believe the Pentagon was hit by AA77, and I believe in the heroic efforts of the passengers of flight 93. What this film has done for me, is made me realize that the loons of the "truth" movement have distracted many of us from realizing that a part of their "movement" are legitimate people, with legitimate questions for their government. Now if the vast majority of their questions have been answered through the Commission report and all the other information out there, than fine, but if the victim families of the 9/11 attacks feel that the vast majority of their questions have gone unanswered, to their satisfaction, than I say they have a right to the answers.
My final thoughts are for those people that seek the "Truth" about 9/11, those that seek the "Real Truth". For those people I would say, clean your house. Get rid of all the useless junk scientists, the loony tunes, the wingnuts. Get rid of all the silly "theories" of "No Planes" and "Thermite", and "Cruise Missiles". Get rid of the LC lunatics. This, I know, would be a courageous thing to do, as the "Truth" movement owes alot of its publicity to their cockamame tall tales. Trust me though, in the end, if your cause is to win the hearts and minds of the american people, and reasonable people worldwide, you will have to keep the "Truth" house in order, and right now it is in such disarray, that it will only fade further, and further, until the world forgets there were even questions that have not been answered.
TAM" |
I know you will never accept this person’s point of view and I know you will b****** me for posting it. Fine, on you go.
Incidentally if any of you really wish to debate 911 and really wish to know the truth each and every one of you are welcome on this forum.
http://forums.randi.org/register.php?
This forum is populated with pilots, architects, engineers, academics and even a NASA scientist. Your call, simply slag it off or join it and learn the real truth.
Goodbye. |
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John White
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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This is a campaign dedicated to getting a new investigation of 9/11
It only showcases the limitations and preconceptions of critics that they cannot see the wood for the trees: that literally they obsesses about the "trees" of individual strands of perception and theory, and consistantly fail to see the bigger picture
Based on my conversations with people throughout this campaign, I am aware of no obstacle to building a general alliance on common ground: a thorough investigation of 9/11 that has the power and the resources to get at the facts
The different interpretations of the events surrounding 9/11 are simply questions that require answers: they are not tennets of faith or a dogmatic belief system. All that is required to dispel them is a credible explantion of events: however, these questions will not go away without such explanation
Regarding the quoted peice, I have no particular issue with any of the views, and see a great deal of common ground
The only aspect I do find regretable is that the peice demonstrates yet again the unfortunate niavety of the logically dominated mind
Namely the inability to percieve the role of the intelligence services in engineering evidance for and promoting ridiculous theories in order to tar genuine questions with the "tin foil hat" brush
To avoid the further spread of War and all its inhumanity, we must come together and be smarter: and we do that by getting justice for all those already slain
We get justice when we deal with Truth
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Free your Self and Free the World |
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Ignatz
Moderate Poster
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: Re: IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS........ |
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| Bongo Brian wrote: | Watch "911 Press for truth" and tell me that these families do not deserve to have their questions answered regarding the events of 9/11...
.....
I await your response.
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I'm awaiting responses from several people around here about their incorrect timings on the collapse of WTC7, just for starters.
Kick them into action and I'll watch your film. Fair do's eh? |
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TimmyG
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 489
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| stateofgrace wrote: | I no longer post here. I find this forum dreadfully biased and intolerant of any alternative to already preconceived notions.
You have already determined your conclusion so I will not debate it, nor will I contest it.
You have also determined that members of JREF are shills and US Government supporters. This is incorrect.
Here is a post from, a well educated, non partisan member of this forum.
| Quote: | “Well this is supposed to be my 1,000th post, so here it goes...
9/11 - Press for the Truth
-------------------------
I just finished watching this documentary. It is a 9/11 film that follows the paths of the "Jersey Girls" as well as "independent researcher" Paul Thompson.
This film has been touted by almost all of the "9/11 Truth" movement as the "undebunkable" documentary for them, and that it is the ultimate film to represent their stance. Well if that is the case, than all I can say is that 90% of the people who claim to be a part of that "9/11 Truth" movement, are lying. Why do I say this. Not because the film is "debunkable", it maybe, but I do not have all the knowledge to debunk it myself. No, the reason I say they are lying is very simple. 90% of the people who we encounter at the various CT websites, the "Scholars" the "LTW Followers" the "Truth Trolls" push enormous amounts of conjecture, heresay, speculation, and downright wrong "evidence" that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the points made in this film. So any "truther" who says that this film is the best representation of what they "are about" is likely lying.
