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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Comments on the Great Ally Meltdown? |
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| ian neal wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: | | If that's all it is and the Jewish Factor has nothing to do with it, why does Israel get special attention? There are countless nations that treat their neighbors or their own citizens poorly that deserve at least as much hateful attention. Why do you folks never seem to talk about China or N. Korea or Sudan or Cuba or Iran or Cambodia or... |
There in a nutshell is why I rarely bother engaging with you and other critics who post what is in my opinion illogical and ill thought out nonsense
In that one line you confuse so many issues.
1) You confuse 'the jewish factor' (whatever that is) with Israel. |
Israel is the Jewish state. Israel and the "Jewish factor" (whatever that is) are only seperable when you are specifically criticising Israeli policies. You don't do that. Since you don't it makes one wonder about your motives.
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2) You confuse the wider crimes of nation states such as China, N Korea, Cuba that have nothing to do with 9/11 (unless you know otherwise) with discussion of 9/11 and the war on terror. Whilst the crimes of nations states such as China, Sudan are of interest they are tangential to 9/11. There are connections between Israel and US backers of zionism (eg PNAC members) with 9/11 and the war on terror that are not there in the case of Cuba and Sudan. Maybe that it explains why Israel and zionism is discussed a lot here? |
There is no evidence that Israel had anything at all to do with 9/11. The PNAC people similarly had nothing to do with 9/11. All you have on them is an out-of-context quote. Tell us the truth...part of the reason you don't like PNAC is that some of them are Jewish and all of them support the existence of the Jewish state. There are plenty of other states that could easily be argued as having materially supported 9/11. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan come to mind. One must ask why you have such a hard-on for Israel that you would implicate it in 9/11 while ignoring evidence that exists against other states?
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3) You use the term 'you folks' as if we are all one uniform mass when it is repeatedly explained and evidently clear that there is no 'you folks' towing a party line |
Yes, you have no party line...you're just asking questions right?
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Reply if you want, it is unlikely I will respond. I just wanted to explain why I usually ignore the bs that dominates so many threads in critics corner. You are a vampire of energy that I believe deliberately sets up illogical and repetative discussions to muddy the waters and sap 'our' time. Either that or you're a bit dim. Maybe even both. |
Demonization now? I'm a dim vampire? You can call me silly names all you like; they have no substance. OTOH I can call you and many others here anti-semites simply because it's what you do.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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John White
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Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | John White wrote: | | Quote: | | I have to disagree with you here. Anti-semitism is the discrimination against someone because they are Jewish |
Its actually broader than that: its discrimination against someone becuase they are a semite, that is a member of the semitic peoples
Therefore, anti-semitism is more properly discrimination against people whose genetic heritage links them to the semitic nations, and includes discrimination against arabs as well as jews.
Given the demonisation of Islam coming from the western elites at the moment, it is both ironic and strangely fitting that George Bush is an anti-semite |
The only people who actually believe this pedantic mis-representation are usually found burning crosses on the weekend.
-z |
Simply untrue, and in fact slanderous
Unless you can demonstrate that arab genetics have no relation to semitic people?
There is a clear distinction between a political movement (Zionism) and semitic genetics, and only those who wish to blur that distinction can argue differently. Ergo, should one wish to critic the one, it is not de facto prejudice against the other
However, I can hardly blame Jay Ref for his ignorance if he is not in the habit of questioning error presented as fact
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Free your Self and Free the World |
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gypsum
Moderate Poster
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Comments on the Great Ally Meltdown? |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | gypsum wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | Of course I thought you guys liked racists, homophobes and anti-semites posting ...............-z |
Shows what you know unless of course you are being deliberately dishonest, which you probably are.
You only have to search on my posts to see the clear distinction I make between zionism and jewish people and that I insist on on this site. Do you need me to explain the difference to you as well? |
"Zionism" is the beard the anti-semite hides behind.
Criticism of the governmental policies of Israel is not only valid but healthy. The marketplace of ideas, and the vetting that goes on there is perhaps the most important part of a free democracy. Going on about evil "zionists" is simple racism hiding behind an awfully thin disguise.
It may have worked for Clark Kent,...but you're no Clark Kent Ian. If you are truly dismayed by the reputation this *ahem* movement is getting for bedding down with bigots...you have some house cleaning to do right here.
-z |
I have to disagree with you here. Anti-semitism is the discrimination against someone because they are Jewish. I have never descriminated against anyone because of their religion. I do however despise Israel only because of the way they treat their neighbours and get away with it. This has nothing do with the fact that their population is Jewish.
Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. I wouldn't have had much of a problem with this had they not bulldozed Palestinian homes etc. So it is fair to say that I am anti-zionist, which has nothing to do with religion. It is not racist. |
Why are the Jewish people singled out as not being entitled to a homeland? Seems to me that you have clearly defined your position as anti-semitic.
First you correctly state: "Anti-semitism is the discrimination against someone because they are Jewish. "
...but then go on to state clearly that these people alone in the world are not entitled to a homeland.
That is by definition a description of anti-semitism. Your own definition.
-z |
Perhaps you'd like to re-read my post. Not once did I say that they 'are not entitled to a homeland'. Here's what I said since you clearly didn't bother reading it the first time
| Quote: | | Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. I wouldn't have had much of a problem with this had they not bulldozed Palestinian homes etc. |
Don't try to twist what people say Jay Ref. Poor show. |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | John White wrote: | | Quote: | | I have to disagree with you here. Anti-semitism is the discrimination against someone because they are Jewish |
Its actually broader than that: its discrimination against someone becuase they are a semite, that is a member of the semitic peoples
Therefore, anti-semitism is more properly discrimination against people whose genetic heritage links them to the semitic nations, and includes discrimination against arabs as well as jews.
Given the demonisation of Islam coming from the western elites at the moment, it is both ironic and strangely fitting that George Bush is an anti-semite |
The only people who actually believe this pedantic mis-representation are usually found burning crosses on the weekend.
-z |
Simply untrue, and in fact slanderous
Unless you can demonstrate that arab genetics have no relation to semitic people?
There is a clear distinction between a political movement (Zionism) and semitic genetics, and only those who wish to blur that distinction can argue differently. Ergo, should one wish to critic the one, it is not de facto prejudice against the other
However, I can hardly blame Jay Ref for his ignorance if he is not in the habit of questioning error presented as fact |
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ped‧ant /ˈpɛdnt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ped-nt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a person who makes an excessive or inappropriate display of learning.
2. a person who overemphasizes rules or minor details.
3. a person who adheres rigidly to book knowledge without regard to common sense.
Everyone knows what an anti-semite is John. Even you.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Did I just get called a pedant by a JREF'er? 
I understand your need for emotional catharsis Jay Ref, your a proud one after all and humility isnt something you have demonstrated in any abundance: the above "message" is after all the last stop of someone with no-where to go, other than admit they are wrong
I'd rather you went away, re-assesed your view of some crucial issues, and came back with a clearer, more accurate perspective: and therefore stopped being unconciously manipulated by propoganda
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Free your Self and Free the World
Last edited by John White on Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Comments on the Great Ally Meltdown? |
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| gypsum wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | gypsum wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | Of course I thought you guys liked racists, homophobes and anti-semites posting ...............-z |
Shows what you know unless of course you are being deliberately dishonest, which you probably are.
You only have to search on my posts to see the clear distinction I make between zionism and jewish people and that I insist on on this site. Do you need me to explain the difference to you as well? |
"Zionism" is the beard the anti-semite hides behind.
Criticism of the governmental policies of Israel is not only valid but healthy. The marketplace of ideas, and the vetting that goes on there is perhaps the most important part of a free democracy. Going on about evil "zionists" is simple racism hiding behind an awfully thin disguise.
It may have worked for Clark Kent,...but you're no Clark Kent Ian. If you are truly dismayed by the reputation this *ahem* movement is getting for bedding down with bigots...you have some house cleaning to do right here.
-z |
I have to disagree with you here. Anti-semitism is the discrimination against someone because they are Jewish. I have never descriminated against anyone because of their religion. I do however despise Israel only because of the way they treat their neighbours and get away with it. This has nothing do with the fact that their population is Jewish.
Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. I wouldn't have had much of a problem with this had they not bulldozed Palestinian homes etc. So it is fair to say that I am anti-zionist, which has nothing to do with religion. It is not racist. |
Why are the Jewish people singled out as not being entitled to a homeland? Seems to me that you have clearly defined your position as anti-semitic.
First you correctly state: "Anti-semitism is the discrimination against someone because they are Jewish. "
...but then go on to state clearly that these people alone in the world are not entitled to a homeland.
That is by definition a description of anti-semitism. Your own definition.
-z |
Perhaps you'd like to re-read my post. Not once did I say that they 'are not entitled to a homeland'. Here's what I said since you clearly didn't bother reading it the first time
| Quote: | | Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. I wouldn't have had much of a problem with this had they not bulldozed Palestinian homes etc. |
Don't try to twist what people say Jay Ref. Poor show. |
I never twisted a single word. All I did is make bold the parts that I want you to look into the mirror, recite, then try to understand yourself. You said: | Quote: |
- Anti-semitism is the discrimination against someone because they are Jewish.
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You then assert:
| Quote: |
I have never descriminated against anyone because of their religion.
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Okay...let's read on....
| Quote: | | Zionism is a political movement among Jews, although supported by some non-Jews and not supported by some Jews, [b]which maintains that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. I wouldn't have had much of a problem with this had they not bulldozed Palestinian homes etc. So it is fair to say that I am anti-zionist, which has nothing to do with religion. It is not racist. |
Sorry the way you practise anti-zionism is itself anti-semetic. There is no difference. You cannot say in the same breath that you have never discriminated against a Jew while advocating discrimination against all Jews. It's an insane self-contradiction.
Congratulations, you are the target audience of the trooth movement; a person incapable of understanding what their own words actually mean.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There is no difference. You cannot say in the same breath that you have never discriminated against a Jew while advocating discrimination against all Jews. It's an insane self-contradiction. |
I wonder where in this thread Mr White has advocated discrimination against all jews...?
It is fair to say that there have (more in the US as far as I've seen) been some rather dodgy ideas among a minority of those in the 'conspiracy' fraternity, though that itself says nothing - nazi types have attached themselves to the green movement, but only an idiot would use that to say eco types are inherently fascist.
I find it very curious how criticism of Israel (a state with a very poor track record regarding the treatment of Pelestinians - and I'm referring to the state here) generates shrill cries of anti-semetism in some quarters. Just as critics accuse truthers of finding a conspiracy hiding under every rock, it seems some find an anti-semite everywhere they look.
The distinction between zionism and judaism per se has been well understood for a long time. In fact, zionism itself arose from a very understandable desire for a homeland to escape perscution; it wasn't a bad idea given some of the pogroms going down at the time. Theodore Herzl was also up for considering Argentina, so Zionism wasn't originally solely focused on Palestine either. But bear in mind political zionism (as opposed to the notion of returning to the homeland at some point, perhaps in conjunction with further developments within the grand plan of God - at the 'right time') is a comparatively new ideology. Many jews did not and have not a desire to live in Israel. However, if the ideology is interpreted as giving an inalienable right to a territory which was already inhabited and which has involved the enforced displacement of said inhabitants, it is ludicrous to allege that objections to such an ideology involve a blanket attack upon the religion that spawned it (by the way, I assume Jay Ref views any opponents of wahhabism as nefarious antiIslamics - an attack on Wahhabism must be an attack on all muslims, right?).
A train of thought that exists within a religion (one emeshed with political considerations - John White is correct to say not all Zionists are jews) does not represent that religion itself. That much should be obvious to anyone. Judaism is not a monolith. Jews interpret their faith (and accompanying politic viewpoints) in a wide variety of ways, and it is patronising and innaccurate to describe 'the jews' as a singular body. To say that anti-semites simply hide behind anti-zionism is a bit like saying those who oppose abortion clinic bombing Christian extremists, or the lunatic born-again fundamentalists that keep getting into the White House, are simply expressing hardcore hatred for ALL Christians.
Or do you, Jay Ref, think that the fact actions or ideologies may be pitched as part of a religious imperative makes them immune from criticism?
Do you think that all those people who think Osama Bin Ladin and chums are total rascals are simply obscuring their hardcore anti-Islamic sentiments?
Personally:
I despise the actions of the state of Israel
I despise the actions of the United States of America
I despise the actions of state of Saudi Arabia
I'm not a big fan of the Socialist Workers Party
nonsense! I'd better become a Zoroastrian or Buddhist quick, as I'm obviously deeply prejudiced against ALL jews, christians, muslims and atheists!
_________________
It's a man's life in MOSSAD
Last edited by Dogsmilk on Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| wobbler wrote: | | Quote: | | There is no difference. You cannot say in the same breath that you have never discriminated against a Jew while advocating discrimination against all Jews. It's an insane self-contradiction. |
I wonder where in this thread Mr White has advocated discrimination against all jews...?
It is fair to say that there have (more in the US as far as I've seen) been some rather dodgy ideas among a minority of those in the 'conspiracy' fraternity, though that itself says nothing - nazi types have attached themselves to the green movement, but only an idiot would use that to say eco types are inherently fascist.
I find it very curious how criticism of Israel (a state with a very poor track record regarding the treatment of Pelestinians - and I'm referring to the state here) generates shrill cries of anti-semetism in some quarters. Just as critics accuse truthers of finding a conspiracy hiding under every rock, it seems some find an anti-semite everywhere they look.
The distinction between zionism and judaism per se has been well understood for a long time. In fact, zionism itself arose from a very understandable desire for a homeland to escape perscution; it wasn't a bad idea given some of the pogroms going down at the time. Theodore Herzl was also up for considering Argentina, so Zionism wasn't originally solely focused on Palestine either. But bear in mind political zionism (as opposed to the notion of returning to the homeland at some point, perhaps in conjunction with further developments within the grand plan of God - at the 'right time') is a comparatively new ideology. Many jews did not and have not a desire to live in Israel. However, if the ideology is interpreted as giving an inalienable right to a territory which was already inhabited and which has involved the enforced displacement of said inhabitants, it is ludicrous to allege that objections to such an ideology involve a blanket attack upon the religion that spawned it (by the way, I assume Jay Ref views any opponents of wahhabism as nefarious antiIslamics - an attack on Wahhabism must be an attack on all muslims, right?).
A train of thought that exists within a religion (one emeshed with political considerations - John White is correct to say not all Zionists are jews) does not represent that religion itself. That much should be obvious to anyone. Judaism is not a monolith. Jews interpret their faith (and accompanying politic viewpoints) in a wide variety of ways, and it is patronising and innaccurate to describe 'the jews' as a singular body. To say that anti-semites simply hide behind anti-zionism is a bit like saying those who oppose abortion clinic bombing Christian extremists, or the lunatic born-again fundamentalists that keep getting into the White House, are simply expressing hardcore hatred for ALL Christians.
Or do you, Jay Ref, think that the fact actions or ideologies may be pitched as part of a religious imperative think that makes them immune from criticism?
Do you think that all those people who think Osama Bin Ladin and chums are total rascals are simply obscuring their hardcore anti-Islamic sentiments?
Personally:
I despise the actions of the state of Israel
I despise the actions of the United States of America
I despise the actions of state of Saudi Arabia
I'm not a big fan of the Socialist Workers Party
nonsense! I'd better become a Zoroastrian or Buddhist quick, as I'm obviously deeply prejudiced against ALL jews, christians, muslims and atheists! |
Reading comprehension is clearly not a priority among the truthy crowd.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps.
I'm not, and have never identified myself as, a 'truther' , so can only assume that comment doesn't refer to me.
Some critics also display a poor grasp of reasoning, logic, history and religion.
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It's a man's life in MOSSAD |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Comments on the Great Ally Meltdown? |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: | | If that's all it is and the Jewish Factor has nothing to do with it, why does Israel get special attention? There are countless nations that treat their neighbors or their own citizens poorly that deserve at least as much hateful attention. Why do you folks never seem to talk about China or N. Korea or Sudan or Cuba or Iran or Cambodia or... |
There in a nutshell is why I rarely bother engaging with you and other critics who post what is in my opinion illogical and ill thought out nonsense
In that one line you confuse so many issues.
1) You confuse 'the jewish factor' (whatever that is) with Israel. |
Israel is the Jewish state. Israel and the "Jewish factor" (whatever that is) are only seperable when you are specifically criticising Israeli policies. You don't do that. Since you don't it makes one wonder about your motives.
| Quote: |
2) You confuse the wider crimes of nation states such as China, N Korea, Cuba that have nothing to do with 9/11 (unless you know otherwise) with discussion of 9/11 and the war on terror. Whilst the crimes of nations states such as China, Sudan are of interest they are tangential to 9/11. There are connections between Israel and US backers of zionism (eg PNAC members) with 9/11 and the war on terror that are not there in the case of Cuba and Sudan. Maybe that it explains why Israel and zionism is discussed a lot here? |
There is no evidence that Israel had anything at all to do with 9/11. The PNAC people similarly had nothing to do with 9/11. All you have on them is an out-of-context quote. Tell us the truth...part of the reason you don't like PNAC is that some of them are Jewish and all of them support the existence of the Jewish state. There are plenty of other states that could easily be argued as having materially supported 9/11. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan come to mind. One must ask why you have such a hard-on for Israel that you would implicate it in 9/11 while ignoring evidence that exists against other states?
| Quote: |
3) You use the term 'you folks' as if we are all one uniform mass when it is repeatedly explained and evidently clear that there is no 'you folks' towing a party line |
Yes, you have no party line...you're just asking questions right?
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Reply if you want, it is unlikely I will respond. I just wanted to explain why I usually ignore the bs that dominates so many threads in critics corner. You are a vampire of energy that I believe deliberately sets up illogical and repetative discussions to muddy the waters and sap 'our' time. Either that or you're a bit dim. Maybe even both. |
Demonization now? I'm a dim vampire? You can call me silly names all you like; they have no substance. OTOH I can call you and many others here anti-semites simply because it's what you do.
-z |
You are providing plenty of evidence that you are a bit dim and a vampire of energy just in this latest post
But you have not given any evidence at all that I am an anti-semite.
You have 1000 posts to choose from. You have a search function. Show me some examples of what you are talking about. Put up or shut up.
Failure to back up or withdraw your slander will probably see you permanently deleted. You have till the end of the weekend. You do work weekends don't you? |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Comments on the Great Ally Meltdown? |
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| ian neal wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | | ian neal wrote: | | chipmunk stew wrote: | | If that's all it is and the Jewish Factor has nothing to do with it, why does Israel get special attention? There are countless nations that treat their neighbors or their own citizens poorly that deserve at least as much hateful attention. Why do you folks never seem to talk about China or N. Korea or Sudan or Cuba or Iran or Cambodia or... |
There in a nutshell is why I rarely bother engaging with you and other critics who post what is in my opinion illogical and ill thought out nonsense
In that one line you confuse so many issues.
1) You confuse 'the jewish factor' (whatever that is) with Israel. |
Israel is the Jewish state. Israel and the "Jewish factor" (whatever that is) are only seperable when you are specifically criticising Israeli policies. You don't do that. Since you don't it makes one wonder about your motives.
| Quote: |
2) You confuse the wider crimes of nation states such as China, N Korea, Cuba that have nothing to do with 9/11 (unless you know otherwise) with discussion of 9/11 and the war on terror. Whilst the crimes of nations states such as China, Sudan are of interest they are tangential to 9/11. There are connections between Israel and US backers of zionism (eg PNAC members) with 9/11 and the war on terror that are not there in the case of Cuba and Sudan. Maybe that it explains why Israel and zionism is discussed a lot here? |
There is no evidence that Israel had anything at all to do with 9/11. The PNAC people similarly had nothing to do with 9/11. All you have on them is an out-of-context quote. Tell us the truth...part of the reason you don't like PNAC is that some of them are Jewish and all of them support the existence of the Jewish state. There are plenty of other states that could easily be argued as having materially supported 9/11. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan come to mind. One must ask why you have such a hard-on for Israel that you would implicate it in 9/11 while ignoring evidence that exists against other states?
| Quote: |
3) You use the term 'you folks' as if we are all one uniform mass when it is repeatedly explained and evidently clear that there is no 'you folks' towing a party line |
Yes, you have no party line...you're just asking questions right?
| Quote: |
Reply if you want, it is unlikely I will respond. I just wanted to explain why I usually ignore the bs that dominates so many threads in critics corner. You are a vampire of energy that I believe deliberately sets up illogical and repetative discussions to muddy the waters and sap 'our' time. Either that or you're a bit dim. Maybe even both. |
Demonization now? I'm a dim vampire? You can call me silly names all you like; they have no substance. OTOH I can call you and many others here anti-semites simply because it's what you do.
-z |
You are providing plenty of evidence that you are a bit dim and a vampire of energy just in this latest post
But you have not given any evidence at all that I am an anti-semite.
You have 1000 posts to choose from. You have a search function. Show me some examples of what you are talking about. Put up or shut up.
Failure to back up or withdraw your slander will probably see you permanently deleted. You have till the end of the weekend. You do work weekends don't you? |
Ian,
You've been wanting an excuse to ban me for quite some time. Now you have it. So go ahead and do it. I have provided evidence galore for every assertion I have ever made on this site. Are you an anti-semite? Of course you are. You will yourself never believe it just as you will never believe all the obvious evidence pointing out thr truth...real truth...of the historical event known simply as "9/11". There is nothing that I can say that you will believe so why try? You will simply believe as you will. A fantasy world is after all safe inside your head. Like a turtle you can duck inside and feel safe. Hey it's your life man, do as you like.
The question of your antisemitism is however a good subject for my departure from this site. I have clearly upset many people by attempting to intrude into their fantsies with hard and uncomfortable facts. Now it's your turn. I truly believe that you think you are fair and unbiased as far as the Jews go. You have acted admirably in removing the "zionazi" and "kike" posts...but I think it's mainly because you are smart enough to know that these overt types hurt the image of your movement.
For me what points to your anti-semitic bias is your insistence in blaming Israel for 9/11. You don't blame the Saudis or the Afghans even though there is evidence of their involvement. No, you point the finger at a nation that has endured decades of Arab terrorism and claim that their very existence is the cause of the terrorism! If you were truly unbiased you would understand that murdering innocent civilians in the name of a cause...any cause...is simply wrong. Fundamentally wrong.
Similarly accusing innocent people of mass-murder, bullhorning memorial services, and ignoring evidence while clinging to a fantasy that isn't even internally consistent is factually, logically, and morally wrong.
The point is not that you are an anti-semite Ian, the point is that the entire truth movement is entwined intimately with an anti-Jewish, anti-American, and pro-Islamic terrorist libel. It is a movement of the credulous, bigotted, and paranoid led by confirmed con artists. The use of the word "truth" by this movement is an insult to the English language.
So ban me Ian. Do it. You've all been itching to remove the true voices of dissent and reason from this site. Why else create a Critic's Corner unless it was to mute the debate? May as well just delete the CC altogether because if you think other critics who post here will leave the issue of your movements' ties to the Willis Cartos' and Stormfronts' of this world alone you are sadly mistaken.
Face it Ian. Your precious movement is n ot only a lie, it's a hateful lie.
The ball is in your court. You can man up and address the issues I've brought up here or you can do the cowardly Dylanesque response and ban me.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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You've shown your ignorance of what the very term means and then smear Ian again?
Don't think your self justifying "poor me" act is in anyway convincing, because it ain't: and I havnt forgotten how less than a fourtnight ago you where attempting to smear 9/11 truthers as "mentally ill" by supporting fascistic interpretations of psychology: though you backed off from that very swift when I exposed where those ideas come from
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | You've shown your ignorance of what the very term means and then smear Ian again?
Don't think your self justifying "poor me" act is in anyway convincing, because it ain't: and I havnt forgotten how less than a fourtnight ago you where attempting to smear 9/11 truthers as "mentally ill" by supporting fascistic interpretations of psychology: though you backed off from that very swift when I exposed where those ideas come from |
Well you act just like someone who is suffering from Paranoid Personality Dissorder. That means there is more than enough evidence available to me to make this observation. I may be wrong, but it seems to have struck a nerve with you. In short; "Methinks thou protesteth too much".
As for your anti-semitism...well it's clearly more overt and less refined than Ian's version. I can see why he's in charge and you will never be. You pedantic misrepresentation of the term "anti-semitism" is an argument straight out of the Stromfront.org talking points. You lot do not like to face real facts about anything so I have no illusions about your abiliity towards introspection. You have none,...and while that's sad for you in your strange and lonely place on the margins of society,...I could quite happily care less.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Your actions trying to provoke being banned so you can use it as propoganda on your JREF forum (etc) shows you to truly be ethically polluted
The reality is Jay Ref: YOU are the fanatic, and to be honest I pity you
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chek
Mega Poster
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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JayRef, your hopeless sophistry only serves to demostrate you couldn't critically think your way out of a wet paper bag.
Your inept smear tactics only make you look (even more) foolish. |
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conspiracy analyst
Trustworthy Freedom Fighter
Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: The fascism of old... |
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was anti-semitic and anti-jewish.
Modern fascism, the fascism of the new world order is officially anti-fascist and pro-jewish (although they mean zionist).
Criticising the air base known as Israel labels you with a race-hate 'crime'.
A crime manufactured by the US propaganda war machine which acts in a 'progressive' manner liberating the oppressed from...dictators.
In the process if a few million are made homeless and have no right to return and end up living like the jews of old who cares.
Modern fascism has just worn its clothes inside out... |
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John White
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 3187
Location: Here to help!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Ironically, this thread is becomming:
"Comments on the Great Jay Ref Meltdown"
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | Ironically, this thread is becomming:
"Comments on the Great Jay Ref Meltdown" |
How so?
I'm the one being threatened. I haven't ranted or threatened...I'm just being removed from this site for telling the truth. You want some irony there it is. I'm being forcibly removed by the authority here...and you call me fascist!
ROFLMAO!
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Comments on the Great Ally Meltdown? |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | ...... Are you an anti-semite? Of course you are.
The question of your antisemitism is however a good subject for my departure from this site.............
For me what points to your anti-semitic bias is your insistence in blaming Israel for 9/11. |
Let's be clear here Jayref. I'm looking for evidence of MY anti-semiticism,
You have 1000 posts to select from and anywhere else I may have written
Evidence please. Where do I insist on blaming Israel for 9/11?
| Jay Ref wrote: | | If you were truly unbiased you would understand that murdering innocent civilians in the name of a cause...any cause...is simply wrong. Fundamentally wrong. |
Evidence that I don't understand this?
| Jay Ref wrote: | | Similarly accusing innocent people of mass-murder, bullhorning memorial services, and ignoring evidence while clinging to a fantasy that isn't even internally consistent is factually, logically, and morally wrong. |
Which innocent people are you thinking of? Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney? I say there is a prima facie case against the Bush administration. I have never bullhorned anyone, unless you have evidence to the counter
| Jay Ref wrote: | | The point is not that you are an anti-semite Ian,...... |
I'm afraid on this, it is precisely the point, put up or withdraw and apologise or be banned. Your choice.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | ......... the point is that the entire truth movement is entwined intimately with an anti-Jewish, anti-American, and pro-Islamic terrorist libel. -z |
I address this point earlier in this thread. This site is not anti-jewish, anti-american or anti-any nationality. It is anti-terrorism in all its forms
| Jay Ref wrote: | | You've all been itching to remove the true voices of dissent and reason from this site. Why else create a Critic's Corner unless it was to mute the debate? |
Remind me. What are you dissenting against exactly? I have explained at length why the critics corner was created. Search for the relevent thread and I will explain to you again REAL SLOW
| Jay Ref wrote: | | May as well just delete the CC altogether because if you think other critics who post here will leave the issue of your movements' ties to the Willis Cartos' and Stormfronts' of this world alone you are sadly mistaken. |
If others (critics and supporters alike) wish to discuss the connections between far right, fascist groups and a small section of the 9/11 truth movement and how this campaign is fundamentally as a point of principle not tied these groups and is opposed to fascism, neo-nazism and race hatred I will happily explain again what is explained in the about us section of this forum.
No it will only be you that gets banned unless you (1) provide the evidence or (2) withdraw your accusation and apologise |
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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It is unreasonable to ask me to parse thousands of posts to find evidence that you are an anti-semite Ian. You run a website dedicated to a movement that epitomizes an anti-semitic bias.
