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John White
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 Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| ConspiracyTheorySceptic wrote: | | Andrew Johnson wrote: |
I would like to state the obvious:
This is not a site which primarily focuses on WHETHER 9-11 was an inside job or not.
| catfish wrote: | I think you should leave this site and carry on with your happy life in this wonderful, honest, carefree world and don't let us trouble you anymore.
All the best xx |
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Dear Andrew Johnson
You really do betray your real nature - asking me to leave this site. Yours is the essential voice of the cultist. Cultists abhor dissenters. I am a dissenter. Therefore you patronise me and request that I leave.
I see no difference between the 9/11 cultists and the cultists of 1930s Italy and Germany - the fascists and nazis. They, too, were unwilling to enter into a debate. They, too, had a fixed agenda. But, I have to admit, they did more than request dissenters to leave. They either incarcerated them or put them up against a wall and shot them.
I do hope you have no malign intentions against me.
ConspiracyTheorySceptic |
Your a bad boy Conspiracy Theory Sceptic
I put a reply to yourself together yesterday evening, but regretably it got lost in a php time-out...it was a wise sagacious peice on not believing on first sight something we see in a conspiracy film and the importance of applying the same measure to mass media too, and also addressed the issue of "money making". However we shall have to move on
Youve mis-quoted Andrew there, the "leaving" comment was from member catfish: so Im a little skeptical about your ability to show disernment and hold comprehension of a thread with clarity. I fixed the html markers, so if you click on quote my post you will be able to see the copde and how it should be done: otherwise it looks like your are being deceptive, which Im sure your not
Its interesting what you comments about Nazi's reveal: they show your living with a deal of fear and concern about the world and dont want it to go to a bad place...perhaps there is a nigilling at the heart of your being that you cant explain, but wont go away, and your trying to rationalise?
Im not going to bother addressing you comment about "cults": theres nothing more individual, diverse and impossible to control than an association of truthseekers
But I will help you out with how to spot who might be a secret Nazi:
One can recognise a nazi regime primarily by having a dramatic event that shocks the nations awareness, such as burning down the Reichstag in 1933. This is then blamed on terrorists out to destroy the fatherland (or "homeland"), in the case of Germany this was of course communists. This provides the Nazi regime with the public aquiesance required to bring in sweeping new laws that remove democratic safeguards and give the state the power to do, basically, whatever the hell it likes. These powers arnt used much at first: instead they sit on the statute books...only the most extreme "terrorists" are disappeared from public view. Instead a mass programme of intelligence gathering is carried out (otherwise known as "domestic survaillance", or "spying")... then, after a period of five or six years, suddenly its WALLOP! booting down doors and stamping on faces, dawn raids armed swoops up and down the country, dragguing away (unfortunately, never to be seen again) of all those people who stood out from the majority. Not wanting to be one of those people of course the majority of the populace sit there and say "well, what can we do?" or even more infamously "If youve done nothing wrong youve nothing to hide". Once the "enemy within" (anyone who objects) have been removed, then the rest of the population are used to fight in and support expansionist military wars and world war breaks out across the planet. Many of these silent go-along-with-it types of course die as a result of the insanity
When all the dust has settled it is discovered that the communists never did burn down the reichstag in 1933 after all: instead, the Nazis did it themselves to scare the people and allow them to seize power. It didnt take many people to pull that off...just a dozen or so trusted men: to steal a country: and murder its future
Now (and forgive me if I indulge in just a tinge of sarcasm here)
If you see a government (*cough BUSH!*) behaving like that in the modern world, they are the ones to watch out for: and I certainly wouldnt let the fact that Prescott Bush was a major finanical backer of the Nazi regime, and who has been implicated in a plot to overthrough the US governemt in a coup in the late 30's on behalf of the US Nazi party in declassified documents (cos there was one) put you off: clearly the Bush boys go there own way and arnt strictly dominated by the needs for pre-eminance of "the family", or its adoration of Nazi philosophy
But of course, to understand that one needs to cease believing at first sight everything one sees on television...