This movie does not, IN ANY WAY, make mention of, debate over, or even recognize, arguments concerning the "Controlled Demolition" or the "Missile into the Pentagon" or the "No Hijackers", or any of the hundreds of "Truth" conjectures/theories about 9/11. If you are about to watch the film expecting to find ANY of this in it, do not waste your time.
This film, I believe, is one of the more honest films, in terms of what really needs to be asked about 9/11. It begs questions on what role did "Pakistan" play in 9/11 funding. I do not claim to know, but I think that the american people are entitled to a well researched answer. It asks the questions concerning "What did the USG know about an impending attack on the US prior to 9/11" and I believe this is a question that should be answered. I believe, to a large degree, it has...if you know where to look for the info.
What this film does not do, is it does not implicate the USG in an "inside job", it does not say "Bush did it" it does not go into PNAC or any of the rediculous things we have been forced to debunk to keep the air clear in cyberspace.
I am still a full fledged debunker, don't get me wrong. I still believe the towers were brought down by Al-Qaeda Hijackers, in cohorts with OBL. I believe the Pentagon was hit by AA77, and I believe in the heroic efforts of the passengers of flight 93. What this film has done for me, is made me realize that the loons of the "truth" movement have distracted many of us from realizing that a part of their "movement" are legitimate people, with legitimate questions for their government. Now if the vast majority of their questions have been answered through the Commission report and all the other information out there, than fine, but if the victim families of the 9/11 attacks feel that the vast majority of their questions have gone unanswered, to their satisfaction, than I say they have a right to the answers.
My final thoughts are for those people that seek the "Truth" about 9/11, those that seek the "Real Truth". For those people I would say, clean your house. Get rid of all the useless junk scientists, the loony tunes, the wingnuts. Get rid of all the silly "theories" of "No Planes" and "Thermite", and "Cruise Missiles". Get rid of the LC lunatics. This, I know, would be a courageous thing to do, as the "Truth" movement owes alot of its publicity to their cockamame tall tales. Trust me though, in the end, if your cause is to win the hearts and minds of the american people, and reasonable people worldwide, you will have to keep the "Truth" house in order, and right now it is in such disarray, that it will only fade further, and further, until the world forgets there were even questions that have not been answered.
TAM" |
I know you will never accept this person’s point of view and I know you will * me for posting it. Fine, on you go.
Incidentally if any of you really wish to debate 911 and really wish to know the truth each and every one of you are welcome on this forum.
http://forums.randi.org/register.php?
This forum is populated with pilots, architects, engineers, academics and even a NASA scientist. Your call, simply slag it off or join it and learn the real truth.
Goodbye. |
thats a fair point.
my only problem here is the assertion that the film '9/11 press for truth' is our self-proclaimed ultimate representation is somewhat assumptive. and whats more I can't help but feel that the underlying motivation in making this comment, is fuelled by the view that 9/11 is best left alone and not investigated further.
There are many crazy theories put forward by people in 'the movement', personally I strongly disagree with many of them. If your frustration at the existance of the 'truth movement' is simply that excessive speculation is abundant and is also discrediting the victims of 9/11 then I fully understand. From my point of view I wish the movement would seriously cut down on over confident conclusions formed on inconclusive evidence.. yes.
In many ways it's unfortunate that the first alternative 9/11 documentary of high quality production and wide public assessibility (Loose Change) has become a trademark of the 9/11 truth movement. It's unfortunate because it does contain heavy speculation and draws its conclusions very confidently, when much of the evidence it sites is inconclusive. Sadly this is part of the reason it has been so successful. People want answers, and loose change provides them in an exciting manner. However, in the process it brings to the viewers attention, many pieces of compelling evidence which are contradictory to the official story and were most likely not known to the viewer previously. On watching Loose Change you have a choice, you can take note of the evidence for yourself, do your own reaserch and form your own opinion, or you can let yourself become angry at the parts which draw conclusion over-confidently, accept the official story and decide to dismiss any investigation into the truth. While you're at it you can agressively ridicule anyone casting doubt on the official story.
In some ways though... I can't help but sympathize with even the more gung-ho theorists. American mainstream politicial culture has been promoting this attitude for years! Look at 9/11.. what have we got? the biggest terrorist attack on America in history. What did the whitehouse say? 'lets not investigate it, that would take valueable resources away from punishing the purpertrators'. Then they/we went and attacked Iraq with 9/11 as the pretext. Can you really blame people for having slightly over active imaginations when the whitehouse and our mainstream media are so trigger-happy?
Yes. theories about holograms, missiles hitting the pentagon, calls being faked, towers being demolished shouldn't go uncontended. But is it right people voicing these theories should be met with such aggressive ridicule?
| Quote: | What this film has done for me, is made me realize that the loons of the "truth" movement have distracted many of us from realizing that a part of their "movement" are legitimate people, with legitimate questions for their government. Now if the vast majority of their questions have been answered through the Commission report and all the other information out there, than fine, but if the victim families of the 9/11 attacks feel that the vast majority of their questions have gone unanswered, to their satisfaction, than I say they have a right to the answers.
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obsolutely, fair enough. the only divide I can see between myself and the poster of this quote is that they probably have more faith in establishment and government than I do.
_________________
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" |
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Roger the Horse
Moderate Poster
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Incidentally if any of you really wish to debate 911 and really wish to know the truth each and every one of you are welcome on this forum.
http://forums.randi.org/register.php?
This forum is populated with pilots, architects, engineers, academics and even a NASA scientist. Your call, simply slag it off or join it and learn the real truth.
Have just registered and look forward to learning the 'truth' stateofgrace.
Cheers!
_________________
Only sheep need a leader. |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger the Horse wrote: | Incidentally if any of you really wish to debate 911 and really wish to know the truth each and every one of you are welcome on this forum.
http://forums.randi.org/register.php?
This forum is populated with pilots, architects, engineers, academics and even a NASA scientist. Your call, simply slag it off or join it and learn the real truth.
Have just registered and look forward to learning the 'truth' stateofgrace.
Cheers! |
Prepare yourself. The real truth isn't nearly as fun as make-believe "truth". |
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Roger the Horse
Moderate Poster
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | Roger the Horse wrote: | Incidentally if any of you really wish to debate 911 and really wish to know the truth each and every one of you are welcome on this forum.
http://forums.randi.org/register.php?
This forum is populated with pilots, architects, engineers, academics and even a NASA scientist. Your call, simply slag it off or join it and learn the real truth.
Have just registered and look forward to learning the 'truth' stateofgrace.
Cheers! |
Prepare yourself. The real truth isn't nearly as fun as make-believe "truth". |
Erm. Yeah. Cos the thought that governments might use terrorism on their own people is a great laugh? We have so much fun. Also don't you think that 5 years on and non stop repetition of the official story might actually have exposed us to the 'truth'? I can only hope the rest of the people who use the site aren't as patronising as your good self.
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger the Horse wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: |
Prepare yourself. The real truth isn't nearly as fun as make-believe "truth". |
Erm. Yeah. Cos the thought that governments might use terrorism on their own people is a great laugh? We have so much fun. Also don't you think that 5 years on and non stop repetition of the official story might actually have exposed us to the 'truth'? I can only hope the rest of the people who use the site aren't as patronising as your good self. |
Yes, we've heard the argument many times that the CT belief must be real because, why would anyone WANT to believe something so disturbing?
If you think governments using terrorism against their own people is scary, consider a fiery place where you are sent to suffer indescribable torture for all eternity as punishment for minor infractions like watching "The DaVinci Code" on DVD. If you doubt that fundy Christians do not WANT to believe in Hell, then try suggesting to them that it doesn't exist, and see what reaction you get.
There are many, many reasons someone would WANT to embrace a belief system that is not all peaches and cream. Just to name a few:
1. You get to interact with like-minded people.
2. You get to feel superior to all the "sheeple" that don't subscribe to your belief system.
3. The thought of a monolithic, all-powerful authority controlling everything that happens, even if that authority has decidedly nasty qualities, is more comforting than the idea that most events are random.
4. You get to become an instant expert -- all those poor schmucks that wasted time and money on higher education are just stuck in an intellectual rut, whereas YOU can determine the truth by careful examination of info McNuggets shared amongst yourself and other believers.
The reason I advised you to prepare yourself before participating in the JREF forum is that the standards of evidence there are much higher. People there are less quick to accept anything you say simply because you have found a link to something on the internet that says it is so. |
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Ignatz
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Bongo Brian wrote: |
Second, it is not "tit for tat" (your beef with others on this site has nothing to do with me). If you are serious about contradicting my view that we require a further investigation then arm yourself with the relevant knowledge and watch the film.
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Fair enough. I have tomorrow afternoon off. I'll watch it then. |
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bratcat808
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Tiny rock in big water
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | Bongo Brian wrote: |
Second, it is not "tit for tat" (your beef with others on this site has nothing to do with me). If you are serious about contradicting my view that we require a further investigation then arm yourself with the relevant knowledge and watch the film.
