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Serge
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 Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:53 am Post subject: Debunk this.. |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Q8nSEeUec
No such thing as 757 hitting pentagon. No light poles hit, AA77 is way off the official flight path, so what was on the official flight path?.
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telecasterisation
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Location: Upstairs
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Debunk this.. |
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| Serge wrote: | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Q8nSEeUec
No such thing as 757 hitting pentagon. No light poles hit, AA77 is way off the official flight path, so what was on the official flight path?. |
It isn't really a case of debunking anything, we are shown an animation via YouTube and it is gospel? Bugs Bunny is evidence of talking rabbits? We can only guess what was on the official flight path.
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I completely challenge the official version of events - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC -I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC |
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Serge
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Debunk this.. |
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| telecasterisation wrote: | | Serge wrote: | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Q8nSEeUec
No such thing as 757 hitting pentagon. No light poles hit, AA77 is way off the official flight path, so what was on the official flight path?. |
It isn't really a case of debunking anything, we are shown an animation via YouTube and it is gospel? Bugs Bunny is evidence of talking rabbits? We can only guess what was on the official flight path. |
It was created by JDX who is from pilotsfortruth with the FDR data recieved. It is as cosha as it gets. 
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telecasterisation
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Debunk this.. |
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| Serge wrote: | | It was created by JDX who is from pilotsfortruth with the FDR data recieved. It is as cosha as it gets. |
The entire Pentagon scenario is a source of great controversy and to state that anything is 'kosher' is a very bold statement given that we have so much conflicting 'evidence'.
I am not saying that any of it is incorrect or wrong, there is just far too much we don't know to be certain of anything.
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I completely challenge the official version of events - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC -I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC - I AM NOT A 9/11 TRUTH CRITIC |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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I went to a recent presentation where the NTSB animation was shown.
If you doubt that this is real data from the NTSB then that is your choice. I have no reason to doubt that this data and it's visual representation of it is as provided by the NTSB.
I didn't get my data from YouTube I got it from a chap who got it from the NTSB.
That chap posts here. Do a search.
The NTSB data and animation of same, contradicts the supposed real flight path, by linking the impact and "downed" poles giving a flight path "error" of some 20 degrees.
The NTSB data also contradicts the "downed" poles by some 440 feet (+/- 75 feet) in altitude.
Someone is lieing.
Debunk that.
During the same presentation, a John Doe of http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/ was credited as the voice in the telephone conversations with the NTSB and the FBI that was played out loud for all to hear.
Debunk that.
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:21 am Post subject: |
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I've debunked much of it. Chasing these people around the entire internet debunking the same claim is tiring.
The short version is: The publicly released FDR data is not a perfect reproduction of the actual FDR data. This is obvious to anyone who has experience with FDR or any flight-test data. It has "processed" in such a way to make it easy to plot. The error introduced is small, in general, but large when trying to do forensic reconstruction requiring to-the-foot and to-the-millisecond precision.
Start here if you care about learning the truth: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66047
If you want to discuss these issues in more detail, I'll be happy to, presuming you are genuinely interesting in understand how FDR data works, and what the CSV file and animation are, how they were created, and how they differ from what the raw FDR data would show. |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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There's that stink again!
I looked at the list of new topics when I visited this morning and was pleased to find, as usual, that the shills were off work for the weekend. Only one "Critic's Corner" post was there and ten others. Can the moderators keep this troll in the sewer please? |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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Anti Sophist
I've read the entire thread you linked to at JREf.
Please confirm I have understood this correctly.
You are saying that the CSV data is provided only to be able to produce a plot and animation.
The publicly released FDR data is not real FDR data.
The frame descriptors have not been released so the data is meaningless.
You are unsure about whether the data has been compressed or not.
Practically this means that there are errors in the animation provided by the NTSB regarding all times or is it just the missing last seconds ?
Does this mean all altitudes have errors or just the last few seconds ?
You do not seem to have mentioned the discrepancy in heading that is apparent between the plotted instrument readings and the line that links the downed poles to the impact point.
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chek
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | Anti Sophist
I've read the entire thread you linked to at JREf.
