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Molten Metal Steel found at Ground Zero & WTC 7
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chek
Mega Poster

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject:

Anti-sophist wrote:

The emissivity of liquid aluminum is well understood.

Pure liquid aluminum doesn't emit light like what was seen. Luckily the liquid aluminum was almost certainly mixed with compounds that do.

chek, you've been at this way too long to be repeating this tired tripe. You already _know_ my response was going to be "it wasn't pure liquid aluminum" and yet you went to all this trouble anyway. Why?

No one ever claimed it was pure liquid aluminum. It was mixed with plenty of things that change the color. Anyone who thinks the liquid metal was "pure" and not mixed with impurities is deluding themselves. So don't compare what was seen at the scene with pure liquid aluminum.

Do me a favor, start up a roaring charcoal fire pit, inside a stainless steel bowl melt an aluminium can. Look at the color. Then throw a few pieces of paper and some wood inside the molten aluminum. Look at the color again.

This is a fun experiment for kids of all ages.

And by the same token you already know that Steve Jones performed these experiments with other likely additives in the molten aluminium which showed no uniform glow either.

As far as I know the material in the so-called solidified 'meteorites' has not been released for analysis yet, but it sure looks to all the world like oxidised ferrous material rather than the other most likely common candidates - aluminium or copper.

Why not just release all the evidence and have done with it?
Unless there's something to hide, of course.
That would be understandable.

Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel found at Ground Zero & WTC 7

Anti-sophist wrote:

This is the same Judy Wood who thinks the most likely scenario was a Star Wars Fusion Beam, right?
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=164002

Seems your friends are giving Judy a hard time!

Judy Wood's wrote:

This website is under construction. Due to the seriousness of this issue, we felt it was important to present the analysis and data as soon as possible. (Following the murder of my student, Michael Zebuhr, an extraordinary human being, I received an email stating, "we've done it before and we will do it again if need be.") Therefore, expect this website to be added to and updated over the next few days. Michael told me, "Whatever happens, don't ever stop pursuing this. It's too important." Michael, this is for you.
http://janedoe0911.tripod.com/StarWarsBeam1.html

_________________
We check the evidence and then archive it: www.911evidencebase.co.uk
Get the Steven E Jones reports >HERE<

aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster

Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

InfoWarrior wrote:

See you can't answer AS, you just keep quoting me like that proves something. How could there have been molten metal steel for 6 weeks? That steel beem, how could it have melted at tempatures that only got to peaks of 600 degrees. Also you forgot the part about the explaination to the steel beem. Also if you just mindlessly quote without any explaination your never going to prove anything.

Here's what I want to know: How do you make the mental leap from "melted steel for 6 weeks" to "the US govt. conspired to kill thousands of its own people".

If you've got a viable hypothesis as to what happened, let's hear it. However, it seems like you're using the creationist tactic of poking holes in a competing theory to cover up the weakness of your own.

InfoWarrior
Minor Poster

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: Molten Metal Steel

Ok, I will agree that was cut with a blow tourch, but that still doesn't explain the 1600 degree tempature of ground zero for six weeks after 9/11. It is described in the Steven Jones quote above that Patrick Brown posted. Also in my mind you haven't succesfully proven that the molten metal steel witnesses are misstaken. _________________ 9/11 was an inside job

Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject:

chek wrote:

And by the same token you already know that Steve Jones performed these experiments with other likely additives in the molten aluminium which showed no uniform glow either.

Incorrectly, that is. Feel free to try it yourself and take a look. It's not that difficult.

Quote:

As far as I know the material in the so-called solidified 'meteorites' has not been released for analysis yet, but it sure looks to all the world like oxidised ferrous material rather than the other most likely common candidates - aluminium or copper.

Oxidised ferrous material woudln't exactly be proof of anything.. other than iron.. and oxygen.

Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

InfoWarrior wrote:

that still doesn't explain the 1600 degree tempature of ground zero for six weeks after 9/11.

1600 degrees what? Fareinheit. I've already told you that NIST reported fires reached 1000 degrees Celsius.. that's 1800 degrees farenheit.

I see no reason to believe that 1800 degrees farenheit, pre collapse, adding all the energy released by the collapse, plus all the energy in the continuing chemical reactions in the debris wouldn't remain that hot.

If you have some analysis that shows that it's impossible, free free to post it.

Quote:

Also in my mind you haven't succesfully proven that the molten metal steel witnesses are misstaken.

