Global warming causes...biggest con since 9/11... Mars proof

[Leiff]

Thanks for the info.

What do you think is the cause of the accelerated Martian icecap melt?

[wickywoowoo]

[johndoe]

"What do you think is the cause of the accelerated Martian icecap melt?"

the consistent decrease in the martian atmosphere.

mars is already in a state in which as soon as ice melts it boils because the pressure is so low that it does not allow liquid water to exist.

this will continue until mars has no atmosphere and no water, it will become a cold desolate wasteland (well more so). it will become a big solid rock and not much else.

also mars under goes far greater milankovitch cycles than earth (i can't be arsed explaining that just now, i will tomorrow if someone asks).

[ian neal]

Thanks John Doe.

It's helpful stuff

I've studied climatology and climate change to some extent but not to an extent I feel confident to reach definitive conclusions and certainly not to label global warming a scam. Even the most experienced climatologists accept their understanding is limited when compared to the complexity fo reality.

In fact the one conlusion I've reached is that collectively our abilities to understand global climate past and present and to use this to predict the future are severely limited. We know a lot but there are whole areas that are not well understood and great uncertainty about how the world's climate works and changes and the risks and possible speed of climate change.

Given this degree of uncertainty and the strong (many would argue overwhelming) evidence that human activity is the primary cause of global warming, I would always argue in favour of the precautionary principle. Namely that if there is genuine risk of catastrophic climate change that is being caused by human activity, it is our responsibility to the planet and future generations to act to reduce our impact.

And I'm inclined to believe there are hidden energy technologies that would provide solutions and unravelling the knowledge and secrets of the global / US military-industrial complex is key. Let the Powers That Be disclose what they know then we can have an informed debate both on energy and climate.

[johndoe]

"And I'm inclined to believe there are hidden energy technologies "

oh this really makes me angry

"energy technologies"
"energy beam"
"energy weapons"
"beam weapons"

however noone every volunteers what this "energy" is, is it electromagnetic? kinetic? sound? based on lasers? emmission of particles or antiparticles?

this very loose and never explained term "energy" is pointless.

[rodin]

[rodin]

Also I have saıd before I am unconcerned about CO2 'pollutıon'. CO2 ıs an essentıal part of the carbon cycle and lıfe thrıves on ıt. It ıs organıc halıde compunds and hormones etc that we need to be concerned about. These aın't natural and our bodıes know ıt.

[Thermate]

Ignoring co2 for the moment, just consider how much energy in the form of heat we as humans pump into this world? Nearly every mechanical or electronic device emits heat as a by-product. As do our ~8billion bodies. Every car/motorcycle pumps out heat as a by product of internal combustion. Every refrigerator outputs 2x as much heat as it cools. Every home is warm and cosy in the winter months. All that heat leaks straight into our surroundings and our atmosphere... The possible chemical reactions aren't even required to see that we are filling this planet with heat.

[rodin]

[rodin]

[johndoe]

"That means ıf Mars ıs ın a lınear warm up mode ıt has raısed ıts temperature by 100mıllıon degrees."

linear? why choose linear? and it wouldn't have been consistent, mars has went through various stages. it was volcanically active 50 million years ago (would have chucked out abit of co2 as well)

"The warmıng ıs cyclıcal and ın sync wıth Io Jupıter Pluto Earth etc.."

well let's go through these.... io is a giant volcano and so it gets quite a lot of heat from..... being a big giant volcano. jupiter generates more heat then it gets from the sun anwyay. and i don't know why you added pluto in there because what we know about pluto is...... well *, we've not even seen the surface properly.

"he warmıng ıs cyclıcal and ın sync wıth Io Jupıter Pluto Earth etc.. "

how do you judge sync when you've only been able to check for 30 years?

[rodin]

In sync for 30 years works for me

[johndoe]

30 years in 5 billion years of the solar system? that's enough for you?

[insidejob]

Cutting down on the pollution we put out into the atmosphere and into the earth seems to be necessary to me. But there's no need to use man-made global warming as an excuse.

The idea that humans in a part of the globe have put out pollution over a few centuries is causing the world that has lasted millions of years to warm in a way it never has, seems very strange.

Seems that other planets in the solar system are putting up with a warming.



http://www.mos.org/cst-archive/article/80/9.html
CURRENT SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
Global Warming on Mars?

A study of the ice caps on Mars may show that the red planet is experiencing a warming trend.

After decades of thinking that the ice caps on Mars were mostly carbon dioxide (dry ice), planetary geologists are starting to think that those caps may be mostly fresh water ice instead.

Caltech planetary scientists have been keeping a close eye on the dozens of deep, wide pits in the southern martian ice caps. These pits have been growing larger every year, but they never get any deeper.

The scientists believe this means that there is a layer of dry ice that is evaporating off of a thicker layer of water ice. The yearly increases in evaporation may be caused by a global warming trend happening on Mars.

If both Mars and Earth are experiencing global warming, then perhaps there is a larger phenomenon going on in the Solar System that is causing their global climates to change.
end1


http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/060504_red_jr.html
SPACE.COM
New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change
By Sara Goudarzi, Staff Writer, posted: 04 May 2006, 01:00 pm ET

A storm is brewing half a billion miles away and in a rare event, astronomers get to watch it closely.

Jupiter is growing a new red spot and the Hubble Space Telescope is photographing the scene. Backyard astronomers have been following the action, too.

"Red Spot Jr." as it is being called, formed after three white oval-shaped storms—two of which were at least 90 years old—merged between 1998 and 2000.

A similar merger took place centuries ago and formed the bigger and legendary Great Red Spot, a storm twice as big as Earth and almost 300 years old.

Close look

Close inspections of Red Spot Jr., in Hubble images released today, reveal that similar to the Great Red Spot, the more recently developed storm rises above the top of the main cloud deck on Jupiter.

Little is known about how storms form on the giant planet. They are often described as behaving similar to hurricanes on Earth. Some astronomers believe that the spots dredge up material deep below Jupiter's clouds and lift it to where the Sun's ultraviolet light chemically alters it to give it a red hue.

THE LATEST IMAGES COULD PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT JUPITER IS IN THE MIDST OF A GLOBAL CHANGE THAT CAN MODIFY TEMPERATURES BY AS MUCH AS 10 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT ON DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE GLOBE.

The study was led jointly by Imke de Pater and Philip Marcus of University of California, Berkeley.

"The storm is growing in altitude," de Pater said. "Before when they were just ovals they didn't stick out above the clouds. Now they are rising."

This growth signals a temperature increase in that region, she said.

Marking change

The global change cycle began when the last of the white oval-shaped storms formed south of the Great Red Spot in 1939. As the storms started to merge between 1998 and 2000, the mixing of heat began to slow down at that latitude and has continued slowing ever since.

The movement of heat from the equator to Jupiter's south pole is expected to stop at 34 degrees southern latitude, where Red Spot Jr. is forming.

This will create a big wall and stop the mixing of heat and airflow, the thinking goes. As a result, areas around the equator become warmer, while the poles can start to cool down.
end1

[johndoe]

the points you made insidejob have already been discussed. mars is undergoing constant change due to it's small size essentially (i can't be arsed going through how this effects it's atmosphere again). and jupiter generates more heat then it gets from the sun anyway.

[Leiff]

[Mark Gobell]

[Mark Gobell]

[Graham]

[johndoe]

"Discussed but not proven."

well the nature of proof is complex..... and in most cases impossible. gravity hasn't ever been proven either. and one of the longest standing problems in maths is to be able to proof a+b=c. it is always best to give up on the idea of 100% proof especially when the medium is an internet forum.

"johndoe, you seem well informed in astronomical matters. Can you point me in the right direction for data relating to the sun - especially luminosity/solar activity data plotted against time?"

well it was one of my areas of study. as for the request....... any data would be purely theoretical (we had great difficult measuring the activity of the sun 50 million years ago). the best i could find was: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7e/Milankovitch_Variations. png
solar forcing is the bit you should be looking at.

if you want something in the shorter term i would happily provide it.

it is best to remember something, if the sun is getting progressively substantially hotter over time what caused the ice age?

is is of course getting hotter, but what effect does that have on us?

does anyone know the daisy model?

"And all without a single SUV being harmed in the process or a single donkey fart spreading it's venomous greenhouse methane."

well first and foremost the methane thing is a common mistake, methan isn't really a greenhouse gas, it's a little bit too reactive for it's own good and so gets dis-associated in the atmosphere very quickly. we could pump out as much methane as we want and the sun would take care of it.

and secondly it is very big mistake to compare earth and mars. we are separate and different planets.

[Mark Gobell]

Of course methane is claimed to be a greenhouse gas.

Are you just here to contradict and argue the toss ?

[johndoe]

"Of course methane is claimed to be a greenhouse gas. "

claimed true in one aspect but it has no real bearing on global warming. methane has a rather meager lifetime of less than 10 years in the atmopshere. which means if we were to dump a trillion tonnes in the atmosphere tomorrow it would be gone pretty damn quick.

carbon dioxide of course doesn't do this because it is less reactive and so has a nasty habit of sticking around longer.

i really shouldn't have said it was a greenhouse gas........i meant that any icrease has a very limited effect.

[Mark Gobell]

As I said, you are a waste of time.

[johndoe]

oh now that's not a very clever thing to do now is it?

if you can't beat the argument then just ignore it?

how about you try and find anything that says methane doesn't get removed by the atmosphere in 10 years?

oh by the way you'll struggle.

but that no longer matters because you have decided the best option is to walk away. i would agree with you if i was in your position to.

[rodin]

[johndoe]

"The rate of change of Martıan temperature ıs much too rapıd to be fundamental"

you're stuck with this idea that it is linear. it's not. it will bounce as well.

less atmosphere = less icecap = more co2 = more atmopsphere. this gets stripped away = less atmosphere and around and around we go.

of course even this isn't a perfect pattern as all this will change depending on the milankovitch cycle.

and even with that calcualted you need to account for solar forcing too. and sun spots and various other stuff. it's a right pain in the ass. so how you managed to do it i'm not so sure...... care to tell us?

[Newspeak International]

Hi johndoe,
I note with interest your knowledge on the GW issue,would I be correct in the assumption that you are a scholar of this subject?


N

[rodin]

Hı John Doe

You don't seem to grasp what I am sayıng. Eıther that or you are a troll sent to muck up threads.

[Newspeak International]

[johndoe]

"Hi johndoe,
I note with interest your knowledge on the GW issue,would I be correct in the assumption that you are a scholar of this subject?"

not global warming specifically, but my area of study is the composition of the terrestrial planets (excluding mercury because it's very dull)

yeah so basically the structure and atmosphere of venus, earth and mars. global warming comes into it so i know as much as i need to.