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DaveyJ
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: Another Investigation |
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Okay, bascially, what it boils down to is, The Truth Movment, have no evidence or anything. Fact, its unfortunate but its true. Most will now even openly admit this, but they say, we cant prove it but somthing isnt right, what we are calling for is a reinvestigation. Which is fair enough, i havnt been shown these huge "whitewashes" in the NIST and commison reports, but people seem pretty sure they are there.
So what im saying is, do somthing about, you all have romantic quotes in your sigs about "in times of darkness, telling the truth is revolutionary", "the tide is changing, fight for justice" "you KNOW the truth" etc etc. Well why not be that person, why not be that revoultionary figure of truth and justice, be hailed as the person who led the intellectual revolution. ORGANISE A REINVESTIGATION
a lot of people quote the statistic that the one in 3 people in america dont belive the commision report, well get them all to chip in 1 dollar each, and youve got 100 million for funding. I doubt you would even need half that or a tenth to fund it, im sure with the amount of people out there, you could do it yourselves. If anyone else organises it, you guys will always reject the findings if they dont agree with yours. But if you do it, and find nothing, once and for all we cant leave peoples memorys in peace. If you do find the "truth" you are looking for, you will be freethinking heros.
whats stopping you
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silver surfer vaporizer
Last edited by DaveyJ on Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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aggle-rithm
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Or you can answer this simple question:
Who, SPECIFICALLY, do you expect to organize it?
If the answer is "I don't know", then perhaps the entire truth movement should re-examine its priorities. |
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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Additionally, which SPECIFIC questions should this new investigation investigate?
It's essential to come to a consensus on this. The population at large is not going to rally around vagueness and open-endedness.
What is the scope? Should they investigate only the most common questions (Why did Bush sit reading a children's book for almost ten minutes after the second plane hit?) or should they include even the most controversial stuff (What is that flash in that one video that looks like it happened just before the plane hit?) |
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MiniMauve
Moderate Poster
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Another Investigation |
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| DaveyJ wrote: | | Okay, bascially, what it boils down to is, The Truth Movment, have no evidence or anything. Fact, its unfortunate but its true. Most will now even openly admit this, but they say, we cant prove it but somthing isnt right, what we are calling for is a reinvestigation. Which is fair enough, i havnt been shown these huge "whitewashes" in the NIST and commison reports, but people seem pretty sure they are there. |
I find it so humourous that we go through this whole process of debate and discussion with points and counter-points and at the end of the day we still get people saying stuff like this. Just because you don't believe our points doesn't mean you can conclude that your side has settled the debate. You will never hear me say that the Truth Movement has 'proven' the infallability of their argument. You will hear me say that, given the inadequecy of the official theory and the official investigations/reports, a complete, independant, and transparant re-investigation is required.
| DaveyJ wrote: | | So what im saying is, do somthing about, you all have romantic quotes in your sigs about "in times of darkness, telling the truth is revolutionary", "the tide is changing, fight for justice" "you KNOW the truth" etc etc. Well why not be that person, why not be that revoultionary figure of truth and justice, be hailed as the person who led the intellectual revolution. ORGANISE A REINVESTIGATION |
I was under the impression this is exactly what IS happening. Support for finding the truth of 911 is growing and continues to grow. Unless this trend halts there WILL be another investigation if for no other reason than that the majority demands it. So, I'm not sure what your point is here.
As for your donation suggestion, it's certainly a good one though there are already means of donating to various funds dedicated to the truth of 911.
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Roger the Horse
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Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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' Just because you don't believe our points doesn't mean you can conclude that your side has settled the debate. You will never hear me say that the Truth Movement has 'proven' the infallability of their argument. You will hear me say that, given the inadequecy of the official theory and the official investigations/reports, a complete, independant, and transparant re-investigation is required.'
Very nicely put MiniMauve.
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DaveyJ
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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The longer you leave it the harder it will become, what your saying is if we sit about long enough, someone else will do it. They wont, it has to be here and it has to be now, otherwise it will never happen.
sorry i say you have no evidence beacuse i havnt seen any, but please provide me with a list or acculation of points. im struggling to find it anywere.
Id back a reinvesitagtion as much as anyone, i dont need it, but to gain any ground, the truth movment does
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Toyota Century
Last edited by DaveyJ on Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MiniMauve
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Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | Or you can answer this simple question:
Who, SPECIFICALLY, do you expect to organize it?
If the answer is "I don't know", then perhaps the entire truth movement should re-examine its priorities. |
There has to be a political will to do so, obviously. From my point of view, it's little different from the global warming crisis. Many groups have investigated it, devised remedies and called for governments to follow their recommendations but until the governments show the political will to do so, their is little more these environmental groups can do except continue to push for change. With the 911 truth movement it is more US-centric. Though it is a global movement, Amercian political will is what's needed. If current trends continue, at some point there will be the political will to support a re-investigation of 911.
