Serious question for Truthers

[Batrabill]

One piece of evidence that seems uncontrovertible is that the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2 began very close to where the planes hit.

It is clear that there is a failure of one or more floors close to the fires. This either triggers the collapse (if you think the building fell down) or is the first initiating failure (if you think it was blown down)

Therefore, if the buildings were wired throughout with explosives, then to make the buildings come down as they did will require the explosives on those floors to fire first, then sequentially down the building.

In CD the explosives are rarely fired in one go. Delays are put in the system so that the effect of gravity is maximised. These delays are either electrical and relatively easy to set, or physical when using det cord/shock tube.

The explosives must be placed very regularly in the building to allow for variability in where the planes hit. if the plane hits on floor 50 and you've wired floor 60 it is going to look fake.

Either you have a poorly trained terrorist flying the plane or some fly by wire jock back at base, and there must be a fairly large margin of error allowed for. I can't remember which plane did a steep bank just before impact, but it doesn't suggest a pefect hit.

So to make this look good, the building is wired up every 2, 3, 4? floors. Between 50 and 100 - the area the plane should hit? (You realise I'm making this up, so feel free to argue with these guesses)

At the least, that means a minimum of 12 floors fully wired up with explosives in the middle of the building.

I say fully wired up because one of the reasons you believe it is a CD is that the buildings fall in a symetrical way. If the building is super strong and ridgid (the reason you wont believe it just fell down) then to make it fall you must have the facility to cut away a high number of the load bearing members on each of these floors.

I wont even speculate on how many charges are needed, and it doesn't matter if they are HE, Thermite, or potty putty. These charges will sever the load bearing columns, that's all that matters.

So, the planes hit and now you have to arrange the delays in the system so that the collapse is initiated at the correct place, (that's what we observe) and then work their way down the building.

You may doubt this is necessary, but imagine you completely sever the load bearing structures at the ground first. What you will view then is the entire building moving. I don't think you even claim that is what happens.

You also, because you wont believe that the falling mass of the upper floors destroys the floors below, need to have explosives all the way to the ground to "pulverise the building into micron dust"

So, on that basis lets assume we rig up every 6th floor with a ring of charges.
We now have about 19 floors fully rigged with explosives.

I don't want to make life more difficult, but you all seem to believe that dropping huge structures from 1000 feet up will not be sufficient to destroy them totally (something I have witnessed in tower blocks of just 20 stories.) So you might want to rig up the upper floors too.

Problem here is - the upper floors are disconected. A plane just flew through all the wires/shock tube.

So the upper floors are going to need radio control. Never been done before, but theoretically possible. Needs to be carefully timed to go off on the way down or it will be a real giveaway. The radio control HAS to work or we'll end up with wired-up rubble.

So here are the logistical problems we need to overcome.

1 Rigging - this is a lot of work. Shaped charges to cut the steel, externally fitted, so they will have to be disguised.

Thermite not needed. Just a fantasy solution. In my view, as soon as I hear the word Thermite I think Loony Tunes.

2 Wiring
A hell of a wiring job. If you enter a building just before CD it is THICK with wires or Shock Tube. So we are looking at miles of the stuff - all hidden.

3 Detonation
The sequencing and timing must be changed in about an hour to fit the impact point of the planes.

If I saw one of these buildings mysteriously give way on floor 39 I would believe in CD, but I don't. The collapse is initiated on the same level as the fires.

4 Staffing
Blowing up the WTC's would have been a great job for a CD expert if it was decided they should be removed - the pinnacle of their profession. I don't believe it would ever have been attempted because of the danger of it going wrong. But I am sure that it could have been done.

I would guess that a blaster would want the buildings for prep for 6 months with a vast team.
Most demolition work is done to remove everything you can from a building before demolition. The placing of the charges is usually a smaller part of the job, but this is BIG.
How many people you gonna get on your team who wont talk?
10? 20? Every one is a risk.
It takes a qualified person somewhere between 10 minutes and an hour to fix one charge. You have thousands. These people need to be well trained or things are going to go wrong.