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Andrew Johnson
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1919
Location: Derbyshire
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Hey CTS!
Thanks for the compliments. I have now been compared to
Fascists
The Yorkshire Ripper
The PTB
and been accused of working for Arabs too - I am working on building up a collection of these sorts of remarks - so thanks for adding to it for me!
I think people can see the game being played here and you remind me very much of a couple of other posters we have had on here!
Take care
Andrew
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ian neal
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 26 Jul 2005
Posts: 3140
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Some unanswered questions |
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| ConspiracyTheorySceptic wrote: | | ....That does not mean I believe we have been told everything that government knew, and they probably had some forewarning of the imminence of an attack. |
Presumably this is above and beyond what was acknowledged by the 9/11 Commission and that you would therefore support the need for this foreknowledge to investigated further openly and independently. If so, no doubt you will be signing our campaign petition?
In case you are not familiar with just how much foreknowledge there was, can I recommend this link
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq36.html
And no doubt you will be along shortly to back up with evidence your claims that we are some how comparable with nazis, fascists and cults |
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ConspiracyTheorySceptic
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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"Conspiracytheorysceptic, it is quite clear you are wasting your time coming onto this site as there is obviously nothing you disagree with as regards the official 9/11 story. Personally I'm not going to bother with you except to say that I have known David Icke for eighteen years and I know he ploughs back any money he makes into furthering his research and to getting his ideas across. He and his wife rent a modest flat and drive an old family saloon car. I believe your attacks on the others mentioned are equally unfounded. People out there researching and campaigning full time have to make a living somehow and I certainly don't begrudge them making a living wage out of selling DVDs and books. No doubt, if they were doing all this whilst claiming off the state, you would have something to say about that as well.
Please take your small mind elsewhere."
Andrew
Dear Andrew
Thankyou again for your reply.
Ok, so David Icke may well be sincere in his beliefs, but what you say about him merely underlines my contention that he, like others, is making a living from promoting his beliefs, however mad they may be. David Icke is generally considered to be not completely sane. Did he not suggest that the late Queen Mother was a lizard?
Insanity is not a charge one can lay at the feet of Dave vonKleist. One has only to view "In Plane Site" to see that he is a charlatan - or, at best, a comedian, having a good laugh at pulling the wool over people's eyes, and then laughing all the way to the bank as he rakes in the proceeds.
Yours, ever so small-mindedly.
CTS |
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ConspiracyTheorySceptic
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Andrew Johnson wrote:
I would like to state the obvious:
This is not a site which primarily focuses on WHETHER 9-11 was an inside job or not.
catfish wrote:
I think you should leave this site and carry on with your happy life in this wonderful, honest, carefree world and don't let us trouble you anymore.
All the best xx
Dear Andrew
Apologies for not checking carefully and attributing catfish's unsigned comment to yourself.
CTS |
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Andrew Johnson
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Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1919
Location: Derbyshire
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Dear Andrew
Thankyou again for your reply.
Ok, so David Icke may well be sincere in his beliefs, but what you say about him merely underlines my contention that he, like others, is making a living from promoting his beliefs, however mad they may be. David Icke is generally considered to be not completely sane. Did he not suggest that the late Queen Mother was a lizard? |
You are welcome to my reply. Whether David Icke said the Queen Mother was basically descended from some type of patagonian Newt, or that she was, in fact, part Polar Bear has nothing do with any of the statements I originally made.
Neither does the size of my mind nor your mind affect the acceleration due to gravity.
Thanks for understanding the thrust of my arguments and statements regarding irrefutable evidence based on multiple video recordings, witness statements and 300-year old laws of physics.