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Stick to what you KNOW. All else is disinformation, intended or not. |
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MiniMauve
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Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| DaveyJ wrote: | | The longer you leave it the harder it will become, what your saying is if we sit about long enough, someone else will do it. They wont, it has to be here and it has to be now, otherwise it will never happen. |
I'm not sure I agree with your assumptions. Certainly, I'd rather it was sooner than later, but the reality is the Bush administration won't allow it to happen in the next two years. I doubt another republican administration would allow it to happen. If current trends continue I expect to see a democrat in office in 2009, but then again, I was surprised (and horrified) the american people elected Bush for a 2nd term.
| DaveyJ wrote: | | sorry i say you have no evidence beacuse i havnt seen any, but please provide me with a list or acculation of points. im struggling to find it anywere. |
Except when you say evidence, you are actually saying 'uncontested evidence', which there is none because debunkers contest everything. However, the same can be said for the official theory, so we have come to a crossroads and the fork I think we should take is a re-investigation to settle, once and for all, the truth.
| DaveyJ wrote: | | Id back a reinvesitagtion as much as anyone, i dont need it, but to gain any ground, the truth movment does |
It's good to hear we have some common ground. Cheers.
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DaveyJ
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Joined: 18 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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thats not a cross road, thats a T junction 
but you see thats the problem for me, there is no explanation, there are some usual events that could have a possible alternative explanation, but rather than one unifing explanation that brings it all together, they are just all strung together by a theory so they fit together, which as a whole makes absoutly no sense whatsoever, everything from motif for method is absurd. However, there i agree a couple things that are unusal, but i think the conclusions drawn on pure speculation have gone to far.
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M37
Last edited by DaveyJ on Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chipmunk stew
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 833
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| MiniMauve wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | Or you can answer this simple question:
Who, SPECIFICALLY, do you expect to organize it?
If the answer is "I don't know", then perhaps the entire truth movement should re-examine its priorities. |
There has to be a political will to do so, obviously. From my point of view, it's little different from the global warming crisis. Many groups have investigated it, devised remedies and called for governments to follow their recommendations but until the governments show the political will to do so, their is little more these environmental groups can do except continue to push for change. With the 911 truth movement it is more US-centric. Though it is a global movement, Amercian political will is what's needed. If current trends continue, at some point there will be the political will to support a re-investigation of 911. |
It's VERY different from the global warming crisis. The fact of global warming is backed by overwhelming scientific consensus. In this case, the lack of political will runs counter to the conclusions of the experts who have studied it.
In contrast, the official account of 9/11, rather than the various accounts put forth by the Truthiness movement, is the account that is backed by overwhelming scientific consensus.
If it's hard to gather the political will to do something that the overwhelming majority of experts believes needs to be done, imagine the task you have before you to gather the political will to do something that the overwhelming majority of experts believes is totally unnecessary! |
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aggle-rithm
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| MiniMauve wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | Or you can answer this simple question:
Who, SPECIFICALLY, do you expect to organize it?
If the answer is "I don't know", then perhaps the entire truth movement should re-examine its priorities. |
There has to be a political will to do so, obviously. From my point of view, it's little different from the global warming crisis. Many groups have investigated it, devised remedies and called for governments to follow their recommendations but until the governments show the political will to do so, their is little more these environmental groups can do except continue to push for change. With the 911 truth movement it is more US-centric. Though it is a global movement, Amercian political will is what's needed. If current trends continue, at some point there will be the political will to support a re-investigation of 911. |
A simple "I don't know" would suffice. |
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telecasterisation
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Posts: 1873
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | Additionally, which SPECIFIC questions should this new investigation investigate?
Should they investigate only the most common questions (Why did Bush sit reading a children's book for almost ten minutes after the second plane hit?) or should they include even the most controversial stuff (What is that flash in that one video that looks like it happened just before the plane hit?) |
Although this started as something of a somewhat convoluted thread, it now has the propensity to develop into something worthwhile.
The issue isn't one of gaining funds to pursue an enquiry/investigation, nor it is enough to simply turn up with a few chairs and an old wallpaper pasting table in a village hall somewhere. It is far far more complex.
Bush has clearly stated that anyone seen to be backing any conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 will be seen as supporting terrorists. With this in mind, moving to the place this debate needs to be taken is going to be far more difficult than simply 'having another investigation'. Government will vehemently resist another investigation and it may actually prove impossible to gain the necessary 'powers' needed to pursue the lines of enquiry that need to be opened.
Chipmunk has also posed the issue of what questions do you ask? I see it more of a 'who' not a 'what' issue. He says should we ask things like;
What is that flash in that one video that looks like it happened just before the plane hit?
Well, who are such questions to be asked of? Whoever it is, they will say 'How the hell do I know, I have no idea!'. Such questions are irrelevent, meaningless and will prove nothing.
