"sacrifice freedom to protect our freedom" - uh?

[marky 54]

ive been around a few forums browsing through peoples thoughts on what they think about things, regardless of if the think any conspiracys are happening or have happened and evidence they put forward etc and ive read some very shocking statements.

they go along the lines of "we need to sacrifice freedoms to protect our freedom"

"i dont care about all the cctv camera's etc ive got nothing to hide" (ever heard of privacy came to mind)

i could make a list and go on and on, but just wanted to say im very worried about how bad the problems are getting and how people think, it dosnt look good if thats the mindset of the uk population especially when it comes to our freedoms and rights.

how can people be so dumb

[Louise]

Hi Marky 54,

You know a long time ago i thought that the goverments were going to turn society into something like 1984 by George Orwell.

But the people would not stand for that if you tried to do it too quickly to them, so they would have to do it bit by bit, little by little this is so that the people would not realise what is happening to them untill it is too late and what has been done cannot be reversed.

In fact i think it's getting worse than 1984 as i am informed that in 1984, only the party members were watched and observed.

The ordinary people were left alone, not so in todays society.

I'm surprised that they haven't suggested putting CCTV in peoples homes yet.

They could use the excuse that house break ins are on the rise and they are doing this for the security of the people.

I wouldn't be that hard to do, like maybe installing a little camera into peoples TV sets perhaps and not telling people.

OOOPS!, i haven't just given them an idea have i?.

[rodin]

You flag up an important point. The people are comfortable with the way things are right now. They are being corralled. The switch from so-called freedom to overt fascism will be thrown suddenly and those unprepared caught in a trap. Most will not even see that it is a trap until it is far too late.

[karlos]

Home cctv alot of people already have it.
But remember almost every shop, pub, and office also has it.
Not counting parking cameras, red route cameras, bus lane cameras etc.
The UK is already the most heavily monitor country.
Which further explains why 7/7 london underground bombs ABSOLUTELY NO CCTV IMAGES means it was a false flag

The UK is already one of the most controlled societies. But facist state is only a few years away.
David Cameron is like Tony Blair v2.0

[Louise]

Personally i think that there should be a whole new party be elected in parliment.

Not labour, Not Conservative but a whole new party that is going to have the peoples best intrest at heart NOT it's own.

After all the goverment is put there BY the people FOR the people and to just act as a representative of the people.

It should do what the people want done, to acheive this every major decision and law would have to be put out to referendum so that the people could decide what they want.

I don't think that doing this would be a sign of a weak goverment unable to make decisions for itself.

I think it would be a sign of establishing a true democracy in this country.

However i have told by someone that has been involved in goverment on a local level that once you get into it, you discover all the benefits and privaliges you get as being in that position, then you quickly forget that you are there to serve the people and end up not caring about the people.

Me and my dad have thought up a name for this tottaly new party it is called PAP or the: Peoples Alternative Party.

[flamesong]

[Louise]

Hi flamesong,

Yes indiviauals could be elected as well as partys, i guess i said a party because i'm so used to only partys being elected in parliment.

Just so long as whoever or whatever party is elected understands that they are there to serve in the peoples best intrest and nothing else.

This would be rule number one, and if they do anything to the contry they (the individual or the party) could be removed and someone else put in their place.

[rodin]

Any party will surely end up supporting the pyramid structure eventually. It is built into the system. A non-pyramid system is the only way the people of earth can take control of their planet, or the citizens of a region take control of their home.

Smart business are realising the benefit in eliminating 'chain of command' and instead connecting their intellectual firepower from the quaintly-named 'shop floor' to so called higher management. Similarly a global neural network should be the decider of course for planet earth, not a hierarchichal group.

The root of all (organised) evil is hierarchy. Freemasonry, organised ritualistic religions, governments. Anywhere monopoly power (or near-monopoly power) exists there is tyrrany. The globalists want to combine all monopolies into one supermonopoly. Already their monopolies (government, big businesses etc) are interwoven.

Fascism = government owned by business
Communism = business owned by government

Both are leading to the same end. State monoploy. Soclialism is just a blend of communism and fascism (with a friendly face). Think Sun Tzu

Factor in a single ruthless group taking over all states. Whoever they are.

Global monopoly.

Everyone has the capacity to make mistakes, to be illogical, emotional (not always a bad thing), unreasonable etc. Some have a bias towards evil. Ruthlessness is rewarded by present system, and powerful people tend towards it. Any 'power structure' will become dominated by ruthless people. Therefore power must truly be devolved.

This will not eliminate evil, but it will disperse it. Decisions taken en masse by informed inhabitants of earth will almost certainly (IMO) eventually lead to the following

1) Husbandry of resources
2) Absence of warfare
3) A code of human rights
4) Minimal taxation
5) A gradual equalisation of standard of living across the planet
6) Healthier minds and bodies
7) A healthier planet
Fair play

The internet allows all issues to be discussed and internet voting on issues could guide policy. The cost of mistakes will be apparent to voters, and they will learn what works and what doesn't.

We need a global republic made up of regional units with autonomy in local issues, not a global superstate.

Let us consider for example the debate on global warming and what action should be taken to combat it if any. On this issue all the world would be presented with facts, analyses and proposals, including costs. The cost of implementing any action would be borne globally. Spin, like the ideas of CO2 warming Gore's book, would have to stand next to the information about solar warming and the CO2 being released from the oceans as they warm.

What would the global solution be?

After all the facts are weighed, voting would take place to decide. Since we were all a part of the process, we would more readily accept its judgement. Of course, provision will be made for a change of policy should the people want it, such as in the case of the policies not working properly etc.

