In Denial

[Bowery Boy]

I see that the "Holocaust" debate has been "locked".
Why not lock the "no-planes" debate?
Why not stop all evidence-based argument and rely on conjecture, innuendo, insults, "what about the eye-witnesses" etc. etc. ?

[Ally]

[Bowery Boy]

[quote="Ally"][quote="Bowery Boy"]
Why not lock the "no-planes" debate?
Why not stop all evidence-based argument and rely on conjecture, innuendo, insults, "what about the eye-witnesses" etc. etc. ?[/quote]

why, do you believe arab maniacs flew planes into the WTC?[/quote]

It's irony, Ally : irony.

[Andrew Johnson]

People are getting jittery over it - I also think lots of people have to "Face the Evidence" too. Which is why it was locked rather than deleted.

However, the point I made is valid. It can be discussed elsewhere if people want to - also free.

[kbo234]

I deleted my post on the 'holohoax' thread because I can see that this issue, being so contentious, could possibly damage us on the 9/11 site (or rather, be used to damage us).

However, I feel very uncomfortable about this. It seems to me that there is a possible connection between the 'holocaust' and 9/11 and if we can be terrorised into not discussing the issue by people who say things like "I have no intention of watching the film" (i.e. I am not interested in any evidence) then there is something very unhealthy indeed going on here.

The 'holocaust', through propaganda, remains a holy writ in the public mind. I try to be a Christian and but can't help noticing that Christianity can be happily insulted and debased in the public arena almost without criticism. The sacrifice of 'the Jews' has displaced the sacrifice of Christ in our culture and who is to say that part of the consequences was not the empowerment of the Zionists who brought us 9/11, the Afghan and Iraq wars, eternal poisoning by depleted Uranium etc., etc.

The 'holocaust' might indeed be a true story (certainly huge numbers of ordinary Jewish people were persucuted and died. It was not the Zionist banking leadership that suffered. They exploited this cruel event. The question is did these powers at the top blow it up out of all proportion in order to serve their own strategic agenda).

I want to see someone establish the facts and the 'deniers' to have their say also. So far, it seems to me, the physical evidence undermines much of the official '6 million' story.

I am very sorry that it so hurts Jewish people to have raised this issue. It is not the intention of posters like myself to upset you. It is just that truth is more important than feelings and IF lies have been told about the holocaust then this matters, in fact the biggest victims of such lies would be Jews themsemselves. It seems to me that Jewish (not just Zionist) consciousness is founded on this story.

In the past Jewish people have led protest movements in the West (and East)....Vietnam War, civil rights etc..Regarding 9/11, however, Jewish people just can't seem to be able to face it....the issue is too tied up with Israel and the holocaust. This is a disaster for us all because if a body of Jewish people came across to our side we would surely win the battle.

[DeFecToR]

I myself felt pretty angry over the locking of the holocaust thread as i was just about ballsed up enough to comment on it.
Just out of interest is there any other subject on the face of the earth that is in any way conspiracy related that would also be locked in this manner? I very much doubt it. Yes it is the ultimate contentious issue but in historical research there should be NO sacred cows.

[blackcat]

It should be noted that the maker of that film was himself a Jew trying to make sense of the discrepancies he sees in the story of the "Holocaust". The word itself only appeared with a capital "H" in the last twenty years or so. Why? Who decided on this? In a world where hundreds of millions perished during WW2 why should "The" Holocaust apply only to Jews? It does not seem that a disproportionate number of Jews died in WW2 compared to Christians or Russians or Chinese or whoever you like to compare. What is it about Jews that makes their suffering so special? Why do we have a Holocaust memorial day in the UK when we have no equivalent for 20 million Russians who died at the hands of Hitler? Why no Holocaust memorial for Pol Pots estimated 10 million victims? There IS something which needs addressing here and that young Jewish man is brave to question history as we are fed it. Something is not right here.

[John White]

[graphicequaliser]

Millions of Jewish people were obviously held in holographic detention centres by "ignorant, servile scum" (Band of Brothers). Many were killed by holographic gas and ...

The holocaust was real - I have/had relatives with 1st-hand experience. All the written history in the world can misreport the holocaust as a fictitious non-event, but that still wouldn't sway me. When someone close to you relates part of their history, you can feel the truth in your bones (and genes in my case!).

When a load of strangers all report seeing something, and you only see their reports on the mass media, it is right to be suspicious, as in the "Pentalawn" fiasco at http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/pentalawn.html

[Bushwacker]

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

We are getting lots of posters saying that they had relatives who who killed or treated badly by the Nazis - and because of this the subject should not be discussed.

