Discussion Thread: An Open Challenge to Prof. Steven Jones

[scar]

Thought i might as well start one off, save everyone getting their posts deleted...
Dunno if this has been posted before:

In Defense of Steven Jones: the Deliberate Effort to Discredit him and his Research.
http://www.911blogger.com/node/5124
Quite thorough i thought.

I dont expect anyone to turn up to debate with venomica but will be interesting if it happens.

[andyb]

Absolutely ridiculous that this board is being used as a platform for Veronica and her band of Beam buddies to attack Jones. This is a sure fire way of providing a straw man to any one who wants to dismiss us as paranoid conspiracy theorists. Why isd this board being used? Fetzer, Woods, Siegal, surely have enough bandwidth to do this elsewhere. Never has a thead been set up that noone else can post one before, why now? is it because AJ is a fan? If this must go on, I suggest critics corner.

[spiv]

I posted this on that thread a few minutes ago, and am expecting it to be deleted

"I am, quite frankly, disgusted at this Andrew. I spend my time e-mailing politicians both in the UK and America, putting forward our arguments and so forth, just like many others do on this site.

What you are doing here is helping make a laughing stock of us.

I say to prof Jones, do not lower yourself to this stupidity. The 9/11 report is proved wrong, end of story. This is why we need a fresh inquiry.

Andrew, I am deeply ashamed of you, and Veronica!!"

How has the Truth Movement reached these pathetic low levels? Andrew and Veronica, hang your heads in shame!!

[Andrew Johnson]

[andyb]

why has this thread been moved and not the other? AJ, you rae taking the proverbial pee and abusing your mod priveleges. what with the TeleC debacle last week, your completely biased defence of TTWSU3 and now this, I post one web vote of no confidence.

[spiv]

Andrew, so you are the font of all knowledge concerning what happened during 9/11, are you?? So you have also become secretive just like Bush's Government, have you? So this Veronica also knows the smoking gun and is similarly secretive?

This does not help the Truth Movement one little bit, and so I again reiterate, these challenges between 9/11 Truth seekers must stop.

It is precisely this sort of thing which is destroying any credibility we have, and why we are contuinually referred to as "nut jobs"!!

I repeat, you should be ashamed of yourself, as should Veronica!!

[Thermate]

Oh what a surprise, this boards 'inside man' Andrew Johnson at the bleeding edge...

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[andyb]

^This has been done ad nauseum, just like you no-plnaes nonsense. His colleague relpied and said he wouldn't bother as all the Beam/NPt camp seem to do is attack him. If I was him I wouldn't bother.

[Thermate]

[scar]

I got the impression this has been agreed to by all the mods so its not just Andrews doing...
..

[ian neal]

Good people.

The decision to allow this 'special' thread where the 2 'sides' of ST911 can discuss in a public forum (should they so wish) the merits or otherwise of Steven Jones' hypotheses on the demolition of the trade centre towers without the intervention of others, is I believe a perfectly reasonable one. ALL the moderators were consulted on the decision to allow this. The moderators will only intervene on the thread at the direct request of Veronica or Steven Jones or to remove unauthorised posters.

Feel free to discuss this decision by the moderators and the actual substance of any debate (assuming Steven Jones or a nominated spokesperson responds) either on this thread or elsewhere but not on the thread in question. Thanks

If you want my twopenneth worth and I've said this frequently before: the best case for convincing people of the need for a new inquiry is made by '9/11 Press for Truth'. Start off with the massive evidence around prior knowledge, intelligence failures, air defense failures and the pre-9/11 plans to attack both Afghanistan and Iraq. Move onto the bs that was the 9/11 commission and various contradictory official explanations of the air defnse failures.

If someone is undecided of the need for a new inquiry after that then I don't know what will convince them.

Now the tower collapses. 9/11 has been crying out for credible scientists and engineers to step forward.
Steven Jones has put forward the theory and stuck to it that the towers were brought down by thermite/thermate. He has been a central figure of Scholars for Truth. The group that has invited Steven to defend his hypothesis are not just anyone but core members of Scholars for Truth as well. The challenge is not about other controversial theories such as 'no big boeings' or beam weapons. It is about the equally controversial theory that thermite/thermate was involved in the tower collapses.

Surely those who wish to see the debate conducted on the basis of the strongest case possible should welcome the testing in public of this controversial and relatively new theory that is made by one of the highest profile 9/11 campaigners. If Steven wishes to be considered an important voice of science within the 9/11 movement, I believe, he should be willing to test his understanding of the science with people who until recently were close colleagues. Now I understand that some of his critics have been attacked Steven in a personal and abusive manner and this is regrettable but should he choose to accept the challenge offered I can assure him that no personal attacks will be permitted.

[Skeptic]

We must seriously focus on seperating 'research' or 'theory' from campaigning.

This site is a point of first contact for many people who have yet to even doubt the official story, let alone consider 'no planes' or 'beam weapons' theories.

It's essential that before the task of speculating and theorising about what actually happened is attempted, the official theory is successfully disproven in the public eye.

Once the official theory is considered false in the public eye, the burden of proof lies with the US Government to explain themselves. So long as we continue to fail at making the problems with the official story known, the burden of proof will lie with us.

I think perhaps people are too quick to assume that the job of showing the official theory to be false in the public eye has been achieved already. Far from it.

Peace

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[andyb]

^ no you wouldn't. This is displayed with your dogmatic approach to almost all your posts. Your failure to look at the debunking of the NPT and it's constant pushing is another example of you not really wanting to see both sides of an argument.

anyway, the debate is a non starter as he has never said it was Thermite/Thermate alone, a large part of the argument gone.

[spiv]

[ian neal]

Spiv, as I have said elsewhere, I and many others recognise that that this forum and the public face face of the campaign need revisiting and refocussing and this will be the purpose of a meeting to be held in February in Bristol.

I feel there is demand and value in having a public discussion forum that is sympathetic to the truth movement (not just 9/11 but 7/7 and 101 other issues), but that this forum in its current format has had its day. I will be arguing for a continued forum but that this new forum is reowrked and redisgned so that it is 100% clear that it IS NOT the public face of the 9/11 campaign and is NOT SEEN TO BE the public face of the 9/11 campaign put something separate. This is the case I will be putting forward.

[Fallious]

Maybe i'm behind the truth curve, but what right does Veronica have to represent Fetzer and Woods in public debate? She didn't even successfully argue against me, I certainly wouldn't want her representing my theory.. Just wondering..

[Patrick Brown]

Am I the only person who thinks this forum has lost all credibility If anybody agrees with me why not post over at my 911 evidence base as I'm sure Andrew, Ian, 4U2P and many others will be happy to see the back of you. If the mod gang here want to talk no-planes then I recommend leaving them to get on with it while the rest of us try to build a clearer picture of the events of 911.

If you roughly know what happened on 911 then don't let mind games and disinformation confuse you and more importantly don't cast your pearls of wisdom to swine!

[Fallious]

[spiv]

I, for one, am cringing in acute embarassment at what has been posted today by Veronica and Andrew. I was very disturbed that a rift formed in America, but felt that at least we Brits could hold together, develop and grow.

Well, that seems not to be. I've been arguing 9/11 on David Cameron's site today, but am now deeply ashamed to be associated with this forum here. I agree completely with Patrick Brown.

What on earth were you all moderators thinking?? This is absolute madness, and, of course, by way of a gift, the very ammunition to those who think us all "nut job conspiracy theorists!!

[brian]

I posted this on the other thread then it dissappeared.

This is a serious question which may at first seem a gratutious insult.

Is Veronica brain dead?

There is nothing to debate. Nothing.

Nowhere has Jones said TTH can account for the demolitions - nowhere.

It seems Veronica cannot grasp that simple fact so why anyone would treat her seriously let alone "debate" with her is beyond my ken.

The woman is demented and should be treated as such.

[Patrick Brown]

[brian]

Patick Brown, thats the worry, that the site will lose all credibility.

I personally find it worthwhile to try and show that these people attempting to undermine Jones' reputation are doing so from an insupportable position - often lies.

The why of it is another question that some may think obvious, I cannot say I have come to any conclusion.

[Thermate]

This site lost most of its credibility for me along time ago. I still pop in for the 1 in 10 posts that are useful and constructive and hoping that the people who run the site will see where its heading and do something about it. But so far no sign of that. Agreeing to this farce, no doubt at AJ's behest... does nothing to raise that credibility.

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[Uma]

Live & let live, folks. If Steven sees some advantage in this exercise, he'll no doubt engage. Should this be the case, then where's the harm? It'll be of interest to some, no doubt; & to the many who couldn't give a toss - you needn't look....

Just one observation; Prof. Jones' circumstances and credentials are known to most. Perhaps Veronica would be good enough to post a paragraph or two about hers, including her current occupation. (or, in the absence of a vocation, an indication of the source of her funding of the time she will evidently have at her disposal to contest this challenge.)


In any event, upholding civility would be beneficial all round.

[ian neal]

My understanding is that Veronica has been closely involved in discussions at ST911 and posts this challenge to Steve Jones with Jim Fetzer's blessing.

The way I see it is if Steven Jones does choose to discuss Veronica's post and we keep the discussion between these 2 camps, then this will be infinitely more enlightening than if the rest of us who continue to discuss this issue. I don't actually expect Steven Jones to respond but see no harm in allowing Veronica to post her challenge. The moderators certainly won't be posting on the thread. If there are no responses this thread it will soon disappear unless of course people choose to continue to endlessly discuss it.

[scar]

[brian]

TTWSU3, I pointed out the lies immediately Andrew Johnson posted -

Important article by Morgan Reynolds

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3422&highlight=impor tant+paper+morgan+reynolds

The more important question is why these falsehoods are repeated or ignored by yourself and others - this for such an inordinate time on such an important matter.

But no doubt this will be ignored and the lies repeated.

Care to tell us why?