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Disco_Destroyer
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 6342
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 Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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What no collapse? no wonder this is the only image I found on Google!
http://egyptelection.com/content/view/611/35/
US Baseball Player Dies in New York Plane Crash
Investigators combed through debris inside a luxury high-rise apartment Thursday for clues to why a small airplane with New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle aboard slammed into the building, killing the pitcher and a flight instructor.
National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman said federal investigators arrived Wednesday evening and found debris scattered everywhere.
Aircraft parts and headsets were on the ground. The propeller broke apart from the engine, which landed on the floor of an apartment. The bodies fell to the street.
"There's a significant amount of damage," Hersman told CNN Thursday morning.
She said investigators were taking fuel samples, looking at maintenance records and examining Lidle's flight log book, found in the wreckage — "anything that will give us a clue about what happened."
Lidle talked often of his love of flying, describing it his escape from the stress of professional baseball and a way to see the world in a different light.
"No matter what's going on in your life, when you get up in that plane, everything's gone," Lidle told an interviewer with Comcast Sportsnet out of Philadelphia while flying his plane in April.
Lidle boarded the same single-engine plane Wednesday afternoon with an instructor for what was supposed to be a leisurely flight around New York City. They took off from a suburban New Jersey airport, circled around the Statue of Liberty, flew past lower Manhattan and north above the East River.
But something went wrong just moments after passing above the 59th Street Bridge. The plane smashed into a luxury high-rise condominium building on the Upper East Side, killing Lidle and the other passenger and showering fiery debris on the sidewalk and street below, officials said.
The crash briefly raised fears of another terrorist attack in this scarred city.
"It was very scary," said Diane Tarantini, who was sitting in an outdoor courtyard across the street when she heard a loud boom and saw a big fireball that reminded her of Sept. 11. "It brings back all these memories about planes hitting buildings, the terror of that day in September."
Lidle's passport was found on the street, according to a federal official, speaking to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. It was not immediately clear who was at the controls or who was the second person aboard. There was no official confirmation of Lidle's death from city officials, who still needed to identify the bodies.
A federal official, speaking on condition of anonymity, had said that authorities had a report that the plane sent a distress call to the Federal Aviation Administration before the crash.
But Hersman said at a late-night news conference that, "we've asked the FAA and they have reviewed some aircraft-control tapes. At this point they have no indication that there was a mayday call."
The flight lasted about 20 minutes, with a 911 call about a fire coming in around 2:45 p.m.
The Cirrus SR20 was manufactured in 2002 and purchased earlier this year, Hersman said. The small aircraft has four seats and is equipped with a parachute designed to let it float to earth in case of a mishap. The parachute apparently did not engage after the crash.
NTSB records indicate a total of 12 accidents involving the Cirrus SR20, first flown as a prototype in 1995. In two accidents this year, pilots reported engines losing power.
The plane that crashed Wednesday was registered to Lidle, FAA records show.
Lidle had repeatedly assured reporters in recent weeks that flying was safe and that the Yankees — who were traumatized in 1979 when catcher Thurman Munson was killed in the crash of a plane he was piloting — had no reason to worry.
His teammates were stunned at the news of the crash.
"Right now, I am really in a state of shock," Jason Giambi said in a statement. "I have known Cory and his wife Melanie for over 18 years and watched his son grow up. We played high school ball together and have remained close throughout our careers. We were excited to be reunited in New York this year and I am just devastated to hear this news."
On Sunday, the day after the Yankees were eliminated from the playoffs, Lidle cleaned out his locker at Yankee Stadium and said he planned to fly back to California, making a few stops. Lidle had reserved a room for Wednesday night at the historic Union Station hotel in downtown Nashville, Tenn., hotel spokeswoman Melanie Fly said.
Family and friends converged on Lidle's home in the Los Angeles suburb of Glendora, Calif., where he and his family moved about six years ago.
"This is a tragedy for everybody involved," said his mother-in-law Mary Varela, her eyes welling with tears.