On this basis we cannot discuss 911 if someone had a relative killed in the twin towers.

Why cannot the subject be discussed purely on the evidence which contradicts the official story?

And why are we being made to feel guilty about discussing it?

For once I am agreeing with Blackcat

[ian neal]

[Bushwacker]

[marky 54]

remembering the holocaust shouldnt even be an issue. lots of people died and are remembered just like lots of soliders were killed and are remembered. the reason the holocaust is considered bad is because they took inncocent civillians and tried to make them extinct as a race, all the deaths in the wars are bad, but at least the soldiers were able to fight for their country and their familys, what chance did the jews have. they were killed just for being who they were with no chance to fight for their familys or what they believe in.

[ian neal]

[John White]

Oh! Fair point Ian

[brian]

We at least are only made to feel guilty about discussing it - as yet, in some countries such as Germany it is a crime. A crime which is termed "Holocaust denial" but is effectivelya ban on questioning what the truth of the matter is.

The reason I said "as yet" is that the BBC recently had a poll asking if Holocaust denial should be a crime in this country -

"The long-running BBC History Magazine poll posed the question: "Do you think holocaust denial should be made illegal in Britain?" Soon after it was targeted by Megaphone, the poll was pulled. The magazine declined to speak to The Register about the episode." -
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/09/06/giyus_megaphone/

"Megaphone itself is worth noting as a propaganda tool."

Amazing - the criminalisation of historical research is given respectability by the BBCs twisted use of language.

We have our own Glorification of Terrorism Act which can be widely interpreted by the unscrupulous to mean whatever they wish and the Bush mob have made it clear what they mean by similar acts -

White House Targets Conspiracy Theorists As Terrorist Recruiters

'Strategy for winning the war on terror' says world contaminated, corrupted by misinformation
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/september2006/070906terroristrecr uiters.htm

The criminalisation of those who question the Holocaust shows quite clearly the lengths that can be gone to to perpetuate our beliefs, false or otherwise. It is no great leap to criminalise those who give solace to terrorists by propogating "outrageous conspiracy theories".

The very fact that questioning anything is criminalised should raise a red flag.

As was noted in the documentary that started this and the link below I posted, those accused of Holocaust denial in Germany are not allowed to bring any evidence in their defence. An impossible situation for anyone no matter the charge yet it is the order of the day in supposedly civilised countries and raised as a matter for debate by the BBC.

Proof (concerning the Holocaust) not allowed by law in Germany! Defense of Ursula Haverbeck
http://www.australiafreepress.org/articles/ursula_haverbeck.htm

We are dealing with great power and "Great Masters of Lies" who use their power to ingrain those lies. It was Schopenhaeur who coined the phrase "Great Masters of Lies" - He referred this to the Jews but as has been said above, the majority of the Jewish people are as subject to the lies as everyone else. A look at the "Zionist role in the Holocaust" illustrates that well enough. As with "The Great Satan" we can all readily seperate the American people from their elite.

It seems to me the issue raises all sorts of connections to Sept 11 but I can see the problems it can cause to our objective. That said, better we stick to a fixed objective then than have ignorance and emotion dictate what we can or cannot discuss. That way we do their work.

[ian neal]

[suspecta]

[John White]

Damn fine post Suspecta. This place really needs a "clap" emoticon

Empathy is the friend of every Truthseeker

[ian neal]

Brian

That's a good post you made.

However as I try to explain on page 1, this issue essentially boils down to moderation principles for this site and not the right to freedom of expression more generally. I can't say I populate forums where holocaust revisionism is the focus of discussions, but I bet it is a fair assumption that most of these forums will themselves have limitations on what is and is not allowed to be discussed.

In part the guidance to "exclude discussion of holocaust revision, ascended masters, UFOs, 2012, numerology, lizards, moon landings and so forth unless a direct connection to 9/11 can be demonstrated" is intended maximise the appeal of the campaign and avoid the impression that in order to support it, you also need to accept holocaust revision, ascended masters, UFOs, 2012, numerology, lizards, moon landings and so forth.

[ian neal]

Just to echo John's thanks to you suspecta.

You hit so many of the issues on the head.

[kbo234]

Yes, thank you Suspecta.

I would like to apologise for making the insensitive statements it is so difficult to avoid when posting on these topics. I feel compelled to protest when issues are ruled 'out of bounds' but the truth is I do not really understand ordinary Jewish culture, feelings or experience. Thank you for your openness and honesty on the subject in your last long post.