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Moti
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 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ian neal wrote: |
My personal truth (that is shared by many others) is that 'infinite love is the only truth, everything else is an illusion'. . |
This is ickes philosphy. This is described as impersonalism in the Vedas. It is nothing new. Icke is not presenting anything not already known.
It is an incomplete understanding. The absolute truth has both personal and impersonal features. So what is that Love? Icke seems to suggest we all become one. But love means the lover and the object of love, so there is two. The devotee [lover] and the Loved [God] God is also the lover of all the devotees. |
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Moti
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John White
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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This is my last post on this thread, for the reasons I have already outlined
If you want to continuing conversing afterwards Moti you can find me at Illusions
| Moti wrote: | | John White wrote: |
You'd be surprised what I could tell you about religion. Its best not to make asumptions about what others do or do not know based on what you see on a website...and what you believe that says about a person. However I've spent too much time talking to people with all sorts of religous mindsets to see wisdom in conversing with someone who can't explain their beliefs in their own words and expects me to be persuaded to anything from large chunks of that particular religions handbook.
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Well i thought you might like to hear directly from the authority, still i don't mind acting as a middle man for you if you couldn't understand the quotes. |
An authority, in that people grant the words that quality through their admiration, granted, but not The authority: its words written by men translated through the minds of men. And a lot of good stuff there is in there too. Free will allows man always to question: and there's nothing in the quote I don't understand, thankyou. Its where we understand things from which is truly significant. God is in all the books, and beyond all the words: is my belief
| Quote: | In essence there are 3 ways to receive knowledge; pratyaksa, anumana and sabda:
1. Pratyaksa means "direct evidence." Direct evidence is not very good because our senses are not perfect. We are seeing the sun daily, and it appears to us just like a small disc, but it is actually far, far larger than many planets. Of what value is this seeing? Therefore we have to read books; then we can understand about the sun. So direct experience is not perfect.
2. Then there is anumana, inductive knowledge: "It may be like this"--hypothesis. For instance, Darwin's theory says it may be like this, it may be like that. But that is not science. That is a suggestion, and it is also not perfect.
3. But if you receive the knowledge from the authoritative sources, that is perfect. If you receive a program guide from the radio station authorities, you accept it. You don't deny it; you don't have to make an experiment, because it is received from the authoritative sources.
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You identify three methods: there are more. However, you miss the perception that 3) is not perfectly possible given the limitations already outlined in 1). We use the same "flawed" instruments to read a book as to do anything else. What you are really telling me is that there is an energy defined by the words that you find liberates and excites you, lifts you up, fills you with joy, and has become the path with which you identify. I quite understand. But I will not limit myself to rigid obiescience to any words in any book: for there is a fourth method: direct and personal realtionship with the divine. Steps 1) through 3) give us the framework with which to approach 4)
| Quote: | | Vedic knowledge is called sabda-pramana. Another name is sruti. Sruti means that this knowledge has to be received simply by aural reception. The Vedas instruct that in order to understand transcendental knowledge, we have to hear from the authority. Transcendental knowledge is knowledge from beyond this universe. Within this universe is material knowledge, and beyond this universe is transcendental knowledge. We cannot even go to the end of the universe, so how can we go to the spiritual world? |
Someone did, to write the Veda's: or they can have no claim to be the words of the divine. Some would say this statement indicates the mind set of controlled religion, not higher truth
| Quote: | | Thus to acquire full knowledge is impossible. |
Tricky, definately...but not impossible. One route is through coming to understanding of the fact that we are "spiritual" in our nature, not material. That is the illusion of "maya", after all. We can then have/develop awareness of spiritual energy as well as material energy
| Quote: | | There is a spiritual sky. There is another nature, which is beyond manifestation and nonmanifestation. But how will you know that there is a sky where the planets and inhabitants are eternal? All this knowledge is there, but how will you make experiments? |
Not a bad point: but built on the asumption of using the mind to reason and to think, without asking the question of "is this the best tool?". The mind thinks, the souls knows, and the soul is the true seat of awareness...even though it is also illusion...my personal journey says to me
| Quote: | | It is not possible. |
As soon as one believes that, obviously not. Belief creates reality
| Quote: | | Therefore you have to take the assistance of the Vedas. |
Its the only choice...if one chooses to believe as above
| Quote: | | This is called Vedic knowledge. In our Krsna consciousness movement we are accepting knowledge from the highest authority, Krsna. |
Back to the difficulty of point one 
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so if you want to continue the conversation, you can Moti
It matters not too me what you believe or how you understand the universe around you, and rightly so, for it should not. I've given you some feedback on your film, and conversed with you on this thread, entirely from goodwill. Wether you have taken on board my points or not is equally unimportant, becuase your film and communications have the affect they have and that is what they do. Clarity, on anything, is always the observers responsibility
regards, John
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Last edited by John White on Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:03 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Moti
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bongo Brian wrote: |
There is no life after death... |
as a child grows, he becomes a boy, the boy becomes a young man, the young man becomes an adult, and the adult becomes an old man. Throughout all this time, although his body is changing from a child to an old man, he still feels himself to be the same person, with the same identity. Just see: the body is changing, but the occupier of the body, the soul, is remaining the same. So we should logically conclude that when our present body dies, we get another body. This is called transmigration of the soul. |
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Moti
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: |
so if you want to continue the conversation, you can Moti
It matters not too me what you believe or how you understand the universe around you, and rightly so, for it should not. I've given you some feedback on your film, and conversed with you on this thread, entirely from goodwill. Wether you have taken on board my points or not is equally unimportant, becuase your film and communications have the affect they have and that is what they do. Clarity, on anything, is always the observers responsibility
regards, John |
Thanks for the discussion and the feedback John. Hare KRISHNA! |
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Moti
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graphicequaliser
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Moti - 2 points
1) "The devil makes work for idle hands". If you are a nihilist or you believe that life spawned on planets by pure random chance, then you are "taking a back seat" with regards to life philosophy, and guess who'll be driving you!
2) The natural law is you should eat what you kill, otherwise don't kill it.
My own belief is simple - the space-time continuum has a benign energy associated with it, that favours the development of intelligent life within its fabric. Why? I don't know, but it fits the observable facts. As products of this benign energy force, we are chasing our own tails trying to analyse it. It may be fun, but any theories we may form about the nature of the universe, can only be transient, and one should not set any store by them. This is humans' biggest mistake, and science is the product of taking ourselves too seriously. After all, we are only baldy apes with large brains, and we are not even the most intelligent or evolved species on this planet. Whales and dolphins have that accolade thanks to their society being over 40 million years old, while ours is a mere quarter of a million. Religion is a salve for not knowing everything - we can always blame "God" for what actually happens. It is a distortion of the truth, because all religions believe that man is made "in the image of God". However, "God" is just a benign force field that permeates everything, and therefore has no image. Jeez! 
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Moti
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| graphicequaliser wrote: | Moti - 2 points
1) "The devil makes work for idle hands". If you are a nihilist or you believe that life spawned on planets by pure random chance, then you are "taking a back seat" with regards to life philosophy, and guess who'll be driving you!
2) The natural law is you should eat what you kill, otherwise don't kill it.
My own belief is simple - the space-time continuum has a benign energy associated with it, that favours the development of intelligent life within its fabric. Why? I don't know, but it fits the observable facts. As products of this benign energy force, we are chasing our own tails trying to analyse it. It may be fun, but any theories we may form about the nature of the universe, can only be transient, and one should not set any store by them. This is humans' biggest mistake, and science is the product of taking ourselves too seriously. After all, we are only baldy apes with large brains, and we are not even the most intelligent or evolved species on this planet. Whales and dolphins have that accolade thanks to their society being over 40 million years old, while ours is a mere quarter of a million. Religion is a salve for not knowing everything - we can always blame "God" for what actually happens. It is a distortion of the truth, because all religions believe that man is made "in the image of God". However, "God" is just a benign force field that permeates everything, and therefore has no image. Jeez! |
"The frog in the well" logic illustrates that a frog residing in the atmosphere and boundary of a well cannot imagine the length and breadth of the gigantic ocean. Such a frog, when informed of the gigantic length and breadth of the ocean, first of all does not believe that there is such an ocean, and if someone assures him that factually there is such a thing, the frog then begins to measure it by imagination by means of pumping its belly as far as possible, with the result that the tiny abdomen of the frog bursts and the poor frog dies without any experience of the actual ocean. Similarly, the material scientists also want to challenge the inconceivable potency of the Lord by measuring Him with their froglike brains and their scientific achievements, but at the end they simply die unsuccessfully, like the frog.
[Srila Prabhupada from Srimad Bhagavatam 2.5.10] |
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blackcat
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So we should logically conclude that when our present body dies, we get another body. |
That's the best non-sequitor I have ever heard!  |
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heart-earth
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: the present |
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Yesterday is history.
Tomorrow a mystery.
Today is a gift.
That's why it's called the present!
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but you can`t fool all the people all the time." |
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Moti
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| blackcat wrote: | | Quote: | | So we should logically conclude that when our present body dies, we get another body. |
That's the best non-sequitor I have ever heard! |
Why non-sequitur?
Is it not a fact that you [the soul] have changed bodies in this life many times?
We've experienced in our practical lifetime that we were very tiny, youth, we had a small body, child's body: kaumaram yauvanam. Then youthful body, then we're having old man, old woman's body, like this. So practically speaking, this body is constantly changing. Although Krsna gives this example because He is trying to explain a very fine point of understanding, namely transmigration of the soul: that in reality the body that we have is changing at every moment, at every instant. But we can not see that because our consciousness is not so sharp to pick up when there's change of body. But Krsna explains, "You can see that you had a small body, now you have a youthful body, now you have an old man's body." Actually there is a continuum of change at every moment. So this is the changing material body, and the mind likewise is changing, but the soul, the living entity, is not changing. And this is experienced practically by the fact that in spite of so many changes of body that we had we've still the same person. Just like we can remember when we were young children playing in the park or at the streets, and then older, older, older; going to school; older, family life; older, now retired; now like this. So like this the body is changing in so many ways but still I'm the same person. This can be practically experienced. Everyone has this understanding: different bodies but you're still the same person. |
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Emmanuel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: Darwinism is a myth |
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I saw the video and agreed with what Moti was saying.
Darwinism also had some very dodgy views on race and women. he even admitted himself that it was just a theory with some unconclusive evidence.
The New world order have embraced Darwinism though because it means we a reduced to the life of animals: eating, mating, sleeping and defending. Just consumers that are easy to enslave and have no independent higher thinking.
I am a vegetarian and a believer, after stopping eating meat I began to feel cleaner, less dull headed and full of energy.
More on the myths of Darwinism here:
http://www.alternativescience.com/
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Emmanuel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Bongo man,
I am a believer in Jah-Allah-God-Krsna
I believe in truth, beauty, love and energy.
Energy, can not be destroyed, only transferred. What the video describes is the law of cause and effect, in Vedic terms: karma.
Something also touched on by the movie "the Matrix"
The chaotic state of the world today may well be caused by the greed, violence and destruction casued to other human beings, animals and the planet itself.
Do you believe in gravity?
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heart-earth
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: responds =action :-) |
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Bongo
The life of an evil is alive,and has always lived with the devil.
Is´nt there an old saying "that to conquer your aponent (that spelling)
you have to act like it ?
its gonna be alright .....I wonder if does saying it mean political
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zappasearcher
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'll throw my worthless tuppence in here as I posted earlier.
I am a believer in Shiva/Shakti so a sort of hindu/tantric/shaman. I still very much regard myself as still in the student stage - I am no authority.
I believe if you can't kill an animal you shouldn't eat animals. If you can and do, then this is an action and will result in further action. action and it's results are neither good nor bad but we can perceive them as such.