Why did Bush sit for so long after being told?
He can say whatever he likes, he was shocked and wanted to compose himself, he was thinking about his response as President, he was asking himself why have the secret service not rushed in and carted him off the Air Force One? Again, this is all pointless and will prove nothing whatsoever.
This is the major major major problem we face and time after time I have had this debate. I had my own 9/11 room on WinMX and the same point was raised a couple of years ago - what do we have that proves conclusively that 9/11 was a setup? We had nothing then and things have not changed significantly, it would be one expert played off against another, an investigation of opinion.
We cite the freefall speed and it would be countered, the same with molten metal and DNA samples and lack of response and passports that magically appeared and whatever else. All would be explained away regardless of being true or not.
Could we convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt of anything?
Without forensic evidence and/or 'inside' whistleblowers who can substantiate they planted charges or remotely flew aircraft, at this time, unfortunately, I don't believe we could.
What would be interesting/useful would be to start a thread along the lines of, if you were running the investigation, list your top 10 or 20 questions, justify the benefits of each and knowing what counter arguments are out there, how would you get around the responses of experts called to shoot you down?
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I completely challenge the official version of events - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC -I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC |
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MiniMauve
Moderate Poster
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| DaveyJ wrote: | thats not a cross road, thats a T junction
but you see thats the problem for me, there is no explanation, there are some usual events that could have a possible alternative explanation, but rather than one unifing explanation that brings it all together, they are just all strung together by a theory so they fit together, which as a whole makes absoutly no sense whatsoever, everything from motif for method is absurd. However, there i agree a couple things that are unusal, but i think the conclusions drawn on pure speculation have gone to far. |
Well, you won't get me argueing that the Truth Movement shouldn't be more cohesive and stick to obvious problems in the official theory. I disagree with you about alternative explanations, though. If the Truth Movement attempts to answer the offical story with an alternative explanation of it's own, they will be making the same mistake the 911 commission made, i.e. attempting to explain 911 when they don't have enough evidence to come to any solid conclusions. That's exactly why a new investigation is required. We DON'T KNOW what happened with 911 and we are not in a position to be able to answer all the questions surrounding that day. Neither, apparantly, was the 911 Commission (or should we call it the 911 Omission?). Some of you debunkers may hate the Truth Movement but we are after the same thing as you - the full truth.
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MiniMauve
Moderate Poster
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| chipmunk stew wrote: | | MiniMauve wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | Or you can answer this simple question:
Who, SPECIFICALLY, do you expect to organize it?
If the answer is "I don't know", then perhaps the entire truth movement should re-examine its priorities. |
There has to be a political will to do so, obviously. From my point of view, it's little different from the global warming crisis. Many groups have investigated it, devised remedies and called for governments to follow their recommendations but until the governments show the political will to do so, their is little more these environmental groups can do except continue to push for change. With the 911 truth movement it is more US-centric. Though it is a global movement, Amercian political will is what's needed. If current trends continue, at some point there will be the political will to support a re-investigation of 911. |
It's VERY different from the global warming crisis. The fact of global warming is backed by overwhelming scientific consensus. In this case, the lack of political will runs counter to the conclusions of the experts who have studied it.
In contrast, the official account of 9/11, rather than the various accounts put forth by the Truthiness movement, is the account that is backed by overwhelming scientific consensus.
If it's hard to gather the political will to do something that the overwhelming majority of experts believes needs to be done, imagine the task you have before you to gather the political will to do something that the overwhelming majority of experts believes is totally unnecessary! |
I disagree. Most experts won't touch this issue. Is it because they are a silent majority that favour the official story or is it out of fear of career suicide or worse? Meanwhile we have experts on both sides argueing against each other. Why are official experts automatically correct but experts who aren't on a goverment payroll automatically incorrect?
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Stick to what you KNOW. All else is disinformation, intended or not. |
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MiniMauve
Moderate Poster
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | MiniMauve wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | Or you can answer this simple question:
Who, SPECIFICALLY, do you expect to organize it?
If the answer is "I don't know", then perhaps the entire truth movement should re-examine its priorities. |
There has to be a political will to do so, obviously. From my point of view, it's little different from the global warming crisis. Many groups have investigated it, devised remedies and called for governments to follow their recommendations but until the governments show the political will to do so, their is little more these environmental groups can do except continue to push for change. With the 911 truth movement it is more US-centric. Though it is a global movement, Amercian political will is what's needed. If current trends continue, at some point there will be the political will to support a re-investigation of 911. |
A simple "I don't know" would suffice. |
Well, it should suffice but, actually, it doesn't. We say, "we don't know, so we should conduct a real investigation". You say, "*, the 911 commission, though imperfect, is good enough.".
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Stick to what you KNOW. All else is disinformation, intended or not. |
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