Am I an enemy of 9/11 truth?

[iro]

hello flamesong - thanks for your detailed and revelatory post.

I will stick this forum out as the replies i have had are enormously positive. As a seasoned forum poster this hiccup was not a problem personally, but i started this thread to see if it was worth me spending my valuable time here i.e. does anyone care or are there too many talking heads here.

Pikey told me pm's were only for his inner sanctum when i pm-ed him once to try to leave a personal gesture to resolve our differences. I was rudely ignored like some kid at school who has the wrong haircut. It is for reasons like this that i will never be part of any 'group'. you can never take the ego and elitism out of any assembly of humans no matter who/what/where and i find it patronising and ugly.

Please stick around as i will, these people are not more important than 9/11 truth although they think they are. I am all for being attacked from all sides because i know it will help hone my own ideas and arguments.

I am heartened by the responses to this thread so far...why cant it always be as civil and constructive as this on here?

i feel ive seen the best and worst of this forum already.

[flamesong]

[Pikey]

dh states:-

[ian neal]

It is my hope that any differences can be resolved or atleast an 'agreement to disagree and move on' through an exchange of private emails or phone calls. I might be misreading this but at the heart of this there doesn't appear to be a lot of substance.

Peace and love

[flamesong]

Come on then, Steve!

And to re-iterate, my allegations are as follows:

That you refused to drop the missile pod theory as the leading piece of evidence - despite my protestations and contrary evidence which I presented to the Cumbria group (the Pavel Hlava video and the Barbarian Invasions clip) and that you should use David Ray Griffin's book, The New Pearl Harbor instead. You can deny this all you like (as you have done) but I have the e-mails to and from you which prove otherwise. In fact, whenever I have made any points which are at odds with your beliefs you have merely accused me of adopting a negative attitude - I have plenty of e-mails which support this.

That you proposed an ordinal membership numbers for members of the 9/11 Truth Campaign. Do you deny this, Steve?

That you regularly resort to challenging people to list their 'accomplishments' when you cannot debate them on facts and like to boast about your own 'good deeds'. The forum is littered with examples of this.

And that when all else fails you resort to professional fouls, usually in my case by private message, whilst imploring everybody else to play the ball and not the man.

To imply that people who were campaigning about 9/11 when you were still fast asleep are in fact trying to split the movement up is a joke. I stopped attending the Cumbria group after just a few meetings because I was at odds with your naive approach and credulity and I didn't want to create divisions by asserting the facts - and you have done nothing but try to make political gains from it.

You can make all the denials you like, Steve, because I have enough evidence to prove otherwise.

[paul wright]

Personally I regard Alf Flamesong and Steve Pikey as long time Allies and friends
Blessed be
Paul dh

[Pikey]

The title of this thread is the question "Am I an enemy of 911 truth" not "Am I an enemy of the 911 truth campaign (B&I)" which is a different question.

Does anyone on this website claim to know the truth of 911 I certainly dont however what I dont accept is the official conspiracy theory as contained in the Kean commission report due to the lack of evidence. Only those responsible know the whole truth of 911! I wish to know the truth and that is why I have signed the petition on the front page, as has I am delighted to declare so has Flamesong!

Now Flamesongs allegations:-

[Justin]

[iro]

pikey i started this thread to assess whether your actions and stance were representative of this movement. Over the course i have found out by comments both private and public on this thread that it is not.

I am not slandering you at all - merely highlighting examples of your comments to me which have been 'playing the man not the ball' in your odd language - in this case me.

I am genuinely sick of idiots like you (thats how you come across) who infest activist communities and believe they are right and valiantly pursue whatever is the prescribed goal without stopping for breath or thought.

Anyone who reads the threads you highlighted will see the debate is respectful and interesting until you pop up insulting me and telling me in summary to bog off and leave your holy war alone. Well i wont. I believe this issue (9/11) is too important to be ruined by single minded people.