Some people eat meat all their lives, have no spiritual belief etc, but I do not believe even that is a sure way to hell. All depends on the karma you have at that point.
Likewise, eating a perferably fruitarian diet (this has the least karma attached) and doing a spritual practice with devotion is no guarantee of a direct path to heaven either.
I think Moti's point in the video about the meat being ritually killed probably has some truth in it, tho' we have no direct proof. As you can tell from my above observations, I think the whole divine/demonic issue is entirely a matter of perspective.
I have recently just being discussing on another board the topic of Aghori sadhus (holymen of india). They are known for eating dead dogs, human brain etc, are these men also evil? If you think so you try checking out their philosphy. Personally I think they are a lot quicker and direct to God than Krishna, Jesus, Buddha or anyother path you care to amble along.
more infor on aghori http://www.adolphus.nl/sadhus/shiva.html
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Emmanuel
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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Zappasearcher
These sadhus you describe and Kali worshippers, are just worshipping demi gods.
Maybe they get a similiar power, from this kind of death ritual.
The same as satanic ritual. Hinduism has become a perverted form of Krishna Consciousness. Divide and ruling the people and giving people a God to worship material things.
Isnt it better to please the source of everything though rather than just some middle men?
Bongo:
No I dont think non believers are demoniac, but I think they are influenced by a demoniac force (as we are all to varying degrees)
Advertising, mainstream media, our education system, our water and air is even poisoned and is affected by a demoniac presence. All this contributes to a demoniac society where no one speaks up for the truth.
There is still time...
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Moti
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:54 am Post subject: |
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I will restate my original point:
The 911 truth movement and the Anti-NWO movement must wake up to the laws of Karma. Protesting a Police state while simultaneously supporting another is hypocrisy of the highest order! |
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Moti
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Darwinism is a myth |
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| la dahlia wrote: | I saw the video and agreed with what Moti was saying.
Darwinism also had some very dodgy views on race and women. he even admitted himself that it was just a theory with some unconclusive evidence.
The New world order have embraced Darwinism though because it means we a reduced to the life of animals: eating, mating, sleeping and defending. Just consumers that are easy to enslave and have no independent higher thinking.
I am a vegetarian and a believer, after stopping eating meat I began to feel cleaner, less dull headed and full of energy.
More on the myths of Darwinism here:
http://www.alternativescience.com/ |
Tis folly to be wise when illuminati meat head ignorance is bliss! |
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ian neal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Moti wrote: | I will restate my original point:
The 911 truth movement and the Anti-NWO movement must wake up to the laws of Karma. Protesting a Police state while simultaneously supporting another is hypocrisy of the highest order! |
You appear to assume that 'the 9/11 truth movement' is not currently awake. Many people within the movement will share an understanding of how we are all connected and how our actions have reactions or consequences: the web of life or what you call the laws of Karma. Others will believe this to be spiritual mumbo jumbo and have no time for it.
There is no 'must', only choices IMO. If we act hypocritically (and who amongst can say they are never hypocritical) life has a way of returning the consequences of this hypocracy back to us, so that eventaully we are forced to acknowledge our hypocracy and choose a different way. Ground hog day if you like.
There is no denying that for many, 9/11 truth does have a spiritual dimension and religion undoubtedly figures large in the war on terror, but I believe now this thread has moved away from 9/11 to such an extent that it should continue on an alternative forum such as the illusions forum.
I will leave it open for feedback.
Cheers
Ian |
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Moti
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| ian neal wrote: |
There is no 'must', only choices IMO.
Ian |
Well there is must. We must take birth, must get diseases, must get old and must die. We have our free will but we cannot violate the laws of karma and escape the reactions. What goes around MUST come around Ian, be sure about that.
You are free to ignorantly put your hand in a fire but you MUST get burnt.
You can violote the law and think that you got away with it but you MUST get punished when the authority catches up with you.
You get my drift?
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ian neal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks for eveyone's contribution. In my opinion this thread is no longer relevent to 9/11 or this forum and is therefore locked. Anyone wishing to continue is invited to do so at the illusions forum. |
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