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| Do you want to discuss the evidence? |
| Yes |
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91% |
[ 11 ] |
| No |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| I don't care about the evidence. |
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8% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 12 |
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Message |
Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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 Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: Do you want to discuss the evidence? |
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So come on who places any value on evidence?
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rodin
Validated Poster
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 2224
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Yes of course!
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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So come on who's the member that doesn't care about the evidence?
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DDD911
Minor Poster
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 72
Location: UK, Essex
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Brown wrote: | | So come on who's the member that doesn't care about the evidence? |
Hmmm its a little bit silly, and very worrying that someone has actually voted not to care about evidence.
Doesn’t surprise me though this place has some very colourful characters, I don’t know why they are part of a truth movement but there you go.
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rodin
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 2224
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| DDD911 wrote: | | Patrick Brown wrote: | | So come on who's the member that doesn't care about the evidence? |
Hmmm its a little bit silly, and very worrying that someone has actually voted not to care about evidence.
Doesn’t surprise me though this place has some very colourful characters, I don’t know why they are part of a truth movement but there you go. |
I do
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telecasterisation
Banned
Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 1873
Location: Upstairs
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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I realise it is a stock response and a cliche, but given the way arguments here are based upon what many consider as 'evidence', I personally would find it useful to define exactly what constitutes 'evidence'? I am not asking for specific examples, more the definition.
We have a plethora of ideas, concepts, speculative notions and all kinds of ancillary bits out there on the periphery, which are based upon video clips, witness statements and Snowy's calculations - but (yes I know we have been over this many times), but can anyone honestly say that we have any concrete evidence? Would any of it be enough to convict in a court of law?
Steel framed buildings shouldn't collapse that quickly, or even at all, planes shouldn't virtually disappear after crashing, the military should have responded quicker, there shouldn't have been rivers of molten metal running about under Ground Zero etc etc - but this is all 'circumstantial evidence' more than 'evidence' surely?
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rodin
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Posts: 2224
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| telecasterisation wrote: | I realise it is a stock response and a cliche, but given the way arguments here are based upon what many consider as 'evidence', I personally would find it useful to define exactly what constitutes 'evidence'? I am not asking for specific examples, more the definition.
We have a plethora of ideas, concepts, speculative notions and all kinds of ancillary bits out there on the periphery, which are based upon video clips, witness statements and Snowy's calculations - but (yes I know we have been over this many times), but can anyone honestly say that we have any concrete evidence? Would any of it be enough to convict in a court of law?
Steel framed buildings shouldn't collapse that quickly, or even at all, planes shouldn't virtually disappear after crashing, the military should have responded quicker, there shouldn't have been rivers of molten metal running about under Ground Zero etc etc - but this is all 'circumstantial evidence' more than 'evidence' surely? |
Well this is precisely the point I have been trying to make. Much of the 'evidence' becomes so simply though repetition. Until we go to court. When it gets demolished.
I think for all the circumstantial evidence, only a few nuggets are irrefutible.
This site does quite a good job of evidence distillation
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/evidence.html
Note: the freefall collapse meme was one I lost faith in for a bit, but I will prove (I think) soon enough that at least one tower fell at free-fall speed.
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's a case of sorting the facts from the fiction. And at the end of the day we may find that we don't actually have that many facts. Even Steven Jones theory of thermite might be fiction as pure aluminum is indeed silvery at it's melting point (600c) but the the alloys of the aircraft weren't pure aluminum. I'll need to do a bit of research but if alloys glow when molten at 600c and above then that's the molten metal seen dripping from the south tower, err, out the window!!
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marky 54
Mega Poster
Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 3293
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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i cannot vote again 
but i would of put yes. there is no choice from what i can see but to try and get facts straight. the only way to do that is to discuss the evidence. |
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Bongo
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 687
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| Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Patrick Wrote...
| Quote: | | Even Steven Jones theory of thermite might be fiction |
... Surely the point is that; at least Steven put forward the hypothesis to be tested, which is more than NIST were willing to do.
NIST claim...
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm
| Quote: | NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:
1. the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;
2. the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors. |
... Yet they provide 'NO' calculations to support these assumptions. We are simply asked to believe their statement. 
Ps. Surely the 'NO' option and the 'I don't care about the evidence.' option in the above poll is the same thing? |
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Bongo wrote: | | Ps. Surely the 'NO' option and the 'I don't care about the evidence.' option in the above poll is the same thing? |
The difference between the “No” option and the “I don't care” option is probably something like this:
No because I just know it's wrong as I have a feeling about it i.e. People who live through their emotions.
I don't care about the evidence because American's are scum and deserve to die i.e. People who live through their emotions!
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scar
Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Brown wrote: |
The difference between the “No” option and the “I don't care is” option is probably something like this:
No because I just know it's wrong as I have a feeling about it i.e. People who live through their emotions.
I don't care about the evidence because American's are scum and deserve to die i.e. People who live through their emotions! |
Do you really have such a low opinion of people here?
I cant think of anyone here who would wish death on Americans. What a funny comment to make on a site dedicated to getting at the truth behind 911. As far as i can tell people here care about ALL human life.
Have you considered that people might have examined the evidence in the years before you woke up? I think a no vote here might be from someone who has done their research and spends their time campaigning rather than going round in circles with someone who appears to have an agenda.
Im quite shocked at the vile assumptions in your post, nothing new there though.
Something very see through gwarrrn. |
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| scar wrote: | I cant think of anyone here who would wish death on Americans. [so you know every member?] What a funny comment to make on a site dedicated to getting at the truth behind 911. [some people are trying to do something else!] As far as i can tell people here care about ALL human life. [you see what you want to see]
Have you considered that people might have examined the evidence in the years before you woke up? [yes but have they checked it all?] I think a no vote here might be from someone who has done their research and spends their time campaigning rather than going round in circles with someone who appears to have an agenda. [sorry but I don't have an agenda the campaigners do, so what are you campaigning for again?]
Im quite shocked at the vile assumptions in your post, nothing new there though. [so people burn the American flag because the love them?]
Something very see through gwarrrn. [so what are you campigning for again?] |
I don't think it's possible to stop questioning as I can see the arguments for the OCT and the CT.
Unfortunately I'm beginning to find holes and errors in the CT so tonights BBC documentary will be interesting. Time is passing by and the waters are being mudded so I'm not sure if we'll ever get to the truth although that doesn't mean we should stop trying.
Some people question why the American government hasn't openly debunked the CT. I think the answer is that if they acknowledged the CT they would simple add fuel to the fire. But the American government may be happier with the CT because it's a good distraction from something else! There may or may not be a “something else” but at the end of the day I don't think it matters as we all know what's next.
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scar
Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Once again you reveal your agenda through deliberately obfuscating every point to fit it.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | I cant think of anyone here who would wish death on Americans. [so you know every member?] |
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Do you know anyone here who wishes death on the American people? You are the one who said it.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | What a funny comment to make on a site dedicated to getting at the truth behind 911. [some people are trying to do something else!] |
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You would know. (paraphrased) 'Arabs autonomously timing their attacks to fit drills...thanks to leaks...' LOL, why would i want to debate evidence with someone who comes up with such obvious see through nonsense?
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | As far as i can tell people here care about ALL human life. [you see what you want to see] |
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And you dont see what you want to see? Provide evidence that people here dont care about all human life or retract it. JREF tactic, i wonder why, its quite telling of the derision you hold for truthers.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | Have you considered that people might have examined the evidence in the years before you woke up? [yes but have they checked it all?] |
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Perhaps not, perhaps they've seen enough to know a new investigation is needed to find out the rest... Perhaps theyve seen a lot more than you, evidenced by your frequent unwillingness to explore beyond the mainstream and instant ridicule of everything new. i.e.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | I think a no vote here might be from someone who has done their research and spends their time campaigning rather than going round in circles with someone who appears to have an agenda. [sorry but I don't have an agenda the campaigners do, so what are you campaigning for again?] |
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What are you on about?
Continous attacks have now turned into debunking threads at the correct time, i saw it coming as did many...
I was just laying out a different possibility to your nasty ones, but again i see the vile assumption there and the confession that you dont campaign, spending all your time muddying the water, instilling doubt and causing trouble here.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | Im quite shocked at the vile assumptions in your post, nothing new there though. [so people burn the American flag because the love them?]
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WHAT? Where did that come from?
Who here burns flags? If i burn a flag does that mean i want American people to die?
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | Something very see through gwarrrn. [so what are you campigning for again?]
I don't think it's possible to stop questioning as I can see the arguments for the OCT and the CT. |
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The see through is your facade.
Im not saying every argument is correct, or to stop questionning, a strawman implication. We need a new investigation. Do you not agree?
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | Unfortunately I'm beginning to find holes and errors in the CT so tonights BCC documentary will be interesting. |
Why is unfortunately used there? Which CT? Its not a unified theory is it... Multi-faceted.
Surely the truth is all that matters?
If you want to know what will be in tonights programme goto 911 myths, read debunking 911 and popular mechanics. Im sure you have. Are you expecting something new? It'll be a whitewash.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | Time is passing by and the waters are being mudded so I'm not sure if we'll ever get to the truth although that doesn't mean we should stop trying. |
I never said we should but without a new investigation we will never know 100% truth.
Very rich you saying the waters are being muddied. The M.O.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | the American government may be happier with the CT because it's a good distraction from something else! |
hahahaha... nuff said.
Toodlepip.
This thread is a joke. People discuss evidence here all the time. A poll asking people with 2 answers that you can interpret in a negative way in order to pass judgement from your investigative high horse didnt slip past the radar. Just letting you know. |
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Patrick Brown
9/11 Truth critic
Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| scar wrote: | Once again you reveal your agenda through deliberately obfuscating every point to fit it.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | I cant think of anyone here who would wish death on Americans. [so you know every member?] |
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Do you know anyone here who wishes death on the American people? You are the one who said it.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | What a funny comment to make on a site dedicated to getting at the truth behind 911. [some people are trying to do something else!] |
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You would know. (paraphrased) 'Arabs autonomously timing their attacks to fit drills...thanks to leaks...' LOL, why would i want to debate evidence with someone who comes up with such obvious see through nonsense?
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | As far as i can tell people here care about ALL human life. [you see what you want to see] |
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And you dont see what you want to see? Provide evidence that people here dont care about all human life or retract it. JREF tactic, i wonder why, its quite telling of the derision you hold for truthers.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | Have you considered that people might have examined the evidence in the years before you woke up? [yes but have they checked it all?] |
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Perhaps not, perhaps they've seen enough to know a new investigation is needed to find out the rest... Perhaps theyve seen a lot more than you, evidenced by your frequent unwillingness to explore beyond the mainstream and instant ridicule of everything new. i.e.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | | I think a no vote here might be from someone who has done their research and spends their time campaigning rather than going round in circles with someone who appears to have an agenda. [sorry but I don't have an agenda the campaigners do, so what are you campaigning for again?] |
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What are you on about?
Continous attacks have now turned into debunking threads at the correct time, i saw it coming as did many...
I was just laying out a different possibility to your nasty ones, but again i see the vile assumption there and the confession that you dont campaign, spending all your time muddying the water, instilling doubt and causing trouble here.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | Im quite shocked at the vile assumptions in your post, nothing new there though. [so people burn the American flag because the love them?]
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WHAT? Where did that come from?
Who here burns flags? If i burn a flag does that mean i want American people to die?
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | scar wrote: | Something very see through gwarrrn. [so what are you campigning for again?]
I don't think it's possible to stop questioning as I can see the arguments for the OCT and the CT. |
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The see through is your facade.
Im not saying every argument is correct, or to stop questionning, a strawman implication. We need a new investigation. Do you not agree?
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | Unfortunately I'm beginning to find holes and errors in the CT so tonights BCC documentary will be interesting. |
Why is unfortunately used there? Which CT? Its not a unified theory is it... Multi-faceted.
Surely the truth is all that matters?
If you want to know what will be in tonights programme goto 911 myths, read debunking 911 and popular mechanics. Im sure you have. Are you expecting something new? It'll be a whitewash.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | Time is passing by and the waters are being mudded so I'm not sure if we'll ever get to the truth although that doesn't mean we should stop trying. |
I never said we should but without a new investigation we will never know 100% truth.
Very rich you saying the waters are being muddied. The M.O.
| Patrick Brown wrote: | | the American government may be happier with the CT because it's a good distraction from something else! |
hahahaha... nuff said.
Toodlepip.
This thread is a joke. People discuss evidence here all the time. A poll asking people with 2 answers that you can interpret in a negative way in order to pass judgement from your investigative high horse didnt slip past the radar. Just letting you know. |
That's a big hole you just dug!
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scar
Moderate Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 724
Location: Brighton
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Brown wrote: |
That's a big hole you just dug! |
You're quite a long way down. |
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AllThatWeSeeOrSeem
Minor Poster
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 49
Location: North West
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: Goodbye Patrick |
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take your mischief with you
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