The collapse of building seven was shown to a Dutch explosives expert who had never seen the video before and didn't know at the time that it was from Sept. 11. Many people have not seen this footage, especially overseas. The media seems to have avoided aring it over the years for some reason? Anyway, he was certain that it was a controlled demolition that had been planned by experts. Even after he was told that this occured on Sept. 11, he still didn't change his mind. He said it would've taken 30 to 40 people to have planned it. We know that Marvin Bush ran security there. Bomb sniffing dogs were abruptly removed and an unprecedented power down of the buildings took place just days before the attacks. Employees were surprised by the activity claiming that it had never happened before.
If people still can't place two & two together it's just plain sad. And I know that will come across as being an offensive statement but it really does scare and sadden me at the same time that so many people can be so easily fooled.
I think that this is very significant, this is not just the opinion of amateurs, this is a professional. I wonder what his opinion was on the towers, and to what extent it might have been shaped by pre-conceived views. He certainly questions several times about the video he is shown being of 9/11. He is obviously doubtful about the practicality of wiring up demolition charges in a burning building, but there is nothing to say they were not set beforehand.
It is important when presenting evidence to get the details correct, nothing destroys credibility like easily refutable statements. For instance, we do not know of any power downs in WTC7, only in the south tower from floor 50 upwards, and Marvin Bush did not "run the security" he had been a non-executive director of the security company, but left in 2000.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 486 Location: Manchester
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject:
Bushwacker, any chance of a source for that, as that makes a big difference to commonly used bits of evidence. _________________ The Peoples United Collective TPUC.ORG
Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 1959 Location: South London
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject:
Bushwacker wrote:
It is important when presenting evidence to get the details correct, nothing destroys credibility like easily refutable statements. For instance, we do not know of any power downs in WTC7, only in the south tower from floor 50 upwards, and Marvin Bush did not "run the security" he had been a non-executive director of the security company, but left in 2000.
Yeah! Extremely important or you shoot yourself in the foot.
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 486 Location: Manchester
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject:
Thanks. Theres plenty of bits like this, like AA77 going through 3 rings and the Pentagon workers carrying a suspicious box of debris (a triage tent) for example. They all need sorting out. _________________ The Peoples United Collective TPUC.ORG
Thanks. Theres plenty of bits like this, like AA77 going through 3 rings and the Pentagon workers carrying a suspicious box of debris (a triage tent) for example. They all need sorting out.
I haven't come across the triage tent, is that the explanation for the "blue tarp" carried by a group of people?
Thanks. Theres plenty of bits like this, like AA77 going through 3 rings and the Pentagon workers carrying a suspicious box of debris (a triage tent) for example. They all need sorting out.
I haven't come across the triage tent, is that the explanation for the "blue tarp" carried by a group of people?
It looks like a triage tent. If it was a box of debris... then it was a bloody lightweight one
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 486 Location: Manchester
Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject:
Yes the blue tarp is a triage tent being taken out and set up and not taken in to hide debris. If you look at the bottom you can see its hollow, light and it also matches the other blue triage tents placed out in some photos. An honest mistake I imagine but still circulating, even Jim Fetzer was using that mysterious box idea awhile ago, so these things need wide circulation to clear them up somehow. The lower pentagon 2 floors are apparently 1 ring and not separate, so the plane? went through just 2 walls not 3 rings. Explainable perhaps by the landing gear shaft in some pictures I believe.
Marvins exact position and exit of employment had escaped me thus far so many thanks for that. Doesnt make it quite so implicating does it, sadly? _________________ The Peoples United Collective TPUC.ORG
If you use firefox you can right click and copy image location
Dont know if IE has that. _________________ Positive...energy...activates...constant...elevation. (Gravediggaz)
Yes the blue tarp is a triage tent being taken out and set up and not taken in to hide debris. If you look at the bottom you can see its hollow, light and it also matches the other blue triage tents placed out in some photos. An honest mistake I imagine but still circulating, even Jim Fetzer was using that mysterious box idea awhile ago, so these things need wide circulation to clear them up somehow. The lower pentagon 2 floors are apparently 1 ring and not separate, so the plane? went through just 2 walls not 3 rings. Explainable perhaps by the landing gear shaft in some pictures I believe.
Marvins exact position and exit of employment had escaped me thus far so many thanks for that. Doesnt make it quite so implicating does it, sadly?
Thanks very much for that, I spent a long time staring at the "blue tarp" and wondering what something so obviously lightweight was being used for. Good point also about the ground floor of the Pentagon being a single ring. Yes, the exact details about Marvin are not such headline news as you might first think. As often happens, the devil is in the detail.
I just wanted to add something. It seems like anytime there’s a link to a an article that’s supposed to be a debunk of a conspiracy we all seem to just assume that the debunk must automatically be true. I’m not saying that it’s not. But we must keep in mind that disinformation also comes in the form of counter-misinformation and just because someone posts an article or link that allegedly debunks Loose Change or something else doesn’t immediately mean that their information is necessarily any better or more accurate. If there are crooked members of the government orchestrating false flag terror you can bet your ass that they’re also disseminating information that casts them in the best light in terms of conspiracy theories that are quickly gaining ground. To conclude, just be careful about accepting every “debunk” that you come across. Learn from the shoddy job that Popular Mechanics has done.
In many cases the so-called "debunk" can be debunked.