Yours Belligerently
Andrew
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Justin
9/11 Truth Organiser
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 500
Location: Cumbria / Yorkshire Dales
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject:
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CTS wrote
"Conspiracytheorysceptic, it is quite clear you are wasting your time coming onto this site as there is obviously nothing you disagree with as regards the official 9/11 story. Personally I'm not going to bother with you except to say that I have known David Icke for eighteen years and I know he ploughs back any money he makes into furthering his research and to getting his ideas across. He and his wife rent a modest flat and drive an old family saloon car. I believe your attacks on the others mentioned are equally unfounded. People out there researching and campaigning full time have to make a living somehow and I certainly don't begrudge them making a living wage out of selling DVDs and books. No doubt, if they were doing all this whilst claiming off the state, you would have something to say about that as well.
Please take your small mind elsewhere." |
CTS, you obviously don't read very accurately and take things in very easily - I wrote the above and as far as I am concerned your pathetic attempts to belittle people who are trying to get to the truth of things do you no favours. I'm not going to enter into a debate about David Icke's work because this is not the forum to do so. Your 100 per cent support of the official story concerning 9/11 tells me you have a very closed mind and I for one will not be wasting any more of my time with you.
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paul wright
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Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Sunny Bradford, Northern Lights
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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"But I find it impossible to believe that the US government allowed 9/11 to happen and to kill potentially tens of thousands of Americans, many of whom could have been their own relatives and friends.
Not even the CIA is that cynical and amoral. "
Oh yeah, now I remember how I lost the plot, and how no amount of evidence would ever shake CTS's position
Until you get over 'impossibilities' in your trained and socialised perception of the world, will you never start to perceive it how it is
As Rachel showed, even a bomb under your ass wont do it
Most people here have progressed past ordained impossibilities in this world, CTS
Hope this is a part of a rocky ride that gets you there too...eventually |
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John White
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, from what i read above CTS doesnt know his History and isnt interested in learning, and instead is casting around for cheap shots (about something else he doesnt understand)
Quite happy to leave the conversation there at my end unless he is up for engaging with what Ive put to him
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ConspiracyTheorySceptic
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Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 144
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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"Evidence free comparisons between 'us' and the thinking of the nazis is pure provocation."
Ian Neal
Dear Ian Neal
When I said:" I see no difference between the 9/11 cultists and the cultists of 1930s Italy and Germany - the fascists and nazis. They, too, were unwilling to enter into a debate", I was not implying that the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are no different from the fascists and nazis.
I have only been requested to leave this site because I am a dissenter. Fascists and nazis would have FORCED me to leave!!
However, I do believe that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are a cult, and that, as a cult, they do not like dissenters. I am a dissenter. If you believe that the claims made by the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are valid, then you have to convince a sceptic and dissenter like me.
I have read quite a lot of the theories put forward by 9/11 conspiracy theories. I have been unimpressed by the technical arguments put forward claiming the Twin Towers were brought down by the use of explosives; likewise for WT7. Or that Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon.
Do a Google-search and you will find many alternative explanations that explain the collapses without the need to postulate the use of explosives.
With so many alternative explanations on offer, do not jump to conclusions, but look for the simplest one that explains all the facts.
CTS |
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paul wright
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: |
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The simplest is always the government-issued theory
It'simple because the government says it's so
That's easy to accept because some of us voted for them
But if the government and their agencies and their backers are lying sobs?
Then what?They might construct sad stories to further their aims
Forget it CTS, they've completely succoured you |
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Garrett Cooke
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Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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CTS,
You are absolutely right. Occam’s razor rules. Given the evidence the simplest explanation is the one to choose. I challenge you to find simpler explanations than the ones below.
1) If three towers collapse with an acceleration commensurate with the acceleration due to gravity i.e. free fall, then the simplest explanation is that they were brought down by controlled demolition using pre-planted explosives.
2) If a building is attacked, and the remains of no large passenger plane are found in the immediate aftermath of the attack, then the simplest explanation is that no large passenger plane was involved in the attack.
3) If at the supposed crash site of a large passenger plane, and in the immediate aftermath of that supposed crash, no sign that a plane crashed there is seen, then the simplest explanation is that no plane crashed there.
Keep it simple.
Garrett |
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Dog
Minor Poster
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 90
Location: Terra Firma
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Hear,
Bloody Hear. |
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:52 pm Post subject: conspiracy theories |
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| ConspiracyTheorySceptic wrote: |
However, I do believe that 9/11 conspiracy theorists are a cult, and that, as a cult, they do not like dissenters. I am a dissenter. If you believe that the claims made by the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are valid, then you have to convince a sceptic and dissenter like me.
CTS |
The problem is partly the labelling. "Conspiracy theorist" is used as a pejorative term. I prefer "911 truth seeker" because we don't claim to know what happened, merely that the government account conflicts with the evidence therefore the government can't be telling the truth.
I believe that CTS will probably admit that there was indeed a conspiracy on the grounds that when two or more people plan to commit a crime, a "conspiracy" by definition exists. Anyone who has a theory about such a conspiracy is therefore by definition a "conspiracy theorist". CTS has a theory that the government account (itself by definition a conspiracy theory) is correct. Others find the evidence for alternative theories more compelling.
CTS if you wish to convince people that your conspiracy theory is correct you need to produce better evidence than vague generalisations such as your:
"I have read quite a lot of the theories put forward by 9/11 conspiracy theories. [sic] I have been unimpressed by the technical arguments put forward claiming the Twin Towers were brought down by the use of explosives; likewise for WT7. Or that Flight 77 did not crash into the Pentagon.
"Do a Google-search and you will find many alternative explanations that explain the collapses without the need to postulate the use of explosives.
"With so many alternative explanations on offer, do not jump to conclusions, but look for the simplest one that explains all the facts."
Give us compelling evidence, CTS, and people will accept your particular conspiracy theory.
One final point: cults have leaders, whereas truth-seekers are an anarchic bunch with no leaders and no official line to follow. I believe you are following the lead of the government, so who is closest to a cultist here?
Noel |
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Andrew Johnson
Mighty Poster
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1919
Location: Derbyshire
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| John White wrote: | Well, from what i read above CTS doesnt know his History and isnt interested in learning, and instead is casting around for cheap shots (about something else he doesnt understand)
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John, I think CTS knows exactly what he is doing.
I just wonder if he thinks that the law of gravity is a "fascist law". I suppose you can't really debate with it - so gravity is a fascist law. So we must live in a fascist world, ay?
Just a shame there seems to be such a blurring between 2 once distinct subjects - politics and physics. The best other instance I can remember of this was Galileo's house arrest.
Say no more.
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Andrew
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xmasdale
Angel - now passed away
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1959
Location: South London
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Some unanswered questions |
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| dh wrote: | | xmasdale wrote: | | dh wrote: |
I agree with Ian Crane's comments above for a start
Also that a disbelief that the US government could allow this to happen (nevermind make it happen - the actuality) is one of those big stumbling blocks
This assumes a common humanity between us and those in control - that they have the same feelings, needs desires that we all have, and an interest in the common good
Nothing could be further from the truth. Those in control have only a self-interest agenda
They and to some extent their front public figures, Blair, Bush and the like, regard themselves as ubermensch, far above us , the common herd, the chattel, the cattle - cullable at will
That's why they can brazenly kill thousands of our own, tens of thousands of others out there, without a blink. How they can stand up to the storm of protest, derision, hatred, anger, from us, the common people, with barely a blink of their eyelids.
They are not human as we understand it, with feelings and empathy for others
They are supremely self-confident, assured of the righteousness of their own goals, willing to flaunt the stupidity of the mass of people in their own faces. They don't have a moments self-doubt and feed off an atmosphere of fear, hatred, death and blood. Their lifeline is the artificially-created charnelhouse of stimulated conflict, and as the vibrational frequencies of the world attenuate and amplify , so must they extend their activties |
Sorry Paul, but I find this denial of our common humanity extremely dangerous. It is conjecture and almost racist. We are all capable of goodness and of evil. The temptation to do evil for personal gain (normally power, wealth, or prestige) is open to all humans at all times and always has been. But as well as always being corruptible we are also all redeemable, though the more we get locked in to evil fraternities (Skull & Bones and the like) the more pressure we may be under to support evil acts.
I am aware of the racist argument that David Icke and others use that the most powerful evil people in the world are a race apart descended from extraterrestrial reptiles, but since I have not been able to find any more convincing argument for it than what purports to be translations of ancient Babylonian texts, I think the only fair way of regarding these assertions is to keep an open mind until more convincing evidence emerges. I have not seen any evidence of this which is likely to convince Joe Public.
Once we write people off as being non-human (untermenchen) we create reasons for treating them inhumanely. In times of war this is a common phenomenon. I had relatives who were wickedly treated in Japanese internment camps, but in the Japanese mind this was justified by the fact that they had dishonourably surrendered rather than fought to the death or committed suicide. They were therefore sub-human. British colonialism was based on regarding other people as sub human as obviously was the Nazi nonsense. I believe that an assumption of a non-human race pulling the strings tends to encourage us to fall into a similar trap.
To me the inference that there is a global old boys' network of the super rich is sufficient to explain the phenomenon of false flag operations designed to initiate war is sufficient to explain what is going on and is much more credible in the minds of Joe Public.
| dh wrote: |
The scenarios are there - the avian flu pandemic, the economic collapse, the global radioactive plume from attacking Iran's nuclear facilities, the dirty bomb in US cities
The jackbooted ski-masked police are waiting in the wings to round up and corral the property deprived masses
People don't get that unless they get the first key to the door that 911 opens, and understand the antecedents and consequences of that
And that's clicking on lights, waking up, illumination, the same game those guys seek to own and control |
I agree with you that 911 is a key to awakening people to what is going on. But just as there are evil/criminal gangs doing their bit towards creating a global fascist state, so are there networks of good people trying to prevent this from happening.
Noel |
"Sorry Paul, but I find this denial of our common humanity extremely dangerous. It is conjecture and almost racist. We are all capable of goodness and of evil."
You're the last person I'd have thought on here to make a comment that I find offensive. Well, I don't actually, but if I were a more sensitive soul, I might well do
I was actually trying to make a point or two, though it turned into a bit of a rant as these things do.
The point I originally started off with was that people who are stuck with the idea that governments or intelligence agencies can't possibly be involved with staged terrorism against their own people, well, in my experience, if they're stuck in that mindset, they are hardly worth trying to engage. Logical argument and evidence will only serve to entrench their position, and I for one always try to avoid code like 'false flag operation', which will only provide them with the ammunition that you are talking insider nutter coded language
It's probably better even to be mildly irritant, because that will stir the feelings, and if you keep it fairly mild, there's a chance that behind their defensive reactions, some seeds of doubt may grow. You know, understanding this stuff is not essentially intellectual or clever, as they'll always accuse us of trying to be , but of seeing things as they are with an open heart and mind
So I'm sorry, Noel, that you should appear to accuse me of being 'almost racist'. It was a misdirection on my part, using the term 'ubermensch', regarding their view of themselves, so let's put it in English - Supermen - with all the attributes I ascribed them
Let's consider for just a moment at that clip of George Bush taking the piss out of the failure to find WMD's in Iraq, the causus belli, - Are the WMD over there? Nope. Maybe under here. Nope
Does it take a conspiracy theorist to question the humour displayed here - like 100,000 dead, US troops dead, UK troops dead, DU spreading round the world,Abu Ghraib, false flag !!!!! operations in Iraq ramping up the violence and chaos. And the guy finds it a joke. And if I question this puppet's human qualities as defined by shared human values, and declare him other than human, because he couldn't give a * toss about what happens to countless numbers of people, and I assume he's anglosaxon like myself, and yet if I describe him as not genuinely human, I'm a racist?