Lidle's twin brother, Kevin, told CNN's "Larry King Live" the family was having a tough time.
"But what can you do? Somehow you hang in there and you get through it," he said. "I've had a lot of calls from friends and family, people calling and crying. And they've released some emotions, and I haven't done that yet. I don't know — I guess I'm in some kind of state of shock."
Lidle pitched with the Phillies before coming to the Yankees. He began his career in 1997 with the Mets and also pitched for Tampa Bay, Oakland, Toronto and Cincinnati.
Wednesday afternoon, his plane came through a hazy, cloudy sky and slammed into apartments that were 30 and 31 flights above the street, but the floors are numbered at 40 and 41, and go up to 50, even though the building is technically about 40 stories high.
The crash touched off a raging fire that cast a pillar of black smoke over the city and sent flames shooting from four windows on two adjoining floors. Firefighters put the blaze out in less than an hour.
At least 21 people were taken to hospitals, most of them firefighters. Their conditions were not disclosed.
Dr. Parviz Benhuri said his wife, Ilana, was home when the plane hit their window, breaking the glass and spewing flames.
"She told me she saw the window coming out and she ran. She's in shock. She's lucky she made it. It's a miracle," he told The New York Times.
Large crowds gathered in the street in the largely wealthy New York neighborhood, with many people in tears and some trying to reach loved ones by cell phone. Rain started pouring at around 4 p.m., and people gazed up at the smoke and fire as they covered their heads with plastic bags; earlier, parts of the plane fell to the ground.
"I just saw something come across the sky and crash into that building," said Young May Cha, 23, a medical student who was walking along 72nd Street. "There was fire, debris ... The explosion was very small."
The military scrambled fighter jets over New York and other major cities immediately after the crash. Adm. Timothy Keating, commander of U.S. Northern Command, told The Associated Press military officials knew it likely wasn't a terrorist act "about a half an hour after it happened."
"My first reaction when I saw an airplane going into a building in New York City was, 'Oh no, we've got another 9/11,'" he said.
Mystery writer Carol Higgins Clark, daughter of author Mary Higgins Clark, lives on the 38th floor of the building and was coming home in a cab when she saw the smoke. She described the building's residents as a mix of doctors, lawyers and writers, and people with second homes.
By NAHAL TOOSI, Associated Press Writer
Thought I'd better get this in before its gone for good 
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!'
“The more you tighten your grip, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers.”
www.myspace.com/disco_destroyer |
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jsut_peopel
Minor Poster
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: |
What no collapse? no wonder this is the only image I found on Google!
http://egyptelection.com/content/view/611/35/
US Baseball Player Dies in New York Plane Crash
Investigators combed through debris inside a luxury high-rise apartment Thursday for clues to why a small airplane with New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle aboard slammed into the building, killing the pitcher and a flight instructor.
National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman said federal investigators arrived Wednesday evening and found debris scattered everywhere.
Aircraft parts and headsets were on the ground. The propeller broke apart from the engine, which landed on the floor of an apartment. The bodies fell to the street.
"There's a significant amount of damage," Hersman told CNN Thursday morning.
She said investigators were taking fuel samples, looking at maintenance records and examining Lidle's flight log book, found in the wreckage — "anything that will give us a clue about what happened."
Lidle talked often of his love of flying, describing it his escape from the stress of professional baseball and a way to see the world in a different light.
"No matter what's going on in your life, when you get up in that plane, everything's gone," Lidle told an interviewer with Comcast Sportsnet out of Philadelphia while flying his plane in April.
Lidle boarded the same single-engine plane Wednesday afternoon with an instructor for what was supposed to be a leisurely flight around New York City. They took off from a suburban New Jersey airport, circled around the Statue of Liberty, flew past lower Manhattan and north above the East River.
But something went wrong just moments after passing above the 59th Street Bridge. The plane smashed into a luxury high-rise condominium building on the Upper East Side, killing Lidle and the other passenger and showering fiery debris on the sidewalk and street below, officials said.
The crash briefly raised fears of another terrorist attack in this scarred city.
"It was very scary," said Diane Tarantini, who was sitting in an outdoor courtyard across the street when she heard a loud boom and saw a big fireball that reminded her of Sept. 11. "It brings back all these memories about planes hitting buildings, the terror of that day in September."
Lidle's passport was found on the street, according to a federal official, speaking to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. It was not immediately clear who was at the controls or who was the second person aboard. There was no official confirmation of Lidle's death from city officials, who still needed to identify the bodies.
A federal official, speaking on condition of anonymity, had said that authorities had a report that the plane sent a distress call to the Federal Aviation Administration before the crash.
But Hersman said at a late-night news conference that, "we've asked the FAA and they have reviewed some aircraft-control tapes. At this point they have no indication that there was a mayday call."
The flight lasted about 20 minutes, with a 911 call about a fire coming in around 2:45 p.m.
The Cirrus SR20 was manufactured in 2002 and purchased earlier this year, Hersman said. The small aircraft has four seats and is equipped with a parachute designed to let it float to earth in case of a mishap. The parachute apparently did not engage after the crash.
NTSB records indicate a total of 12 accidents involving the Cirrus SR20, first flown as a prototype in 1995. In two accidents this year, pilots reported engines losing power.
The plane that crashed Wednesday was registered to Lidle, FAA records show.
Lidle had repeatedly assured reporters in recent weeks that flying was safe and that the Yankees — who were traumatized in 1979 when catcher Thurman Munson was killed in the crash of a plane he was piloting — had no reason to worry.
His teammates were stunned at the news of the crash.
"Right now, I am really in a state of shock," Jason Giambi said in a statement. "I have known Cory and his wife Melanie for over 18 years and watched his son grow up. We played high school ball together and have remained close throughout our careers. We were excited to be reunited in New York this year and I am just devastated to hear this news."
On Sunday, the day after the Yankees were eliminated from the playoffs, Lidle cleaned out his locker at Yankee Stadium and said he planned to fly back to California, making a few stops. Lidle had reserved a room for Wednesday night at the historic Union Station hotel in downtown Nashville, Tenn., hotel spokeswoman Melanie Fly said.
Family and friends converged on Lidle's home in the Los Angeles suburb of Glendora, Calif., where he and his family moved about six years ago.
"This is a tragedy for everybody involved," said his mother-in-law Mary Varela, her eyes welling with tears.
Lidle's twin brother, Kevin, told CNN's "Larry King Live" the family was having a tough time.
"But what can you do? Somehow you hang in there and you get through it," he said. "I've had a lot of calls from friends and family, people calling and crying. And they've released some emotions, and I haven't done that yet. I don't know — I guess I'm in some kind of state of shock."
Lidle pitched with the Phillies before coming to the Yankees. He began his career in 1997 with the Mets and also pitched for Tampa Bay, Oakland, Toronto and Cincinnati.
Wednesday afternoon, his plane came through a hazy, cloudy sky and slammed into apartments that were 30 and 31 flights above the street, but the floors are numbered at 40 and 41, and go up to 50, even though the building is technically about 40 stories high.
The crash touched off a raging fire that cast a pillar of black smoke over the city and sent flames shooting from four windows on two adjoining floors. Firefighters put the blaze out in less than an hour.
At least 21 people were taken to hospitals, most of them firefighters. Their conditions were not disclosed.
Dr. Parviz Benhuri said his wife, Ilana, was home when the plane hit their window, breaking the glass and spewing flames.
"She told me she saw the window coming out and she ran. She's in shock. She's lucky she made it. It's a miracle," he told The New York Times.
Large crowds gathered in the street in the largely wealthy New York neighborhood, with many people in tears and some trying to reach loved ones by cell phone. Rain started pouring at around 4 p.m., and people gazed up at the smoke and fire as they covered their heads with plastic bags; earlier, parts of the plane fell to the ground.
"I just saw something come across the sky and crash into that building," said Young May Cha, 23, a medical student who was walking along 72nd Street. "There was fire, debris ... The explosion was very small."
The military scrambled fighter jets over New York and other major cities immediately after the crash. Adm. Timothy Keating, commander of U.S. Northern Command, told The Associated Press military officials knew it likely wasn't a terrorist act "about a half an hour after it happened."
"My first reaction when I saw an airplane going into a building in New York City was, 'Oh no, we've got another 9/11,'" he said.
Mystery writer Carol Higgins Clark, daughter of author Mary Higgins Clark, lives on the 38th floor of the building and was coming home in a cab when she saw the smoke. She described the building's residents as a mix of doctors, lawyers and writers, and people with second homes.
By NAHAL TOOSI, Associated Press Writer
Thought I'd better get this in before its gone for good :roll: |
I'm sorry, I don't see what your point is. Are you seriously suggesting that the impact of a 4 seater plane, is of the same magnitude as that of a 767?
Or umm...what? |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | and when you prove that building foundations exist on the 100 or so floor we'll be waiting  See I don't even need to know the exact floor number to know no plane destroyed the buiding foundations! |
Who has claimed that the foundation is on the 100th floor?
Anyway, since the portion of the building above the initial damage was larger than the entire mass of most buildings, it was more than enough to overcome the integrity of the remaining structure underneath. |
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Disco_Destroyer
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 6342
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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OK so there are more if you search Manhattan Plane Crash
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!'
“The more you tighten your grip, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers.”
www.myspace.com/disco_destroyer |
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Disco_Destroyer
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 6342
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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jsut_peopel my point would be small building-small plane//large building-large plane 
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!'
“The more you tighten your grip, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers.”
www.myspace.com/disco_destroyer |
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Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster
Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | jsut_peopel my point would be small building-small plane//large building-large plane |
Hahaha. That's some science for you.
How about calculating how much energy each plane had when it hit? If you can't do the math, wanna take a stab at how many times more energy the 767s had? 10x? 100x? 1000x? |
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Ignatz
Moderate Poster
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | jsut_peopel my point would be small building-small plane//large building-large plane |
So a swarm of mosquitoes will cut a swathe through a field of wheat then?
Everyday experience alone should prevent you making the statement you have made above, without even resorting to science.
_________________
So remember - next time you can't find a parking spot, go to plan B: blow up your car |
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jsut_peopel
Minor Poster
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | jsut_peopel my point would be small building-small plane//large building-large plane :o |
Oh, that's not really any better you know. |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | jsut_peopel my point would be small building-small plane//large building-large plane |
This is the sort of sloppy thinking that drives the "truth" movement.
Let's look at some of the differences here:
1. If the plane was ten times lighter than a fully-fueled 767 and moving five times slower (conservative estimates here), its momentum when it hit the building would be 50 times less.
2. The plane was much smaller in relation to the apartment building than the 767's were to the WTC towers, therefore did less structural damage.
3. The fire department was able to put the fire out within an hour of the incident.
4. The building was a very different design than the WTC towers.
And so on, and so on.
These are the types of things you need to look into if you REALLY want to know the truth, and aren't just playing games. |
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Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: |
Here's a few pics of non CD building collapses to get you started while you improve your ludicrous time wasting and obscuring trolling techniques.
|
Now imagine if these buildings were ten times heavier. Do you think they would have held together just as well? (Hint: force = mass times acceleration, so the force the building would be subjected to once the foundation failed would be ten times greater. In order to hold together, they would have to be ten times sturdier.)
Try this experiment: Flip a doghouse upside down. Does it hold together?
Now flip a real house upside down (a cyclone/tornado will be needed for this). Does it hold together? |
They (particularly the third photo) would suggest that at least some
part(s) of the building should have held together. If, of course, they were 'natural' collapses. Not too much powder visble either. |
These pictures are of buildings that toppled over in the Taiwan earthquake. Buildings in earthquake zones are built to withstand earthquakes, and therefore have very substantial bracing against horizontal forces, something that is simply not required in normal buildings, except to a very limited extent to withstand wind force. This bracing keeps the buildings together if toppled, a normal building would disintegrate. See if you can find a picture of a normal building that held together in a natural collapse.
A normal building is like a house of cards, it can withstand vertical forces but not horizontal. The bracing of buildings in earthquake zones is like bracing a house of cards with diagonal strips of Sellotape. |
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: |
Here's a few pics of non CD building collapses to get you started while you improve your ludicrous time wasting and obscuring trolling techniques.
|
Now imagine if these buildings were ten times heavier. Do you think they would have held together just as well? (Hint: force = mass times acceleration, so the force the building would be subjected to once the foundation failed would be ten times greater. In order to hold together, they would have to be ten times sturdier.)
Try this experiment: Flip a doghouse upside down. Does it hold together?
Now flip a real house upside down (a cyclone/tornado will be needed for this). Does it hold together? |
They (particularly the third photo) would suggest that at least some
part(s) of the building should have held together. If, of course, they were 'natural' collapses. Not too much powder visble either. |
These pictures are of buildings that toppled over in the Taiwan earthquake. Buildings in earthquake zones are built to withstand earthquakes, and therefore have very substantial bracing against horizontal forces, something that is simply not required in normal buildings, except to a very limited extent to withstand wind force. This bracing keeps the buildings together if toppled, a normal building would disintegrate. See if you can find a picture of a normal building that held together in a natural collapse.
A normal building is like a house of cards, it can withstand vertical forces but not horizontal. The bracing of buildings in earthquake zones is like bracing a house of cards with diagonal strips of Sellotape. |
The flaw in your oh-so-reasonable sounding request being that buildings (particularly steel frame ones) don't normally collapse.
And expressing a side force of 150mph (as stated by Mr. DeMartini himself) hurricane force winds on over a quarter million sq.ft. as 'limited' is how shall we say... misleading? |
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Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: |
Here's a few pics of non CD building collapses to get you started while you improve your ludicrous time wasting and obscuring trolling techniques.
|
Now imagine if these buildings were ten times heavier. Do you think they would have held together just as well? (Hint: force = mass times acceleration, so the force the building would be subjected to once the foundation failed would be ten times greater. In order to hold together, they would have to be ten times sturdier.)
Try this experiment: Flip a doghouse upside down. Does it hold together?
Now flip a real house upside down (a cyclone/tornado will be needed for this). Does it hold together? |
They (particularly the third photo) would suggest that at least some
part(s) of the building should have held together. If, of course, they were 'natural' collapses. Not too much powder visble either. |
These pictures are of buildings that toppled over in the Taiwan earthquake. Buildings in earthquake zones are built to withstand earthquakes, and therefore have very substantial bracing against horizontal forces, something that is simply not required in normal buildings, except to a very limited extent to withstand wind force. This bracing keeps the buildings together if toppled, a normal building would disintegrate. See if you can find a picture of a normal building that held together in a natural collapse.
A normal building is like a house of cards, it can withstand vertical forces but not horizontal. The bracing of buildings in earthquake zones is like bracing a house of cards with diagonal strips of Sellotape. |
The flaw in your oh-so-reasonable sounding request being that buildings (particularly steel frame ones) don't normally collapse.
And expressing a side force of 150mph (as stated by Mr. DeMartini himself) hurricane force winds on over a quarter million sq.ft. as 'limited' is how shall we say... misleading? |
Why do you think it misleading? I will put it another way if you like, the horizontal force acting on a building not in an earthquake zone is limited to the wind force. Therefore buildings in earthquake zones require substantial additional bracing to withstand the much greater horizontal forces they may be subjected to. This bracing may be sufficient to enable them to act as a monolithic structure and topple over intact, something not possible for a normally constructed building.
I am not surprised you cannot find a normal building outside an earthquake zone that has fallen over intact, that is rather my point. Building collapses are not uncommon in fact, but the structure does not stay intact if it is of normal construction. |
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Disco_Destroyer
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 6342
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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My comments are no less scientific than the comment of Throwing a dogs kennel up in the air, I just reply like for like
_________________
'Come and see the violence inherent in the system.
Help, help, I'm being repressed!'
“The more you tighten your grip, the more Star Systems will slip through your fingers.”
www.myspace.com/disco_destroyer |
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Johnny Pixels
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | jsut_peopel my point would be small building-small plane//large building-large plane |
Ok, maybe this will help you understand what we're getting at. The red line is how the kinetic energy of a fully loaded 767 varies with velocity, the blue line is how a 6 seater light aircrafts KE varies with velocity. The 767 has a mass of 175,000 kg, the light aircraft 2900 kg. The velocity varies from 0 - 270 metres per second, or 0 to 600mph.
Maybe now you see why a 767 is such a dangerous thing?
_________________
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: |
Here's a few pics of non CD building collapses to get you started while you improve your ludicrous time wasting and obscuring trolling techniques.
|
Now imagine if these buildings were ten times heavier. Do you think they would have held together just as well? (Hint: force = mass times acceleration, so the force the building would be subjected to once the foundation failed would be ten times greater. In order to hold together, they would have to be ten times sturdier.)
Try this experiment: Flip a doghouse upside down. Does it hold together?
Now flip a real house upside down (a cyclone/tornado will be needed for this). Does it hold together? |
They (particularly the third photo) would suggest that at least some
part(s) of the building should have held together. If, of course, they were 'natural' collapses. Not too much powder visble either. |
These pictures are of buildings that toppled over in the Taiwan earthquake. Buildings in earthquake zones are built to withstand earthquakes, and therefore have very substantial bracing against horizontal forces, something that is simply not required in normal buildings, except to a very limited extent to withstand wind force. This bracing keeps the buildings together if toppled, a normal building would disintegrate. See if you can find a picture of a normal building that held together in a natural collapse.
A normal building is like a house of cards, it can withstand vertical forces but not horizontal. The bracing of buildings in earthquake zones is like bracing a house of cards with diagonal strips of Sellotape. |
The flaw in your oh-so-reasonable sounding request being that buildings (particularly steel frame ones) don't normally collapse.
And expressing a side force of 150mph (as stated by Mr. DeMartini himself) hurricane force winds on over a quarter million sq.ft. as 'limited' is how shall we say... misleading? |
Why do you think it misleading? I will put it another way if you like, the horizontal force acting on a building not in an earthquake zone is limited to the wind force. Therefore buildings in earthquake zones require substantial additional bracing to withstand the much greater horizontal forces they may be subjected to. This bracing may be sufficient to enable them to act as a monolithic structure and topple over intact, something not possible for a normally constructed building.
I am not surprised you cannot find a normal building outside an earthquake zone that has fallen over intact, that is rather my point. Building collapses are not uncommon in fact, but the structure does not stay intact if it is of normal construction. |
Well no, that was actually my point. That steel frame buildings aren't famous for collapsing, unless they're unlucky enough to be in a war zone or otherwise deliberately demolished.
But I am certainly looking forward to some substantiation of your claim that all these earthquake collapsed buildings are stressed in the way you state so we can discount them. |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | My comments are no less scientific than the comment of Throwing a dogs kennel up in the air, I just reply like for like |
I was attempting to illustrate a point. I'm not sure what you were doing. |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: |
Well no, that was actually my point. That steel frame buildings aren't famous for collapsing, unless they're unlucky enough to be in a war zone or otherwise deliberately demolished.
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Or struck by an insanely high-speed airliner full of fuel. Every time that's happened, the building has collapsed. |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Johnny Pixels wrote: | | Disco_Destroyer wrote: | | jsut_peopel my point would be small building-small plane//large building-large plane |
Ok, maybe this will help you understand what we're getting at. The red line is how the kinetic energy of a fully loaded 767 varies with velocity, the blue line is how a 6 seater light aircrafts KE varies with velocity. The 767 has a mass of 175,000 kg, the light aircraft 2900 kg. The velocity varies from 0 - 270 metres per second, or 0 to 600mph.