I would advocate we simply ignore global warming and concentrate on eliminating pollution and resource husbandry. Attacking CO2 is IMO the wrong target. I would present cogent arguments, including the fact that it would not penalise consumers so much as producers who are responsible for messing up the planet. I would let nature take care of CO2, and would instead take care of nature. Maximise vegetation. Let rain forests regenerate etc.

If my ideas were silly, the internet would show them up. If they were sensible, they would be supported.

Right now the world is governed assymetrically by a small inbred group who think they know better. They do not trust us. They think we are inferior. They are elitist.

I am a meritocrat. I think ability should be translated into influence by consent. The elite simply think they are right, plus they have vested interest in protecting their assymetric wealth and power. All hierarchical power structures are elitist. This is why they are preferred by those in power.

My ideas may be idealistic, simplistic, etc. They need a lot of refining. But they are not altruistic, ie not based on wishful thinking. I understand that people act in self interest. All we need is to show we are all connected, in fact GET us all connnected, and we will take care of ourselves and our planet.

The alternative is the Global monopoly.

Technology has now advanced to the point where a few people can enslave us all, or we can break free from millenia of control.

[flamesong]

MP's, once elected, seem to represent the party to which they belong - not the people who elected them.

Democracy, along with freedom, is a of a pair of sacred cows which is used to perpetrate tyranny. The concept that democracy is some kind of gold standard by which all society is measured is a smoke screen. And America (which likes to boast of being the world's oldest democracy) is the biggest charade of all.

I'm sorry for repeating myself (I have been making this point elsewhere) but NONE of the members of the US government have been elected by the US population. I don't mean that they have gained their position in government via some questionable election (or two). I mean that no member of the US 'electorate' has ever voted for or against them. They are all appointed by whoever has been appointed president (no, they don't actually vote for him, either).

Throw into this stew the Pepsi/Coke paradigm of the Democrats and Republicans, the involvements of huge corporations, the mass hypnomedia, secret societies and weakness of human nature and the idea that there is any such thing as democracy disappears in a puff of smoke.

That isn't to say that democracy in its purest form isn't more than a respectable name for mob rule. It could also be argued that democracy is a convenient way for individuals to surrender responsibility - amply illustrated by the war-waverers who, statistics show, stopped opposing the war in (against?) Iraq as soon as it kicked off.

And let's be honest, most people don't give a shít, they are junk junkies - spending their money on garbage just to keep the faux economy ticking over.

[John White]

[Leiff]

[Newspeak International]

[Chaos Warrior]

Excellent comments.
My take on the ID issue is simply that being forced to carry an ID card presupposes that every citizen of a country has to be accountable for everything we choose to do or be to government. It should actually be the other way around, government should be accountable to the people.
There's no way on Earth that I would trust either Bliar and his cronies or any other government with my personal details on one of their databases...these databases are not and most like never will be secure.
It's simply a question of privacy.
We are all born with that right....and who doesn't have something to hide?
An old maxim...the heart cherishes secrets not worth the telling.
This is as true today as it ever was. The point is that they are OUR secrets..our private and personal wishes and hopes.

Flamesong said

[flamesong]

Maybe this is just for you, Chaos Warrior.

I saw the T-shirt last Summer on a stall at an event called The Big Tent in Fife. They only had small ones so I asked if they had a website. Somebody scribbled it down on a piece of paper which I haven't seen since. Until a few minutes ago:

http://www.menmuir.org.uk/sunrise

It's a bit of an odd site layout but you will find Guy on this page:

http://www.menmuir.org.uk/sunrise/cat/page5.htm - low res

http://www.menmuir.org.uk/sunrise/cathigh/page105.htm - high res

100% organic cotton and hemp.

[festival of snickers]

cameras at malls -i dont care much

malls or street -whats the differnece?

[xmasdale]

[quote="Leiff"]

[flamesong]

Link

[telecasterisation]

[rodin]

[flamesong]

[rodin]

CCTV - The state cannot observe us all at once. Divide and rule has been their MO. If we wake up en masse we can prevail. It may be that their tyranny will be forced into the open as the population becomes restless. If so, some freemasons will probably back up a war on the common people - the 'profane goyim' as they call us unenlightened beings. They have wonderful ways of killing and disabling...

But remember what Gimli said..

[festival of snickers]

whats the difference if theres cameras or you have cops all over watching people? you dont want any cops?

if the act is on camera it also is used to free suspects that would otherwise be accused of something they are innocent of ,wouldnt it?

oh so dont collect dna samples even though dna is used to free many innocent people??!!

drivers licenses were used for years but i guess a chip that can listen does seem weird as the cellphones are weird if they can heare your whole life if they want to -it is a violation of privacy probably

[rodin]

[festival of snickers]

if jerk assaulted me id want it on camera

i read 1984

i dont beleive in cameras in homes

[telecasterisation]

Okay, as suggested I have been out and purchased 18,000 tins of Tesco own brand baked beans and the front door is nailed shut.

Having consumed two tins of baked beans, the wife now wants to leave for some unknown reason.

This just isn't going to work.

[Ravenmoon]

Facial recognition on ID cards & cctv everywhere you are in public, do the maths

[bgmark2]

Yes but it can stretch too far...such as left wing government protestors being labeled enimies of the state and communists as has been done in the past

[Bongo]

From todays BBC news...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6673579.stm

... I guess there may still be a few good cops left?

[Divex]

The cameras only work when the state needs them to.Any time ur assaulted or robbed they seem to have problems or just wernt turned on !

[Dogsmilk]