Please confirm I have understood this correctly.
You are saying that the CSV data is provided only to be able to produce a plot and animation.
The publicly released FDR data is not real FDR data.
The frame descriptors have not been released so the data is meaningless.
You are unsure about whether the data has been compressed or not.
Practically this means that there are errors in the animation provided by the NTSB regarding all times or is it just the missing last seconds ?
Does this mean all altitudes have errors or just the last few seconds ?
You do not seem to have mentioned the discrepancy in heading that is apparent between the plotted instrument readings and the line that links the downed poles to the impact point. |
You're not supposed to question Mark, you're supposed to accept the Voice of Authority.
After all, you're talking to a poster who stated only a couple of days ago that the whole universe is entirely understandable.
http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=4959&start=75
It'll be interesting to see the response (should there be one). |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: |
You are saying that the CSV data is provided only to be able to produce a plot and animation.
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I am not saying that. That is what the report it was attached said it was for. The CSV file was the source of the plots from the released FOIA report of the FDR data of flight 77.
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The publicly released FDR data is not real FDR data.
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Need to be careful here... since there are two files of data that have been released, the ".csv" and the ".fdr". The CSV file is not the raw FDR data. The .fdr data that has been released, we have been told, is the raw FDR data. This is difficult to confirm because...
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The frame descriptors have not been released so the data is meaningless.
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By and large, yes.
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You are unsure about whether the data has been compressed or not.
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It was compressed on the recording media, for sure, the question is whether the .fdr file is still in the compressed form. My leanings from reading the email exchange between UnderTow (on Loose Change) and a Boeing engineer says that the file requires a propriety decoding software.. this leads me to believe that the raw fdr file is still in compressed form.
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Practically this means that there are errors in the animation provided by the NTSB regarding all times or is it just the missing last seconds ?
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Both, in fact. The CSV file contains a full frame, at the end. This means, to me, that the CSV file contains all the frames at the end that were completed and retrieved "normally' through the software.
Extracting information from incomplete frames and/or regions of the media where the writing was occuring during failure, is extremely difficult, but doable. Chances are this information was extracted painstakingly, but it was in bits and pieces, and not all of it was likely able to be retrieved. The final partial frame(s) of data are almost definitely not in the CSV file.
The methodology for the animation reconstruction were never released. We don't know any of the error tolerances or any of the reconstruction methodology. I've put together animations like this before, and reconstructing things from multiple incosistent data (two sensors never say the same thing).. you have to make assumptions and corrections and deal with all the errors to get a good picture.
Working out all the errors takes time... we would need to know how it was constructed and under what parameters, to really be able to say it's accuracy, at all. At the very least, we'd need the NTSB to tell us what the precision was.
If you sat me down and said "I want a quick animation of the flight", you wouldn't get a to-the-foot accurate animation. If the point was to show the maneuver and show the "feel" of what happened, it's perfectly acceptable. If you really wanted to reconstruct the exact flight path, to the foot and to the millisecond, it would require a great deal more time and effort.
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Does this mean all altitudes have errors or just the last few seconds ?
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My point is that ALL samples in the CSV file have time errors. This is irrespective of the actual sensory errors that come from all sensors. In other words, the ADC got an alt. of 917, which got buffered in the DAU, and then inserted into the serial bitstream. The time that 917 was measured by the ADC is not the same time implied by it's location in the bistream. This is a time-slip error in the CSV file. The raw FDR file, almost certainly, contains a timestamp along with the altitude data that states when it was measured. Therefore a reconstruction based on the raw FDR data would know when 917 actually occured in time. Since we only have the CSV file, we can only guess based on reasonable upper bounds for the time it takes for a measurement to be measured until it is put into the serial bitstream.
This is in addition to the fact that the measurement of 917 has an error of +/- X feet given the conditions.
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You do not seem to have mentioned the discrepancy in heading that is apparent between the plotted instrument readings and the line that links the downed poles to the impact point. |
I don't mention it because it's a "new" proof based on the FDR data. I haven't really had a chance to look at it specifically in detail, yet. It appears to based on the animation, which again brings up the question of how accurate is this reconstruction.
