You're all wrong - George Monbiot says so

[numeral]

[fixuplooksharp]

beat me to it. i like monbiot. counterpunch is an ad driven site, about it being the leftest of the left. silly talk

[blackcat]

[Mark Gobell]

Hilarious.

Perhaps George could take some time off from saving his planet and show the world the mechanism that caused the Twin Towers and WTC7 to fall to the ground as fast as they did.

Despite his assertion that NIST and other assorted government funded "experts" have provided this proof, there is one tiny flaw in that assertion George. They haven't. Neither have they ever claimed to have provided said explanations. We've had pancake collapse, progressive collapse and global collapse, yet none can explain away the laws of physics George. That's the point you need to address.

The world is over 5 years down the tyrannical road George, and nobody knows the official explanation for why WTC7 fell to the ground and how NIST's analysis of the Twin Towers "up to the point of collapse" resulted in those buildings being demolished so fast.

If you really knew what you were talking about George, you would have known that wouldn't you.

NORAD have changed their story so many times that even you George must have reasonable doubt.

The irony in Monbiot's risbile "article" is that he finally relies on a conspiracy theory to prove his point. Stunningly hilarious.

George's conspiracy is that the makers of Loose Change are part of a government operation to distract us from the "real abuses of power" and relies on their longevity for his proof.

For all I know George you could be right. Let's suppose you are.

You are a conspiracy theorist.

If you really do not believe that 9/11 was the New Pearl Harbour called for in your admitted, PNAC blueprint for full spectrum domination and the subsequent invasions of two sovereign nations, so far, and the murder of 100's of thousands of innocent people are "real abuses of power" then you are seriously disconnected from reality.

Are we therefore to asume that your environmental analysis of climate change is founded on similar blind spots George ?

Given that you are by no means noted for your expertise on 9/11 and flase flag terrorism, would it be acceptable to you for a comparative environmental ignoramus, to issue forth about climate change ?

If you really think that your readers are bound to swallow your drivel George then I conclude you have done yourself and the Guardian much more harm than you have attempted to inflict on those that doubt the 9/11 Commission report's version of reality.

Perhaps next time your editor asks you to knock off a piece on 9/11 George you could give us your analysis of the 9/11 Commission Report.

Stick to what you do best George, making a living out of the environment and "climate change".

A very poor attempt to coral any would be strays from the Green pen.

Embarrassing.

[Skeptic]

Sadly I think a lot of readers will accept this article unquestioningly and be glad that Loose Change is just a 'lot of nonsense'.

Despite this, the comments on the wepage are encouraging!

Loose Change is simply too easy to debunk. Too much speculation. Although it asks the right questions it harms its own message by trying to answer them.

Still, all publicity and that.

[Skeptic]

Good work Mark.

I've got a comment up there too.

[Mark Gobell]

Monbiot hasn't done himself any favours.

Is this the dénouement of the Guardian piece on LC last week I wonder.

[StopThe9/11CoverUp]

Loose change is gonns have to be changed to omit the out there theories.

May have the potential to be very harmful to the movement.

Theres a chap on the webcameron site who id having NOTHING of the movement, explaining everything away, saying diesel pipes were damaged in WTC 7 by debris from 1 and 2, says the pipes pumped 30,000 gallons of diesel into WTC 7????

Guys we need some help on webcameron with this guy, maybe we not arguing it right but nonetheless need help. heres the link:

http://www.webcameron.org.uk/blogs/2398-4#comments

this is toughest nut to crack yet lol!!

Ade.

[Justin]

I've just sent this off:

[ianrcrane]

Posted at : http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2006831,00.html

It is most opportune that George Monbiot should attempt to debunk the 9/11 Truth Campaign and use crass one-liners to dismiss the content of Loose Change II, which just so happens to be the most downloaded video in the history of Google Video. Ultimately, it is for each individual to decide whether or not they accept the official account of any major event at face value. However, it is evident that there is growing public concern, both in the US and in the UK, over the veracity of the official version of what actually transpired on that fateful day in September 2001.

The most outrageous of claims made by George Monbiot is that, “No one has volunteered to tell the greatest story ever told.”

A statement that is either indicative of a staggering lack of intellectual curiosity or an intentional lie! The list of whistle-blowers is extensive but I will draw attention to just two. Sibel Edmonds, a former FBI Translator, has the dubious honour of being the most gagged individual in US legal history. In reference to the 9/11 Commission investigation Edmonds stated, "If they were to do real investigations we would see several significant high level criminal prosecutions in this country. And that is something that they are not going to let out. And, believe me; they will do everything to cover this up."

