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THETRUTHWILLSETU3
9/11 Truth critic
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: by itself Reply with quote

CONNECTING THE DOTS ON 9/11: NO PLANES

OF COURSE, at first blush, the idea that no real planes were used in 9/11 seems absurd.

But when ALL the evidence is taken into account, it is the only reasonable conclusion.

So let's go through it piece by piece---

BY ITSELF, videos that show conflicting plane paths for the second hit do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps a network created footage because they were too cheap to buy footage, or wanted more dramatic footage than what was available. But clearly these videos show the south tower exploding. If planes were added in-- what happened to THE REAL PLANE in the video?

BY ITSELF, weird anomalies in photos and videos of the second hit do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps there was something strange in the air that day that made the plane look strange. But is this really a convincing explanation?

BY ITSELF, the fact that the second plane completely melted into the south tower, without slowing, or distorting or breaking or exploding upon impact does not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps that is just the way a fast large bodied jetliner impacts a steel frame building-- even though it defies physics and examples of other plane crashes.

BY ITSELF, the fact that CNN footage of the second hit shows signs of editing and signs of sloppy bluescreen technology do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps CNN had good reason to alter the video, though it is not at all clear what these reasons might be.

BY ITSELF, the fact that the airplane wings and tail cut through large steel columns on the WTC wall do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. But it sure is strange that the fuel carried in the wings was never ignited by the impact of the wings on these large columns. And it sure is strange the huge tail section, which breaks off quite easily in other plane crashes, slid into the building without a hitch.

BY ITSELF, the fact that the south tower fireball came out all on one side of the building, even though the plane hit straight on and just slightly off-center, do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. But it sure is strange, particularly in comparison to the North tower hit, where explosions came out all sides of the building.

BY ITSELF, the fact that very few airplane parts were found at any 9/11 crash site do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Sure, perhaps these were incredibly violent plane crashes that tore up the plane much more than in "normal" crashes-- but it still does make one wonder, since typically plane crashes are quite violent but still leave plenty of parts on the ground.

BY ITSELF, the fact that the few airplane parts were found at any 9/11 crash site were not verified to make sure they matched the plane that officially crashed at that site does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. After all, why does the government need to prove anything to anyone?

BY ITSELF, the fact that officially, no black boxes were found in the rubble at the WTC, does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Even though these boxes are incredibly sturdy and meant to survive the worst plane crashes, the fact that FOUR of these boxes (two per plane) vanished at Ground Zero only shows how destructive the unusual collapses of the two towers was.*

BY ITSELF, the fact that the official flight path of the Pentagon crash is impossible does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it does make one wonder what really happened.

BY ITSELF, the fact that the official story of the crash of UA93 makes absolutely no sense does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it makes you wonder what the hell the government is lying about.

BY ITSELF, the fact that flights 11 and 77 were not scheduled to fly on 9/11 does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it sure tends to support that flights 11 and 77 were not involved in the attacks.

BY ITSELF, the fact the passenger lists for the four 9/11 planes are highly suspect, does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it makes you wonder why we can't have the truth.

BY ITSELF, the fact that it is highly doubtful terrorists training on small prop planes and flight simulators could have piloted the planes so effectively on 9/11 does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Perhaps they got REALLY lucky.

BY ITSELF, the fact that terrorists armed at most with knives, boxcutters and fake bombs took over four large jets with not one of eight pilots notifying air traffic control of a hijacking by any standard means does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Perhaps they got REALLY REALLY lucky. But how much luck can we reasonably expect for the terrorists on that day?

BY ITSELF, the fact that officially, forty minutes after two hijacked jets attacked New York City, a third hijacked plane flew hundreds of miles before penetrating Washington DC airspace to attack the Pentagon WITHOUT AIR FORCE INTERCEPTION-- this does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Perhaps NORAD just had a REALLY REALLY BAD DAY. But when can we simply laugh at the absurdity of the official story?

BY ITSELF, the fact that the media lies about what the government does all the time, and covers for the government all the time, does not prove no plane was used on 9/11. But certainly the media is capable of covering up and disseminating such a huge lie.