This is going to be tough doing this at weekends and evenings.

Also, who is in charge? There are not much more than 100 people in the world who have blown up buildings. The big boys, the ones who have actually done big towers and really large buildings, you are talking about the fingers of one hand. The military would be one place to start, but it's not really their field. Not much call for controlled work in the miilitary.

5 Control

The blast has to be coordinated from somewhere, so there has to be somewhere nearby, but not too close, where all the detonation wires must go to. (I've given up on shock tube. It flashes when it fires, a bit of a giveaway)

6 Secrecy
This makes all of the above look easy. This is all happening in New York, and those people are nosy and love to talk.

7 Evidence
As a demolition expert you KNOW that some of these thousands of charges aren't going to go off. We are not talking about nitrogylcerine here, we are talking about HE. This you can burn, hit with a hammer, do anything to and it wont go bang.

You did this damn job in a hurry NOT using demolition professionals but those you trained specially. And, just before you are going to blow up this building they want to crash a plane into it.

This is not going to be good for your wires all twisted togther from charge to charge.

That means you cant afford one detonator or length of explosive to be found.

The people who work at ground zero, they are a worry. I don't know where to start with this one. We can't let them all in on it. So what happens when Fred, whose been in construction for 30 years recognises a detonator? Or a lump of HE? Can we get to the foremen, site supervisors. Phew. pretty hard

(Well you know what? That never happened. Phew. Not one bit of evidence was found.)

Looks a bit daunting as a job of work.

So how about an alternative?

Terrorists flew planes into the twin towers. These two structures were unique in their size, their construction AND vitally, that they are the only buildings to experience a modern jet impacting them well above the ground.

These buildings were not as resistant to these huge impacts and fires as the people who built them thought they would be.

After a while the weakening caused by the fire cause the floors where the fires were hottest to fail. The top section of both towers fell onto the bottom sections. This is a catastrophic act of almost unimaginable force. The buildings failed totally and fell straight down (as buildings do) the force of gravity reducing the fabric of the building to what we all saw removed - rubble. They damaged WT7, which also succumbed to fire. (I think the architects have some answers to give on this one)

So the question is.. which one of these scenarios is more plausible?

I wont even ask WHY?

But I will ask why demolition?

If I was head of Black Operations and I'd managed to get two planes to hit the WTC I'd be thrilled. That sounds hard enough to get away with, so why go that extra mile. Actually, looks more like a million miles, and blow them up as well??

Seems a little far fetched.

[Ignatz]

Your post is absolutely riddled with logic and reason. No goooot.

Your head will shortly explode dealing with 9/11 truthers, so escape while you can. (mine suffered a minor implosion, but I think I got away with it)

"How did the explosives/cutting charges survive the aircraft impacts, so that collapse could be initiated at the impact zone?" Well, they were sooper dooper sekrit Gubmint issued explosives nobody knows about, 'cos the Gubmint are very powerful and can do this stuff. A bit like GOD parting the Red Sea for the Israelites, 'cos he can.

Such is the level of Twoofer logic.

[mediadisbeliever]

If any evidence of explosives work was found it would hardly be made available to us would it! The supervisors and the crew cleaning up the site etc are hightly unlikely to risk their jobs by telling the media or anyone else...it's as simple as that! They wouldn't just be in the S*** with their colleagues they'd also be in the s*** with the authorities for leaking out confidential information. That's the sort of pressure they will be under.

End of Story...Inside Job Batrabill!

You are talking as if you have experience of explosives and buildings...and you are trying to give us the impression of being modest...which isn't working. You are not being true to the evidence which clearly shows us that buildings which have all the distinguishing features of demolitions,(squibs, mushroom cloud effect and which fall at in their own footprints are controlled demolitions work) as per the many videos we have often seen of this pre-determined disaster.
Face the TRUTH!

[rodin]

[pepik]

Is it just me or do you get the impression that most troofers wouldn't risk their jobs at Burger King if they found out the manager was using human flesh for the hamburgers?

[rodin]

[Stefan]

So is any critic going to respond to the fact that evidence WAS found-

Steel which had suffered an extreme heat corrosion attack including oxidation, sulfidation and severe intergranlar melting- impossible to be caused by gravity, office fire, keronsene fire or diesel fire?

In your own time...

[marky 54]

[marky 54]

the fact is the goverments are a body of authority and can be/seem intimidating to anyone who has information that could impliment them in a crime. even if its just in the persons head that their goverment would have it in for them if they spoke out is enough to put people off.

[IronSnot]

[gg]

[Batrabill]

When something goes 'bang' what do people call it? An explosion.

Proof of.... semantic imprecision.


Loony Tunes

[pepik]

[gg]

What is also very telling , are the many accounts of hearing and seeing explosions that occur at all times during the 56 minutes between the time of plane impact and 2 minutes before the south tower fell.

That 2 minute period before the south tower collapses is also interesting because all landline and cell phone communication was completely cut off from inside the both towers. The mobile phones being used by emergency rescue personnel outside the towers were also reported cut off for a 30 second period by a loud buzzing humming noise. Detonators????

[Johnny Pixels]

[marky 54]

[gg]

[pepik]

[rodin]

[Batrabill]

To change the subject back.

If the demolition was initiated by Thermite/mate 'bombs' in the basement, which seems to be the stock scenario, why didn't the building collapse from the basement?

[KP50]

[Batrabill]

It's been fun trolling around on here and annoying the 9/11 hobbyists. I've had a ball.

Early om I asked some serious questions which I think went unnanswered. Essentially they were practical - How is it possible to stage this massive operation and get away with it?

I don't feel that I ever got an answer to that central question.
All you get back is a torrent of circumstantial evidence and 2 + 2 = 22.
Thermate, faster than gravity, remote control, insurance job??

So I took to winding the poor sad bastads up, and it has been fun.

But actually this site and Dylan (I already have my Oscar speech written) Avery's Loose rubbish site do get my goat.

It's the way you have hijacked the Truth word. I'm a critic? You believe in truth.

Now I think most of you are Loony Tunes, can I recommend reading all Rodin's posts for instance? The Jewish conspiracy stuff leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have to be honest it rankles to see the word Truth at the top of a site that recommends the views of people who believe some weird things.

Once you use the truth word you set yourself a high hurdle.
But, the fact is, this site is dripping with untrue facts anbd innacuracies.
Most of you know there is stuff on here that is wrong. And much of the stuff that you think is right comes from people with very dodgy track records.

So, is it 'the Truth' that:

The US Government
Mossad
The BBC
Boeing Management
Boeing maintainence workers
CNN, PA, Reuters, etc etc
The workers at ground zero
ATC
The Military
CD experts
The clean up teams at Shanksville
The clean-up teams at the Pentagon
Telephone operatives who received calls from flight 93
Relatives who received calls from Flight 93
Airport operatives from several organisations
Larry Silverstein and his associates
Eye Witnesses from Shanksville
Eye witnesses from the Pentago
Eye witnesses from New York
Osama Bin laden
and Uncle Tom Cobbly

all agreed to take part in this conspiracy OR were brought into this conspiracy at some point, and ALL failed to tell anyone?

If you think that is the truth, then may God have mercy on your soul.

[KP50]

[Bushwacker]

[Batrabill]

They must have been lying.

I would never accuse people in the WTC of lying, but it is quite possible that they made a mistake.

You all work very hard at extrapolation. This 10 story building burned and did this so how...

I think you all try very hard to not look at how unique an event this was.

Two planes hit two huge buildings. There is no comparisoin to make.

So there were bangs inside the buildings? So what?

If the core supports were cut away why did the building collapse from the top down. I see no evidence that it did anyhting else. Shoiw mesome. So the 'explosions' in the basement didn't do anything??

Sherlock Holmes was an imaginary character and the "if you've eliminated" line is rubbish anyway. Because in your world you never eliminate - you invent Boeing planes that have secret software in them and Thermate to explain how it could have been done.

Oh sod it, I don't actually care what you think.

[KP50]

[Bushwacker]

[KP50]

[KP50]