Maybe now you see why a 767 is such a dangerous thing?
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Thanks, JP, much clearer (and more accurate) illustration of the forces involved than mine! |
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: |
Well no, that was actually my point. That steel frame buildings aren't famous for collapsing, unless they're unlucky enough to be in a war zone or otherwise deliberately demolished.
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Or struck by an insanely high-speed airliner full of fuel. Every time that's happened, the building has collapsed. |
Quite. The only trouble with that particular theory being that it falls a long way short of satisfying all the information. |
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Johnny Pixels
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: |
Thanks, JP, much clearer (and more accurate) illustration of the forces involved than mine! |
I knew that engineering degree would come in useful for something!
_________________
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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Bicnarok
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Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 334
Location: Cydonia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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I suprised the pentagon anomolies didn´t win that vote, building 7 was "pulled" obviously, but that alone doesn´t point to a cover up by the government.
the two towers also were "pulled" but it could have been an insurance scam and done by the owners, also gives the government a back door.
But the pentagon, no plane hit it, the holes two small, its amazing manoveur before hitting, where it hit etc.
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"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind..." Bod Marley |
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Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| chek wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: |
Here's a few pics of non CD building collapses to get you started while you improve your ludicrous time wasting and obscuring trolling techniques.
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Now imagine if these buildings were ten times heavier. Do you think they would have held together just as well? (Hint: force = mass times acceleration, so the force the building would be subjected to once the foundation failed would be ten times greater. In order to hold together, they would have to be ten times sturdier.)
Try this experiment: Flip a doghouse upside down. Does it hold together?
Now flip a real house upside down (a cyclone/tornado will be needed for this). Does it hold together? |
They (particularly the third photo) would suggest that at least some
part(s) of the building should have held together. If, of course, they were 'natural' collapses. Not too much powder visble either. |
These pictures are of buildings that toppled over in the Taiwan earthquake. Buildings in earthquake zones are built to withstand earthquakes, and therefore have very substantial bracing against horizontal forces, something that is simply not required in normal buildings, except to a very limited extent to withstand wind force. This bracing keeps the buildings together if toppled, a normal building would disintegrate. See if you can find a picture of a normal building that held together in a natural collapse.
A normal building is like a house of cards, it can withstand vertical forces but not horizontal. The bracing of buildings in earthquake zones is like bracing a house of cards with diagonal strips of Sellotape. |
The flaw in your oh-so-reasonable sounding request being that buildings (particularly steel frame ones) don't normally collapse.
And expressing a side force of 150mph (as stated by Mr. DeMartini himself) hurricane force winds on over a quarter million sq.ft. as 'limited' is how shall we say... misleading? |
Why do you think it misleading? I will put it another way if you like, the horizontal force acting on a building not in an earthquake zone is limited to the wind force. Therefore buildings in earthquake zones require substantial additional bracing to withstand the much greater horizontal forces they may be subjected to. This bracing may be sufficient to enable them to act as a monolithic structure and topple over intact, something not possible for a normally constructed building.
I am not surprised you cannot find a normal building outside an earthquake zone that has fallen over intact, that is rather my point. Building collapses are not uncommon in fact, but the structure does not stay intact if it is of normal construction. |
Well no, that was actually my point. That steel frame buildings aren't famous for collapsing, unless they're unlucky enough to be in a war zone or otherwise deliberately demolished.
But I am certainly looking forward to some substantiation of your claim that all these earthquake collapsed buildings are stressed in the way you state so we can discount them. |
That is not possible of course, although it is a reasonable assumption about a modern building in an earthquake zone. Neither can you show that these were in fact buildings of normal construction. Impasse. But since it was you who were citing them as examples, it is up to you to provide examples of buildings to which the objection that they are probably not of normal construction does not apply. If you wish to pursue that line of argument, that is. |
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | Bushwacker wrote: | | chek wrote: | | aggle-rithm wrote: | | chek wrote: |
Here's a few pics of non CD building collapses to get you started while you improve your ludicrous time wasting and obscuring trolling techniques.
|
Now imagine if these buildings were ten times heavier. Do you think they would have held together just as well? (Hint: force = mass times acceleration, so the force the building would be subjected to once the foundation failed would be ten times greater. In order to hold together, they would have to be ten times sturdier.)