BY ITSELF, the fact that 9/11 has all the features of a highly sophisticated covert operation that was years in the works and was an operation that clearly aided geopolitical goals of the US does not prove no plane was used on 9/11. But it would support the idea that the 9/11 planners would know how difficult and therefore risky it would be to control real hijackings and real aircraft.

So, indeed-- all these things BY THEMSELVES do not prove that 9/11 was carried out without real planes.

But together, all the evidence presented here points to the idea that-- NO REAL PLANES WERE USED IN 9/11.

What WAS used for the 9/11 attacks?

My current hypothesis is pre-planted bombs and missiles (possibly cloaked missiles). However, the whole POINT is that the whole operation rested on the idea of making it LOOK as though planes were used. Thus, a few plane parts were planted, videos were faked, "witnesses" were coached, hijacked plane paths were faked, hijackings were faked, cockpit radio transmissions were faked, plane passenger lists were created with fake IDs and passenger/crew phone calls were faked. Possibly a real Boeing jet flew near each 9/11 crash site to act as a decoy.** Some real passengers were likely killed on 9/11 or given new identities.

Doesn't the scale of this operation make it seem highly implausible?

Clearly 9/11 was a very large complicated operation, with many interconnecting parts. I think the whole thing could have been done with perhaps 50-100 key operatives who knew much of the plot. These people would be subject assassination if they spoke out. Some of them may have been killed on 9/11 itself. Other people would be involved but not know the whole story and might even think what they were doing was innocuous (FBI agents for instance).

Is my theory hard to believe?

Yes. Of course!

But what is even harder to believe is the official 9/11 story-- particularly in light of the evidence presented above.



*My theory is that the planes attacking the WTC meme was planted so effectively by TV imagery that there was no attempt to plant boxes at the WTC. Whereas at the Pentagon and Shanksville, there were more immediate doubts about whether a plane had crashed there, and so the black box story was fabricated for these two sites. Later, when some in the 9/11 skeptic movement started to doubt if normal planes hit the WTC, stories were planted in the underground media that black boxes WERE found but that their existence was kept secret by the FBI.

**Interestingly, the timing of the attacks were such that in theory ONE JET could have flown by the WTC north tower to mimic flight 11, then overflown Manhattan and turned around and came back to mimic flight 175, then this same jet could have hightailed it to Washington DC to fly over the Pentagon, then would still have had time to get to the Shanksville area to mimic flgiht 93. Researcher Woody Box has found that a Boeing 767 was "stolen" on 9/11, which could have been used for this purpose-- as well as to send radio transmissions from the "hijacked jets". Finally, this idea is supported by the fact that, as documented in the 9/11 commission report, air traffic controllers initially thought flight 11 continued flying after flying by Manhattan.
posted by Spooked at 7:41 PM

1 Comments:
CJ Wall said...
Are you serious?? Or are you just trying to make fun of people who actually are so stupid that they buy into these absurd conspiracy theories? How about all the people who were there who witnessed the crashes first hand (as in not on tv)? Do you have an explanation for that? And what about the people whose family members died in the plane crashes? Are they just imagining that they had a husband/wife/son/daughter?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with many of the findings in this,(where's it pasted from? always nice to have a source). However the devil is in the detail you know, and where things get bogged down,absurd and offputting for some I'm sure.
The baying hounds appear to have the upper hand here at the moment.
Are you thinking they need some exercise?

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numeral
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dh wrote:
I agree with many of the findings in this,(where's it pasted from? always nice to have a source). However the devil is in the detail you know, and where things get bogged down,absurd and offputting for some I'm sure.
The baying hounds appear to have the upper hand here at the moment.
Are you thinking they need some exercise?


http://ghostplane.blogspot.com/

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Fallious
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: by itself Reply with quote

THETRUTHWILLSETU3 wrote:

BY ITSELF, videos that show conflicting plane paths for the second hit do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps a network created footage because they were too cheap to buy footage, or wanted more dramatic footage than what was available. But clearly these videos show the south tower exploding. If planes were added in-- what happened to THE REAL PLANE in the video?


