Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: well there you are
As Andrew has pointed out there are any number of ways to 'deal' with such a situation. The actions of the tazer cops are indefensible, no matter how we may view the legislative side of the affair. Irrespective of whatever you may say to a cop or anybody else, a 20,000volt blow to the nervous system is out of order, I think. I also think that some of the disingeneous comments above which argue the fiscal duties and protocols of announcing one's identity to he or she who asks, actually reveal more about the poster as a person than they may have wished. A little supercilliousness goes a long, long way.
I think the way it works is you employ someone of the right mentality, give them a new uniform that "looks the business", a taser and some basic training.
Then, you see how their humility develops (in a climate of fear of iminent "domestic terror" attacks). It's not that hard really is it? _________________ Andrew
What gets me is why in god's name the filth thought it necessary to be acting like the power crazed w@nkers they are in a campus library in the first place. A library - proper bastions of crime and disorder they are, right? Maybe the officers vaguely remembered items known as 'books' from their school days and wanted to find out what they are. And let's be clear - these goons were not part of the library, not employed by it and AFAIK not responding to any complaint or acting on an invite from the University. They were infringing on private proerty themselves, as I sincerely doubt they were members.
I'd just like to say I'd assert the aforementioned comparison with ID for one's personal affairs is totally disimilar - there is simply a world of difference between confirming ownership of one's goods and chattels and the notion that agents of the state may arbitrarily demand to know who you are because they feel like it. The bank has no right to know anything about me unless I enter into a tranaction (though they buy the data elsewhere and spam you with junk mail) To me, it beggars belief that we've become so deferential to authority that the idea that state sponsored thugs have some kind of divine right to know who we are.
Oh, I saw the point raised earlier that they have to show ID when asked - of course - they have great power. Would you ever comply with "could you get in the car please sir" without being sure who it was? The police can beat you up, gas you, handcuff you - you should at least know who they are for when they abuse it (though of course they swap around/remove their numbers when they know they're going to be naughty). In my job, I'd be sacked if I disclosed personal details about my clients. They can say what they like about me. However, I know many juicy details about their personal lives, so it's about balancing out power.
The day we blindly accept some spotty youth with a tit on his head (in this country at least) has a god given right to know who we are for no good reason, is the day totalitarianism is here to stay. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
Why is this even in debate? Its all irellevent! Even if the kid didn't have ID, wasn't a student, wasn't suposed to be there and was a deranged crack head from outer space - the force was unnecessary. He didnt obstruct, abuse or resist arrest. Four (armed) police officers, one (unarmed) student. Its a joke that anyone even considers the other details. They could have restrained him and manhandled him out of the place. Tazing him had no benefit on the situation whatsoever. By paralysing him they only made it more difficult to get him out. So why taze him? Same reason innocent people get pepper sprayed every week in England: Normal bloke + Uniform + Pepperspray/Tazer + Stressful environment minus the necessary responsibility = suffering of the very people they are there to protect.
As TC said, its always been there, but like everything else its in a downward spiral.
To look at this situation as anything but a complete abuse of power is ridiculous. They did it, they got caught out (for once) and its as simple as that. _________________ War is when the government tells you who the bad guy is. Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
When Mostafa Tabatabainejad refused to present his BruinCard in Powell Library when asked during a routine check by Community Service Officers, scoffing at them and police, it created an uproar, the fallout of which has graced airwaves and prompted headlines internationally.
Whether or not the police used excessive force, there is no doubt that the student showed a blatant disregard for UCLA's regulations and police authority.
Most people are only aware of the latter part of the incident – the police repeatedly using a Taser on a handcuffed student.
They therefore come away with a mistaken account of the incident, missing critical events that caused the violence of the situation to escalate.
Tabatabainejad refused multiple police demands to leave Powell before any force was used, according to a university police statement. The police were called when Tabatabainejad refused to leave after being asked repeatedly to do so by CSOs.
Though the student eventually started to leave after the police arrived, he began to resist them.
At this point, when the student stopped cooperating, the police began to use the Taser on the student.
The disobedience continued. On the video, you can clearly hear the police officers asking Tabatabainejad to stand up.
"* off," he replied.
"Stand up, or you'll get Tased again," an officer said.
The police repeated the command for the student to stand up 23 times before using the Taser on him the second time.
Still he refused to stand. Watching the video of the event, I counted a total of 73 requests by the police for the student to stand up.
Many question the use of any force in this situation, but force is not without its purposes. To keep the rest of us safe, officers expose themselves to the constant threat of violence, and some officers see their colleagues killed in the line of duty.