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Fair enough. I have tomorrow afternoon off. I'll watch it then. |
I recommend "9/11 Mysteries" as well. (I have a copy, provided to me by http://www.sharethetruth.com I can upload if anybody is interested. I also have good video of David Griffin, a well respected theologian and scholar, as well published author, in which he carefully outlines the "myths" of the official story of 9/11. Very interesting.
_________________
9/11 Truth
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." T. Jefferson |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 1. You get to interact with like-minded people.
2. You get to feel superior to all the "sheeple" that don't subscribe to your belief system.
3. The thought of a monolithic, all-powerful authority controlling everything that happens, even if that authority has decidedly nasty qualities, is more comforting than the idea that most events are random.
4. You get to become an instant expert -- all those poor schmucks that wasted time and money on higher education are just stuck in an intellectual rut, whereas YOU can determine the truth by careful examination of info McNuggets shared amongst yourself and other believers |
1. Is irrelevant
2. 3. and 4. are utter fantasy, and like all projections, the reverse of what they appear. These meerly illustrate the prejudices and failings of the writer, especially the innate eltitism of 4. , where the writer clearly feels that a university education makes a person a superior human being
Or, in other terms, are utter b*******
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Free your Self and Free the World |
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Ignatz
Moderate Poster
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| bratcat808 wrote: |
I recommend "9/11 Mysteries" as well. (I have a copy, provided to me by http://www.sharethetruth.com I can upload if anybody is interested. I also have good video of David Griffin, a well respected theologian and scholar, as well published author, in which he carefully outlines the "myths" of the official story of 9/11. Very interesting. |
Thanks for the offer bratcat but I do believe I've seen all the mainstream CT vids a number of times. Unless those are very new.
But not "Press for Truth" |
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bratcat808
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Joined: 25 Sep 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Tiny rock in big water
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | bratcat808 wrote: |
I recommend "9/11 Mysteries" as well. (I have a copy, provided to me by http://www.sharethetruth.com I can upload if anybody is interested. I also have good video of David Griffin, a well respected theologian and scholar, as well published author, in which he carefully outlines the "myths" of the official story of 9/11. Very interesting. |
Thanks for the offer bratcat but I do believe I've seen all the mainstream CT vids a number of times. Unless those are very new.
But not "Press for Truth" |
9/11 Mysteries is fairly new, but can be found here as well:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
Press For Truth:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1016720641536424083&q=press+f or+truth
_________________
9/11 Truth
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." T. Jefferson |
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Roger the Horse
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Yes, we've heard the argument many times that the CT belief must be real because, why would anyone WANT to believe something so disturbing?
Erm. That has absolutely nothing to do with my conclusions about 911. I was actually responding to your suggestion that different beliefs about the subject were in some way 'fun'.
If you think governments using terrorism against their own people is scary, consider a fiery place where you are sent to suffer indescribable torture for all eternity as punishment for minor infractions like watching "The DaVinci Code" on DVD. If you doubt that fundy Christians do not WANT to believe in Hell, then try suggesting to them that it doesn't exist, and see what reaction you get.
Yes. The thought of governments using terrorism against their own population is scary and I'm sure some christians do want to believe in hell. Your point being?
There are many, many reasons someone would WANT to embrace a belief system that is not all peaches and cream. Just to name a few:
1. You get to interact with like-minded people.
For quite a few years I didn't get to interact with like minded people. In fact for a long time most people including my girlfriend thought I'd lost the plot. (I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that after looking at the evidence she doesn't anymore)
2. You get to feel superior to all the "sheeple" that don't subscribe to your belief system.
It was extremely difficult to feel superior to anyone when they all thought I'd lost the plot. I was actually overseas for a few years teaching English on 11/9/01 and in an extremely close knit group. A few of those people who gave me so much sh*t have since changed their minds.
3. The thought of a monolithic, all-powerful authority controlling everything that happens, even if that authority has decidedly nasty qualities, is more comforting than the idea that most events are random.
Who said anything about controlling all that happens? I am saying that elements within the Bush administration were responsible for the attacks on 911!
4. You get to become an instant expert -- all those poor schmucks that wasted time and money on higher education are just stuck in an intellectual rut, whereas YOU can determine the truth by careful examination of info McNuggets shared amongst yourself and other believers.
I am one of those poor schmucks who wasted time and money on higher education! And you don't get to become an instant expert. I would not consider myself an expert now and I've been looking at the events for 5 years.
The reason I advised you to prepare yourself before participating in the JREF forum is that the standards of evidence there are much higher. People there are less quick to accept anything you say simply because you have found a link to something on the internet that says it is so.