If your beliefs are strong and all encompassing then they will stand up to scrutiny. If you think i have increased division on this forum then you are mad and blind - this forum is full of hate, arguments and spam and had been long before i first posted on it.

All i am trying to do is in my own mind establish the legitimacy and pragmatism of this campaign. All this talk of 'team players' and 'division' is very worryingly a reminder of how peoples valid concerns are brushed aside in an effort to root out dissent every day in the slavish society we live in.

[iro]

[flamesong]

I was drawn to this thread by its title because a month or so ago I was made to feel like an 'enemy of 9/11 truth' and an 'enemy of the 9/11 truth campaign' (to me to be one is to be the other) by several remarks made via private message by Pikey (aka Steve). During these exchanges he denied ever supporting the 'missile pod theory'. As far as I am concerned the 'missile pod' issue is dead but it concerns me that Steve feels the need to make such adamant denials that during the early meetings of the Cumbria group he strongly supported it (not, as you try to spin this, Steve, anything to do with the forum or the front page of this website). Incidentally, the issue was dropped from the second edit of 'In Plane Site' which was called 'In Plane Site: The Directors Cut' - the link on the front page - so your mention of it is completely superfluous.

This is a campaign for 9/11 truth, is it not?

As for personal attacks, I feel that the way he tries to intimidate people by asking what they have done to forward 9/11 truth is a subtle example. I actually feel a little uncomfortable listing my activities. But he has often responded to my posts (not blogs) and e-mails by alleging that I have a negative attitude - presumably because I do not agree with him. The latest example was when I said to certain posters who were discussing banner drops on motorway bridges. I suggested that the work involved might not be justified by the result, i.e. having done this in the past, my experience is that they take several hours to make and don't normally stay in place for more than one hour. I also said that it could be quite dangerous and that if one doesn't know what one is doing it could be dangerous to both the activist and the motorists below. I suggested that it might be better and safer to paint messages. It was implied by Steve that I was being negative. A heated PM discussion followed at the end of which I decided to take no further part in this forum (see the links to my blog which he has kindly posted). I was then alerted to the fact that having accused me of being negative for my motorway bannner drop posts, Steve gave the same cautions to somebody else who made similar suggestions.

When I looked back on the e-mails sent between us, the same allegations were frequently made to me about my concerns about the 'missile pod', the 'alien' nature of the Conspiracies Exhibition in Blackpool and just about any time when Steve's opinion has differed from mine.

Steve's assertion about ordinal membership numbers completely contradicts itself so I won't even bother to address it - he has been hoisted by his own petard!

Finally, I will bring up Steve's repeated accusations (both openly and via private message) that I have posted on this forum under the name spun. For the umpteenth (and hopefully last) time, I categorically deny this. Nor do I know who was responsible. The persitent allegations, for me, amount to intimidation. Might I suggest that the admin on here make some comparison of IP addresses used by spun and myself - and I can be exonerated from this slanderous accusation once and for all.

And thanks for chipping in, Justin. You didn't need to you know - just like you don't chip in when your friend flings false allegations everywhere accusing me of all kinds of ills! I am entitled to defend myself and if that means I have to cite historic evidence then so be it. I suspect, however, that the shít that Steve has been flinging has stuck and that hearts and minds have already been made up about me.

Your response that (in April 2005) we did not know what was the best evidence to show the general public is a direct contradiction of Steve's justification for the ordinal membership number proposal. My advice based on three years of prior involvement campaigning for 9/11 Truth (and many more as a political and environmental campaigner and in multimedia) was ignored at every level. Your assertion that I am one who never makes mistakes is rubbish. I gladly own up when I am wrong and I have frequently confessed to any such transgressions.