For this reason, there are certain tactics police use in order to protect their own lives, tactics that may seem brutal or heavy-handed if taken out of this context.
We now know, in hindsight, that Tabatabainejad was not dangerous, but he might have acted in such a way to make the police worried about potential danger. People should take this into account before jumping to conclusions.
Regardless of whether or not the police used excessive force, we should all agree that Tabatabainejad is at least partially to blame for his less-than-brilliant behavior.
Student responses to the incident have been varied. At least four Facebook groups have already been created, including "I forgot my BruinCard.. please don't TASER me" and "Powell Taze: Taze Him Again!", representing opposite responses to the occurrence.
There is even a protest planned for today, taking issue with the police handling of the situation. On the Facebook page he created for the event, third-year business economics student Combiz Abdolrahimi calls for the protest on grounds that racial profiling was responsible for the situation.
But attempts to paint this as an issue of racial profiling really stretch the facts. I – who by no means look middle Eastern – have been asked to produce my BruinCard by CSOs.
If I then refused to comply with the directions of the CSO – being asked to leave – I would fully expect to be treated somewhat roughly by the police.
People of any race are regularly carded by CSOs after 11 p.m., at which time those without UCLA IDs are asked to leave. In this case, the whole situation was created by the student acting out.
Posters littering campus promoting the protest pose the question, "Since when is it OK to Taser students?"
I'd like to suggest an answer: It might be OK when the student picks a fight with police officers.
It would be wise to postpone the instinctual reaction to partial accounts of the incident, and consider that we enjoy a certain amount of safety because of the vigilance of our CSOs and police. For their sake and ours, it would be a good idea to listen to these officials when they're going about their jobs.
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Send your favorite Rodney King jokes to Lazar at lazar@media.ucla.edu. Send general comments to viewpoint@media.ucla.edu.
The kids, they need educating... _________________ Free your Self and Free the World
For this reason, there are certain tactics police use in order to protect their own lives, tactics that may seem brutal or heavy-handed if taken out of this context.
We now know, in hindsight, that Tabatabainejad was not dangerous, but he might have acted in such a way to make the police worried about potential danger. People should take this into account before jumping to conclusions.
Regardless of whether or not the police used excessive force, we should all agree that Tabatabainejad is at least partially to blame for his less-than-brilliant behavior.
Quote:
I'd like to suggest an answer: It might be OK when the student picks a fight with police officers.
It would be wise to postpone the instinctual reaction to partial accounts of the incident, and consider that we enjoy a certain amount of safety because of the vigilance of our CSOs and police. For their sake and ours, it would be a good idea to listen to these officials when they're going about their jobs.
Was that article real???!!!!!
Of course though the police have to be ultra-careful in a campus library situation. Who can tell what may happen - books returned late, people talking when others are trying read, books browsed then being put back in the wrong place - authority must be maintained or there'd be chaos. At any rate these "libraries" are used for "learning" - probably all the wrong things. It's no doubt where he crammed his head full of big ideas about guff such as "civil liberties" and other rot.
Of course it's his own fault for not leaping to attention when summoned by the gestapo - doubly so for not doing so when given a serious electric shot. It's a testament to the sanity and restraint of the American policeman that they didn't shoot him repeatedly in the head - he wouldn't have been so cocky then! It certainly taught that De Menzes a lesson he won't forget! (or wouldn't if he had a brain left).
After all - how were the good officers to be sure he wasn't a crazed Al Qaeda sucide bomber on a desperate mission to destroy blasphemous western texts and IT equipment? If he'd detonated himself taking everyone with him, where would be your bleeding hearts then? Or if he'd whipped out an AK47 and gone on the rampage? Or if he'd swallowed a gallon of 'liquid explosive' and was about to unleash fiery urine of death on all present?
After all, some good natured rough'n'tumble teaches you a valuable lesson about life. If passers by were randomly strip-searched, tasered and occasionally shot on sight, some serious respect for law and order would return to the mean streets of America.
Officers of the law have a tough job - taking bribes, harassing ethnic minorites, having a kip next to the motorway, destroying dissident political movements and occasionally catching criminals (not the posh kind, of course) is a big job. If we didn't have the police, where would we get our crime number for insurance purposes? And, as we all know, if anything happens to one of them, it's clearly a greater tragedy than if anything happens to a pleb. They've got a hat and a gun. They're important. You're not.
It was his own fault, If he'd jumped to attention, shouted "YES SIR!" and bent over to take the 'long arm of the law' on demand then all would be well. Protests? they should whip him naked through the streets to teach him some goddam respect. These kids today need to learn who's in charge. And it's not them. _________________ It's a man's life in MOSSAD
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