If you participate in a discussion forum such as this all sorts of ideas and 'evidence' will be presented by all manner of people. A lot of that evidence will be invalid. I have myself taken many wrong turns and mistakenly believed some stuff that has turned out to be false. The main thing is to investigate how credible and reliable the sources of info are and if stuff is dodgy then discard it and inform others of your findings. You mentioned christianity earlier so I'd just like to add something that I feel is relevant. About 12 years ago I became a born again christian after travelling round India for several months with a deeply religious friend. When I returned home I completely immersed myself in Christianity and read all I could on the subject, tried to live in the 'right' way etc and had the happiest and most content time of my life. However I didn't restrict myself to only reading stuff written by believers as I wanted to get as many perspectives as possible. During the course of my reading I found things that didn't add up so obviously read around those areas more and more to try to get as close to the truth as possible. I was absolutely gutted to come to the conclusion that I had been mistaken in my faith and so had to reassess my beliefs, which was an extremely difficult thing to do. If I was prepared to do that then do you really think that I haven't looked at the events of 911 from all angles? If I find conclusive evidence that I am wrong about the events of 911 then I am only too happy to change my beliefs. I am hardly going to believe everything I see on the internet simply because it says so!
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger the Horse wrote: | | If you participate in a discussion forum such as this all sorts of ideas and 'evidence' will be presented by all manner of people. A lot of that evidence will be invalid. I have myself taken many wrong turns and mistakenly believed some stuff that has turned out to be false. The main thing is to investigate how credible and reliable the sources of info are and if stuff is dodgy then discard it and inform others of your findings. You mentioned christianity earlier so I'd just like to add something that I feel is relevant. About 12 years ago I became a born again christian after travelling round India for several months with a deeply religious friend. When I returned home I completely immersed myself in Christianity and read all I could on the subject, tried to live in the 'right' way etc and had the happiest and most content time of my life. However I didn't restrict myself to only reading stuff written by believers as I wanted to get as many perspectives as possible. During the course of my reading I found things that didn't add up so obviously read around those areas more and more to try to get as close to the truth as possible. I was absolutely gutted to come to the conclusion that I had been mistaken in my faith and so had to reassess my beliefs, which was an extremely difficult thing to do. If I was prepared to do that then do you really think that I haven't looked at the events of 911 from all angles? If I find conclusive evidence that I am wrong about the events of 911 then I am only too happy to change my beliefs. I am hardly going to believe everything I see on the internet simply because it says so! |
Well, good for you. What do you think is the most compelling evidence that the Bush administration is responsible for the terrorist attacks? |
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Roger the Horse
Moderate Poster
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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If I had to go for one I'd probably say the the exploding 'squibs' as the towers were coming down.
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | | Quote: | 1. You get to interact with like-minded people.
2. You get to feel superior to all the "sheeple" that don't subscribe to your belief system.
3. The thought of a monolithic, all-powerful authority controlling everything that happens, even if that authority has decidedly nasty qualities, is more comforting than the idea that most events are random.
4. You get to become an instant expert -- all those poor schmucks that wasted time and money on higher education are just stuck in an intellectual rut, whereas YOU can determine the truth by careful examination of info McNuggets shared amongst yourself and other believers |
1. Is irrelevant
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How is it irrelevant? I think the proliferation of newsgroups, forums, and blogs on the Internet is proof that the need to find people that share your beliefs and to interact with them is a powerful incentive...if the proliferation of religion over the past few thousand years hadn't already convinced you of that.
| Quote: |
2. 3. and 4. are utter fantasy, and like all projections, the reverse of what they appear. |
Let's take a look at number 2 and 3:
If "truthers" DON'T feel superior to people who don't share their beliefs, then is the word "sheeple" intended to be a term of endearment?
As for people finding a malevolent authority more comforting than an enlightened chaos -- it's true I have no empirical data to support this, but it is an important human need to want structure; it's the way our brains are wired. Structure, both cultural and pragmatic, is one of the main reasons we have survived for so long.
Think of this: Why are people so much more afraid of terrorism than they are of something that is statistically more likely to happen to them, such as being killed by someone they know and love? It's the sheer randomness and unpredictability of terrorism that gives it power. People tend to prefer the devil they know.
| Quote: | These meerly illustrate the prejudices and failings of the writer, especially the innate eltitism of 4. , where the writer clearly feels that a university education makes a person a superior human being
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I never said anything about a degree making someone superior. I believe that the very idea of the relative "worth" of a person is meaningless, since it depends on how you define this worth. What I said is based on numerous conversations with "truthers" who automatically dismiss the testimony of experts because they don't trust them, or they assume these experts are government shills, or they are afraid to talk, or they simply doubt that any experts even said what is being attributed to them. To fill this void, they take it upon themselves to analyze video footage and come to their own conclusions. These conclusions are considered more valid than the testimony of experts.