Let's cut thru the bullsh!t shall we?
Answer these few questions:
- Do you believe the 9/11 attacks were done either by or for the nation of Israel?
- Is the nation of Israel a legitimate state?
- Are the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion accurate?
I'm not going to play your data mining game, not because I don't think there's evidence of your anti-semitism, but because there's clearly none you will accept and I simply don't have the time. There are 3 questions above. Simple questions. It will take you about 30 seconds to answer them. No games. No scavenger hunts. Answer them if you honestly think you are just a misunderstood fellow. Ignore them and ban me if you are not.
You're the boss here Ian, do as you like. But do what you mean to do already...nonsense or get off the pot my friend. You want my apology? I'll give it eagerly if you answer the questions in the only way that an anti-semite could not.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Ref wrote: | It is unreasonable to ask me to parse thousands of posts to find evidence that you are an anti-semite Ian. You run a website dedicated to a movement that epitomizes an anti-semitic bias.
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That's why there's a search function. Type zionism, select my name and posts not threads and you will see what I have to say.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | Do you believe the 9/11 attacks were done either by or for the nation of Israel? |
I don't believe a nation (be it Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Israel, the US or the UK) did 9/11. So in that sense the answer is NO. I believe individuals did 9/11. I believe other individuals aided and abetted the attacks and/or assisted in the cover up of the identity of the individuals who did the attacks. There is evidence (which may or may not prove to be true, That's what needs established by a further investigation) to link some of these individuals to different nation states including Israel but also including other nations such as Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the US and the UK.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | Is the nation of Israel a legitimate state? |
Depends how you define legitimate. Many of the actions of the state of Israel throughout its short history have been illegitimate, but then you could argue the same for many other nation states.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | Are the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion accurate? |
I've never read them, but to the extent I know of them, I would say they most certainly do not represent my views and their origin is deeply questionable.
So does that help? Are you now able to decide if I am anti-semite or not?
| Jay Ref wrote: | | I'm not going to play your data mining game, not because I don't think there's evidence of your anti-semitism, but because there's clearly none you will accept and I simply don't have the time. |
You're the one making the accusation, so the responsibility is on you to provide the evidence.
Interestingly the argument that there is no evidence I will accept and you don't have the time to find it, is precisely the one I would use to explain why I do not post in critics corner very often. But then I'm not the one making false accusations about you. My only accusation about you is that you are a bit dim and/or a vampire of honest people's energy by posting on this forum in the way that you do. And there is plenty of evidence for that accusation on this thread alone. I don't need to search for it. |
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Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Well you act just like someone who is suffering from Paranoid Personality Dissorder |
There you go again. Saying rude things to people from a position of total ignorance. DSM IV-TR page 690. As I've pointed out before, this diagnosis is entirely contingent on observation of interpersonal interaction (i.e. not the internet). Even so, given Mr Whites (reasonable, eloquent and thoughtful) posts here, you have simply zero grounds for that assertion. Try looking it up.
Honestly, Jay Ref, can't you be critical of the CT without constantly resorting to sarcasm, piss taking and wild allegations that everyone is 'crazy'. Your eternal preoccupation with the mental health of other people is itself interesting, though I simply wouldn't attempt to deduce anything or make wild judgements from an internet forum.
The next time you're denouncing Ian Neal and the ENTIRE truth movement as rabidly anti-semitic (with seemingly zero coherent evidence), you may wish to reflect on your oft stated conviction that truthers are paranoid.
Oh, I do apologise that I'd missed your post about criticism of Israel in my earlier response. I admit I'd only read the later ones when you started ranting and lost the plot.
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Jay Ref
Moderate Poster
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 511
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| ian neal wrote: | | Jay Ref wrote: | It is unreasonable to ask me to parse thousands of posts to find evidence that you are an anti-semite Ian. You run a website dedicated to a movement that epitomizes an anti-semitic bias.
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That's why there's a search function. Type zionism, select my name and posts not threads and you will see what I have to say.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | Do you believe the 9/11 attacks were done either by or for the nation of Israel? |
I don't believe a nation (be it Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Israel, the US or the UK) did 9/11. So in that sense the answer is NO. I believe individuals did 9/11. I believe other individuals aided and abetted the attacks and/or assisted in the cover up of the identity of the individuals who did the attacks. There is evidence (which may or may not prove to be true, That's what needs established by a further investigation) to link some of these individuals to different nation states including Israel but also including other nations such as Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the US and the UK.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | Is the nation of Israel a legitimate state? |
Depends how you define legitimate. Many of the actions of the state of Israel throughout its short history have been illegitimate, but then you could argue the same for many other nation states.
| Jay Ref wrote: | | Are the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion accurate? |
I've never read them, but to the extent I know of them, I would say they most certainly do not represent my views and their origin is deeply questionable.
So does that help? Are you now able to decide if I am anti-semite or not?
| Jay Ref wrote: | | I'm not going to play your data mining game, not because I don't think there's evidence of your anti-semitism, but because there's clearly none you will accept and I simply don't have the time. |
You're the one making the accusation, so the responsibility is on you to provide the evidence.
Interestingly the argument that there is no evidence I will accept and you don't have the time to find it, is precisely the one I would use to explain why I do not post in critics corner very often. But then I'm not the one making false accusations about you. My only accusation about you is that you are a bit dim and/or a vampire of honest people's energy by posting on this forum in the way that you do. And there is plenty of evidence for that accusation on this thread alone. I don't need to search for it. |
Amazing! I call you an antisemite by association...which you most clearly are BTW...and you want EVIDENCE! Yet you feel free to make the craziest and most vile accusations you possibly can against literally thousands of innocent people without the slightest evidence!
| Quote: | | You're the one making the accusation, so the responsibility is on you to provide the evidence. |
Funny stuff that....you are a biased creep who has conned himself into thinking the best of himself. Split personality may be an issue for you to discuss with your analyst...if you can find one you trust that is!
Hey Ian...I was just asking questions you know...and your non- answers to the first two prove that you simply can't bring yourself to give Israel an even break. Of course Israel is legitimate...UN recognition is all the definition you really need. From your first non-answer you imagine that the investigation you call for will ultimately tie Silverstein and the "neocons" to Israel. That's not an investigation you are calling for...it's a witch hunt.
Have you never wondered why the truthy crowd is so hung up on Silverstein? Why would he ever need to be inonit in the first place? Do you think a terrorist or rogue government needs the landlord's permission before he flies a plane into the building? No you guys are hung up on Silverstein because his name is Silverstein! If his name had been Jones you lot would have most likely ignored him. Anti-semitism is the only possible reason for this.
When you pre-judge someone based upon who they are, what they look like, or who they pray to or not it is overtly morally wrong.
This is what your movement does. What they do defines them. Your voluntary association with them similarly defines you. You can ban me from your site all you want but unless you change your ways you will never be anything more than a paranoid, bigotted scumbag Ian.
Have a good life, but if I ever see you bullhorning a memorial service I swear to sweet bloody jeebus I'll kick your stupid ass and you can put that in your pipe and toke on it.
-z
_________________
"Knowledge is good"
-Emil Faber
"God in heaven. Here's the hard-headed, evidence-only freak who will not, like we CTers, indulge himself in self-inflating, utterly misconceived fantasies." -kbo234 (who is NOT a nazi) briefly makes sense |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Is that it?
Is that your final word?
You have not shown that I am an anti-semite which is not surprising since I'm not one.
Unless you withdraw your accusation and apologise and apologise for your childish insults while you're at it, you will be banned
In the wake of the last week there will be a much tougher enforcement of this forum's requirement that all posters post with respect and tolerance of each other. There will also be tougher enforcement of the requirement that all posters follow this guidance.
Ally, Ally's critics and quite a few others please take note
Ta |
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stateofgrace
Moderate Poster
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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Your hypocrisy is blatant.
I agree with every single word Jay Ref says.
Ban me, feel free. Your entire movement is riddled with anti American, anti Israel, anti Jew sentiment.
You allow it all, you allow anybody to say whatever they like so long as they support your precious movement.
I poke my nose in here occasionally, simply shrug and move on; I post now requesting a ban. I despise the people you allow here. I despise your hypocrisy
This movement and its teenage followers are on a par with BNP. You are rabid racists.
I take my hat off to those that try to reason with you people, me, I have better things to do with my time. Your critics don't do it for you benefit, they do it for the lurchers. You are welcome to your ridiculous believes, you are welcome to the Ally’s, the blackcats.
Ban me, I really couldn't care less. |
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Dogsmilk
Mighty Poster
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 1616
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:11 am Post subject: |
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Must be a full moon.
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stateofgrace
Moderate Poster
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| wobbler wrote: | | Must be a full moon. |
You nailed it pal, yet another gem from the British trooth movement.
Sad, really sad. |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Excellent stuff. If you stand shoulder to shoulder with JayRef with regards to his accusation about me being an anti-semite, you will indeed be joining JayRef on your way out of here SoG. Anyone else? |
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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JayRef, State of Grace and a Big Gay Ally have all been banned.
Contratulations guys, you are the first posters in the forum's history to get banned other than those who were spamming porn. |
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Ignatz
Moderate Poster
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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| wobbler wrote: |
.... given Mr Whites (reasonable, eloquent and thoughtful) posts here, you have simply zero grounds for that assertion. Try looking it up.
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Er, Mr "reasonable" White spends a lot of time talking to himself and (I'd guess) his few sock puppets over on Malvern Messages. Check the member list. JW has 416 posts of approx 500 total. He's paranoid/delusional at best, so best not to mention him in reasonable conversation eh?
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