The implication here is that NPT has demonstrated that various videos DO show planes taking different paths. I have personally looked at a wide collection of these claims and found none of them to be true. My signiture features one such analysis which not only debunks but also demonstrates the subject NPT movie to be highly suspect. NPT does not demonstrate that we should expect to see anything differently.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, weird anomalies in photos and videos of the second hit do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps there was something strange in the air that day that made the plane look strange. But is this really a convincing explanation?


Again, an implication that NPTheorists have demonstrated that the video's and photos of the planes ARE NOT what we would expect to see. I have not seen a single fair comparison to demonstrate this, and every single 'anomaly' pointed out by NPT is exactly what video experts would expect to see.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that the second plane completely melted into the south tower, without slowing, or distorting or breaking or exploding upon impact does not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps that is just the way a fast large bodied jetliner impacts a steel frame building-- even though it defies physics and examples of other plane crashes.


Well this is a two part point, the first being exactly the same as the previous one so that deserves a similar answer: NPT has not demonstrated that we should expect to see anything different and experienced individuals have explained every anomaly that NPT raises in regard to this footage.

The second point, regarding the physics of the crash has a painfully similar answer again: NPT has not demonstrated that we should expect to see anything different in regards to the crash physics, while physics experts have produced studies showing that the plane impact is exactly as we expect.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that CNN footage of the second hit shows signs of editing and signs of sloppy bluescreen technology do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Perhaps CNN had good reason to alter the video, though it is not at all clear what these reasons might be.


The CNN footage does not show signs of editing or blue screen technology and even if it did, NPT has not demonstrated that we should expect to see anything different.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that the airplane wings and tail cut through large steel columns on the WTC wall do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. But it sure is strange that the fuel carried in the wings was never ignited by the impact of the wings on these large columns. And it sure is strange the huge tail section, which breaks off quite easily in other plane crashes, slid into the building without a hitch.


Visual physical simulations of the plane wing have demonstrated that it held almost THREE TIMES more energy at impact than was required to smash through the steel columns in their ENTIRETY, let alone shatter the 1” bolts connecting each beam. Though the wing easily penetrates the columns it is also ripped into pieces. It’s beyond ridiculous to suggest that this impact would result in visible flames during the planes ENTRY into the building. Oh yes and NPT has failed to demonstrate that we should expect anything different.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that the south tower fireball came out all on one side of the building, even though the plane hit straight on and just slightly off-centre, do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. But it sure is strange, particularly in comparison to the North tower hit, where explosions came out all sides of the building.


“Just slightly off centre” being well over to the right hand side and exiting right on the north east corner. Also, NPT has failed to demonstrate that we should expect to see anything different.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that very few airplane parts were found at any 9/11 crash site do not conclusively tell us that no plane was used. Sure, perhaps these were incredibly violent plane crashes that tore up the plane much more than in "normal" crashes-- but it still does make one wonder, since typically plane crashes are quite violent but still leave plenty of parts on the ground.


As it happens, we don’t have a previous case to examine in this case but I would counter that the impact of a Boeing 767 into one of the largest pieces of “mosquito netting” like structure in the world result in shredding of all but the most solid parts of the aircraft. Oh, and as you admit – NPT has failed to demonstrate that we should expect anything else.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that the few airplane parts were found at any 9/11 crash site were not verified to make sure they matched the plane that officially crashed at that site does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. After all, why does the government need to prove anything to anyone?


If this is true, then I agree.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that officially, no black boxes were found in the rubble at the WTC, does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Even though these boxes are incredibly sturdy and meant to survive the worst plane crashes, the fact that FOUR of these boxes (two per plane) vanished at Ground Zero only shows how destructive the unusual collapses of the two towers was.*


Indeed, it does not indicate NPT anymore than it indicates the planes were made of marshmallow, however it does indicate that the boxes themselves probably were ‘removed’ from the scene and destroyed because they contain revealing information about the plane’s flight path just as the pentagon black box does.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that the official flight path of the Pentagon crash is impossible does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it does make one wonder what really happened.


The pentagon flight path has been repeatedly demonstrated to be possible.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that the official story of the crash of UA93 makes absolutely no sense does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it makes you wonder what the hell the government is lying about.


I agree, but again, I prefer my marshmallow plane theory and it’s equally supported by this point.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that flights 11 and 77 were not scheduled to fly on 9/11 does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it sure tends to support that flights 11 and 77 were not involved in the attacks.


Unfortunately this information only became available on the web years after the attacks, ergo it is highly suspect. Regardless, it corroborates my marshmallow plan theory.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact the passenger lists for the four 9/11 planes are highly suspect, does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. But it makes you wonder why we can't have the truth.


Agreed. However the fact that a passenger lists exist for the aircraft is not a point in favour of NPT.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that it is highly doubtful terrorists training on small prop planes and flight simulators could have piloted the planes so effectively on 9/11 does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Perhaps they got REALLY lucky.


Or perhaps it prove a myriad of other significantly more likely scenarios: Trained pilots, remote pilots, automated pilots, other unknown technology.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that terrorists armed at most with knives, boxcutters and fake bombs took over four large jets with not one of eight pilots notifying air traffic control of a hijacking by any standard means does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Perhaps they got REALLY REALLY lucky. But how much luck can we reasonably expect for the terrorists on that day?


However the fact that the pilots and (most) terrorists are now missing is a fairly good indicator of the outcome of this event.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that officially, forty minutes after two hijacked jets attacked New York City, a third hijacked plane flew hundreds of miles before penetrating Washington DC airspace to attack the Pentagon WITHOUT AIR FORCE INTERCEPTION-- this does not prove no plane was used in 9/11. Perhaps NORAD just had a REALLY REALLY BAD DAY. But when can we simply laugh at the absurdity of the official story?


Except for the testimony which places Donald Rumsfeld inside the pentagon ordering the Pentagon’s defences stay down while an aircraft was incoming.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that the media lies about what the government does all the time, and covers for the government all the time, does not prove no plane was used on 9/11. But certainly the media is capable of covering up and disseminating such a huge lie.


No, I’m afraid you are wrong, it’s blatantly not. Oh and, NPT has failed to demonstrate that we should expect any different.

Quote:
BY ITSELF, the fact that 9/11 has all the features of a highly sophisticated covert operation that was years in the works and was an operation that clearly aided geopolitical goals of the US does not prove no plane was used on 9/11. But it would support the idea that the 9/11 planners would know how difficult and therefore risky it would be to control real hijackings and real aircraft.


Is this even a point?

---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------
---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------

Quote:
So, indeed-- all these things BY THEMSELVES do not prove that 9/11 was carried out without real planes.


Ok, so I count that as three lies, twelve easily refuted points, two points which actually count against NPT, and one valid point (which indicates marshmallow plane theory).

Quote:
But together, all the evidence presented here points to the idea that-- NO REAL PLANES WERE USED IN 9/11.


Yup, clear as mud isn’t it?

Oh by the way, I like that you C+P’d this into the article!

Quote:
1 Comments:
CJ Wall said...
Are you serious?? Or are you just trying to make fun of people who actually are so stupid that they buy into these absurd conspiracy theories? How about all the people who were there who witnessed the crashes first hand (as in not on tv)? Do you have an explanation for that? And what about the people whose family members died in the plane crashes? Are they just imagining that they had a husband/wife/son/daughter?


Feels like a gentle jog around the block.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://ghostplane.blogspot.com/
I'm not sure why you're addressing this in response to me numeral. I'm fully aware of NPT and posted it repeatedly elsewhere back in 03 after some interaction with webfairy. I don't need convincing. What I was trying to say was that the detail of how always bogs down the general drift of why and other pertinent questions
The ultra liberal and tolerant posting policy combined with the decision to deign some points of view 'controversial' has given the 'howlers' the upper hand at the moment on the mainline, so it's possibly best to avoid the 'how' at the moment. how=howlers

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