Hence, we have many people out there that consider themselves a more reliable authority on structural engineering than structural engineers themselves, or better informed on avionics than pilots or aviation engineers, simply because they have looked at videos and come to their own conclusions.
While you can argue innate elitism in point number 4, what about the inane arrogance of these "truthers"?
And, more to the point, do you believe that the ONLY possible motivation for someone to believe something is that the evidence is overwhelming? |
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DaveyJ
Minor Poster
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 94
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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i wouldnt say that implicates the bush administration, its no more or less reason to suspect them or the australian parliment. It is however suspect, in fact i cant belive i havnt seen it metioned here before, concidering the amount of * that does. its google time
heres a good video demonstrating it
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=810314620078428385&q=squibs+ 9%2F11
though wouldnt we see the "squibs" before the towers starting falling, not after.
________
medical marijuana card
Last edited by DaveyJ on Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger the Horse wrote: | | If I had to go for one I'd probably say the the exploding 'squibs' as the towers were coming down. |
And does it bother you that these "squibs" exploded only AFTER the towers began to collapse?
Do you have a good reason to doubt that this was the result of the air inside the building being compressed and blown out through the path of least resistance? |
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | Roger the Horse wrote: | | If I had to go for one I'd probably say the the exploding 'squibs' as the towers were coming down. |
And does it bother you that these "squibs" exploded only AFTER the towers began to collapse?
Do you have a good reason to doubt that this was the result of the air inside the building being compressed and blown out through the path of least resistance? |
This is such a hackneyed piece of disinformation that turns up over and over again.
The so-called squibs jet out well below the zone of demolition - and there is no 'piston effect' because the concrete floors are being powderised in transit before they even get far enough.
Also the blasts are emitted centrally on each of the two visible faces (and likely also present on the unseen faces in the same spot). A bit too precise to be random air randomly evacuating.
Tell ya what - email section 5 and tell them to think up some more stuff quick - we're getting bored with their tired old non-reasons. |
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Roger the Horse
Moderate Poster
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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It doesn't bother me in the slightest to be honest aggle-rithm! Personally I reckon that the timing may have been off on some of the charges we can clearly see going off AS the tower is collapsing. I also find it a bit of a stretch of the imagination to say that what we can see is actually air being ejected out of the path of no resistance.
If you have a look at this link (actually from a 911 debunking site) I find it extremely difficult to believe that it is air causing this so far below where the actual 'collapse' is taking place. Surely it would have found another outlet further up and closer to the collapse?
http://www.debunking911.com/overp.htm
I assume you've seen the Naudiet Bros film with the footage of the firefighters saying it looked like a controlled demolition/ Just went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,/ charges etc?
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Ignatz
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Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger the Horse wrote: | I also find it a bit of a stretch of the imagination to say that what we can see is actually air being ejected out of the path of no resistance.
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So you've never stood on an underground platform waiting for a tube train then?
Do a little "thought experiment" Roger. Puff a load of smoke or fine dust inside an accordion and squeeze it. What do you see? |
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Roger the Horse
Moderate Poster
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Ignatz wrote: | | Roger the Horse wrote: | I also find it a bit of a stretch of the imagination to say that what we can see is actually air being ejected out of the path of no resistance.
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So you've never stood on an underground platform waiting for a tube train then?
Do a little "thought experiment" Roger. Puff a load of smoke or fine dust inside an accordion and squeeze it. What do you see? |
Yes. I have stood on an underground platform and fortunately up until now have managed to avoid being hit by large chunks of flying debris like the ones on the film. What I actually said was 'what we can see' ie on the clip. I haven't got an accordian handy but luckily have just enough imagination to grasp the concept you are referring to. I just don't believe that is what we are seeing!
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Roger the Horse
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 159
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, Ignatz and aggle-rithm. Have you seen the footage of the firefighters I asked about earlier?
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | John White wrote: | | Quote: | 1. You get to interact with like-minded people.
2. You get to feel superior to all the "sheeple" that don't subscribe to your belief system.
3. The thought of a monolithic, all-powerful authority controlling everything that happens, even if that authority has decidedly nasty qualities, is more comforting than the idea that most events are random.
4. You get to become an instant expert -- all those poor schmucks that wasted time and money on higher education are just stuck in an intellectual rut, whereas YOU can determine the truth by careful examination of info McNuggets shared amongst yourself and other believers |
1. Is irrelevant
2. 3. and 4. are utter fantasy, and like all projections, the reverse of what they appear. These meerly illustrate the prejudices and failings of the writer, especially the innate eltitism of 4. , where the writer clearly feels that a university education makes a person a superior human being
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How is it irrelevant? I think the proliferation of newsgroups, forums, and blogs on the Internet is proof that the need to find people that share your beliefs and to interact with them is a powerful incentive...if the proliferation of religion over the past few thousand years hadn't already convinced you of that. |
Of course its irrelevant, in that its not a point about 911 truthseekers any more than it is a point about any use of the internet for forums and blogs. Is there some point to stating the obvious? No, didnt think so
| Quote: | | Quote: |
2. 3. and 4. are utter fantasy, and like all projections, the reverse of what they appear. |
Let's take a look at number 2 and 3:
If "truthers" DON'T feel superior to people who don't share their beliefs, then is the word "sheeple" intended to be a term of endearment?
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I don't know, why are you using it?
| Quote: | | As for people finding a malevolent authority more comforting than an enlightened chaos -- it's true I have no empirical data to support this, |
You could just stop right there then
| Quote: | but it is an important human need to want structure; it's the way our brains are wired. Structure, both cultural and pragmatic, is one of the main reasons we have survived for so long.
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so again you are taking a statement of the obvious and trying to hang an analysis which is nothing more than your opinion and sound authorative over it. Sloppy and obviously ineffective
| Quote: | | Think of this: Why are people so much more afraid of terrorism than they are of something that is statistically more likely to happen to them, such as being killed by someone they know and love? It's the sheer randomness and unpredictability of terrorism that gives it power. People tend to prefer the devil they know. |
Gosh, how about the constant bombarment of fear messages from the mainstream media? If you cant factor in the psychological affects of social conditioning your reasoning is really "Ivory Tower"
| Quote: | | Quote: | These meerly illustrate the prejudices and failings of the writer, especially the innate eltitism of 4. , where the writer clearly feels that a university education makes a person a superior human being
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I never said anything about a degree making someone superior. |
Pull the other one
| Quote: | | all those poor schmucks that wasted time and money on higher education are just stuck in an intellectual rut, whereas YOU can determine the truth by careful examination of info McNuggets shared amongst yourself and other believers |
The meaning of your sarcasm is quite clear
| Quote: | | I believe that the very idea of the relative "worth" of a person is meaningless, since it depends on how you define this worth. What I said is based on numerous conversations with "truthers" who automatically dismiss the testimony of experts because they don't trust them, or they assume these experts are government shills, or they are afraid to talk, or they simply doubt that any experts even said what is being attributed to them. To fill this void, they take it upon themselves to analyze video footage and come to their own conclusions. These conclusions are considered more valid than the testimony of experts. |
Truth is a higher concept than any individual person. Whats true is true, no matter how many are mistaken or in error. Comments about individual people are not valid criticisms of the worth of a movement. I'm sure you wouldnt want me to judge the JREF forum soley on your performance, especially in this instance
| Quote: | | Hence, we have many people out there that consider themselves a more reliable authority on structural engineering than structural engineers themselves, or better informed on avionics than pilots or aviation engineers, simply because they have looked at videos and come to their own conclusions. |
You seem to have genuine issues about people thinking for themselves. Experts are a conflicted and prostituted lot in this world of spin, and a sane man must make up his own mind to be sure of acting ethically
| Quote: | | While you can argue innate elitism in point number 4, what about the inane arrogance of these "truthers" |
Ask yourself why you are percieving arrogance and what you can do to get past it and find common ground: its what any genuine communicator has to do
| Quote: | | And, more to the point, do you believe that the ONLY possible motivation for someone to believe something is that the evidence is overwhelming? |
A strange question. Gut instinct needs to be backed up by coroboration and critical thinking: critical thinking should not stifle creativity
Harmony is the key
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Free your Self and Free the World |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: | This is such a hackneyed piece of disinformation that turns up over and over again.
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Does coming up again and again make it invalid?
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The so-called squibs jet out well below the zone of demolition - and there is no 'piston effect' because the concrete floors are being powderised in transit before they even get far enough.
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How do you know?
| Quote: |
Also the blasts are emitted centrally on each of the two visible faces (and likely also present on the unseen faces in the same spot). A bit too precise to be random air randomly evacuating.
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The compressed air would follow the path of least resistance, which would be determined by the symmetrical structure of the building (it would follow elevator shafts, stairwells, hallways, etc.). I wouldn't expect it to be random at all.
Do you have any reason to believe it would be? |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Roger the Horse wrote: | | It doesn't bother me in the slightest to be honest aggle-rithm! Personally I reckon that the timing may have been off on some of the charges we can clearly see going off AS the tower is collapsing. |
So, the best evidence, in your opinion, of a 9/11 conspiracy, is a few blasts that were apparently mistimed charges, and the real charges, the ones that you believe actually brought down the building, do not show up at all in the video evidence?
| Quote: | I also find it a bit of a stretch of the imagination to say that what we can see is actually air being ejected out of the path of no resistance.
If you have a look at this link (actually from a 911 debunking site) I find it extremely difficult to believe that it is air causing this so far below where the actual 'collapse' is taking place. Surely it would have found another outlet further up and closer to the collapse?
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What would make you think this? If a spot close to the collapse is the one least resistance to compressed air, then you would see the escaping debris close to the collapse. If instead that spot is far away from the collapse, then THAT is where the air would go.
Watch a video of a balloon popping in slow motion. Does the balloon pop from the source of the compressed gas that's filling it up, or from the weakest point in the balloon (the part that's being pricked)?
| Quote: |
I assume you've seen the Naudiet Bros film with the footage of the firefighters saying it looked like a controlled demolition/ Just went boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,/ charges etc? |
I've seen that. To me that is far more consistent with the pancake theory of collapse than of controlled demolition -- the BOOMing sounds are the sounds of the individual floors collapsing on one another.
I've never seen a building implosion in which the charges went off AS IT WAS COLLAPSING -- it's always before. I've also never seen one in which the charges were timed to accelerate as the building went down (the BOOMs got closer and closer together until they just merged together into an undifferentiated roaring sound). That is much more consistent with an accelerating floor-by-floor collapse. |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: |
Of course its irrelevant, in that its not a point about 911 truthseekers any more than it is a point about any use of the internet for forums and blogs. Is there some point to stating the obvious? No, didnt think so
.................
A strange question. Gut instinct needs to be backed up by coroboration and critical thinking: critical thinking should not stifle creativity
Harmony is the key |
All right, let's not get bogged down here. I was trying to share my views about the psychology of belief, but perhaps I didn't explain it well. Try reading Micheal Shermer's "Why People Believe Weird Things". He does a much better job.
In the meantime, my central argument is this: Just because someone doesn't WANT to believe as they do, it does not mean their beliefs are true. |
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: | This is such a hackneyed piece of disinformation that turns up over and over again.
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Does coming up again and again make it invalid?
Yes it does. And boring.
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The so-called squibs jet out well below the zone of demolition - and there is no 'piston effect' because the concrete floors are being powderised in transit before they even get far enough.
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How do you know?
The voluminous upoward spouting cascades of concrete dust thick enough to lift a man off his feet is a fairly strong clue.
| Quote: |
Also the blasts are emitted centrally on each of the two visible faces (and likely also present on the unseen faces in the same spot). A bit too precise to be random air randomly evacuating.
|
The compressed air would follow the path of least resistance, which would be determined by the symmetrical structure of the building (it would follow elevator shafts, stairwells, hallways, etc.). I wouldn't expect it to be random at all.
Do you have any reason to believe it would be? |
I see, so it's all perfectly natural and above board in your estimation?
Those perfectly centred explosions far ahead of the destruction in an open floor plan building?
There IS no compression effect - the building is shredding on the way down. There is no container for the pressure wave.
But if that all happens when buildings fall on Planet Natural, then I hope you will be very happy with the world you are attempting to build there. |
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Ignatz
Moderate Poster
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Bongo Brian wrote: | EVERYONE... EVERYONE... STOP....
please stop for a minute, I appreciate that we all have different viewpoints on what the truth may be... which of the points are credible and which points are false.
This conversation is 'running away' from the initial reason I opened this thread. (Please refer to my first post). The issue here is whether the families of the victims have been provided with the answers they deserve. The issue is not about explosions, collapses or any of the other issues of debate between "CT'ists" and "Trolls".
Ignatz, have you managed to watch 911-Press For Truth yet? (I am actually going out tonight, but will post tomorrow... with a hangover probably ) I would also extend this offer to aggle-rithm, if you are interested.
Cheers all, |
(You have PM Bongo re the film)
And while Bongo is out getting rat-arsed I will heartily endorse his post, while I get slightly rat-arsed here at home.
It isn't about the usual hyped-up, sh#te, pointless, letting off steam for no (or sodding rare) gain to anybody. It's about what he says up there, and it's a very reasonable point indeed.
Have nice drink Bongo, I certainly will  |
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