No, these people and the people behind them have very strong inhuman qualities. They simply don't care and will let nothing stand in their way, and appear to thrive on death. Look at some of the older movers and shakers who seem to be unchanged in their appearance or activity for the last few decades
All I'm saying is they are confidant and above the general human concerns
You quote untermensch and that's us for them, clearly subhuman in their terms, and yes plutocrats they are, and I would contend only enriched by their supreme self confidence and lack of regard for human qualities- us -animals - pawns to be used for geopolitical strategy as someone once said
And yet I'm saying stuff that is almost racist???
* off |
I'm sorry. No offence was intended. Perhaps I did misunderstand you somewhat, but not in the way that Ian Neal thought I had. But I did tend to conflate the point that you were putting forward with the theory of David Icke's: that the global elite (illuminati) are genetically not fully human but descended from an extraterrestrial race of reptiles. That is what I consider a racist theory. I consider it dangerous to adopt that theory because it seems to classify as genetically non-human, those who would think themselves as racially superior to the generality of humanity (most of it indeed non-white, Ian). I am not prepared to classify others as non-human, just because David Icke says they are. If they are genuinely not fully human from birth, I want better evidence of this.
I was brought up in a somewhat classy family and exposed as a kid to all sorts of unconsciously racist attitudes. EG:
"The Egyptians have nationalised the Suez Canal! How absurd! They'll never be able to operate it. It'll silt up!"
My aunt would not allow her gardener to smoke in the main garden, only in the kitchen garden.
You get the picture?
But maybe I misunderstand what David Icke is saying. I'm going to his talk at Brixton Academy on Saturday so I shall be interested to hear what he has to say about this issue. I mean to keep an open mind about him, particularly since friends of mine speak warmly of him, most notably Justin of this forum. But I am disturbed by this "race of non-human illuminati" issue.
As for racism. I more or less take it as given that overcoming racist attitudes is a process within everyone. It certainly has been in my life. Now that I have been living for decades with my partner who is descended from African slaves the whole issue of racism, imperialism, the British Empire etc is very close to my heart. My own dissident attitudes resulted in a rift from my family, so much so that since my parents died I now no longer have contact with any member of my family. I'm sad about that.
This comment of yours I have particular problems with:
"They are not human as we understand it, with feelings and empathy for others
They are supremely self-confident, assured of the righteousness of their own goals, willing to flaunt the stupidity of the mass of people in their own faces. They don't have a moments self-doubt and feed off an atmosphere of fear, hatred, death and blood. Their lifeline is the artificially-created charnelhouse of stimulated conflict, and as the vibrational frequencies of the world attenuate and amplify , so must they extend their activties."
How do you know they don't have moments of self-doubt? If they are not genetically a race apart, they would share something of the same spark that lies at the centre of all our being. Quakers call it "that of God in everyone", but perhaps you would prefer "that of good in everyone". I can well understand that this basic internal potential for goodness has become smothered by the bad stuff in them, but I would need good evidence to conclude that they were not genetically human from birth and therefore, perhaps, not redeemable.
Noel |
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paul wright
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Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 2650
Location: Sunny Bradford, Northern Lights
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| Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry Noel
From their deeds shall ye know them
Their deeds are outrageous and countenance no redemption
They and their servants could obviously not give a toss about the sanctity of human life
Its there and they poison every aspect of human life and endeavour
They are different, whether through bloodline or initiation I don't know
I accept we've all got a part of them, I cant tell my fantasies and dreams, and you know I played out in fantasy all their sick reality in my head during my teen years and after and still now, as much as they've got a part of us
But while we do the humdrum, even if that's whipping up our unconscious fellows, who are continuously kept in the constructed dreamworld by the constant sacral stimulation, oh yeah, they are deadly sick pedophiles and mass killers willing to put it out there. A nearly related but quite different species They rule us, but it's with our consent
You and I could not do what these b****** do because it's not in us
We know what they've got because we share the same basic brain structures. The overlay is different and we cannot follow the same path |
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