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You're not supposed to question Mark, you're supposed to accept the Voice of Authority.
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And yet I said, specifically, that I'm willing to talk in greater to detail with people who actually care about finding out more.
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After all, you're talking to a poster who stated only a couple of days ago that the whole universe is entirely understandable.
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Yes, that is a fundamental tenant of science -- that our puny human minds can understand the universe. It took science a long time to convince people of the fact that human reason was capable of finding truth. Before that, human-kind believed that only God could know, and we read His books to find the truth.
Last edited by Anti-sophist on Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Anti Sophist
I have read the NTSB reports that clearly state the times were accurately correlated.
They also clearly state that the data was compressed using the Hoffman encoding scheme. Your early confusion and latter certainty about this issue is therefore perplexing.
They also clearly state that the compressed data is decompressed using the ARINC 575/717 format without any data loss. Again, your confusion is perplexing.
The NTSB AA 77 FDR report is actually titled: "Specialists Factual Report of Investigation Digital Flight Data Recorder".
The acronyms you quote are not confusing to me, I do understand them. As I do your "analysis".
Don't you trust what the NTSB say ?
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Abandoned Ego
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: So, What are you saying ? |
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| Quote: | | I am not saying that. That is what the report it was attached said it was for. The CSV file was the source of the plots from the released FOIA report of the FDR data of flight 77. |
So what are you saying ?
That the FDR flight data is the usual nonsense ?
You people are just too damn funny.
Northwoods proves nothing, The Anthrax attacks prove nothing, Bush revoking Habeas Corpus means nothing.
When they come for your children, for complaining that their children cant say boo to a goose without being censored, or complaining about how their taxes are being used to fund wars based upon lies, what will you be saying then ?
You know what ? I can honestly excuse the vast majority of folks who still think that Iraq had WMDs, or that there was a link between Iraq and Al quaeda, or the ridiculous OTC. They dont have the benefit of visiting sites such as this, who present the facts right in your face.
But someone like yourself ? Will youre grandchildren forgive you if they decide they dont wish to be part of Bushes brownshirts, because they have an ounce of morality in their bodies ? |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Gobell wrote: | Anti Sophist
I have read the NTSB reports that clearly state the times were accurately correlated. |
How accurately? There is no such thing as "accurately" in science. Accuracy is a quantifiable number.
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They also clearly state that the data was compressed using the Hoffman encoding scheme. Your early confusion and latter certainty about this issue is therefore perplexing.
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And was the .fdr file from before or after that process? And how do you know?
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They also clearly state that the compressed data is decompressed using the ARINC 575/717 format without any data loss. Again, your confusion is perplexing.
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I never said the FDR file had errors. I have stated repeatedly that if we could decode the raw FDR file, most of the errors I talk about would go away. The errors are due to the lack of precision in the CSV file.
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Don't you trust what the NTSB say ? |
Why wouldn't I? |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: So, What are you saying ? |
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| Abandoned Ego wrote: |
So what are you saying ?
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That doing forsenic analysis without the raw FDR data is fundamentally flawed. Treating the CSV file as raw FDR data is fundamentally flawed, as well.
That's all.
I've worked with many data recorders, and I have no doubt that the raw FDR is incredibly accurate at recording exactly what it is told to record, when it is told to record it. |
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Abandoned Ego
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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: What youre saying. |
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| Quote: | That doing forsenic analysis without the raw FDR data is fundamentally flawed. Treating the CSV file as raw FDR data is fundamentally flawed, as well.
That's all.
I've worked with many data recorders, and I have no doubt that the raw FDR is incredibly accurate at recording exactly what it is told to record, when it is told to record it. |
[/quote]
So, to interpret what youre actually saying, is that Science is never precise, The Anthrax attacks are nothing to worry about, nor is the revoking of Habeas corpus, nor do you care for any morality amidst your siblings, and youre siblings siblings.
I see.
Good for you. You just carry on insisting that 19 arabs with box cutters did 9/11. Let me assure you, that this kind of thing works. When I was younger, I used to phone into work feigning illness, and you know what ?
The more I said it to myself, the more I believed it. |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: What youre saying. |
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So, to interpret what youre actually saying, is that Science is never precise |
Nothing is "precise". That word has no meaning. Science measures it's precision. Precision is a number. There isn't some magical line you cross and say it's "precise". Keep in mind the same applies to accuracy, as well as precision.
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, The Anthrax attacks are nothing to worry about, nor is the revoking of Habeas corpus, nor do you care for any morality amidst your siblings, and youre siblings siblings.
I see.
Good for you. You just carry on insisting that 19 arabs with box cutters did 9/11. Let me assure you, that this kind of thing works. When I was younger, I used to phone into work feigning illness, and you know what ?
The more I said it to myself, the more I believed it. |
I'm going to just ignore this bizarre change of subject. There are plenty of others threads where you can discuss all of this, and more. |
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Abandoned Ego
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject: Well thats a real pity. |
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| Quote: | | I'm going to just ignore this bizarre change of subject. There are plenty of others threads where you can discuss all of this, and more. |
[/quote]
Well thats a real pity. Because to my mind, folks like you need to discuss things this whole cognitive dissonance problem, if not with me, but with yourself in a moment of solitude.
This movement might well save YOUR children from the Orwellian/Nazi nightmare coming all to fast to a neighbourhood near you anytime soon, but think how much easier it would be if you might just take a moment or two to think about the whole situation, and reassess events of the Bushco dictatorship to date.
Or is the idea of no freedom of expression for you siblings, and their siblings , based fundamentally upon the official fairystory of 9/11 , a price you consider worth paying ? |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Well thats a real pity. |
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| Abandoned Ego wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm going to just ignore this bizarre change of subject. There are plenty of others threads where you can discuss all of this, and more. |
Well thats a real pity. Because to my mind, folks like you need to discuss things this whole cognitive dissonance problem, if not with me, but with yourself in a moment of solitude.
This movement might well save YOUR children from the Orwellian/Nazi nightmare coming all to fast to a neighbourhood near you anytime soon, but think how much easier it would be if you might just take a moment or two to think about the whole situation, and reassess events of the Bushco dictatorship to date.
Or is the idea of no freedom of expression for you siblings, and their siblings , based fundamentally upon the official fairystory of 9/11 , a price you consider worth paying ? |
That's all well and good, but I came to this topic to discuss the flight recorder at the pentagon. You seem to want to have a deeper philosophical discussion based on your loaded questions and what not.
If you want to talk about the FDR, I will. That's what the thread is about, afterall, and since I want to talk about the FDR, I'm not going to contribute to your attempt to hijack it (no pun intended). |
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Abandoned Ego
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: with the greatest respect. |
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| Quote: | | If you want to talk about the FDR, I will. That's what the thread is about, afterall, and since I want to talk about the FDR, I'm not going to contribute to your attempt to hijack it (no pun intended). |
Good luck to you in your quest to convince yourself that the impossible is indeed possible.
Good luck with your smoke and mirrors game, and youre phoney percentages and debunking of Science. Youve already convinced yourself that buildings can defy the laws of physics. Hell, this should be a doddle to you.
But for the sake of your own credibility, dont send us links to discussions on the JRef forum.
And incidentally, regarding the change of topic ; Trust me, I was doing you a favour. From what Ive seen so far, youre failing miserably with this one too |
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Mark Gobell
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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You tried to come here and discuss the FDR allegedly found at the Pentagon.
But you did not succeed my friend.
You are a fraud in my book.
Pure and simply a fraud.
This is my last post to you.
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like my work here is done. Topic debunked.
If anyone else wants to deal with the issues raised, you'll probably be able to find me on the Critic's section since I tend to not be able to handle the generally low conversation level of the "General" forum. |
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Mark Gobell
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I fully encourage everyone to read the report, look at the charts, and even take a peruse through the data.
Interpreted correctly, it's quite informative. |
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johndoex
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Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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I see you guys are starting to visit my site from here again.. thats awesome! It does get updated regularly.
I also see you have A-S well under control and have figured out his spin/omit/ignore practices. Great job.
Please be sure to let Anti-S know that his holding onto fractions of a second when the animation was produced with FDR, Radar data and ATC transmissions is very sad.