However, it is William Rodriguez, a Janitor at the World Trade Centre for 20 years, who has become the most vocal advocate of establishing a new investigation into the events of 9/11. As the last man out of WTC1, Rodriguez was widely recognised and revered as the hero of 9/11. Awarded the Congressional Medal of Honour by the President and recognised as a tireless campaigner on behalf of the WTC survivors and families of the victims, Rodriguez was stunned when he became one of only three people required to give their evidence to the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors. The other two being President G.W. Bush & vice-President Dick Cheney, who refused to appear before the Commission separately and who refused to take the oath. When Rodriguez learned that his evidence had been omitted from the 9/11 Commission report, he realised that the 9/11 Commission more about bolstering the official account than uncovering the truth. For the past two and a half years, Rodriguez has met with government officials in many countries, including Malaysia, Venezuela & Japan, campaigning for an international inquiry into the events which have triggered two illegal wars, an open ended War on Terror and provided Bush & Blair with the excuse to introduce legislation that takes the US & UK to the fringes of being police states. (Bush at least makes no bones about his extremist right wing tendencies but what is Blair’s excuse?)

Well, it just so happens that William Rodriguez in just a few days into a month long tour of the UK; giving audiences the opportunity to hear his gripping first-hand account of that fateful day. He will also be discussing his extraordinary experiences since that day and explaining why he has dedicated his life to establishing the truth behind the events of 9/11.

250 people attended William’s talk in Totnes, Devon last Sunday evening. A local BBC film crew covered the event but afterwards the camera operator grimaced as he said, “There’s no chance of this being broadcast … our bosses will find a reason not to put this out.”
Now, why do you think that might be?

For details of William’s UK tour dates visit: www.last-man-out.com

Ian R. Crane
Chair – 9/11 Truth Campaign (UK & Ireland)

[THETRUTHWILLSETU3]

[Justin]

Thought these two offerings might amuse you - when I wrote my second contribution to this thread (under the name of Cartondewiart) I couldn't have asked for a better person to go before me to prove my point!!!

[Justin]

Thetruthwillsetu3

[Pikey]

Good work Justin:-

[Bongo]

The best advert for monty pythons 'Life Of Brian'...
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/7/78/Life_of_Brian_bbc_d iscussion.jpg

The best advert for music...
http://www.riaa.com/images/parentaladvisory.gif

The best advert ever for 'Loose Change'...

[Ian]

In his article on 9/11, George Monbiot claims that, "The failure of the twin towers has been exhaustively documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology." But he but fails to mention that NIST has not yet pronounced on how the 47 storey Building 7 (WTC7) collapsed in just over 6 seconds. Perhaps readers should watch short online video clips of WTC7's collapse, and make up their own minds as to whether it was
"thousands of gallons of diesel" burning which caused it to collapse, or a controlled demolition.

[Snowygrouch]

I phoned the news editor today and (very subltly) told her what I thought of the article. I gave her my phone number and asked her to tell Monbiot to attend my talk at UEL tomorrow....I doubt she passed the message on.

Cant say I`m surprised.

Dont be too hard on Mobiot; I suspect he's been fed some 'rotten fish' if you know what I mean.

C.

[rodin]

[conspiracy analyst]

[StopThe9/11CoverUp]

Israel didnt do it was what someone here said right?

There's as much chance of them "doing" it as the Bush Administration because Israelies were sent to New York to "record the event". They even say so on Israelie news (the actual Israelies who were in New York that is). Interviewed on the program and thats what they said.

Almost like a time traveller being sent back in time to record the event: The birth of christ!!

Israel Knew something, if US didnt know what was coming because their Intelligence so poor then sorry but the US would have been wiped of the map from terrorist attacks by now!

Ade.

[Thermate]

[Skeptic]

anyone notice this letter in today's Guardian?

[Mark Gobell]

Well, if Peter McKenna is correct then David Shayler & Annie Machon are not doing a very good job are they.

The notion that anyone who questions the role of our insecurity services involvement in false flag terrorism, is somehow part of a plan by those agencies to provoke false flag scepticism, assumes that those sceptics are being led by the nose, cannot think for themselves and are being led by ex-spooks into a blind alley.

Shayler speaks of no planes. My mum believes the government's version. So what ?

That is: Shayler speaks of no planes.

Which is not: everyone who questions the involvement of our insecurity services in promoting false flag terrorism speak of no planes.

As for trains, the only phantom trains on 7/7 that have been mentioned, have been published by our wonderful government, in their pathetic narrative, no doubt ably researched and advised by our insecurity services and police.

The reason for such remarkable "mishtake", we still await, as do the victim's families.