Yes, I have. It could not have been melted steel because steel didn't melt, the temperature wasn't high enough. There is no physical evidence of any steel melting. It's also a fairly easy mistake to make, so I don't fault them for making it.

Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel found at Ground Zero & WTC 7

Patrick Brown wrote:

Seems your friends are giving Judy a hard time!

I can assume by your change of subject that you consider the matter of her "math" to be firmly debunked, then?

InfoWarrior
Minor Poster

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

aggle-rithm wrote:

InfoWarrior wrote:

First this should be easily explained, but its not. Second I don't have a theory. I only go by the facts, and the facts show that criminal elements of our government (U.S.A government) attacked America on 9/11. Haven't you ever heard of Operation Gladio, Operation Ajax, the Gulf of Tonkin, Cubana Airlines Flight 455, and The Join Chieffs of Staff's plan Operation Northwoods to blow up planes and blame it on Cuba. How did I even bring up the US government before this, besides a few facts about insider trading involving CIA agents.
_________________
9/11 was an inside job

Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

InfoWarrior wrote:

the facts show that criminal elements of our government (U.S.A government) attacked America on 9/11.

Waiting for your first fact.

Quote:

Haven't you ever heard of Operation Gladio, Operation Ajax, the Gulf of Tonkin, Cubana Airlines Flight 455, and The Join Chieffs of Staff's plan Operation Northwoods to blow up planes and blame it on Cuba.

All nice. Not "facts" of the government attack on America on 9/11.

Quote:

a few facts about insider trading involving CIA agents.

Proof please?

InfoWarrior
Minor Poster

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

Anti-sophist wrote:

InfoWarrior wrote:

the facts show that criminal elements of our government (U.S.A government) attacked America on 9/11.

Waiting for your first fact.

Quote:

All nice. Not "facts" of the government attack on America on 9/11.

Quote:

a few facts about insider trading involving CIA agents.

Proof please?

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_krongard.html
_________________
9/11 was an inside job

chek
Mega Poster

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject:

[quote="Anti-sophist"]

chek wrote:

And by the same token you already know that Steve Jones performed these experiments with other likely additives in the molten aluminium which showed no uniform glow either.

Anti-sophist wrote:

Incorrectly, that is. Feel free to try it yourself and take a look. It's not that difficult.

I assume by 'incorrectly' you mean a result that didn't sho wwhat you would like it to. But if you have a source showing that it does, then pleas don't hold back.

Quote:

Anti-sophist wrote:

Oxidised ferrous material woudln't exactly be proof of anything.. other than iron.. and oxygen.

Of course. But the molten state they had to be in to form those shapes is what's relevant here, not their present state.

Last edited by chek on Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel found at Ground Zero & WTC 7

Anti-sophist wrote:

Patrick Brown wrote:

Seems your friends are giving Judy a hard time!

I can assume by your change of subject that you consider the matter of her "math" to be firmly debunked, then?

My answers here fluffy: http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=35746#35746

I wonder why you didn't quote my whole post?

Patrick Brown wrote:

Seems your friends are giving Judy a hard time!

Judy Wood's wrote:

_________________
We check the evidence and then archive it: www.911evidencebase.co.uk
Get the Steven E Jones reports >HERE<

Ignatz
Moderate Poster

Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Posts: 918

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject:

Is there any information out there about the size, shape or composition of these "pools" of molten whatever? Just a thought here (as the whole subject is very vague) but molten anything would need to cool + solidify before it could be removed. Is there any record of any weirdly-shaped solids coming out of GZ (and I don't mean the "meteorites", they're something else entirely) ? Bearing in mind that - I suppose - these would have been cleared very late in the day, as molten stuff would naturally flow and sink downwards. _________________ So remember - next time you can't find a parking spot, go to plan B: blow up your car

aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster

Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

InfoWarrior wrote:

The facts don't even show that these criminal elements EXIST, much less are responsible for 9/11.

Quote:

Of course I have. Perhaps these examples can demonstrate that something underhanded is POSSIBLE. This isn't nearly enough proof to convince me of the 9/11 "truth" fantasy.

Quote:

How did I even bring up the US government before this, besides a few facts about insider trading involving CIA agents.

You didn't have to. Like all CT's, you are tiresomely predictable.

InfoWarrior
Minor Poster

Joined: 05 Nov 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Houston, TX

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions

aggle-rithm wrote:

InfoWarrior wrote:

The facts don't even show that these criminal elements EXIST, much less are responsible for 9/11.

Quote:

Of course I have. Perhaps these examples can demonstrate that something underhanded is POSSIBLE. This isn't nearly enough proof to convince me of the 9/11 "truth" fantasy.