Anti-S is holding onto that csv file for dear life with a thin string.... too bad his string is about to snap.
Anti-S.. .get the animation already. Watch it. The altimeter moves on take off. It doesnt move a second or two after rotation.
Anyway.. keep this Anti-S guy in check.. he likes to spin ALOT! We do have a full report coming out showing his numerous errors (and spin). It will be published and shared. Just let Anti-S have enough rope.. he seems to be good at it.
Cherrio my good friends across the pond. Tell Snowygrouch i said hi!
http://pilotsfor911truth.org
www.forums.pilotsfor911truth.org |
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Serge
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Anti-sophist wrote: | I've debunked much of it. Chasing these people around the entire internet debunking the same claim is tiring.
The short version is: The publicly released FDR data is not a perfect reproduction of the actual FDR data. This is obvious to anyone who has experience with FDR or any flight-test data. It has "processed" in such a way to make it easy to plot. The error introduced is small, in general, but large when trying to do forensic reconstruction requiring to-the-foot and to-the-millisecond precision.
Start here if you care about learning the truth: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=66047
If you want to discuss these issues in more detail, I'll be happy to, presuming you are genuinely interesting in understand how FDR data works, and what the CSV file and animation are, how they were created, and how they differ from what the raw FDR data would show. |
randi!? laughable, wonderful educations system eh? makes the unblind, blind.
JREF has Sylvia Brown, we have JREF.
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The most transparent of all materials on this Earth is a politician. |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Bring up some science, and watch the personal insults fly. The CT-way.
Anyways, the issue has been thoroughly debunked. The evidence has been presented, and no one has attacked my analysis. Instead, you've attacked me.. called me a fraud, etc. When you guys get educated about the issue, and want to discuss the matter further, I will be easy to find.
As usual, the CTers are more interested in discrediting the PEOPLE who disagree with them, ignoring the simple analysis that debunks their delusions. |
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Anti-sophist
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| johndoex wrote: |
Anyway.. keep this Anti-S guy in check.. he likes to spin ALOT! We do have a full report coming out showing his numerous errors (and spin). It will be published and shared. Just let Anti-S have enough rope.. he seems to be good at it. |
I've been hearing about this report for weeks. So far, it's alot of talk and little substance (except for that graphic UnderTow posted which proves my points for me...) I will, however, give you guys credit for actually trying to deal with the analysis. That's more than I can say for virtually every other one of the CTers who are more interested in self-reinforcing their beliefs.
I eagerly await the flaws you've found. The two good bits that have been "leaked" have been totally goofed up, so I hope the proper corrections have been made. I'd hate to see you guys "publish" stuff that is already known to be wrong. |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| Where are the admins? The trolls come here to do nothing more than undermine and are not keeping to their sewer. I try to avoid their drivel and now they invade general threads! The price of tolerating them being here at all? Ban them and we won't have to put up with shi*e like anti-sophist. |
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Ignatz
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: | | Where are the admins? The trolls come here to do nothing more than undermine and are not keeping to their sewer. I try to avoid their drivel and now they invade general threads! The price of tolerating them being here at all? Ban them and we won't have to put up with shi*e like anti-sophist. |
If you ban the critics this board will die, either of boredom or of in-fighting amongst you Truthers 
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So remember - next time you can't find a parking spot, go to plan B: blow up your car |
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Serge
Moderate Poster
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Anti-sophist wrote: | Bring up some science, and watch the personal insults fly. The CT-way.
Anyways, the issue has been thoroughly debunked. The evidence has been presented, and no one has attacked my analysis. Instead, you've attacked me.. called me a fraud, etc. When you guys get educated about the issue, and want to discuss the matter further, I will be easy to find.
As usual, the CTers are more interested in discrediting the PEOPLE who disagree with them, ignoring the simple analysis that debunks their delusions. |
bs. You admitted to not being an expert on FDR issues not so long back, so what makes you the expert which you are not, all of a sudden?.
You as a person are now debunked, rumbled, caught out. 
_________________
The most transparent of all materials on this Earth is a politician. |
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