Neither Shayler, Machon, or any other sceptic, ex-spook or otherwise has introduced phantom trains Mr McKenna, your government, insecurity services and police did that, completely on their own.

The point you might like to address Mr McKenna, is that our insecurity services are unaccountable. No matter what your criticism of them may be, conventional or not, they do not need to listen. Just like our government. But you know that don't you.

Among other spooky alumni, even the mad bad and dangerous Mr Shayler tells you that.

What is the matter with these people ?

Dr Peter McKenna can be contacted here: p.mckenna@mmu.ac.uk

[Skeptic]

readers respond:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,2007936,00.html

[ian neal]

A letter from Elias in Iceland

Sir, Madam,

George Monbiot is treating me as a "gibbering idiot" in his article on
the socalled "9/11 conspiracy virus" published on your pages today,
February 6th 2007
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2006830,00.html). I
confess to be one of those who has been "infected by a virus", the
virus of skepticism towards the official fairy-tale on 9/11. This
virus, according to Mr. Monbiot, has "sucked my brains through my eyes"
and made my "lips foam" and my "eyes roll". I really did not know!

I think that even presumed patients like me deserve a right to respond
to Mr. Monbiot's hallucinations.

First of all, most veterans skeptics on 9/11, such as myself, have not
been infected by the film "Loose Change" which the author considers as
the origin of the "virus". We have studied the events of 9/11 long
before the film was even conceived. Using our common-sense and
critical faculties, we have discovered numerous anomalies,
contradictions and misrepresentations in the official account on the
events of September 11, 2001. So many in fact, that they fill volumes.
I refer readers to Paul Thompson's excellent timeline on 9/11, posted
on www.cooperativeresearch.org and the books on 9/11 by Prof. David Ray
Griffin, whose academic credentials are beyond dispute, but is referred
demeaningly by Mr. Monbiot as a "high priest" of 9/11 conspiracists
(sic).

As Mr. Monbiot is so confident that the official tale on 9/11 is true
and that he can safely dismiss 9/11 skeptics as "gibbering idiots", I
hereby offer to him a prize of £1500 if he can send to me or have
published on the pages of The Guardian within the next two weeks any
verifiable evidence that proves - beyond reasonable doubt (the standard
of proof in criminal cases) - that the 19 individuals named by the FBI
as the hijackers of 9/11, actually boarded the aircraft which crashed
on 9/11. Without such proof, it is simply indecent to accuse these
individuals of mass murder, let alone commit the crime of aggression
against Afghanistan, start an indefinite "war on terror" and lie to the
world. Should Mr. Monbiot fail to substantiate the allegation that
these 19 individuals have boarded the aircraft of 9/11, I expect him
to issue a public excuse to the families of the 19 individuals he
implicitly accused of mass murder, to the families of the victims of
9/11 and to the readers of the Guardian. The Guardian's journalists
can feel free to spend the rest of their lives looking for evidence
which does not exist and has never existed.

Elias Davidsson

[ian neal]

This response from Ian henshall

GEORGE MONBIOT CATCHES A VIRUS

Whichever side of the nine eleven debate we stand we can probably
agree that the media did get it right about one thing: nine eleven
changed everything. It has put George Monbiot in the same camp as the
Hearst Corporation and the CIA in denouncing the 911 truth movement.
It has put Hugo Chavez and Zbig Brzezinski on the other side of the
divide. Chavez recently stated that the Twin Towers may have been
brought down by explosives and Brzezinski, who tricked the USSR into
disaster in Afghanistan when he was in power, warned Congress that
America may use a terrorist attack on the us mainland as part of the
preparation for an attack on Iran. Zbig did not tell Congress quite
explicitly that the attack could be planned by the administration but
how else would it fit into the military's schedules?

This is of course one of the reasons why people in the nine eleven
truth movement got suspicious in the first place: the timing of nine
eleven was just too damn suspicious. It was worth looking into, and
we found a can of worms. Monbiot did not want to look into the can,
even though nine eleven had wrecked the anti-globalisation movement
and boosted Bush, his big enemy. Fair enough, thought the activists,
he doesn't want to poison the well of trust in a governing system
which the social Democratic left still hope they can take over after
a hundred years of trying. Perhaps he just wants to leave it to
somebody else to do the dirty work.

But now Monbiot has tragically lost it. In a rant against the "virus"
of "conspiracism" he is now trying to bully the movement that trusted
him into toeing a new party line. Monbiot after years of good work
has joined the sneering elite. But surely he has some reason? Not
really, on a close examination Monbiot's article is a trail of bad
logic irrelevant detail and deceit by omission. Just what you would
expect if you take Popular Mechanics book on the "911 Myths", as your
gospel, published by the Hearst Corporation, introduced by Senator
"torture lite" John McCain, and researched by the cousin of Bush
Homeland Security boss Michael Chertoff.