Quote:

How did I even bring up the US government before this, besides a few facts about insider trading involving CIA agents.

You didn't have to. Like all CT's, you are tiresomely predictable.

Thats fine and dandy. Your early quote was "Here's what I want to know: How do you make the mental leap from "melted steel for 6 weeks" to "the US govt. conspired to kill thousands of its own people". " I never said anything about the US government till after you said that, so you just made that up that i said that the molten metal steel for 6 weeks is some how attached to criminal elements of our government. Also what about William Rodriguez and the explosion he felt and heard underneath him before the first plane hit that can be confirmed by 16 witnesses?

I assume he is a predictable CT too.
_________________
9/11 was an inside job

chek
Mega Poster

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

aggle-rithm wrote:

This isn't nearly enough proof to convince me of the 9/11 "truth" fantasy.

But as has been abundantly clear for some time now, you and the rest of the zoo are not here to be convinced of anything, are you AR?

Johnny Pixels
Moderate Poster

Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Location: A Sooper Sekrit Bunker

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

chek wrote:

aggle-rithm wrote:

This isn't nearly enough proof to convince me of the 9/11 "truth" fantasy.

But as has been abundantly clear for some time now, you and the rest of the zoo are not here to be convinced of anything, are you AR?

So where are the test results for the molten metal pools?
_________________

I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. - Umberto Eco

Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject:

chek wrote:

I assume by 'incorrectly' you mean a result that didn't sho wwhat you would like it to.

Of course not. An "incorrect experiment" is an experiment which is not testing what it claims to be testing. Steven Jones' experiments are incorrect.

Quote:

Of course. But the molten state they had to be in to form those shapes is what's relevant here, not their present state.

Where is proof they had to be molten?

aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster

Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions

InfoWarrior wrote:

All right, just tell me the chain of reasoning you used to go from melted metal to criminal elements. ANY criminal elements will do. I believe that what the witnesses saw, be it melted steel or melted aluminum or melted glass, or whatever, was the result of a catastrophic building failure. I don't pretend to understand these things completely, but the people who DO understand it don't find anything suspicious about the fires under the rubble or the results of those fires.

Quote:

Also what about William Rodriguez and the explosion he felt and heard underneath him before the first plane hit that can be confirmed by 16 witnesses?

I assume he is a predictable CT too.

How did he know the explosion underneath him occured before the first plane hit? How could ANYONE accurately interpret all the sounds and tremors involved in the crash when nothing like this had ever happened before? I think he, like many witnesses, reported what he believed happened, but was not in a position to interpret his experiences. It's like the proverbial blind man trying to determine the nature of an elephant by feeling only its trunk.

Do you believe explosives were set off in the basement before the crash? If so, why? It didn't cause the building to fail, in fact it caused pitifully little damage. I can't imagine what purpose this would serve in the real world, although the argument that it happened could help shore up the fantasy that criminals in the government were involved somehow.

aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster

Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

chek wrote:

aggle-rithm wrote:

This isn't nearly enough proof to convince me of the 9/11 "truth" fantasy.

But as has been abundantly clear for some time now, you and the rest of the zoo are not here to be convinced of anything, are you AR?

It would be more difficult to convince me of some things than others. Some beliefs that I hold have an enormous amount of momentum because they are so overwhelmingly supported by observation and experimentation.

For instance, if someone made the claim that the sun orbits the earth instead of the other way around, there had better be some compelling evidence of this before I would abandon a belief based on the interpretations of the data made by experts over the last few centuries. It would require far more than just finding fault with the "official story" that the Earth, in fact, orbits the sun.

It would make no difference if Newton and Copernicus were identified as Jewish (I'm sorry, ZIONIST) shills. Any arguments that it's OBVIOUS that the sun orbits the Earth would fall on deaf ears. This is not because I am closed-minded, but because the quality of the "evidence" offered is poor, whereas the quality of that supporting the alternate viewpoint is rock-solid.

chek
Mega Poster

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

aggle-rithm wrote:

chek wrote:

aggle-rithm wrote:

This isn't nearly enough proof to convince me of the 9/11 "truth" fantasy.

But as has been abundantly clear for some time now, you and the rest of the zoo are not here to be convinced of anything, are you AR?

In the same way as 10k+ pages of NIST evidence purports to be 'rock solid' about their little fantasy. Incredible.

Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill

Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject:

Oh look, Judy Wood has tackled the question of the molten metal and shown that molten aluminium can get red-hot, just as one would have thought. Of course, as a former scholar, her work must be a little suspect............. LINK _________________ ".......some partial collapse [of WTC7] would not have been suspicious......." - chek

chek
Mega Poster

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject:

Bushwacker wrote:

Oh look, Judy Wood has tackled the question of the molten metal and shown that molten aluminium can get red-hot, just as one would have thought. Of course, as a former scholar, her work must be a little suspect............. LINK

What you may have missed in your excitement is that the 'red hot' temperature shown below is at approx 930C-1100C, (approx 2000F) and is of the same appearance you would expect from steel in that same temperature range.
So, that leaves you back at square one trying to explain the heat source. Where did the heat come from?
NIST have no evidence of it, and other than another round of speculation masquerading as proof I doubt you critics do either.

Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject:

chek wrote:

Fantasy.

Quote:

So, that leaves you back at square one trying to explain the heat source. Where did the heat come from?
NIST have no evidence of it, and other than another round of speculation masquerading as proof I doubt you critics do either.

There was 2 trillion joules of energy. Plenty to produce red-hot metal.

chek
Mega Poster

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject:

[quote="Anti-sophist"]

chek wrote:

Anti-sophist wrote:

Fantasy.

No, reality.

Quote:

Anti-sophist wrote:

There was 2 trillion joules of energy. Plenty to produce red-hot metal.

Sigh, by what mechanism or are you rehashing the Great Celestial Freefall Ginder fantasy here?

aggle-rithm
Moderate Poster

Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 557

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Molten Metal Steel

chek wrote:

In the same way as 10k+ pages of NIST evidence purports to be 'rock solid' about their little fantasy. Incredible.

Any reason I should believe it's a "fantasy" or "incredible", other than your say-so?

Bushwacker
Relentless Limpet Shill

Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1628

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject:

chek wrote:

Bushwacker wrote:

No, you misunderstand; there is no doubt that steel became red-hot in the underground fires, there are some pictures of it. But what is also claimed is that molten steel was dripping from it, and the good Professor Jones claims that what appears to be molten metal falling from the tower must be steel because molten aluminium does not glow. Here we have some evidence that molten aluminium does glow when it is sufficiently hot, as indeed one would expect. Therefore the possibility exists that both purported examples of molten steel are in fact molten aluminium. That does not rule out the possibility of the flow from the building glowing red from other causes. Obviously Prof Jones failed to make aluminium glow because he did not make it hot enough.

The souce of the heat in the debris is another issue, and must be due to underground fires, any heat from any source on the day itself would have long gone six weeks later. Why truthshirkers should think the heat demonstrates controlled demolition is one of the enduring mysteries of 9/11.
_________________
".......some partial collapse [of WTC7] would not have been suspicious......." - chek

chek
Mega Poster

Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 3889
Location: North Down, N. Ireland

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject:

Bushwacker wrote:

chek wrote:

Bushwacker wrote:

While it's all very eloquent, it still does not explain the rusty ferrous oxidised look (in the absence of proper analysis) of those solidified 'meteorites'. Aluminium alloys don't look like that.

Nor is the newly discovered scientific phenomenom of natural blast furnaces convincingly explained. Blast furnaces being a fairly complex mechanism in themselves.
Natural 'underground fires' is a little weak on the descriptive front.

Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

Bushwacker wrote:

Tungsten boat!! Shocked

wikipedia wrote:

A high melting point also makes tungsten suitable for space-oriented and high temperature uses which include electrical, heating, and welding applications, notably in the GTAW process (also called TIG welding).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungsten

I don't recall any body saying that it was impossible for aluminum to glow just that you need very high temperatures which didn't exist in the twin towers. Judy makes some good points and some bogus points so most investigators will take the good and dismiss the bogus.
_________________
We check the evidence and then archive it: www.911evidencebase.co.uk
Get the Steven E Jones reports >HERE<

Anti-sophist
Moderate Poster

Joined: 30 Sep 2006
Posts: 531

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:03 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I don't recall any body saying that it was impossible for aluminum to glow just that you need very high temperatures which didn't exist in the twin towers.

Ok so let me get this right, in a thread dealing with all the MOLTEN metal evidence, you are now claiming that the temperature never got hot enough to produce solid glowing metal?

Seriously?

Again, NIST did an experiment (like.. you know.. science), and found CEILING temperatures to be 1000 degrees celsius. That's 400 degrees hotter than what you need to MELT aluminum, let alone make it glow.

You guys are seriously claiming it never got hot enough to make aluminum glow, let alone melt?

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