I just wanted to add something. It seems like anytime there’s a link to a an article that’s supposed to be a debunk of a conspiracy we all seem to just assume that the debunk must automatically be true. I’m not saying that it’s not. But we must keep in mind that disinformation also comes in the form of counter-misinformation and just because someone posts an article or link that allegedly debunks Loose Change or something else doesn’t immediately mean that their information is necessarily any better or more accurate. If there are crooked members of the government orchestrating false flag terror you can bet your ass that they’re also disseminating information that casts them in the best light in terms of conspiracy theories that are quickly gaining ground. To conclude, just be careful about accepting every “debunk” that you come across. Learn from the shoddy job that Popular Mechanics has done.
In many cases the so-called "debunk" can be debunked.
The arrogance with which the initial debunk is touted can make one question the veracity of the original information. I think its a good thing as it gets you to re-assess and causes people to focus on their best evidence etc. When so many people attacked Loose Change 2 so vehemently i felt it best not to link to it/hand it out for a while i must admit.
In many cases these sites are just lying to refute every claim thats made, using any 'evidence' they can unearth however false. Each claim in LC would of course cause major problems for the PTB.
Loose change 2 does have its flaws and some spurious claims but if i want a debunking of it i prefer the more balanced ones like the Hoffman correction to the venomous, desperate nonsense believed by our resident winker posse. The ones who have boldly stated that the 911 Commission was fair and is totally correct... _________________ Positive...energy...activates...constant...elevation. (Gravediggaz)
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:35 am Post subject:
Only the truth cannot be debunked, it always stands out
Many people are not even aware of the existance of building 7, let alone its collapse
When shown it, invariably the reaction is "OMG! Demolition!", Ive never had a person not
This "nothing to it" attitude of the OC supporters is nothing more than clogging up the net with noise and lullabying those who would rather not have to know about WTC anything
A good development for the campaign, this guy is sincere, Jay-ref checked him out but couldnt refute him, he is an expert _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject:
Absolutely top class!
the question now is not "Was WTC7 a controlled demolition?"
but: "why has the controlled demolition of WTC7 been covered up and who could have done it in the circumstances?" _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 486 Location: Manchester
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject:
Has anyone gone through the link Waking Life brought up?
It contains alot, the original debunking film it comes from with evidence pro hani Hanjour as a pilot, Loosechange debunking and much more. The original and full Jowenko excerpt, plus contact details for 3 experts and 1 other I cant track down. Has anyone contacted Jowenko or others yet?
I feel someone official from the Scholars should contact him and see if he is still agreeable to this premise and our endevours, as he could be our best bet yet. Any takers HE, Fetzer etc?
The full wtc 7 interview clip (NEEDS TRANSLATION IF ANY HERE CAN)
cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/str...tra-hi.asf
Comes from this site :
omroep.vara.nl/tvradioint...topic=4177
An English version of the Anti-conspiracy documentary that the wtc 7 excerpt above comes from, is here:
cgi.omroep.nl/cgi-bin/str...060911.asf
The JREF debunker had this to say of the documentary
"Last sunday the Dutch documentary series "Zembla" presented a documentary on the conspiracy theories surrounding the September 11 (I don't have to say the year) attacks, and claims made in Loose Change. They effectively demolished many of the Loose Change myths.
For example, to investigate the claim that someone with experience with small airplanes and a bit of home computer flight simulator practice couldn't possibly have reliably hit the Pentagon with a Boeing 757, they got someone with experience with small airplanes and home computer flight simulators and put him into one of those ultra-realistic flight simulators to train pilots and tested whether he could. And he could hit the Pentagon in the right spot, again, and again and again. Proving what should have been pretty obvious, IMHO: crashing an airplane is far easier than landing it safely.
They also got an demolition expert to look at the footage of the WTC collapse, and he assured that there was absolutely no way it could have been done with explosives.
Unfortunately he seemed also absolutely sure that the collapse of WTC7 was the result of explosive demolition. And the documentary also made a big issue of unusual stock market trades that seems to suggest there were people having foreknowledge of the event. Unfortunately they didn't ask a statistician whether these things were really all that unusual.
It is an interesting documentary nonetheless, putting to rest at least some of the myths. "
=======
2 other experts, structural engineers are also mentioned by the debunkers as supporters thus far of the CD angle on wtc 7. They should also be sought out imhho. (contact details below)
They are and said:
Quote:
"We simply don't know what happened in WTC7" says Mario Fontana, incumbent Professor at ETH institute for structural analysis and construction (IBK). During the last five years, only very few informations concerning the collapse of WTC7 were heard at conferences of structural engineers, he said. For him it is at least thinkable that a long lasting fire brought the building down. [...]
"In my opinion WTC7 was with the utmost probability brought down by controlled demolition done by experts" says Hugo Bachmann, Professor emeritus for structural analysis and construction at ETH. And also Jörg Schneider, another Professor emeritus for structural analysis and construction at ETH, interprets the small number of existing videos as indices that "WTC7 was with the utmost probability brought down by explosives".
Prof. Mario Fontana
Institut f. Baustatik und Konstruktion
Wolfgang-Pauli-Str. 15
ETH-Hönggerberg, HIL D 36.1
CH-8093 Zürich
Telefon: +41 1 633 31 73
Fax: +41 1 633 10 93
E-Mail: fontana@ibk.baug.ethz.ch
Mario Fontana
www.ibk.ethz.ch/fo/people/professor
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 3187 Location: Here to help!
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject:
Reflecter, if you go down to critics corner you will find Jay Ref contacted Jowenko yesterday and couldnt debunk him _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
Joined: 27 Mar 2006 Posts: 486 Location: Manchester
Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject:
I know but i wondered if many had watched the full film or more impotantly if they contacted Jowenko with support or further questions. That was all John. _________________ The Peoples United Collective TPUC.ORG
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