Monbiot's big stick is the NIST report, the official report on how
the Twin Towers collapsed. Monbiot who has made a career out of Bush
hating, who has drawn attention to Bush's abuse of government
scientists when it comes to global warming, takes as gospel their
report into the collapse of the World Trade Centre. The metal was
softened by the fires, ergo they collapsed. That the top section of
each building was able to overcome the entire structural and inertial
resistance of the vast building below it, change much of it into
pulverised concrete, and still reach the ground in near freefall time
is no problem for someone supposed to be scientifically literate. Is
Monbiot really unaware NIST only ever looked at how the collapse may
have begun. Can pundits really be this lazy? That's not the only
problem: nowhere did NIST produce evidence that the temperatures
exceeded 300 degrees let alone the 600 degrees needed over a
prolonged period for the metal to lose even half of its strength. The
architect who designed the Towers to resist collision with a large
passenger jet must be turning in his grave.

At the risk of being boring let me mention one more detail. Monbiot
sneers that the film Loose Change gives too much time to the
building's janitor. He fails to mention that William Rodriguez the
chief janitor, an American national hero, was cut off by the media
when he emerged as a cogent eyewitness to support the allegation,
reported by virtually everyone at the time, that the Towers had been
brought down by preset explosives. When it became clear that Osama
bin laden could not have done this the official line changed, the
firemen were bullied into line by Mayor Giuliani (Monbiot seems
unaware of the oral histories, released after a ferocious court
battle, which make that clear) but Rodriguez stood firm. He was in
the basement at the time. The seismic evidence supports Rodriguez,
and unfortunately for the CIA the Hearst Corporation and George
Monbiot it cannot be manipulated by political diktat.

There are kernels of truth in Monbiot's world of viruses. 911 people
can be boring. They have a different strategy to wake up the public
to the ugly reality of the Empire. Loose Change is an emotional
populist production of immense power. It does get some things wrong,
the makers are not so stupid as to believe they have access to
absolute truth when there has been a pervasive smokescreen placed
over the events. To this day for instance the US government has never
produced a photo to prove that flight seventy seven actually did hit
the Pentagon. Its passengers included (yes this may just be a
coincidence) CNN's neocon darling Barbara Olson, and three executives
from the Raytheon Corporation one of whose specialities is the remote
control of aircraft. To this day there is no photograph of any of the
alleged hijackers as they boarded the aircraft. The alleged mobile
phone calls could not have taken place and have been quietly changed
into airphone calls, but they still cannot explain how eight pilots
were overpowered and no hijack warning was given on any transponder.

How could a grand conspiracy have succeeded? It relied on people like
Monbiot to believe it. It made the right judgement. Rodriguez is on
tour in the UK but no national newspaper will speak to him.
Nonetheless it's coming apart. It would come apart faster if pundits
did research, news editors would admit they have been duped, and
corporate proprietors dared to defy pressures from government and
advertisers. Good people have done nothing and evil has prospered.
How ironic that Monbiot does not understand that.

What could be Monbiot's motive for denouncing so much of the movement
as a "virus" at a time when turkeys are being slaughtered? We can
only hope that this terminology was inadvertent and not a nasty
little bit of psychological warfare. We can only hope that the CIA
has quietly whispered to him that the nine eleven truth movement is
full of Nazis, or that he feels guilty for failing to investigate the
matter properly, or there is some internal power struggle going on at
the Guardian. Perhaps this is a turf war for the allegiance of
supporters of the sort that has always wrecked the left.

But there is a nightmare scenario. Perhaps Monbiot like his colleague
on the Observer Nick Cohen, is on the ugly neocon road from
trotskyism to the new version of fascism which makes the holocaust
into a religion and deduces that anything is justified, including
near genocide in Iraq, in the cause of "defending Israel".
Anti-semitic? Not at all, Israel is shorthand for America's oil and
the settlers' stolen land on the West Bank. Among the first victims
of the new fascists are, like the old fascists, ordinary jewish
people outside the empire's politically correct elite of sneering
overpaid pundits, multi ethnic racketeers and old style Pentagon nazis.

With a false flag terrorist attack on the US on the cards and another
wave of mass murder planned for Iran, the timing of Monbiot's
diatribe against "conspiracists" ie people who are trying to do
something to stop the empire, could hardly be more disturbing. Let's
hope he's just a sloppy researcher who has made a fool of himself.