Try this experiment: Flip a doghouse upside down. Does it hold together?
Now flip a real house upside down (a cyclone/tornado will be needed for this). Does it hold together? |
They (particularly the third photo) would suggest that at least some
part(s) of the building should have held together. If, of course, they were 'natural' collapses. Not too much powder visble either. |
These pictures are of buildings that toppled over in the Taiwan earthquake. Buildings in earthquake zones are built to withstand earthquakes, and therefore have very substantial bracing against horizontal forces, something that is simply not required in normal buildings, except to a very limited extent to withstand wind force. This bracing keeps the buildings together if toppled, a normal building would disintegrate. See if you can find a picture of a normal building that held together in a natural collapse.
A normal building is like a house of cards, it can withstand vertical forces but not horizontal. The bracing of buildings in earthquake zones is like bracing a house of cards with diagonal strips of Sellotape. |
The flaw in your oh-so-reasonable sounding request being that buildings (particularly steel frame ones) don't normally collapse.
And expressing a side force of 150mph (as stated by Mr. DeMartini himself) hurricane force winds on over a quarter million sq.ft. as 'limited' is how shall we say... misleading? |
Why do you think it misleading? I will put it another way if you like, the horizontal force acting on a building not in an earthquake zone is limited to the wind force. Therefore buildings in earthquake zones require substantial additional bracing to withstand the much greater horizontal forces they may be subjected to. This bracing may be sufficient to enable them to act as a monolithic structure and topple over intact, something not possible for a normally constructed building.
I am not surprised you cannot find a normal building outside an earthquake zone that has fallen over intact, that is rather my point. Building collapses are not uncommon in fact, but the structure does not stay intact if it is of normal construction. |
Well no, that was actually my point. That steel frame buildings aren't famous for collapsing, unless they're unlucky enough to be in a war zone or otherwise deliberately demolished.
But I am certainly looking forward to some substantiation of your claim that all these earthquake collapsed buildings are stressed in the way you state so we can discount them. |
That is not possible of course, although it is a reasonable assumption about a modern building in an earthquake zone. Neither can you show that these were in fact buildings of normal construction. Impasse. But since it was you who were citing them as examples, it is up to you to provide examples of buildings to which the objection that they are probably not of normal construction does not apply. If you wish to pursue that line of argument, that is. |
No, I'm quite happy to have shown that - alleged superbob construction materials aside ( why is Pakistani or Turkish concrete so much better than ours?) - they did not even begin to turn to powder despite their large falling mass. |
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aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Bicnarok wrote: | I suprised the pentagon anomolies didn´t win that vote, building 7 was "pulled" obviously, but that alone doesn´t point to a cover up by the government.
the two towers also were "pulled" but it could have been an insurance scam and done by the owners, also gives the government a back door.
But the pentagon, no plane hit it, the holes two small, its amazing manoveur before hitting, where it hit etc. |
Amazing maneuver.... you mean turning around? |
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Johnny Pixels
Moderate Poster
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| aggle-rithm wrote: | | Bicnarok wrote: | I suprised the pentagon anomolies didn´t win that vote, building 7 was "pulled" obviously, but that alone doesn´t point to a cover up by the government.
the two towers also were "pulled" but it could have been an insurance scam and done by the owners, also gives the government a back door.
But the pentagon, no plane hit it, the holes two small, its amazing manoveur before hitting, where it hit etc. |
Amazing maneuver.... you mean turning around? |
Turning around and losing altitude I think you'll find.
The fact that losing altitude happens naturally when you turn, and the tricky part is maintaining your height in a turn, is of no consequence. Hear me? NO CONSEQUENCE!
_________________
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco
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