Steve, if you want to perpetuate this, carry on. Post all the correspondence between us. Sue me! I'll try to keep a straight face! I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of or embarassed about. My blogs which you posted links to are quite explicit in their expression of dismay that the issue of truth within this campaign is threatened by spureous theories which can only damage any prospect of truth - how does that make me an enemy of the truth? I also air my concerns about abusive messages and false allegations (some of which were made by you). Would you like me to roll over, Steve? Or can I be permitted to prove that they are malicious and wrong? As you are behind some of them, Steve, I guess you would like me to keep quiet and go away!

I have an archive of everything I have sent or received too, though mine was incidental. Perhaps you even have recordings of the phone calls you made accusing me of being spun!

[flamesong]

Apart from the stuff which has already been mentioned, I have just become aware of another act of deception regarding me which has been perpetrated by you, Steve.

I was just going back through the threads in which you had a go at iro and noticed that you had posted a list of the top 20 posters on this forum (although you still insist on calling them bloggers - in spite of my attempts to politely correct you):

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3974

My current number of posts is 301 (302 if you include this one) and in the last two days I have made six posts (seven with this one). Prior to these I had not made a post since 20th August. Check for yourself:

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/search.php?search_author=Flamesong

So on the day on which the figures were collected, 13th September (and every day between 20th August and 4th October), my total would have been 295 and according to your Top 20, I should have been number 18.

It isn't that I am in the slightest bit bothered about being part of your statistics - as somebody followed up, they are meaningless. Anybody can make a two word grunt and click up another post and some people like Keith in Perth make occasional - but huge and excellent - contributions. And having posted your findings you were forced to concede that it is quality not quantity which is important.

But given how easy it is to access these figures - it is a simple matter of selecting to view the membership list in order of posts - it is an inescapable conclusion that my figures must have been omitted intentionally. §§§

[ian neal]

Earlier in this thread iro makes some good comments about posting style and how this forum can appear to new posters. Since then the thread has deteriorated into a squabble with some very old and to my mind irrelevent history about the early origins of the cumbria group, that to my understanding boil down to no more than personality clashes.

Alf you are welcome to your opinion

Iro, you are welcome to your opinion.

Steve you are welcome to your opinion

But my very very strong advice is to try to resolve these differences in private or just leave them and move on. Life is too short for this IMO. My opinion is that you are not 'an enemy of 9/11 truth', iro

[flamesong]

Ian, if you think that my posts are about whether or not Steve believes in the 'missile pod' theory you are mistaken. My point is that Steve has persistently countered my (and other people's) position whenever I have disagreed with him by either accusing me of having a negative attitude or challenging me (and others) to a 'what have you done for the movement' duel. Once he has completed his attack he blithely takes up the position he has been attacking as his own like some kind of trophy. His mantra about playing the man not the ball seems to apply to everybody but him.

I am not going to be drawn into a bragging match about what I have done for the movement - anybody who has known me over the past five years (and many years before) will know that I do not need to justify myself.

And I am sick to death of being accused of having posted as spun. I have administered my own phpBB forum and I know that posters have their IP addresses logged - it is an integral part of the software. If Steve cannot find the humility to withdraw this annoying ongoing slander, I would like this to constitute a formal request that these IP addresses be analysed so that my name be cleared of this malicious accusation.

Your suggestion to deal with this in private is admirable but it demonstrates that you have not been on the receiving end or had to attempt to settle a difference of opinion with somebody of this intellect.

There are a lot of well informed intelligent people campaigning for 9/11 truth but if this is the benchmark for discussion on here then I fear that this part of any campaign for truth will find itself in a tailspin.

[iro]

[ian neal]

[Pikey]

[iro]

pikey, i have no idea what your post above is aimed at or what you are on about. if you are comparing me to george bush then that is incredibly distasteful.

im prepared to live and let live and move on. However I will never be bullied off having a different opinion and that will never change. So please refrain from telling me im not welcome here in the future as it's not your place to say who is and isn't welcome here.

digital handshake?

my hand is extended if you wish to oblige

[Pikey]

iro states

[iro]

consider it a handshake then! glad thats over! and no no funny ones!!

the root of all this was you misinterpreting my critical nature as destructive. i will always be critical of anything i feel the need, that is not a disrespectful move, quite to the contrary. If i didn't care id not bother at all and just move on and ignore. This was never an intended personal attack - i just used your advances towards me as examples of a certain kind of 'exclusion' attitude here that i did not appreciate. Bullying is a strong term... if i used that term it was out of context, sorry, but the attitude directed towards me was not a positive one since you seem so dedicated to positivity maybe you should examine that.

No movement or organisation or idea can thrive unhindered if everyone is just self congratulatory and non critical. The goals of this movement are in my opinion misguided - i have not changed my mind in that, but i am not disrespecting anyone pikey. I believe it is constructive to challenge. If i was just saying 'you guys suck' then i'd be being negative - instead i am voicing an opinion and qualifying that opinion in detail. I cannot stand singluar thinking at the expense of all other possibility. There is a difference between focus and exclusion of valid possibility.

As long as we are clear on that we will get along swimmingly from now on as we both want the same thing - the truth of this event to be exposed in the correct way.

If it really bugs you so much that i have not signed the petition then i cannot do much more than to say why does it mean so much to you that i sign it baring in mind my thoughts as expressed already?

Cheers Steve - looking forward from here on in.

[Pikey]

iro states

[Pikey]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury and moderators providing proof if you are going to smear someone is surely wise?

Flamesong(FS), known as Alf Megson makes several unfounded allegations and personal insults against me on this thread which are a travesty of truth and as Ian Neal correctly states there appears to be no substance. I have requested evidence to these allegations but none has been forthcoming.

On this thread (http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=18247&highlight=#18 247) FS states "Whilst I could never defend everything that David Icke says, I cannot - as a truth seeker - stand by and watch anybody being lied about, whether I agree with them or not. The truth may not be what you want it to be!"

This is what FS states on this thread:-

[Abandoned Ego]

Well Alf ?

To be honest, I have actually failed to see you make a single positive contribution to this forum.

Every post Ive seen of yours has been negative or condescending.

Hardly the actions of someone committed to a truth movement that should bury its differences and understand that we all have one thing in common - Namely that we know the OCT is bullcrap.

I also note, you have an uncanny ability to avoid providing too much solid proof of any of your claims and assertions, such as the"Well Debunked Pod theory".

Not that I personally place virtually any emphasis on this personally.

But, that said, what ARE those flashes Alf ? Help me please, because I havent seen a rational explanation (the most rational so far being doctored footage of each of the 4 angle shots - A whole new conspiracy theory in itself, wouldnt you say ? )

Hypocrisy is a terrible disease IMO.

[Pikey]

Ladies & gentleman of the jury and moderators now check out the evidence and pick out those viscious attacks, the abuse and insults from me and my instant dislike to FS; pms and e mail messages exchanged in chronological order:-

[paul wright]

Knock it off boys
Much respect to you but nobody really cares
Settle your differences in private
We really dont need to know the needle to thread of your personal affronts
I'd have thought better of you
Get back to the real stuff and quit the Jeremy Kyle impersonations

[Pikey]

I note that FS has changed his profile again, the amendments being "Gone solo" has now gone chinese and his location "departed" has been superceded.

Last but not least Ladies & gentlemen of the jury check out this if you want to see what IMO is a definition a viscious attack, playing the man rather than the ball, this thread was started by someone blogging (er sorry FS "posting") for the first time:-

from this thread:- http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=18325&highlight=#183 25

[lostpomme]

Hear hear DH.
I wonder how else all this energy might have been better expended...
Most of us are here in the hope that we can make a difference; petty infighting and ego wars only serve as (apparently effective) distraction.

[John White]

[iro]

agreed john and DH. this thread arose out of a particular situation that i wanted clarified and resolved - both have now been achieved so why drag it onwards pikey?

this is not a court and there is no jury here. If you are really above reproach and known as such by the community here why are you going to such extraordinary lengths to prove yourself?