Ian Henshall

upcoming book 911 The New Evidence

[ian neal]

This from Martin Deane
http://www.greenparty.org.uk/individual/229

My 9/11 information is based on my own studies in 2004. For 3 years I believed the US government view while reading most stuff that I came across on 9/11.

In 2004 I clocked up 100s of hours and now know the material well. But that's a far cry from saying I know exactly what happened though and that goes for other researchers and the film-makers too.

The Loose Change film Monbiot describes emotionally as a "virus" and as "nonsense" quite simply isn't. It is a remarkable compendium of the state of play of independent investigators into 9/11 delivered in an attractive format by a few young NY film-makers. If you've watched it, or part of it, then feel free to challenge me further on any details. Some will have a better provenance than others depending on the reliability of the evidence involved. A film, any film, isn't the last word. But neither was the 9/11 Commission report which did claim to have laid all "conspiracies theories" to rest and turns out to have addressed none of them.

I have recommended Loose Change as an introduction to the 'other side' for people who have not done their own research. I've watched it a number of times, and - more importantly - being familiar with the HISTORY ('history' rather than conspiracy because there is more to back it up than the US government story!) am content to recommend it to others for that reason.

Now, it's not the final story. There is plenty more to come out and I hope it does. What you can rest assured of is that there is no way the Bush mob is telling us the truth of the day, and certainly not their 600-page report (which I've also read in its entirety).

There are more lies about 9/11 than there have been about the Iraq war!

They WILL lie - and kill - to get wars. A simple example Monbiot does not address: do you know that about 9 of the 19 men blamed for 9/11 are still alive? That's the fact that got me started, so I investigated that first, and found it to be the case. Do you know that all 4 of those flights SHOULD have been intercepeted by jet fighters (as 67 flights in the previous year had) but not one was. That was the one that got Michael Meacher,MP started.

The collapses of the towers struck me as incredible on the day. I thought 'My God, now they (Bush, etc) can do anything they want (on the back of it)' The collapses got Prof Steven Jones (Physics,Utah) started and he describes a variety of evidence that points, he concludes, to the widespread use of thermite/thermate throughout the buildings. Including WTC-7 which people may not have heard about and the details Monbiot avoids.

It remains highly controversial - for many who rely on the mass media - as anyone thinking otherwise is labelled a "conspiracy theorist" beofre they draw a second breath. But what should you do when the actual history contradicts the government? Ditch the history? Come on, that's how totalitarian states work. We have to respect the history, the facts, even the uncomfortable ones. Not least because we live in deliberately uncomfortable times.

Because of this discomfort, the meeting with William Rodriguez next week I am organising in a personal capacity and not under a Green Party banner nor a Stop the War one. Monbiot's argument is that 9/11 history distracts people from being antiwar, say, or other major challenges. But it hasn't distracted me. I know they are going after Iran. We know how ruthless they will be. At the last conference however, the Green Party did vote in majority to support the American GP in its call to reopen an independent 9/11 investigation. But being an emergency motion it was a couple of votes short of the required 67% in this case.

A New York poll in 2004 split 50-50 between those who believed Bush and 'those infected by Monbiot's virus' who suspected the government had a hand in it. The "infection" will only have spread since.

An open mind is a really important thing in history. Otherwise all we know is received history, that written by rulers and kings, those in power, and the media who mediate it. It took about 500 years for the conquests of Columbus and Pizzarro, etc, to be seen as anything other than good. It took 200 years (depending on where we start) for slavery to be seen as bad. It took 12 years for most Germans to realise Hitler was a monster. So what's 5 years for an event - at least used by Bush - to shape American policy in such vicious and self-serving directions?

We have a duty to the world to look more closely than the highly controlled 9/11 commission which hid half the evidence given to it anyway.

These are the sorts of things Willie will be talking about and I hope Monbiot's poor performance in this challenging arena doesnt put you off.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------

For a detailed reply to him see - Peter Meyer

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/reply-to-monbiot.htm

Note of caution regarding serendipity / Peter Meyer. His opinions are controversial within the movement
http://911review.com/denial/holocaust.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groups_and_individuals_challenging_the_of ficial_account_of_9/11#Peter_Meyer

Further comments here

http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,2007519,00.html

[flamesong]

George Monbiot's article doesn't really require any further comment - its lack of merit speaks for itself. But that it has elicited over 600 comments in the two days since its publication is surely noteworthy. I started to read them but soon realised what a Sisyphusian task it would be. No article (at least none which is currently available) by George Monbiot received even half this number of comments.

[Jayhawk]

Interesting that all four letters published in the Guardian today are anti-Monbiot. Maybe they have none in support...?

[scubadiver]

Comment near to the bottom of the page. This person sides with the movement but remains quite objective and balanced: